[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
Per your thoughtful post below, see my post earlier today on teacher as doorway to the infinite. Just as a question, is it *possible* that what you and others feel when they feel the presence of a dead guru is the presence of *infinity*, and not the finite form of it that they associate with the teacher? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -bdlow: Vaj says Ramana is dead and the neo-Advaitins have created a type of pseudo-religion. Vaj, for once, I agree with most of your statements; and in corroboration, I will offer up a profound statement of Adi Da: Dead Gurus don't kick ass. (an interesting twist on the elder Bush's famous statement). The real question, though, is...: is the statement TRUE? No. Don't have time to go into this in detail, except to say that I've had two extremely powerful inner plane experiences with Ramana; and in support of an opposing viewpoint, much circumstantial evidence points to his being MORE powerful being dead than prior to his physical death in 1950. For example, in the tape Sage of Arunachala, the very last few frames, people are shown leaving Sri Ramanasramam in 1950 after he died. Then the narrator continues by saying that after a brief period had elapsed, people realized that his Presence was not only undiminished, but rather, He (and associated murtis like the Arunachala Hill and the Temple); became MORE powerful with time. The growing numbers of Neo-Advaitins tend to magnify his power, even though only a few of them are still devoted to Ramana. To conclude, Ramana is FAR more powerful than most living Gurus, say Chogyal Namkhai Rinpoche. Also, Guru Dev (SBS) still lives every time a puja is done. His Shakti is probably far more powerful now than in 1957. -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Mar 16, 2007, at 2:05 PM, qntmpkt wrote: --I doubt that you'll be able to collect any dirt on Ramana Maharshi. He's impeccable as to moral standardsin the same category as Guru Dev. The only dirt on Ramana is that HE IS DIRT. He's dead. Long gone. My impression of Ramana (having watched his DVD) is that he was an average yogi with a semi-extraordinary life who just happened to awaken at a time when communication systems allowed him to jump to worldwide notoriety. Don't get me wrong, I like Ramana, but in the larger picture he was just a realizer showing up at the right place at the right time. There were hundreds or thousands of realizers we never, ever heard about. He had good interdependent supporting factors. Sadly now his legacy is used support various neo-advaitins. The only with problem Ramana and other dead advaitins is how they are misappropriated by current sadhakas as rationales for their own look at me, I'm enlightened schemes. Not that that was ever anything Ramana supported, but 'dead Ramana' plays poster boy for alotta Pseudo-advaitins who are hangin'out their satsang shingle at Ramana's expense. It's like this poor guy's corpse is hauled out every now and then when someone wants to use him.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tanhlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --Vaj, you're attempting to divert attention from the real by creating strawmen and bringing up practically unattainable goals. For one thing, Gurus who have attained a Rainbow Light Body are exceedingly rare, and I challenge you to bring up instances in which they regularly appear in people's dreams. OTOH, countless people have experienced the Shakti of MMY, SBS, and Ramana Maharshi. Again, just playing Deva's Advocate here, is it possible that what these countless numbers of people experienced was simple infinity, without form, and they *interpreted* it in the form of the teacher they were most familiar with?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tanhlnx tanhlnx@ wrote: --Vaj, you're attempting to divert attention from the real by creating strawmen and bringing up practically unattainable goals. For one thing, Gurus who have attained a Rainbow Light Body are exceedingly rare, and I challenge you to bring up instances in which they regularly appear in people's dreams. OTOH, countless people have experienced the Shakti of MMY, SBS, and Ramana Maharshi. Again, just playing Deva's Advocate here, is it possible that what these countless numbers of people experienced was simple infinity, without form, and they *interpreted* it in the form of the teacher they were most familiar with? Why are you assuming people are always at the mercy of their subconscious filters? Its a perspective you take a lot.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tanhlnx tanhlnx@ wrote: --Vaj, you're attempting to divert attention from the real by creating strawmen and bringing up practically unattainable goals. For one thing, Gurus who have attained a Rainbow Light Body are exceedingly rare, and I challenge you to bring up instances in which they regularly appear in people's dreams. OTOH, countless people have experienced the Shakti of MMY, SBS, and Ramana Maharshi. Again, just playing Deva's Advocate here, is it possible that what these countless numbers of people experienced was simple infinity, without form, and they *interpreted* it in the form of the teacher they were most familiar with? Why are you assuming people are always at the mercy of their subconscious filters? Its a perspective you take a lot. Uh, possibly because I have never met an individual on this planet, *including* the ones I suspect of being enlightened, who did *not* have their filters firmly in place. It's just part of living.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tanhlnx tanhlnx@ wrote: --Vaj, you're attempting to divert attention from the real by creating strawmen and bringing up practically unattainable goals. For one thing, Gurus who have attained a Rainbow Light Body are exceedingly rare, and I challenge you to bring up instances in which they regularly appear in people's dreams. OTOH, countless people have experienced the Shakti of MMY, SBS, and Ramana Maharshi. Again, just playing Deva's Advocate here, is it possible that what these countless numbers of people experienced was simple infinity, without form, and they *interpreted* it in the form of the teacher they were most familiar with? Why are you assuming people are always at the mercy of their subconscious filters? Its a perspective you take a lot. Uh, possibly because I have never met an individual on this planet, *including* the ones I suspect of being enlightened, who did *not* have their filters firmly in place. It's just part of living. Granted, though it sounds to me as if you are insinuating that people seeing Masters appearing to them are somehow indulging in wishful thinking.