[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Comment below: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > > wrote: > > > Linda Greenhouse is one of the journalists at the NY Times who covers > > > the Supreme Court. My civil procedure professor recommended that I > > > read everything that she writes; she has a very clear and deep insight > > > into the Court and she's an excellent writer, too. > > > > What do you think of Chicago Tribune reporter Jan Crawford Greenburg > > who often appears on PBS NewsHour (Jim Lehr) -- as does Linda > > Greenhouse -- to comment on supreme and appelate court issues. > > > **END** > > Don't watch any television so I can't comment. Do she and Linda G. do > a point/counterpoint thing or just regular, informed dialogue? From > the little I've seen of Lehr I'd expect the latter. What's your > opinion of her and of Greenhouse? I usually find the Jan Crawford Greenburg interviews intriging and absorbing. I sometimes zone out when I listen to Linda Greenhouse. But I am not a lawyer -- I was just curious of a lawyer's views on the two. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonybliss_ff > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Correction! > > > > No one is *compelled* to participate in "The Enlightened > > > > Sentencing Program" developed ny Farrokh. It's an option made > > > > available, and accepted by the *choice* of the participant > after > > > they > > > > learn what the program entails. They take *responsibility* for > their > > > > *choice* and their own lives. > > > > > > > > The stories of the participants--in their own words--which you > can > > > > find on the TESP web site can be quite moving. > > > > > > > > The whole civil liberties question has already been dealt with > on > > > this > > > > issue, I believe, even more so with the program no longer being > > > > associated with the TM movement. > > > > > > > > > > And only because Farokh is every bit as arrogant in his own way > as > > > the rest of the TMO. I'm pretty sure that he could have gotten > David > > > Lynch to pay the bill for anyone sentenced to practice TM, but > its > > > doubtful that he even considered trying. > > > > > > So now there's a schism where there didn't need to be one because > > > someone was too proud to ask someone else for funding. > > > > > > > There is a schism because the TMO does not really want the TM > > Technique taught here. Nothing complicated, more emphasis on money > > than meditators, otherwise they would adjust the price for > prisioners. > > > > > > Why adjust their price for prisoners when there are people willing to > foot the bill at the current price? > Good will, responsible service to society? God? ...no schism necessary JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I wonder if he was ever initiated? With that type of background and > leanings, and after studying the case and hearing arguments, the > idea of learning to meditate might have been pretty tempting. Dunno, it's not mentioned in the oral history interview. FWIW, I found a Supreme Court history page that discusses Stevens's nomination by Gerald Ford at some length. Ford's choice coming down to the wire was between Stevens and Adams. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonybliss_ff > > wrote: > > > > > > Correction! > > > No one is *compelled* to participate in "The Enlightened > > > Sentencing Program" developed ny Farrokh. It's an option made > > > available, and accepted by the *choice* of the participant after > > they > > > learn what the program entails. They take *responsibility* for their > > > *choice* and their own lives. > > > > > > The stories of the participants--in their own words--which you can > > > find on the TESP web site can be quite moving. > > > > > > The whole civil liberties question has already been dealt with on > > this > > > issue, I believe, even more so with the program no longer being > > > associated with the TM movement. > > > > > > > And only because Farokh is every bit as arrogant in his own way as > > the rest of the TMO. I'm pretty sure that he could have gotten David > > Lynch to pay the bill for anyone sentenced to practice TM, but its > > doubtful that he even considered trying. > > > > So now there's a schism where there didn't need to be one because > > someone was too proud to ask someone else for funding. > > > > There is a schism because the TMO does not really want the TM > Technique taught here. Nothing complicated, more emphasis on money > than meditators, otherwise they would adjust the price for prisioners. > > Why adjust their price for prisoners when there are people willing to foot the bill at the current price? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonybliss_ff > wrote: > > > > Correction! > > No one is *compelled* to participate in "The Enlightened > > Sentencing Program" developed ny Farrokh. It's an option made > > available, and accepted by the *choice* of the participant after > they > > learn what the program entails. They take *responsibility* for their > > *choice* and their own lives. > > > > The stories of the participants--in their own words--which you can > > find on the TESP web site can be quite moving. > > > > The whole civil liberties question has already been dealt with on > this > > issue, I believe, even more so with the program no longer being > > associated with the TM movement. > > > > And only because Farokh is every bit as arrogant in his own way as > the rest of the TMO. I'm pretty sure that he could have gotten David > Lynch to pay the bill for anyone sentenced to practice TM, but its > doubtful that he even considered trying. > > So now there's a schism where there didn't need to be one because > someone was too proud to ask someone else for funding. > There is a schism because the TMO does not really want the TM Technique taught here. Nothing complicated, more emphasis on money than meditators, otherwise they would adjust the price for prisioners. JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
I wonder if he was ever initiated? With that type of background and leanings, and after studying the case and hearing arguments, the idea of learning to meditate might have been pretty tempting. ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > I'd love to know more about Judge Adams. Do you know > > his first name, by any chance? I can't find it in the > > document. > > FWIW, looked him up on the Web, found a transcript > of an oral history interview he did for Penn Law > School in 1999. Apparently he's known for his opinions > in cases involving religion and the First Amendment. > He was under serious consideration two or three > times, he says, for the Supreme Court. > > He retired in 1987 and went back to private practice, > where he was when the interview was held. Wikipedia's > article on the Third Circuit Court lists him as still > living. And he was the president of the American > Philosophical Society at the time of the interview. > > He appears to have been a very distinguished judge. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
Comment below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > wrote: > > Linda Greenhouse is one of the journalists at the NY Times who covers > > the Supreme Court. My civil procedure professor recommended that I > > read everything that she writes; she has a very clear and deep insight > > into the Court and she's an excellent writer, too. > > What do you think of Chicago Tribune reporter Jan Crawford Greenburg > who often appears on PBS NewsHour (Jim Lehr) -- as does Linda > Greenhouse -- to comment on supreme and appelate court issues. > **END** Don't watch any television so I can't comment. Do she and Linda G. do a point/counterpoint thing or just regular, informed dialogue? From the little I've seen of Lehr I'd expect the latter. What's your opinion of her and of Greenhouse? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'd love to know more about Judge Adams. Do you know > his first name, by any chance? I can't find it in the > document. FWIW, looked him up on the Web, found a transcript of an oral history interview he did for Penn Law School in 1999. Apparently he's known for his opinions in cases involving religion and the First Amendment. He was under serious consideration two or three times, he says, for the Supreme Court. He retired in 1987 and went back to private practice, where he was when the interview was held. Wikipedia's article on the Third Circuit Court lists him as still living. And he was the president of the American Philosophical Society at the time of the interview. He appears to have been a very distinguished judge. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Linda Greenhouse is one of the journalists at the NY Times who covers > the Supreme Court. My civil procedure professor recommended that I > read everything that she writes; she has a very clear and deep insight > into the Court and she's an excellent writer, too. What do you think of Chicago Tribune reporter Jan Crawford Greenburg who often appears on PBS NewsHour (Jim Lehr) -- as does Linda Greenhouse -- to comment on supreme and appelate court issues. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
