Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Yes, that is the purported intent of Rick's site. It started out that way, but now has attracted all the people who make a living doing this stuff. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : What becomes more unique and compelling about Batgap is [Rick's] being able to find and give voice to the abiding-awakened who are not necessarily well known, who are not professional or who have no organization around them. .
RE: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend go work on it. First, Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck Legal troubles? What might those be, pray tell? Feel free to give me category suggestions for specific individuals and I may implement them. . http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=3920196/grpspId=1705077076/msgId=385442/stime=1401626068 http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywarid=515FB27823A7407Ea=10001310322279js=noresp=img
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
In a spectrum of practitioners : -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; as analogous to, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in typology. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by type, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their abiding experience and their spiritual affect on others, it seems some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as awakened practitioners or teachers, long time practiced at helping others spiritually or transformational for others also just by being of their field effect of presence lending spiritual coherence. Some of these are teachers in nature, while some may glow in the closet and watch. And then, their degree of altruistic organization.. More in line with a western scholarly discernment of spirituality and spiritual [the illumined/awakened] teachers, could be a spectrum of practitioners : -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; as analogous to, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in typology. See the related chapter on western mysticism in the 1891 scholarly monograph, The History of the Amana Society or Community of True Inspiration by Perkins and Wick in the link: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/communal-studies-forum/mg7lOWuASfs https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/communal-studies-forum/mg7lOWuASfs Another example of the relative blending of spiritual typology is George Fox, a spiritual teacher promulgating quietism who early on was also a pietist in the pietistic sense of doing or working at energetic subtle system healing but then stopped doing that work publicly because it distracted people from what he was primarily teaching then in that era about a fundamental value of the spirituality of quietism in practice of inner silent meditation and then also the cultivating spiritual value of the field effect of group practice of meditation. Hence the early Society of Friends as a spiritual movement. Friends [Quakers] got in to a lot of trouble for that teaching from institutional formal and ideological religionists of that day. The mystic separatists who were the antecedence of Amana in America were inspirationist by spirituality type in practice and as a formed communal spiritual group employing also daily quietism in substantial silent transcendental meditative practice. One can find illumined people in satsanga teaching quietism and piety blended as meditational in guided chakra or subtle energy knowledge. Someone like Ammachi is teaching and bringing pietism in the help she gives through the field effect of darshan and her spiritual practices as modalities to people's subtle systems. Her spiritual practices can fuse quietism [meditational] and subtle system spiritual work [piety]. As an illumined person Ammachi evidently is very much like the mystic person in modalities of Mother Ann, founder of the Shakers. Janet Sussman, also interviewed on Batgap is a great example of this blend too, adept at helping the subtle systems of folks while also being founded as a quietist. It seems that one does not see so many Ritam Bhara Pragya or 'inspired' people as modality as often; however, Connie Huebner, interviewed on Batgap, is a fabulous example of a classic school of inspiration teachers operating in Ritam Bhara Pragya, very much like the mystics of the old Amana Colony tradition going way back into a European lineage of mysticism. Someone like Francis Bennett more recently coming out now awakened on batgap.com it seems is teaching in a blush as a Quietist. Quietism is an earlier word to transcendentalism. Francis now it seems is one in old quietism like TM'ers are more narrowly of modern day transcendentalist quietism. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of course for his teaching of quietism is better known in his promulgation using transcendental meditation as modality. Using these older established scholarly differentiation between Quietism, Piety, and Inspiration then discernment all becomes much more substantial as a means to looking at mystics, spiritual teachers and history this way. -Buck in the Dome More in line with western scholarly discernment of spirituality [for individuals or groups] and spiritual [illumined/awakened] teachers, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in western typology become somewhat analogous to modern culture as, -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; . -Buck In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
More in line with a western scholarly discernment of spirituality and spiritual [the illumined/awakened] teachers, could be a spectrum of : -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; as analogous to, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in typology. See the related chapter on western mysticism in the 1891 scholarly monograph, The History of the Amana Society or Community of True Inspiration by Perkins and Wick in the link: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/communal-studies-forum/mg7lOWuASfs https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/communal-studies-forum/mg7lOWuASfs Another example of the relative blending of spiritual typology is George Fox, a spiritual teacher promulgating quietism who early on was also a pietist in the pietistic sense of doing or working at energetic subtle system healing but then stopped doing that work publicly because it distracted people from what he was primarily teaching then in that era about a fundamental value of the spirituality of quietism in practice of inner silent meditation