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tanhlnx tanhlnx@ wrote: --Vaj, you're attempting to divert attention from the real by creating strawmen and bringing up practically unattainable goals. For one thing, Gurus who have attained a Rainbow Light Body are exceedingly rare, and I challenge you to bring up instances in which they regularly appear in people's dreams. OTOH, countless people have experienced the Shakti of MMY, SBS, and Ramana Maharshi. Again, just playing Deva's Advocate here, is it possible that what these countless numbers of people experienced was simple infinity, without form, and they *interpreted* it in the form of the teacher they were most familiar with? Why are you assuming people are always at the mercy of their subconscious filters? Its a perspective you take a lot. Uh, possibly because I have never met an individual on this planet, *including* the ones I suspect of being enlightened, who did *not* have their filters firmly in place. It's just part of living. Granted, though it sounds to me as if you are insinuating that people seeing Masters appearing to them are somehow indulging in wishful thinking. Or they have an interesting completely abstract experience and, unable to cope with just having had a *completely* abstract experience, convert it to a more structured, finite experience in their minds, to easier get a handle on it. I'm just saying that it's a possibility, one that seems far more likely to me than the Master actually appearing.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tanhlnx tanhlnx@ wrote: --Vaj, you're attempting to divert attention from the real by creating strawmen and bringing up practically unattainable goals. For one thing, Gurus who have attained a Rainbow Light Body are exceedingly rare, and I challenge you to bring up instances in which they regularly appear in people's dreams. OTOH, countless people have experienced the Shakti of MMY, SBS, and Ramana Maharshi. Again, just playing Deva's Advocate here, is it possible that what these countless numbers of people experienced was simple infinity, without form, and they *interpreted* it in the form of the teacher they were most familiar with? Why are you assuming people are always at the mercy of their subconscious filters? Its a perspective you take a lot. Uh, possibly because I have never met an individual on this planet, *including* the ones I suspect of being enlightened, who did *not* have their filters firmly in place. It's just part of living. Granted, though it sounds to me as if you are insinuating that people seeing Masters appearing to them are somehow indulging in wishful thinking. Or they have an interesting completely abstract experience and, unable to cope with just having had a *completely* abstract experience, convert it to a more structured, finite experience in their minds, to easier get a handle on it. I'm just saying that it's a possibility, one that seems far more likely to me than the Master actually appearing. I'd agree with you, except that all the accounts of this I have read about happen as a complete and total surprise, not leaving time for any conversion- the experience itself being mind blowing enough as it is. Were it a completely abstract experience it would be easier to integrate vs a Master appearing in form in front of you. Also just to clarify, when I use Master it means master of reality, not master over me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tanhlnx tanhlnx@ wrote: --Vaj, you're attempting to divert attention from the real by creating strawmen and bringing up practically unattainable goals. For one thing, Gurus who have attained a Rainbow Light Body are exceedingly rare, and I challenge you to bring up instances in which they regularly appear in people's dreams. OTOH, countless people have experienced the Shakti of MMY, SBS, and Ramana Maharshi. Again, just playing Deva's Advocate here, is it possible that what these countless numbers of people experienced was simple infinity, without form, and they *interpreted* it in the form of the teacher they were most familiar with? Why are you assuming people are always at the mercy of their subconscious filters? Its a perspective you take a lot. Uh, possibly because I have never met an individual on this planet, *including* the ones I suspect of being enlightened, who did *not* have their filters firmly in place. It's just part of living. I mean, in MMY's SCI he makes it clear that enlightened folks are a product of their culture and interpret their enlightenment in terms of that culture. Doesn't sound like they rise above their filters. And of course, from what we know of the human nervous system, how could they? Pure Consciousness or Self may not have filers, but it is still a living nervous system that acts.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -bdlow: Vaj says Ramana is dead and the neo-Advaitins have created a type of pseudo-religion. Vaj, for once, I agree with most of your statements; and in corroboration, I will offer up a profound statement of Adi Da: Dead Gurus don't kick ass. (an interesting twist on the elder Bush's famous statement). The real question, though, is...: is the statement TRUE? No. Don't have time to go into this in detail, except to say that I've had two extremely powerful inner plane experiences with Ramana; and in support of an opposing viewpoint, much circumstantial evidence points to his being MORE powerful being dead than prior to his physical death in 1950. For example, in the tape Sage of Arunachala, the very last few frames, people are shown leaving Sri Ramanasramam in 1950 after he died. Then the narrator continues by saying that after a brief period had elapsed, people realized that his Presence was not only undiminished, but rather, He (and associated murtis like the Arunachala Hill and the Temple); became MORE powerful with time. The growing numbers of Neo-Advaitins tend to magnify his power, even though only a few of them are still devoted to Ramana. To conclude, Ramana is FAR more powerful than most living Gurus, say Chogyal Namkhai Rinpoche. Also, Guru Dev (SBS) still lives every time a puja is done. His Shakti is probably far more powerful now than in 1957. Good points.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Can dead Gurus kick ass?