Comment below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: **SNIP** > I'd love to know more about Judge Adams. Do you know > his first name, by any chance? I can't find it in the > document. > > Do appeals court rulings typically include opinions by > one or more of the judges, or does one get written only > if an individual judge is inspired to explore the issue > in depth? > **SNIP TO END** No, I don't know Adams' first name or anything about him. Now almost 30 years later, chances are he's no longer on the bench. Judges write separate opinions, whether dissenting, concurring, dissenting in part, concurring in part, agreeing with the decision but not with the majority reasoning, etc. for all of those reasons and lots more besides. In Malnak it looks as if Adams just really wanted to address the issue from a broader context. In a typical appellate decision there will be more than one issue decided, since the attorney writing the appeal will have endeavored to raise as many issues as possible in order to get what they want. So, not infrequently, when there *are* separate opinions written you may have the judge writing it addressing only one or only some of the issues that came down in the actual decision. And even though the separate opinions are published along with the actual holding of the court, they carry no precedential weight and can't be cited as authority. Only the actual decision (with however many rulings it addresses) is the official opinion of the court. Oftentimes, however, as in Malnak, the separate opinions are more elegant arguments and lawyers *do* refer to them in crafting their own arguments in other cases and will cite them as one measure of proof that an issue is either still contentious or perhaps wrongly decided the first time and worth revisiting. Linda Greenhouse is one of the journalists at the NY Times who covers the Supreme Court. My civil procedure professor recommended that I read everything that she writes; she has a very clear and deep insight into the Court and she's an excellent writer, too. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > For instance, the US armed forces employs a wide variety > of > > > > clergy to > > > > > > serve as chaplains. They do ALL of the above and get paid > by > > the > > > > US > > > > > > government for doing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It just dawned on me how cool a USAF chaplain's job might > be -- > > being > > > > > "proficient" in 5 or 8 or more major religions and their > primary > > > > > ceremonies. > > > > > > > > ??? Chaplains only perform services within the confines of > their > > own > > > > religions. > > > > > > OK, I was under the mistaken impression, from movies perhaps, > that > > > they are trained in a variety of religious practices, since each > > unit > > > can't have a whole different set of chaplains for Baptist, > > > Episcalpalian, catholic, reform and conservative jewish, shi- > ite > > and > > > sunni muslim, saivaite and vaishnavite hindu, theravada, > hirayana, > > and > > > tibetian buddhist, jain, confuscian, various african tribal > > religions. > > > But apparently they do. Wow, that must be a kewl bus to be on. > > Imagine > > > the poker games. > > > > > > > Chaplains can perform generic services, but they conduct them > within > > the context of their own religion. A rabi can lead a prayer, but > > doesn't give communion for instance. > > > > * > > It's an interesting point that the government will pay for religious > activities, but in the case of chaplains, the need is felt by men > about to die to have some religious comfort. If a similar need was > someday felt on a widespread basis in U.S. society for TM, then > there would be no objection to sentencing convicts to TM or Zen, etc. > > In other words, the people get what they want, regardless of what it > says in the Constitution (or what judges say it says), but there is > not much interest in TM, while there is a tremendous demand for > religious succor in the military services -- it's demand-driven, > ultimately, not law-driven. Most people in the U.S. want legal > abortion, so the courts say it's constitutional -- if most people > did not want legal abortion, the courts would say it was > unconstitutional. > I don't know if it's as cut-and-dry as you suggest but I agree. Many decisions by the Supreme Court are subjective and influenced by the court of public opinion rather than the rule of law. for example, 100 years ago people in the U.S. weren't prepared for integration so the Court gave us Plessy v. Ferguson. About 60 years later, the Court -- using the same constitution -- gave us Brown v. Board of Education. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" > > > > wrote: > > > > > For instance, the US armed forces employs a wide variety of > > > clergy to > > > > > serve as chaplains. They do ALL of the above and get paid by > the > > > US > > > > > government for doing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > It just dawned on me how cool a USAF chaplain's job might be -- > being > > > > "proficient" in 5 or 8 or more major religions and their primary > > > > ceremonies. > > > > > > ??? Chaplains only perform services within the confines of their > own > > > religions. > > > > OK, I was under the mistaken impression, from movies perhaps, that > > they are trained in a variety of religious practices, since each > unit > > can't have a whole different set of chaplains for Baptist, > > Episcalpalian, catholic, reform and conservative jewish, shi- ite > and > > sunni muslim, saivaite and vaishnavite hindu, theravada, hirayana, > and > > tibetian buddhist, jain, confuscian, various african tribal > religions. > > But apparently they do. Wow, that must be a kewl bus to be on. > Imagine > > the poker games. > > > > Chaplains can perform generic services, but they conduct them within > the context of their own religion. A rabi can lead a prayer, but > doesn't give communion for instance. > * It's an interesting point that the government will pay for religious activities, but in the case of chaplains, the need is felt by men about to die to have some religious comfort. If a similar need was someday felt on a widespread basis in U.S. society for TM, then there would be no objection to sentencing convicts to TM or Zen, etc. In other words, the people get what they want, regardless of what it says in the Constitution (or what judges say it says), but there is not much interest in TM, while there is a tremendous demand for religious succor in the military services -- it's demand-driven, ultimately, not law-driven. Most people in the U.S. want legal abortion, so the courts say it's constitutional -- if most people did not want legal abortion, the courts would say it was unconstitutional. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" > > wrote: > > > > For instance, the US armed forces employs a wide variety of > > clergy to > > > > serve as chaplains. They do ALL of the above and get paid by the > > US > > > > government for doing it. > > > > > > > > > It just dawned on me how cool a USAF chaplain's job might be -- being > > > "proficient" in 5 or 8 or more major religions and their primary > > > ceremonies. > > > > ??? Chaplains only perform services within the confines of their own > > religions. > > OK, I was under the mistaken impression, from movies perhaps, that > they are trained in a variety of religious practices, since each unit > can't have a whole different set of chaplains for Baptist, > Episcalpalian, catholic, reform and conservative jewish, shi-ite and > sunni muslim, saivaite and vaishnavite hindu, theravada, hirayana, and > tibetian buddhist, jain, confuscian, various african tribal religions. > But apparently they do. Wow, that must be a kewl bus to be on. Imagine > the poker games. > You forgot the TM religion. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" > > wrote: > > > > For instance, the US armed forces employs a wide variety of > > clergy to > > > > serve as chaplains. They do ALL of the above and get paid by the > > US > > > > government for doing it. > > > > > > > > > It just dawned on me how cool a USAF chaplain's job might be -- being > > > "proficient" in 5 or 8 or more major religions and their primary > > > ceremonies. > > > > ??? Chaplains only perform services within the confines of their own > > religions. > > OK, I was under the mistaken impression, from movies perhaps, that > they are trained in a variety of religious practices, since each unit > can't have a whole different set of chaplains for Baptist, > Episcalpalian, catholic, reform and conservative jewish, shi-ite and > sunni muslim, saivaite and vaishnavite hindu, theravada, hirayana, and > tibetian buddhist, jain, confuscian, various african tribal religions. > But apparently they do. Wow, that must be a kewl bus to be on. Imagine > the poker games. > Chaplains can perform generic services, but they conduct them within the context of their own religion. A rabi can lead a prayer, but doesn't give communion for instance. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" > wrote: > > > For instance, the US armed forces employs a wide variety of > clergy to > > > serve as chaplains. They do ALL of the above and get paid by the > US > > > government for doing it. > > > > > > It just dawned on me how cool a USAF chaplain's job might be --being > > "proficient" in 5 or 8 or more major religions and their primary > > ceremonies. > > ??? Chaplains only perform services within the confines of their own > religions. OK, I was under the mistaken impression, from movies perhaps, that they are trained in a variety of religious practices, since each unit can't have a whole different set of chaplains for Baptist, Episcalpalian, catholic, reform and conservative jewish, shi-ite and sunni muslim, saivaite and vaishnavite hindu, theravada, hirayana, and tibetian buddhist, jain, confuscian, various african tribal religions. But apparently they do. Wow, that must be a kewl bus to be on. Imagine the poker games. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > For instance, the US armed forces employs a wide variety of clergy to > > serve as chaplains. They do ALL of the above and get paid by the US > > government for doing it. > > > It just dawned on me how cool a USAF chaplain's job might be --being > "proficient" in 5 or 8 or more major religions and their primary > ceremonies. ??? Chaplains only perform services within the confines of their own religions. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > For instance, the US armed forces employs a wide variety of clergy to > serve as chaplains. They do ALL of the above and get paid by the US > government for doing it. It just dawned on me how cool a USAF chaplain's job might be --being "proficient" in 5 or 8 or more major religions and their primary ceremonies. A saint I like (ok I like all saints) SSRS, said in the future people will simply draw from the best parts of all religions (and drop the archaic stuff). I took that to mean people won't "belong" to single religions, but become adept at worshiping in many forms and ways. Universalists. So a a USAF chaplain job --being "proficient" in 5 or 8 or more major religions and their primary ceremonies -- could be a forerunner of this. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > > wrote: > > > Jerry Jarvis being cross-examined about the puja and its meaning > > > from plaintiff's attorney. The lawyer was attempting to get Jerry > > > to admit that he (and all TM teachers) literally believed > > > everything that was in the puja -- all the divine stuff -- and > > > therefore, obviously, TM was a religion. Jerry repeatedly denied > > > the literalism of the puja and finally deadpanned that he did not > > > *really* believe that Guru Dev had lotus feet. > > > > Never heard that; that's great. Classic Jerry. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > wrote: > > > > Comment below: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > > > [Brigante wrote:] Not exactly a surprise, in fact I was > wondering > > why there had not > > > > been a challenge earlier, given the Malnak ruling years ago > > (1979 -- > > > > > > > > > Bunches of reasons: 1) it works; 2) the ruling was EXTREMELY > > limiated > > > in scope and even if it were not, it was a lower-court ruling, > so > > it > > > wouldn'tbeconsidered binding precedent in another state; 3) > times > > > have changed with faith-based initiatives all over the place -- > no > > > Christian organization will dare bring a lawsuit challenging TM > > when > > > a ruling against TM would make THEIR initiatives vulnerable also. > > > > > > > **SNIP TO END** > > > > The ruling in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197 (1977)) was from the > Third > > District Federal Court and consequently only binding precedent in > the > > Third District, and only *persuasive* authority (but not binding) > in > > lower state courts within the Third District and therefore of only > > limited persuasive authority (if that) anywhere else. > > > > > > "...courts often rely on persuasive precedent from courts in other > jurisdictions that have previously dealt with similar issues." > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent > > I can't imagine a court considering this challenge by the AFA to > teaching convicts TM without referencing Malnak, and the use of > ceremonies (the puja) in teaching TM is probably going to be enough > for the court to find against Anklesaria's TSRP, even though he is > not teaching SCI along with TM: > > "The concurring opinion in the Malnak case referenced three factors > to consider in determining whether a particular belief system > constitutes a religion for purposes of the Establishment Clause: (1) > Does the belief system address fundamental questions, or areas of > ultimate concern [e.g., theories of man's nature or his place in the > universe]? (2) Does the belief system proffer a comprehensive > systematic series of answers to these fundamental questions? (3) Are > there any practices that may be analogized to accepted religions > [e.g., formal services, ceremonial functions, existence of clergy > etc.]?" > > http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Gen_Couns_to_SD.html > My recollection isthat the test for government establishment of a religion in thepublic schools is MUCH more rigorous than for adults. For instance, the US armed forces employs a wide variety of clergy to serve as chaplains. They do ALL of the above and get paid by the US government for doing it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > wrote: > > > > Judy, thanks for the correction; I did a quick search and didn't > > think to check and see if this was a separate opinion. I assumed > > (and apparently, incorrectly) that this was from the Court's actual > > ruling. > > Well, I guess an opinion, concurring or dissenting, is > technically part of the ruling; I'm not sure how the > terminology works. But I just wanted to point out that > it's sort of an extended addendum that provides a > detailed rationale for the ruling, and is by only one of > the three judges. > > The lower court ruling is much less interesting, much > more doctrinaire and superficial. Classic Jerry. > > > Some judges do write with great clarity and those that do, not > > infrequently, with great wit and charm. The opinion I quoted is, I > > feel, an accurate and cogent evaluation of the combined TM/SCI > > position vis-a-vis religion. > > I'm glad to know you think so. My perspective on it > is, to say the least, inexpert, so I'm pleased to have > it confirmed. It's the first, and so far the only, > detailed opinion I've read on an appeals court case > dealing with a constitutional issue, and I was really > quite impressed by it. > > I'd love to know more about Judge Adams. Do you know > his first name, by any chance? I can't find it in the > document. > > Do appeals court rulings typically include opinions by > one or more of the judges, or does one get written only > if an individual judge is inspired to explore the issue > in depth? > > > One of the great stories from that case that I heard about was about > > Jerry Jarvis being cross-examined about the puja and its meaning > > from plaintiff's attorney. The lawyer was attempting to get Jerry > > to admit that he (and all TM teachers) literally believed > > everything that was in the puja -- all the divine stuff -- and > > therefore, obviously, TM was a religion. Jerry repeatedly denied > > the literalism of the puja and finally deadpanned that he did not > > *really* believe that Guru Dev had lotus feet. > > Never heard that; that's great. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff > wrote: > > > I'm sorry, but ANY MUM study is suspect due to this "exectations" > > pehenomenon. It doesn't mean David OJ, Skip A, Arick A, or Fred T.. or > > whoever are evil or ill-intentioned, but they live and work and > > breath in a HIGH expectations environment. The epectations effect is > > real. I personally don't trust a shred of their resseach. Show me some > > good old time TOTAL independent research. By people not connected the > > TMO, who are not new-agey and have no great love of meditation and > > things mystical. I want to see research by Dennis Hopper -- with a > > Phd. > > Trouble is, as Crichton points out, it cuts both ways. > If you want to be able to have complete faith in the > results, you don't want just *independent* researchers, > you want *neutral* researchers with no bias either way. yes,neutral was the idea I was shooting for. Enough diverse and independent researchers wiil, in bulk, be neutral. The "errors" cancel each others out. (See Wisdom of Crowds, a fascinating read.) > They'll be hard to find, if only because, being neutral, > they'd have no particular interest in researching > meditation. Thats why a good "random sample" of diverse and "independent", reserchers are good, if not necessary. >It's the folks who have an interest--pro > or con--who tend to be motivated to go to the trouble > to do the research (on just about any subject). Well, yes and now. Long topic. > But if you had some research that was biased in the con > direction, at least you'd have the basis for a dialectic. Yes, I think we are on same wave -- again read Wisdom of Crowds. It changed my View. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Judy, thanks for the correction; I did a quick search and didn't > think to check and see if this was a separate opinion. I assumed > (and apparently, incorrectly) that this was from the Court's actual > ruling. Well, I guess an opinion, concurring or dissenting, is technically part of the ruling; I'm not sure how the terminology works. But I just wanted to point out that it's sort of an extended addendum that provides a detailed rationale for the ruling, and is by only one of the three judges. The lower court ruling is much less interesting, much more doctrinaire and superficial. > Some judges do write with great clarity and those that do, not > infrequently, with great wit and charm. The opinion I quoted is, I > feel, an accurate and cogent evaluation of the combined TM/SCI > position vis-a-vis religion. I'm glad to know you think so. My perspective on it is, to say the least, inexpert, so I'm pleased to have it confirmed. It's the first, and so far the only, detailed opinion I've read on an appeals court case dealing with a constitutional issue, and I was really quite impressed by it. I'd love to know more about Judge Adams. Do you know his first name, by any chance? I can't find it in the document. Do appeals court rulings typically include opinions by one or more of the judges, or does one get written only if an individual judge is inspired to explore the issue in depth? > One of the great stories from that case that I heard about was about > Jerry Jarvis being cross-examined about the puja and its meaning > from plaintiff's attorney. The lawyer was attempting to get Jerry > to admit that he (and all TM teachers) literally believed > everything that was in the puja -- all the divine stuff -- and > therefore, obviously, TM was a religion. Jerry repeatedly denied > the literalism of the puja and finally deadpanned that he did not > *really* believe that Guru Dev had lotus feet. Never heard that; that's great. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
Reply below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: **SNIP > > "...courts often rely on persuasive precedent from courts in other > jurisdictions that have previously dealt with similar issues." > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent > > I can't imagine a court considering this challenge by the AFA to > teaching convicts TM without referencing Malnak, and the use of > ceremonies (the puja) in teaching TM is probably going to be enough > for the court to find against Anklesaria's TSRP, even though he is > not teaching SCI along with TM: > > "The concurring opinion in the Malnak case referenced three factors > to consider in determining whether a particular belief system > constitutes a religion for purposes of the Establishment Clause: (1) > Does the belief system address fundamental questions, or areas of > ultimate concern [e.g., theories of man's nature or his place in the > universe]? (2) Does the belief system proffer a comprehensive > systematic series of answers to these fundamental questions? (3) Are > there any practices that may be analogized to accepted religions > [e.g., formal services, ceremonial functions, existence of clergy > etc.]?" > > http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Gen_Couns_to_SD.html > **END** Though true in theory, the persuasive authority of other courts from other districts or jurisdictions are pretty negligible. When such outside authority is cited the judge will almost always note on the record that such authority is not binding. But, it's true that if the arguments contained within another court are well-constructed, the court will sometimes import the arguments into their own decision. If, however, you're making an argument only (or even just primarily) using non-binding authority you are in a very weak position (generally). To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