and then also the cultivating spiritual value of the field effect of group practice of meditation. Hence the early Society of Friends as a spiritual movement. Friends [Quakers] got in to a lot of trouble for that teaching from institutional formal and ideological religionists of that day. The mystic separatists who were the antecedence of Amana in America were inspirationist by spirituality type in practice and as a formed communal spiritual group employing also daily quietism in substantial silent transcendental meditative practice. One can find illumined people in satsanga teaching quietism and piety blended as meditational in guided chakra or subtle energy knowledge. Someone like Ammachi is teaching and bringing pietism in the help she gives through the field effect of darshan and her spiritual practices as modalities to people's subtle systems. Her spiritual practices can fuse quietism [meditational] and subtle system spiritual work [piety]. As an illumined person Ammachi evidently is very much like the mystic person in modalities of Mother Ann, founder of the Shakers. Janet Sussman, also interviewed on Batgap is a great example of this blend too, adept at helping the subtle systems of folks while also being founded as a quietist. It seems that one does not see so many Ritam Bhara Pragya or 'inspired' people as modality as often; however, Connie Huebner, interviewed on Batgap, is a fabulous example of a classic school of inspiration teachers operating in Ritam Bhara Pragya, very much like the mystics of the old Amana Colony tradition going way back into a European lineage of mysticism. Someone like Francis Bennett more recently coming out now awakened on batgap.com it seems is teaching in a blush as a Quietist. Quietism is an earlier word to transcendentalism. Francis now it seems is one in old quietism like TM'ers are more narrowly of modern day transcendentalist quietism. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of course for his teaching of quietism is better known in his promulgation using transcendental meditation as modality. Using these older established scholarly differentiation between Quietism, Piety, and Inspiration then discernment all becomes much more substantial as a means to looking at mystics, spiritual teachers and history this way. -Buck in the Dome More in line with western scholarly discernment of spirituality [for individuals or groups] and spiritual [illumined/awakened] teachers, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in western typology become somewhat analogous to modern culture as, -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; . -Buck In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from the spirituality typology of these three established categories, the channel-ers seem to fall over in to their own different category of 'spiritism'. That is fair and understandable. Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend go work on it. First, Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
The mystic separatists who were the antecedence of Amana in America were inspirationist by spirituality type in practice and as a formed communal spiritual group employing also daily quietism in substantial silent transcendental meditative practice. One can find illumined people in satsanga teaching quietism and piety blended as meditational in guided chakra or subtle energy knowledge. Someone like Ammachi is teaching and bringing pietism in the help she gives through the field effect of darshan and her spiritual practices as modalities to people's subtle systems. Her spiritual practices can fuse quietism [meditational] and subtle system spiritual work [piety]. As an illumined person Ammachi evidently is very much like the mystic person in modalities of Mother Ann, founder of the Shakers. Janet Sussman is a great example of that too, adept at helping the subtle systems of folks while also being founded as a quietist. It seems that one does not see so many Ritam Bhara Pragya or 'inspired' people as modality as often; however, Connie Huebner, interviewed on Batgap, is a fabulous example of a classic school of inspiration teachers operating in Ritam Bhara Pragya, very much like the mystics of the old Amana Colony tradition going way back into a European lineage of mysticism. Someone like Francis Bennett more recently coming out now awakened on batgap.com is teaching now in a blush as a Quietist. Quietism is an earlier word to transcendentalism. Francis now it seems is one in old quietism like TM'ers are more narrowly modern day transcendentalist quietism. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of course for his teaching of quietism, is better known in his promulgation using transcendental meditation as modality. It all becomes much more fun to look at mystics, spiritual teachers and history this way. More in line with western scholarly discernment of spirituality [for individuals or groups] and spiritual [illumined/awakened] teachers, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in western typology become somewhat analogous to modern culture as, -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; . -Buck In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from the spirituality typology of these three established categories, the channel-ers seem to fall over in to their own different category of 'spiritism'. That is fair and understandable. Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend go work on it. First, Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:54 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Curtis, do you remember what guys you saw that proclaimed their enlightenment in those days? C: The most famous were Robin and Andy Reimer. But there were others who were on the no admittance list at the College of Natural Law in DC. I remember their faces but not all their names although I wouldn't post them if I did. One was even a Minister which in the pre raja days was the hottest ticket. It was a weird position for me to be in to have to keep him out as a lowly sidha. Once I even had to physically chase him out in a weird human billiards angle game! The finessing of experience groups was very interesting in retrospect. The TM model doesn't have a path for people to be recognized as enlightened. This was exacerbated by Maharishi's habit of exiling people who you would assume would have achieved it like Jerry Jarvis. I became pretty good friends with a few guys who were personally sent away to movement Siberia facilities after being skin boys or other top positions close to Maharishi. The Florida Capital became a place they would keep people in