--Vaj, you're attempting to divert attention from the real by creating strawmen and bringing up practically unattainable goals. For one thing, Gurus who have attained a Rainbow Light Body are exceedingly rare, and I challenge you to bring up instances in which they regularly appear in people's dreams. OTOH, countless people have experienced the Shakti of MMY, SBS, and Ramana Maharshi. True, SBS and RM didn't attain Rainbow Light bodies, but we accept the benefits given to us, in whatever form is most appropriate for time and circumstance. Fine, if you want to restrict your devotion to Rainbow Gurus, you may have to wait a long time. It's highly unlikely your own Guru Chogyal Namkhai Rinpoche will acquire one. He will rot in the grave like the others. - In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 16, 2007, at 7:36 PM, matrixmonitor wrote: -bdlow: Vaj says Ramana is dead and the neo-Advaitins have created a type of pseudo-religion. Vaj, for once, I agree with most of your statements; and in corroboration, I will offer up a profound statement of Adi Da: Dead Gurus don't kick ass. (an interesting twist on the elder Bush's famous statement). The real question, though, is...: is the statement TRUE? Depends on the guru and the style of realization they had. Most advaitin realizers will transfer to one of the Brahma-lokas on death of the physical body. The downside of course: they're still in samsara, just a much nicer place than kali-yuga Earth. Even if they happen to make it farther into Arupadhatu, or the formless world, they're still on the wheel. Do these type of beings visit dreamers on Earth? This is the question we need to honestly ask ourselves. No. Don't have time to go into this in detail, except to say that I've had two extremely powerful inner plane experiences with Ramana; and in support of an opposing viewpoint, much circumstantial evidence points to his being MORE powerful being dead than prior to his physical death in 1950. Of course, that depends on whether or not your dream image of Ramana IS Ramana in some dream guise or whether or not it is a karmic fabrication of Ramana from your own karmic traces: a karmic dream vs. a real dream of clarity. Did you know anything of Ramana before he appeared in your dream? It all boils down to whether or not we have the spiritual maturity to discriminate between a karmic dream fabricated from our own traces or from an actual samadhic dream. And of course if it appeared in a dream and was something we liked, we naturally want to assume it is something real (Ramana visitng us). But *was* it? For example, in the tape Sage of Arunachala, the very last few frames, people are shown leaving Sri Ramanasramam in 1950 after he died. Then the narrator continues by saying that after a brief period had elapsed, people realized that his Presence was not only undiminished, but rather, He (and associated murtis like the Arunachala Hill and the Temple); became MORE powerful with time. The growing numbers of Neo-Advaitins tend to magnify his power, even though only a few of them are still devoted to Ramana. To conclude, Ramana is FAR more powerful than most living Gurus, say Chogyal Namkhai Rinpoche. Also, Guru Dev (SBS) still lives every time a puja is done. His Shakti is probably far more powerful now than in 1957. Is it guru Dev (or Ramana) or is it merely the morphogenetic field, the standing wave left behind? And what is the difference? In general the only types of realizers that you are likely to have authentic contact with are Light Body realizers IMO. In such a case, all you have to ask is did they leave a carcass behind? If the answer is yes, then you might want to consider what it is that was in your dream. .02 USD