Judy, thanks for the correction; I did a quick search and didn't think to check and see if this was a separate opinion. I assumed (and apparently, incorrectly) that this was from the Court's actual ruling. Some judges do write with great clarity and those that do, not infrequently, with great wit and charm. The opinion I quoted is, I feel, an accurate and cogent evaluation of the combined TM/SCI position vis-a-vis religion. One of the great stories from that case that I heard about was about Jerry Jarvis being cross-examined about the puja and its meaning from plaintiff's attorney. The lawyer was attempting to get Jerry to admit that he (and all TM teachers) literally believed everything that was in the puja -- all the divine stuff -- and therefore, obviously, TM was a religion. Jerry repeatedly denied the literalism of the puja and finally deadpanned that he did not *really* believe that Guru Dev had lotus feet. ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > wrote: > > > The ruling in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197 (1977)) was from the > > Third District Federal Court and consequently only binding > > precedent in the Third District, and only *persuasive* authority > > (but not binding) in lower state courts within the Third District > > and therefore of only limited persuasive authority (if that) > > anywhere else. > > Ah, a fellow Malnak fan... > > These quotations are not from the actual ruling > of the Third Court of Appeals but from a concurring > opinion submitted by one of the judges (Adams). > > It's long and quite thoughtful, and something of an > education in and of itself in freedom-of/from-religion > issues and how the First Amendment is interpreted in > specific cases (at least it was for me). It's pretty > clearly written and not all that technical. I found > it fascinating. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Comment below: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > [Brigante wrote:] Not exactly a surprise, in fact I was wondering > why there had not > > > been a challenge earlier, given the Malnak ruling years ago > (1979 -- > > > > > > Bunches of reasons: 1) it works; 2) the ruling was EXTREMELY > limiated > > in scope and even if it were not, it was a lower-court ruling, so > it > > wouldn'tbeconsidered binding precedent in another state; 3) times > > have changed with faith-based initiatives all over the place -- no > > Christian organization will dare bring a lawsuit challenging TM > when > > a ruling against TM would make THEIR initiatives vulnerable also. > > > > **SNIP TO END** > > The ruling in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197 (1977)) was from the Third > District Federal Court and consequently only binding precedent in the > Third District, and only *persuasive* authority (but not binding) in > lower state courts within the Third District and therefore of only > limited persuasive authority (if that) anywhere else. > "...courts often rely on persuasive precedent from courts in other jurisdictions that have previously dealt with similar issues." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent I can't imagine a court considering this challenge by the AFA to teaching convicts TM without referencing Malnak, and the use of ceremonies (the puja) in teaching TM is probably going to be enough for the court to find against Anklesaria's TSRP, even though he is not teaching SCI along with TM: "The concurring opinion in the Malnak case referenced three factors to consider in determining whether a particular belief system constitutes a religion for purposes of the Establishment Clause: (1) Does the belief system address fundamental questions, or areas of ultimate concern [e.g., theories of man's nature or his place in the universe]? (2) Does the belief system proffer a comprehensive systematic series of answers to these fundamental questions? (3) Are there any practices that may be analogized to accepted religions [e.g., formal services, ceremonial functions, existence of clergy etc.]?" http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Gen_Couns_to_SD.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm sorry, but ANY MUM study is suspect due to this "exectations" > pehenomenon. It doesn't mean David OJ, Skip A, Arick A, or Fred T.. or > whoever are evil or ill-intentioned, but they live and work and > breath in a HIGH expectations environment. The epectations effect is > real. I personally don't trust a shred of their resseach. Show me some > good old time TOTAL independent research. By people not connected the > TMO, who are not new-agey and have no great love of meditation and > things mystical. I want to see research by Dennis Hopper -- with a > Phd. Trouble is, as Crichton points out, it cuts both ways. If you want to be able to have complete faith in the results, you don't want just *independent* researchers, you want *neutral* researchers with no bias either way. They'll be hard to find, if only because, being neutral, they'd have no particular interest in researching meditation. It's the folks who have an interest--pro or con--who tend to be motivated to go to the trouble to do the research (on just about any subject). But if you had some research that was biased in the con direction, at least you'd have the basis for a dialectic. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The ruling in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197 (1977)) was from the > Third District Federal Court and consequently only binding > precedent in the Third District, and only *persuasive* authority > (but not binding) in lower state courts within the Third District > and therefore of only limited persuasive authority (if that) > anywhere else. Ah, a fellow Malnak fan... These quotations are not from the actual ruling of the Third Court of Appeals but from a concurring opinion submitted by one of the judges (Adams). It's long and quite thoughtful, and something of an education in and of itself in freedom-of/from-religion issues and how the First Amendment is interpreted in specific cases (at least it was for me). It's pretty clearly written and not all that technical. I found it fascinating. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [...] > I'm sorry, but ANY MUM study is suspect due to this "exectations" > pehenomenon. It doesn't mean David OJ, Skip A, Arick A, or Fred T.. or > whoever are evil or ill-intentioned, but they live and work and > breath in a HIGH expectations environment. The epectations effect is > real. I personally don't trust a shred of their resseach. Show me some > good old time TOTAL independent research. By people not connected the > TMO, who are not new-agey and have no great love of meditation and > things mystical. I want to see research by Dennis Hopper -- with a Phd. > As I said, the most recent TM research is done by teams of TMing and non-TMing researchers, and even, gasp, by non-TMing researchers all by themselves. One study was done by people with different agendas: mindfulness, TM, and Benson's relaxation response, and the second came out ahead in all areas, while the first was first in only one or two. The third was often worse than the controls. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine > wrote: > > > > On Apr 12, 2006, at 4:02 PM, bob_brigante wrote: > > > > > Unless the court rejects the thinking by the Malnak court > (certainly > > > always a possibility in American jurisprudence), the court will > find > > > that TM amounts to establishment of religion, > > > > And where they'd get a crazy idea like that is beyond me. Cult is > a > > bit more accurate. > > > > > whether the convict is > > > compelled to do so or offered TM as an option. > > > > TM or jail time? It's close. > > > > Sal > > Wholeness vs Holeness? > As my son pointed out, bum-rape vs TM? What a choice... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- anon_couscous_ff wrote:
> > >
> > > On the surface -- it feels good. At a deeper level, it raises
> > > questions: can other judges offer prayer and bible study as an
> > > alternative. Or attandance in a stict muslim madras(sp)? Or as an
> > > apprentice in the Moonies' programs? Or attendance at a 12 part
> tantra
> > > sex seminar?* How about a year with Scientology?
> >
> > When those programs offer reams of data demonstrating their
> > efficacy, great. Let's put them to work.
> >
>
> Ah,but all TM data is suspect because it is, well, TM data.
>
> Never mind if many/most/all of the scientists working on the study
> don't practice TM. If its TM, its fake data, by definition.
Well, sort of, yes. I just read a novel, that perhaps ironically,
weaves a lot of scientific studies into the plot. ("State of Fear" --
Michael Critcheon). One set of studies, that I have vaguely seen over
the year -- along with the great cognitive science stuff that
periodically comes out -- was on expectations and bias in polling and
scientific studies. He cited a number of studies along the lines of
sending two genitically identical sets of mice to two sets of labs,
where one lab was told (falsely) that the mice were bred specially for
intelligence and they were 70% above the norm. The other lab was told
the inverse aka stupid mice. Each lab provided results parallel to the
expectations. Same with polling -- each poller READS the same quesions
from a card, but one set of pllsters are told people on average answer
yes 70% of the time. Other set of pollers are told that people
generaly answerno 70% of the time. The poll results from all poltsers
correllated closely with the "expectations". Lotsof similar studies.
It does not require ill intentions. But subtle cues of expectations
can highly drive and distort results of studies. Why may not be fully
clear. But there is a mountain of evidence along these lines. Thus the
move towards double blind studies -- where the subjects AND the
reserchers don't know who got the real drug and who got the placebo.