after the Vedic Atoms left. It gave you a very clear idea to keep your head down Fritzy Boy! Your position in the movement was at the whim of the master. And the years of being a good little outcast never really took away the taint of being sent away. I even had Neil Patterson talk shit Jerry Jarvis when I invited him to lecture at the DC center. I had worked with Jerry pretty closely at MIU and really liked him. But Neil threatened me with losing my center chairman position for inviting someone with what he called old thinking to speak to the group. The story of Jerry would make a fantastic Greek tragedy. A bit off topic of your question but it triggered that memory. Anyway there were more than a few who announced their whatever, and it never ended well. I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Who cares what a couple of ex-TM teachers think? You guys failed, so your opinions are worth basically, nothing. If you were enlightened, then possibly, but just because you worked for Maharishi 40 years ago, we're supposed to take you seriously? Not a chance, and quit trying to pull rank... ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:54 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Curtis, do you remember what guys you saw that proclaimed their enlightenment in those days? C: The most famous were Robin and Andy Reimer. But there were others who were on the no admittance list at the College of Natural Law in DC. I remember their faces but not all their names although I wouldn't post them if I did. One was even a Minister which in the pre raja days was the hottest ticket. It was a weird position for me to be in to have to keep him out as a lowly sidha. Once I even had to physically chase him out in a weird human billiards angle game! The finessing of experience groups was very interesting in retrospect. The TM model doesn't have a path for people to be recognized as enlightened. This was exacerbated by Maharishi's habit of exiling people who you would assume would have achieved it like Jerry Jarvis. I became pretty good friends with a few guys who were personally sent away to movement Siberia facilities after being skin boys or other top positions close to Maharishi. The Florida Capital became a place they would keep people in after the Vedic Atoms left. It gave you a very clear idea to keep your head down Fritzy Boy! Your position in the movement was at the whim of the master. And the years of being a good little outcast never really took away the taint of being sent away. I even had Neil Patterson talk shit Jerry Jarvis when I invited him to lecture at the DC center. I had worked with Jerry pretty closely at MIU and really liked him. But Neil threatened me with losing my center chairman position for inviting someone with what he called old thinking to speak to the group. The story of Jerry would make a fantastic Greek tragedy. A bit off topic of your question but it triggered that memory. Anyway there were more than a few who announced their whatever, and it never ended well. I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
So you are disagreeing with Barry - does that also mean you are skeptical of the experiences Curtis relates on these same issues? From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:54 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Curtis, do you remember what guys you saw that proclaimed their enlightenment in those days? C: The most famous were Robin and Andy Reimer. But there were others who were on the no admittance list at the College of Natural Law in DC. I remember their faces but not all their names although I wouldn't post them if I did. One was even a Minister which in the pre raja days was the hottest ticket. It was a weird position for me to be in to have to keep him out as a lowly sidha. Once I even had to physically chase him out in a weird human billiards angle game! The finessing of experience groups was very interesting in retrospect. The TM model doesn't have a path for people to be recognized as enlightened. This was exacerbated by Maharishi's habit of exiling people who you would assume would have achieved it like Jerry Jarvis. I became pretty good friends with a few guys who were personally sent away to movement Siberia facilities after being skin boys or other top positions close to Maharishi. The Florida Capital became a place they would keep people in after the Vedic Atoms left. It gave you a very clear idea to keep your head down Fritzy Boy! Your position in the movement was at the whim of the master. And the years of being a good little outcast never really took away the taint of being sent away. I even had Neil Patterson talk shit Jerry Jarvis when I invited him to lecture at the DC center. I had worked with Jerry pretty closely at MIU and really liked him. But Neil threatened me with losing my center chairman position for inviting someone with what he called old thinking to speak to the group. The story of Jerry would make a fantastic Greek tragedy. A bit off topic of your question but it triggered that memory. Anyway there were more than a few who announced their whatever, and it never ended well. I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult. You'd think other enlightened would welcome another to their fold. And you would think if one were enlightened a teacher who was truly in that state would not only recognize it but know it to be true. We also know there are plenty of suggestible and fringe crazies who believe themselves to not only be illuminated in mind and spirit but to also be ready to step in as the next Messiah. So, weeding out the goofy from the real could be an arduous task if you are dealing with thousands within a Movement. On the other hand, those teachers on a First Class Ego Trip would be the first and the most ruthless in cutting down to size others who might be in danger of taking a place beside them on some pedestal so that wouldn't be okay. All in all a tricky business. Just keep the seekers seeking and make sure they don't get too big for their britches. When you go and disown a former student who thinks they might be on to something, however, you run the risk of those pesky upstarts like Robin taking the reins in their own hand and starting their own little group and then before you know it helicopters are swooping low over your head, lawsuits are blooming and there is general chaos and a tearing out of hair.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