I'm sorry, but ANY MUM study is suspect due to this "exectations"
pehenomenon. It doesn't mean David OJ, Skip A, Arick A, or Fred T.. or
whoever are evil or ill-intentioned, but they live and work and
breath in a HIGH expectations environment. The epectations effect is
real. I personally don't trust a shred of their resseach. Show me some
good old time TOTAL independent research. By people not connected the
TMO, who are not new-agey and have no great love of meditation and
things mystical. I want to see research by Dennis Hopper -- with a Phd.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
Comment below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [Brigante wrote:] Not exactly a surprise, in fact I was wondering why there had not > > been a challenge earlier, given the Malnak ruling years ago (1979 -- > > > Bunches of reasons: 1) it works; 2) the ruling was EXTREMELY limiated > in scope and even if it were not, it was a lower-court ruling, so it > wouldn'tbeconsidered binding precedent in another state; 3) times > have changed with faith-based initiatives all over the place --no > Christian organization will dare bring a lawsuit challenging TM when > a ruling against TM would make THEIR initiatives vulnerable also. > **SNIP TO END** The ruling in Malnak v. Yogi (592 F.2d 197 (1977)) was from the Third District Federal Court and consequently only binding precedent in the Third District, and only *persuasive* authority (but not binding) in lower state courts within the Third District and therefore of only limited persuasive authority (if that) anywhere else. Whether or not TM "works", the Court in Malnak specifically evaluated whether or not the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution (the First Amendment, which bans the government from either promoting or prohibiting religion) was violated by the *combined* teaching of TM/SCI in the New Jersey public schools, and not the teaching of TM by itself (although the Court does reference a Law Review article from the University of Minnesota that argues TM alone would be violative of the Establishment Clause in Footnote 54, see below). The relevant passages from that decision follow: "Although Transcendental Meditation by itself might be defended as appellants sought to do in this appeal as primarily a relaxation or concentration technique with no "ultimate" significance,[FN54] the New Jersey course at issue here was not a course in TM alone, but a course in the Science of Creative Intelligence. Creative Intelligence, according to the textbook in the record, is "at the basis of all growth and progress" and is, indeed, "the basis of everything." Transcendental Meditation is presented as a means for contacting this "impelling life force" so as to achieve "inner contentment." Creative Intelligence can provide such "contentment" because it is "a field of unlimited happiness," which is at work everywhere and visible in such diverse places as in "the changing of the seasons" and "the wings of a butterfly." That the existence of such a pervasive and fundamental life force is a matter of "ultimate concern" can hardly be questioned. It is put forth as the foundation of life and the world itself.[FN55] FN54. The religious significance of TM alone is disputed. It has been defended as wholly consistent with other religious views, and attacked by adherents of those religions as premeated with Hinduism. Compare D. Denniston & P. McWilliams, The TM Book 14-19 (1975) With Beware of TM, 19 Christianity Today 1168 (1975). The extent of its involvement with "ultimate concerns" might well vary from course to course. For a comprehensive survey of the literature for and against TM, and the distinctions between TM and SCI/TM See Note, Transcendental Meditation and The Meaning of Religion Under the Establishment Clause, 62 Minn.L.Rev. 887 (1978). The Minnesota commentator expresses considerable doubt that any TM course could pass constitutional muster. Id. 938-48. FN55. Appellants have argued that Creative Intelligence is a science, not a religion, and that their claims for it are scientifically verifiable. But theology, too, may be regarded as a science, and many theologians in the past have thought that the existence of their God could be proved by reason. It is true that some of those favoring a broad definition of religion have suggested that one indicia of a religious nature is that such beliefs are not based on reason alone, but are to some extent based on faith. See United States v. Kauten, 133 F.2d 703, 708 (2d Cir. 1943); Boyan, Defining Religion in Operational and Institutional Terms, 116 U.Pa.L.Rev. 479, 485-86 (1968). I think it sufficient to conclude that a court cannot accept nor doubt a believer's assertion that his views are "true" and provable empirically. Such a controversy would involve an examination of the truth or falsity of beliefs rather than their nature. The Science of Creative Intelligence provides answers to questions concerning the nature both of world and man, the underlying sustaining force of the universe, and the way to unlimited happiness. Although it is not as comprehensive as some religions for example, it does not appear to include a complete or absolute moral code it is nonetheless sufficiently comprehensive to avoid the suggestion of an isolated theory unconnected with any particular world view or basic belief system. SCI/TM provides a way, indeed in the eyes of its adherents, The way to full self realization an
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Apr 12, 2006, at 4:02 PM, bob_brigante wrote: > > > Unless the court rejects the thinking by the Malnak court (certainly > > always a possibility in American jurisprudence), the court will find > > that TM amounts to establishment of religion, > > And where they'd get a crazy idea like that is beyond me. Cult is a > bit more accurate. > > > whether the convict is > > compelled to do so or offered TM as an option. > > TM or jail time? It's close. > > Sal Wholeness vs Holeness? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
On Apr 12, 2006, at 4:02 PM, bob_brigante wrote: Unless the court rejects the thinking by the Malnak court (certainly always a possibility in American jurisprudence), the court will find that TM amounts to establishment of religion, And where they'd get a crazy idea like that is beyond me. Cult is a bit more accurate. whether the convict is compelled to do so or offered TM as an option. TM or jail time? It's close. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" > > wrote: > > > --- TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > > > > > it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* > > > > to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of > > > > meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. > > > > > > I don't believe compulsion enters in; I believe the parolee > > > decides whether to participate in the program. I've forgotten > > > the details. > > > > > > The dicey question might be whether the parolee gets > > > easier terms as a result of participation. Again, I don't recall. > > > > > > This question is kinda like the grammar question I commented > > > on a moment ago. I don't know what the rules are, but I know > > > what feels right, and it feels like the Enlightened Sentencing > > > Program is a great thing. > > > > That's cool. Doesn't feel that way to me. > > Feels like the top of a very steep and very > > slippery slope to me. > > On the surface -- it feels good. At a deeper level, it raises > questions: can other judges offer prayer and bible study as an > alternative. Or attandance in a stict muslim madras(sp)? Or as an > apprentice in the Moonies' programs? Or attendance at a 12 part > tantra sex seminar?* How about a year with Scientology? Tonight I attended a concert of medieval music, songs of pilgrimage, as performed by Jordi Savall and his wonderful Hesperion XXI ensemble. The concert was held in the Cathedrale Saint-Theodorit in nearby Uzes. Although the music was wonderful, knowing the history of this cathedral, it was impossible not to think of this FFL thread while sitting there. It's a fairly normal cathedral, as French cathe- drals go, except that it has a second and third floor to it, galleries off to each side that allowed whoever was standing there to look down on the Mass through metal grillwork. You see, in the late 17th century, the primarily Catholic townspeople decided that -- for their own good -- all of the Protestants should be forced to attend Mass every Sunday. They were not allowed to take communion, of course, and were equally not allowed to mingle with the "real" people down in the main area of the cathedral. So -- again, for their own good -- they were herded into these second- and third- floor galleries and forced to stand there while the Catholics had their Mass downstairs. I repeat my contention; no matter who you are or how theoretically noble your intentions, when you can justify imposing your beliefs and practices on someone "for their own good," you're at the top of a very slippery slope indeed. The road to hell paved with good intentions, and all that... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
One of my tantric guru's disciples was a juvenile officer and had him come in and teach some juvenile offenders meditation. It was very helpful and the kids enjoyed it. He had them write short papers on meditation and I read some of them. It seemed to mean a lot to these kids. One touching thing was that he found out that it was one of the participants birthday so he brought a birthday cake. She was in tears because her family had NEVER celebrated her birthday. TurquoiseB wrote: >While he's often right on, I think Jody (Guruphiliac) missed >the boat on this one. While the lawyer in question may be >Christian, what he's saying in his lawsuit is *correct*: >it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* >to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of >meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. > >Maharishi never got this, IMO because he's a control >freak who *already* believes that he should be able to >run the lives of his teachers the way *he* feels they >should be run. It's a short hop from believing that to >believing that he has the right to mandate the lifestyle >of everyone else in society. And he's on record as >believing that he *does* have that right, and that TM >*should* be mandated by governments. > >Talk about missing the point. Personally, I don't see >that much difference between Maharishi's stance on this >subject and that of the Ayatollahs in Iran or Afghanistan >who wish to "enforce" Islam, or that of religious fanatics >in every society and in every time who have felt they had >the right to impose their beliefs on others. > >The real issue is freedom of choice with regard to one's >spiritual or meditational practices. In my opinion, anyone >who is willing to take that freedom away from someone, while >claiming it's "for their own good," is on the same level as >the despot or dictator who would take away their physical >freedom. > > >--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/4/112006e.asp >> >>Jody (Guruphiliac) comments quite rightly: >> >>That bulwark of spiritual ignorance impeding progress and cultural >>evolution, the American Family Association, is going after the >> >> >judge > > >>who sentenced a crack-smoking vote defrauder to a course in >> >> >TM™. > > >>Actually, it's TMSM, or Transcendental Meditation Stress >> >> >Management, > > >>and not affiliated with the Madharishi anymore.Leading the charge >> >> >for > > >>the AFA is lawyer Brian Fahling:"You've got a governmental actor >> >> >who's > > >>ordering an individual to participate in something that perhaps may >>run contrary to their own particular beliefs and belief system." >>Still, the attorney says he is not really surprised by the judge's >>order because it is consistent with a larger trend toward >>secularization that is progressing in America.Wait a minute... The >>government is ordering an individual to participate in something >> >> >that > > >>is being construed as a religious belief, yet the fact of this is >>evidence of the progressing secularization of America?We guess the >> >> >guy > > >>is as uptight about his idea of religion as he looks in his >> >> >photograph. > > >http://www.agapepress.org/PhotoArchives/PhotoFiles/LoRes/BFahling_LoR >es.jpg > > >> Who'da thunk that?What he means to say is that TM™ is the >> >> >wrong > > >>religion. They all are... except his. There is no doubt the guy >> >> >would > > >>be flipping cartwheels if the judge had sentenced the girl to >> >> >attend a > > >>Southern Baptist church instead. It would have been much harsher >>outcome for the poor thing if you asked us. >> >>http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> > > > > > > >To subscribe, send a message to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Or go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ >and click 'Join This Group!' >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonybliss_ff > > wrote: > > > > > > Correction! > > > No one is *compelled* to participate in "The Enlightened > > > Sentencing Program" developed ny Farrokh. It's an option made > > > available, and accepted by the *choice* of the participant after > > they > > > learn what the program entails. They take *responsibility* for > > their > > > *choice* and their own lives. > > > > > > The stories of the participants--in their own words--which you can > > > find on the TESP web site can be quite moving. > > > > > > The whole civil liberties question has already been dealt with on > > this > > > issue, I believe, even more so with the program no longer being > > > associated with the TM movement. > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > Unless the court rejects the thinking by the Malnak court > (certainly > > always a possibility in American jurisprudence), the court will > find > > that TM amounts to establishment of religion, whether the convict > is > > compelled to do so or offered TM as an option. All the elements > that > > made the Malnak court find TM/SCI to be a religious practice are in > > place, even though Anklesaria has disassociated from the TMO over > > the price increases. > > > > Malnak teaches SCI? > Er, meant to ask "*Farokh* teaches SCI?" To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonybliss_ff > wrote: > > > > Correction! > > No one is *compelled* to participate in "The Enlightened > > Sentencing Program" developed ny Farrokh. It's an option made > > available, and accepted by the *choice* of the participant after > they > > learn what the program entails. They take *responsibility* for > their > > *choice* and their own lives. > > > > The stories of the participants--in their own words--which you can > > find on the TESP web site can be quite moving. > > > > The whole civil liberties question has already been dealt with on > this > > issue, I believe, even more so with the program no longer being > > associated with the TM movement. > > > > > > ** > > Unless the court rejects the thinking by the Malnak court (certainly > always a possibility in American jurisprudence), the court will find > that TM amounts to establishment of religion, whether the convict is > compelled to do so or offered TM as an option. All the elements that > made the Malnak court find TM/SCI to be a religious practice are in > place, even though Anklesaria has disassociated from the TMO over > the price increases. > Malnak teaches SCI? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity wrote: > > > > http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/4/112006e.asp > > > > Jody (Guruphiliac) comments quite rightly: > > > > That bulwark of spiritual ignorance impeding progress and cultural > > evolution, the American Family Association, is going after the > judge > > who sentenced a crack-smoking vote defrauder to a course in > TM™. > > Actually, it's TMSM, or Transcendental Meditation Stress > Management, > > and not affiliated with the Madharishi anymore.Leading the charge > for > > the AFA is lawyer Brian Fahling:"You've got a governmental actor > who's > > ordering an individual to participate in something that perhaps may > > run contrary to their own particular beliefs and belief system." > > Still, the attorney says he is not really surprised by the judge's > > order because it is consistent with a larger trend toward > > secularization that is progressing in America.Wait a minute... The > > government is ordering an individual to participate in something > that > > is being construed as a religious belief, yet the fact of this is > > evidence of the progressing secularization of America?We guess the > guy > > is as uptight about his idea of religion as he looks in his > photograph. > > > http://www.agapepress.org/PhotoArchives/PhotoFiles/LoRes/BFahling_LoR > es.jpg > > > > Who'da thunk that?What he means to say is that TM™ is the > wrong > > religion. They all are... except his. There is no doubt the guy > would > > be flipping cartwheels if the judge had sentenced the girl to > attend a > > Southern Baptist church instead. It would have been much harsher > > outcome for the poor thing if you asked us. > > > > http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/ > > > > ** > > Not exactly a surprise, in fact I was wondering why there had not > been a challenge earlier, given the Malnak ruling years ago (1979 -- > > Bunches of reasons: 1) it works; 2) the ruling was EXTREMELY limiated in scope and even if it were not, it was a lower-court ruling, so it wouldn'tbeconsidered binding precedent in another state; 3) times have changed with faith-based initiatives all over the place --no Christian organization will dare bring a lawsuit challenging TM when a ruling against TM would make THEIR initiatives vulnerable also. http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Gen_Couns_to_SD.html ). > > And, although the AFA would certainly not have objected to the > convict being sentenced to a Baptist church, the higher courts would > have objected to this also. > > The courts are almost certainly going to see somebody sentenced to > TM as violating the establishment clause of the U.S. Constitution, Not really. > which, along with the price increases everywhere except India, makes > India the place to promote TM now -- a few candles lit around the > world outside of India has been accomplished, but the 800+ million > Hindus of Indias are going to have to be the lighthouse for the > world from here on. > Again, not really. Lynch is a real go-getter. He may not be able to raise $7 billion directly, but he can certainly get matching funds lesser amounts from larger corporations. The private school that teaches TM that is mentioned on his website gets its funding from major corporations after all. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- anon_couscous_ff wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On the surface -- it feels good. At a deeper level, it raises
> > > > questions: can other judges offer prayer and bible study as
an
> > > > alternative. Or attandance in a stict muslim madras(sp)? Or
as an
> > > > apprentice in the Moonies' programs? Or attendance at a 12
part tantra
> > > > sex seminar?* How about a year with Scientology?
> > >
> > > When those programs offer reams of data demonstrating their
> > > efficacy, great. Let's put them to work.
> > >
> >
> > You fool! Tom Cruise has already studied the history of
> > psycho-therapy. ("HAVE YOU? !!"). What more do you
need!!
> > :)
>
> Or when Tom says it's okay -- I meant to say that, and forgot.
>
Tom Cruise comes from a nightmare background, so it's not hard to
understand why he seems off:
http://tinyurl.com/ek52j
"As Tom Cruise prepares to be a proud papa again, he has implied
there's one man he definitely will not be taking lessons in
daddyhood from.
His own father.
The War of the Worlds star says in the upcoming issue of Parade
magazine that his father, Thomas Cruise Mapother III, who died in
the mid-'80s of cancer, was abusive.
"He was a bully and a coward. He was the kind of person where, if
something goes wrong, they kick you," Cruise said. "It was a great
lesson in my life--how he'd lull you in, make you feel safe and
then, bang!"
Even when he was a child he felt his dad was someone to watch out
for. "For me, it was like, 'There's something wrong with this guy.
Don't trust him. Be careful around him.' There's that anxiety,"
Cruise divulged. His mother, Mary Lee, divorced his dad in 1974.
Cruise said he approached his father for a reconciliation (sometime
between Risky Business and Top Gun), when Mapother was on his
deathbed. "He would only meet me on the basis that I didn't ask him
anything about the past," the 43-year-old actor said.
The estranged father and son reunited, but there was no closure to
be had. "When I saw him in pain," Cruise reminisced, "I
thought, 'Wow, what a lonely life.' He was in his late 40s. It was
sad."
And although going to school was a chance to flee his unhappy home,
the classroom offered little solace for a young Cruise. Apparently,
no one realized they were picking on the future "Tom Cruise"
because, as a boy, he was harassed in the halls quite a bit.
"So many times the big bully comes up, pushes me," Cruise
remembered. "Your heart's pounding, you sweat and you feel like
you're going to vomit...I don't like bullies."
To subscribe, send a message to:
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- anon_couscous_ff wrote: > > > > On the surface -- it feels good. At a deeper level, it raises > > questions: can other judges offer prayer and bible study as an > > alternative. Or attandance in a stict muslim madras(sp)? Or as an > > apprentice in the Moonies' programs? Or attendance at a 12 part tantra > > sex seminar?* How about a year with Scientology? > > When those programs offer reams of data demonstrating their > efficacy, great. Let's put them to work. > Ah,but all TM data is suspect because it is, well, TM data. Never mind if many/most/all of the scientists working on the study don't practice TM. If its TM, its fake data, by definition. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonybliss_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Correction! > No one is *compelled* to participate in "The Enlightened > Sentencing Program" developed ny Farrokh. It's an option made > available, and accepted by the *choice* of the participant after they > learn what the program entails. They take *responsibility* for their > *choice* and their own lives. > > The stories of the participants--in their own words--which you can > find on the TESP web site can be quite moving. > > The whole civil liberties question has already been dealt with on this > issue, I believe, even more so with the program no longer being > associated with the TM movement. > And only because Farokh is every bit as arrogant in his own way as the rest of the TMO. I'm pretty sure that he could have gotten David Lynch to pay the bill for anyone sentenced to practice TM, but its doubtful that he even considered trying. So now there's a schism where there didn't need to be one because someone was too proud to ask someone else for funding. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonybliss_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Correction! > No one is *compelled* to participate in "The Enlightened > Sentencing Program" developed ny Farrokh. It's an option made > available, and accepted by the *choice* of the participant after they > learn what the program entails. They take *responsibility* for their > *choice* and their own lives. > > The stories of the participants--in their own words--which you can > find on the TESP web site can be quite moving. > > The whole civil liberties question has already been dealt with on this > issue, I believe, even more so with the program no longer being > associated with the TM movement. > > ** Unless the court rejects the thinking by the Malnak court (certainly always a possibility in American jurisprudence), the court will find that TM amounts to establishment of religion, whether the convict is compelled to do so or offered TM as an option. All the elements that made the Malnak court find TM/SCI to be a religious practice are in place, even though Anklesaria has disassociated from the TMO over the price increases. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > While he's often right on, I think Jody (Guruphiliac) missed > the boat on this one. While the lawyer in question may be > Christian, what he's saying in his lawsuit is *correct*: > it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* > to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of > meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. Did you note that this sentence was instead of jail time. IOW, basically a parole? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/4/112006e.asp > > Jody (Guruphiliac) comments quite rightly: > > That bulwark of spiritual ignorance impeding progress and cultural > evolution, the American Family Association, is going after the judge > who sentenced a crack-smoking vote defrauder to a course in TM™. > Actually, it's TMSM, or Transcendental Meditation Stress Management, > and not affiliated with the Madharishi anymore.Leading the charge for > the AFA is lawyer Brian Fahling:"You've got a governmental actor who's > ordering an individual to participate in something that perhaps may > run contrary to their own particular beliefs and belief system." > Still, the attorney says he is not really surprised by the judge's > order because it is consistent with a larger trend toward > secularization that is progressing in America.Wait a minute... The > government is ordering an individual to participate in something that > is being construed as a religious belief, yet the fact of this is > evidence of the progressing secularization of America?We guess the guy > is as uptight about his idea of religion as he looks in his photograph. > http://www.agapepress.org/PhotoArchives/PhotoFiles/LoRes/BFahling_LoR es.jpg > > Who'da thunk that?What he means to say is that TM™ is the wrong > religion. They all are... except his. There is no doubt the guy would > be flipping cartwheels if the judge had sentenced the girl to attend a > Southern Baptist church instead. It would have been much harsher > outcome for the poor thing if you asked us. > > http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/ > ** Not exactly a surprise, in fact I was wondering why there had not been a challenge earlier, given the Malnak ruling years ago (1979 -- http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Gen_Couns_to_SD.html ). And, although the AFA would certainly not have objected to the convict being sentenced to a Baptist church, the higher courts would have objected to this also. The courts are almost certainly going to see somebody sentenced to TM as violating the establishment clause of the U.S. Constitution, which, along with the price increases everywhere except India, makes India the place to promote TM now -- a few candles lit around the world outside of India has been accomplished, but the 800+ million Hindus of Indias are going to have to be the lighthouse for the world from here on. Bob Brigante http://geocities.com/bbrigante To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
Comment below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: **SNIP** > > To me, the Enlightened Sentencing Program isn't justified > because other programs are religiously slanted, but because > the ESP's been demonstrated effective regardless of the > probationer's beliefs. That's why Judge Mason considered > it in the first place, and why a growing circle of his colleagues > support it. > > It's the old argument that if you can measure results and > replicate them, it's hard to classify the program as religious. > > Some spiritually based programs can't be passed along to > non-believers. To illustrate, I'll retell a story I read in a > biography of Mother Teresa. > > Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity work in close > quarters with people who have highly contagious diseases. > Yet the Missionaries get sick much less than Indian > government workers who deal with the same people. > > Government managers asked Mother Teresa to teach > them her methods in order to spare the health of > government social services workers. Mother Teresa > said, "I can't teach you my methods because I don't > have any. I believe the key to our good health is this: > we see the people we aid as the suffering body of > Christ. You cannot ask your people to take that point > of view, hence, the good health we enjoy is out of > your reach." [my paraphrase, of course] > > If Farrokh were asking his students to adopt an attitude > or belief, the Enlightened Sentencing Program would > have a problem -- or, let's say, bigger problems than > it has. But he's not. > **END** My comments that Farrokh's meditation was no more religiously slanted (and even less so) than other programs ordered as part of a person's probation was more addressed to Barry's assertion that no judge should compel participation in an activity that was religious in nature (to some degree) than to yours. And, for what it's worth, the participation of probationers in these other programs (both quasi-religious, religious or secular) also have a track record of success (once again, to some degree) in helping probationers stay out of jail and prison. As you point out, the ESP doesn't ask for the probationers to adopt an attitude of belief, but other programs that do demand some portion of belief can similarly point to positive results. Probably not on as profound a level but good enough to be enshrined in the criminal justice system. The Mother Teresa and non-believers story isn't totally apt in this Christian-dominated culture. Lots and lots of folks "find Jesus" in the jails and prisons of this country, whereas I'd expect relatively few do in India. So social services that are Christian-based don't stand out in this culture while something as positive and benign as the ESP, even without any belief component, is still an oddity and subject to a level of critique far more strict. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- Marek Reavis wrote: > > There are lots of orders and conditions given in any grant of > probation and they frequently involve participation in quasi- > religious programs like AA or even church conducted programs with > very heavy Christian components (Teen Challenge, Rescue Mission, > etc.). So to the degree that meditating using a mantra derived from > Hindu tantric sources has anything to do with religion, it's no > different from other terms and conditions given thousands of > probationers. To me, the Enlightened Sentencing Program isn't justified because other programs are religiously slanted, but because the ESP's been demonstrated effective regardless of the probationer's beliefs. That's why Judge Mason considered it in the first place, and why a growing circle of his colleagues support it. It's the old argument that if you can measure results and replicate them, it's hard to classify the program as religious. Some spiritually based programs can't be passed along to non-believers. To illustrate, I'll retell a story I read in a biography of Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity work in close quarters with people who have highly contagious diseases. Yet the Missionaries get sick much less than Indian government workers who deal with the same people. Government managers asked Mother Teresa to teach them her methods in order to spare the health of government social services workers. Mother Teresa said, "I can't teach you my methods because I don't have any. I believe the key to our good health is this: we see the people we aid as the suffering body of Christ. You cannot ask your people to take that point of view, hence, the good health we enjoy is out of your reach." [my paraphrase, of course] If Farrokh were asking his students to adopt an attitude or belief, the Enlightened Sentencing Program would have a problem -- or, let's say, bigger problems than it has. But he's not. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- anon_couscous_ff wrote:
> > >
> > > On the surface -- it feels good. At a deeper level, it raises
> > > questions: can other judges offer prayer and bible study as an
> > > alternative. Or attandance in a stict muslim madras(sp)? Or as an
> > > apprentice in the Moonies' programs? Or attendance at a 12 part tantra
> > > sex seminar?* How about a year with Scientology?
> >
> > When those programs offer reams of data demonstrating their
> > efficacy, great. Let's put them to work.
> >
>
> You fool! Tom Cruise has already studied the history of
> psycho-therapy. ("HAVE YOU? !!"). What more do you need!!
> :)
Or when Tom says it's okay -- I meant to say that, and forgot.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
Comment below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* > > to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of > > meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. > > I don't believe compulsion enters in; I believe the parolee > decides whether to participate in the program. I've forgotten > the details. > > The dicey question might be whether the parolee gets > easier terms as a result of participation. Again, I don't recall. > > This question is kinda like the grammar question I commented > on a moment ago. I don't know what the rules are, but I know > what feels right, and it feels like the Enlightened Sentencing > Program is a great thing. > **END** The meditation offered through the Enlightened Sentencing program is offered to certain criminal defendants as an order of Probation, not Parole. Parole is a type of supervision one is subjec to upon release from prison. Probation is offered to someonw who is *not* going to prison (at least not right now and unless, perhaps, they violate the terms and conditions of their probation). It's a kind of conditional release. There are lots of orders and conditions given in any grant of probation and they frequently involve participation in quasi- religious programs like AA or even church conducted programs with very heavy Christian components (Teen Challenge, Rescue Mission, etc.). So to the degree that meditating using a mantra derived from Hindu tantric sources has anything to do with religion, it's no different from other terms and conditions given thousands of probationers. And since most meditators don't have much of an inkling of the link to Hinduism, other than a cursory summary of the meditation's origins within that cultural context it seems that it is even less offensive than commonly accepted probation orders. A criminal defendant can always reject probation if they object to any of the terms but that's rarely the case as most will agree to almost anything if that means they can get out of jail and/or avoid prison. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- anon_couscous_ff wrote: > > On the surface -- it feels good. At a deeper level, it raises > questions: can other judges offer prayer and bible study as an > alternative. Or attandance in a stict muslim madras(sp)? Or as an > apprentice in the Moonies' programs? Or attendance at a 12 part tantra > sex seminar?* How about a year with Scientology? When those programs offer reams of data demonstrating their efficacy, great. Let's put them to work. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- anon_couscous_ff wrote:
> >
> > On the surface -- it feels good. At a deeper level, it raises
> > questions: can other judges offer prayer and bible study as an
> > alternative. Or attandance in a stict muslim madras(sp)? Or as an
> > apprentice in the Moonies' programs? Or attendance at a 12 part tantra
> > sex seminar?* How about a year with Scientology?
>
> When those programs offer reams of data demonstrating their
> efficacy, great. Let's put them to work.
>
You fool! Tom Cruise has already studied the history of
psycho-therapy. ("HAVE YOU? !!"). What more do you need!!
:)
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > While he's often right on, I think Jody (Guruphiliac) missed > the boat on this one. While the lawyer in question may be > Christian, what he's saying in his lawsuit is *correct*: > it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* > to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of > meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. > > Maharishi never got this, IMO because he's a control > freak who *already* believes that he should be able to > run the lives of his teachers the way *he* feels they > should be run. It's a short hop from believing that to > believing that he has the right to mandate the lifestyle > of everyone else in society. And he's on record as > believing that he *does* have that right, and that TM > *should* be mandated by governments. > > Talk about missing the point. Personally, I don't see > that much difference between Maharishi's stance on this > subject and that of the Ayatollahs in Iran or Afghanistan > who wish to "enforce" Islam, or that of religious fanatics > in every society and in every time who have felt they had > the right to impose their beliefs on others. > > The real issue is freedom of choice with regard to one's > spiritual or meditational practices. In my opinion, anyone > who is willing to take that freedom away from someone, while > claiming it's "for their own good," is on the same level as > the despot or dictator who would take away their physical > freedom. > > > I thought that the defendents were usually given a choice of 2 sentences, one with meditation, and one without that has more 'traditional' punishment. Does anyone know for sure? JohnY' To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" > wrote: > > --- TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > > > it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* > > > to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of > > > meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. > > > > I don't believe compulsion enters in; I believe the parolee > > decides whether to participate in the program. I've forgotten > > the details. > > > > The dicey question might be whether the parolee gets > > easier terms as a result of participation. Again, I don't recall. > > > > This question is kinda like the grammar question I commented > > on a moment ago. I don't know what the rules are, but I know > > what feels right, and it feels like the Enlightened Sentencing > > Program is a great thing. > > That's cool. Doesn't feel that way to me. > Feels like the top of a very steep and very > slippery slope to me. On the surface -- it feels good. At a deeper level, it raises questions: can other judges offer prayer and bible study as an alternative. Or attandance in a stict muslim madras(sp)? Or as an apprentice in the Moonies' programs? Or attendance at a 12 part tantra sex seminar?* How about a year with Scientology? *Don't laugh, when I was in college, Herbert Marcuse -- an emmensely popular professor and author -- and a Marxist -- was teaching at a sister campus, teaching in his classes that not getting enough sex was the root of most social problems and all wars. Governor Ronald Reagan was not amused and tried to fire the tenured professor. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* > > to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of > > meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. > > I don't believe compulsion enters in; I believe the parolee > decides whether to participate in the program. I've forgotten > the details. > > The dicey question might be whether the parolee gets > easier terms as a result of participation. Again, I don't recall. > > This question is kinda like the grammar question I commented > on a moment ago. I don't know what the rules are, but I know > what feels right, and it feels like the Enlightened Sentencing > Program is a great thing. That's cool. Doesn't feel that way to me. Feels like the top of a very steep and very slippery slope to me. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
Correction! No one is *compelled* to participate in "The Enlightened Sentencing Program" developed ny Farrokh. It's an option made available, and accepted by the *choice* of the participant after they learn what the program entails. They take *responsibility* for their *choice* and their own lives. The stories of the participants--in their own words--which you can find on the TESP web site can be quite moving. The whole civil liberties question has already been dealt with on this issue, I believe, even more so with the program no longer being associated with the TM movement. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > While he's often right on, I think Jody (Guruphiliac) missed > the boat on this one. While the lawyer in question may be > Christian, what he's saying in his lawsuit is *correct*: > it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* > to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of > meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. > > Maharishi never got this, IMO because he's a control > freak who *already* believes that he should be able to > run the lives of his teachers the way *he* feels they > should be run. It's a short hop from believing that to > believing that he has the right to mandate the lifestyle > of everyone else in society. And he's on record as > believing that he *does* have that right, and that TM > *should* be mandated by governments. > > Talk about missing the point. Personally, I don't see > that much difference between Maharishi's stance on this > subject and that of the Ayatollahs in Iran or Afghanistan > who wish to "enforce" Islam, or that of religious fanatics > in every society and in every time who have felt they had > the right to impose their beliefs on others. > > The real issue is freedom of choice with regard to one's > spiritual or meditational practices. In my opinion, anyone > who is willing to take that freedom away from someone, while > claiming it's "for their own good," is on the same level as > the despot or dictator who would take away their physical > freedom. > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity wrote: > > > > http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/4/112006e.asp > > > > Jody (Guruphiliac) comments quite rightly: > > > > That bulwark of spiritual ignorance impeding progress and cultural > > evolution, the American Family Association, is going after the > judge > > who sentenced a crack-smoking vote defrauder to a course in > TM™. > > Actually, it's TMSM, or Transcendental Meditation Stress > Management, > > and not affiliated with the Madharishi anymore.Leading the charge > for > > the AFA is lawyer Brian Fahling:"You've got a governmental actor > who's > > ordering an individual to participate in something that perhaps may > > run contrary to their own particular beliefs and belief system." > > Still, the attorney says he is not really surprised by the judge's > > order because it is consistent with a larger trend toward > > secularization that is progressing in America.Wait a minute... The > > government is ordering an individual to participate in something > that > > is being construed as a religious belief, yet the fact of this is > > evidence of the progressing secularization of America?We guess the > guy > > is as uptight about his idea of religion as he looks in his > photograph. > > > http://www.agapepress.org/PhotoArchives/PhotoFiles/LoRes/BFahling_LoR > es.jpg > > > > Who'da thunk that?What he means to say is that TM™ is the > wrong > > religion. They all are... except his. There is no doubt the guy > would > > be flipping cartwheels if the judge had sentenced the girl to > attend a > > Southern Baptist church instead. It would have been much harsher > > outcome for the poor thing if you asked us. > > > > http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
--- TurquoiseB wrote: > > it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* > to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of > meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. I don't believe compulsion enters in; I believe the parolee decides whether to participate in the program. I've forgotten the details. The dicey question might be whether the parolee gets easier terms as a result of participation. Again, I don't recall. This question is kinda like the grammar question I commented on a moment ago. I don't know what the rules are, but I know what feels right, and it feels like the Enlightened Sentencing Program is a great thing. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fundies slam TM Judge
While he's often right on, I think Jody (Guruphiliac) missed the boat on this one. While the lawyer in question may be Christian, what he's saying in his lawsuit is *correct*: it's fuckin' inappropriate for *any* judge *anywhere* to be able to compel *anyone* to practice *any* form of meditation or spiritual practice for *any* reason. Period. Maharishi never got this, IMO because he's a control freak who *already* believes that he should be able to run the lives of his teachers the way *he* feels they should be run. It's a short hop from believing that to believing that he has the right to mandate the lifestyle of everyone else in society. And he's on record as believing that he *does* have that right, and that TM *should* be mandated by governments. Talk about missing the point. Personally, I don't see that much difference between Maharishi's stance on this subject and that of the Ayatollahs in Iran or Afghanistan who wish to "enforce" Islam, or that of religious fanatics in every society and in every time who have felt they had the right to impose their beliefs on others. The real issue is freedom of choice with regard to one's spiritual or meditational practices. In my opinion, anyone who is willing to take that freedom away from someone, while claiming it's "for their own good," is on the same level as the despot or dictator who would take away their physical freedom. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/4/112006e.asp > > Jody (Guruphiliac) comments quite rightly: > > That bulwark of spiritual ignorance impeding progress and cultural > evolution, the American Family Association, is going after the judge > who sentenced a crack-smoking vote defrauder to a course in TM™. > Actually, it's TMSM, or Transcendental Meditation Stress Management, > and not affiliated with the Madharishi anymore.Leading the charge for > the AFA is lawyer Brian Fahling:"You've got a governmental actor who's > ordering an individual to participate in something that perhaps may > run contrary to their own particular beliefs and belief system." > Still, the attorney says he is not really surprised by the judge's > order because it is consistent with a larger trend toward > secularization that is progressing in America.Wait a minute... The > government is ordering an individual to participate in something that > is being construed as a religious belief, yet the fact of this is > evidence of the progressing secularization of America?We guess the guy > is as uptight about his idea of religion as he looks in his photograph. > http://www.agapepress.org/PhotoArchives/PhotoFiles/LoRes/BFahling_LoR es.jpg > > Who'da thunk that?What he means to say is that TM™ is the wrong > religion. They all are... except his. There is no doubt the guy would > be flipping cartwheels if the judge had sentenced the girl to attend a > Southern Baptist church instead. It would have been much harsher > outcome for the poor thing if you asked us. > > http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/ > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