I know nothing about Rymer, but what you describe of his interactions with Maharishi was also true of Robin. There was no conflict between Robin and Maharishi until he showed up with his group (of mostly TM teachers) in Fairfield--seven years or so after he had first claimed enlightenment--and tried to portray himself as the new leader of the TMO. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : I know nothing about Rymer, but what you describe of his interactions with Maharishi was also true of Robin. There was no conflict between Robin and Maharishi until he showed up with his group (of mostly TM teachers) in Fairfield--seven years or so after he had first claimed enlightenment--and tried to portray himself as the new leader of the TMO. Exactly. And Robin was tremendously devoted to Maharishi for a long time after his enlightenment. There had been nothing in Robin's experience that I know of, that indicated to him that Maharishi was either displeased or angry with him. (Not that I think that would have stopped him doing what he felt he had to do from day to day.) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Thanks for speaking up, Steve. I am so tired, as if it isn't obvious, of Barry, who quit the TMO 40 years ago, after having failed both his students, and himself. He then casts these false memories about, as if they were gold, and should be taken Very Seriously. Give me a break - Very Seriously. It really cheapens the reality of what many of us here have been through, and not without our doubts. The last thing I need to hear, is some quitter, transferring his sense of failure onto the org that kicked him out, and those that stuck it through. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Thanks for this correction Steve. The Turq has claimed inside info on something that happened 40 years ago, and why ? Because the others have either moved on or are still around but shun this blog. The Turq is simply stuck in stuff he didn't understand AND that happened 2 generations ago. I feel sorry for him. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Thanks for speaking up, Steve. I am so tired, as if it isn't obvious, of Barry, who quit the TMO 40 years ago, after having failed both his students, and himself. He then casts these false memories about, as if they were gold, and should be taken Very Seriously. Give me a break - Very Seriously. It really cheapens the reality of what many of us here have been through, and not without our doubts. The last thing I need to hear, is some quitter, transferring his sense of failure onto the org that kicked him out, and those that stuck it through. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Thank you for asking Michael. I was a full time, dedicated student and teacher from the years of 1974-1981. I initiated numerous people, gave many advanced lectures, taught many residence courses, and participated in administrative center functions. Now allowing for possible selective memory, I know that tensions would periodically arise among teachers over various issues, but in terms of recommending people for courses, there was never a severe vetting process, at least that I was a part of. We always had a pretty good idea of who was wanting to go to Teacher Training, and it was never a big deal. I always read different books about other teachers, and again, it was never a big deal. I knew many people who read the same books and recommended many to me. The only prohibition was to not see other teachers, as it gave the impression that you were still seeking. If you wish to jump on this as some evidence of cult mentality, go ahead. I never found it to be a big deal. We had our local UC celebrity, Judy M., and she was supposedly close to MMY. On the other hand, she never touted her SOC. But consider Michael, in most teacher/student relationships, or Master/Disciple relationships, I think there is a certain protocol that is followed. The student does not attempt to upstage the teacher. I think TM followed that protocol for the most part. Probably the biggest defection was that of SSRS, And there are various versions of his departure. Curtis remained involved in the organization longer than I did. His experiences were different. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : So you are disagreeing with Barry - does that also mean you are skeptical of the experiences Curtis relates on these same issues? From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Yes, Jim, often Barry's experiences with the TMO don't jibe with my experience. BTW, I had some involvement with the Capital in Ste. Genevieve, Mo. Taught some courses down there. Had peripheral involvement with the buying and building of it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Thanks for speaking up, Steve. I am so tired, as if it isn't obvious, of Barry, who quit the TMO 40 years ago, after having failed both his students, and himself. He then casts these false memories about, as if they were gold, and should be taken Very Seriously. Give me a break - Very Seriously. It really cheapens the reality of what many of us here have been through, and not without our doubts. The last thing I need to hear, is some quitter, transferring his sense of failure onto the org that kicked him out, and those that stuck it through. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Oh yeah, there was a western Mo. 'Capital', and an Eastern Mo. one. I don't know if we ever visited each other's facilities - went up to Fairfield a few times. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Yes, Jim, often Barry's experiences with the TMO don't jibe with my experience. BTW, I had some involvement with the Capital in Ste. Genevieve, Mo. Taught some courses down there. Had peripheral involvement with the buying and building of it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Thanks for speaking up, Steve. I am so tired, as if it isn't obvious, of Barry, who quit the TMO 40 years ago, after having failed both his students, and himself. He then casts these false memories about, as if they were gold, and should be taken Very Seriously. Give me a break - Very Seriously. It really cheapens the reality of what many of us here have been through, and not without our doubts. The last thing I need to hear, is some quitter, transferring his sense of failure onto the org that kicked him out, and those that stuck it through. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic of a controlling cult.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
I appreciate your sharing. I think it is part of Movement history. I have heard similar stories to yours and ones similar to Barry's. One woman I met in Indiana told me of her application process to TTC - she said she answered all the questions honestly and openly including her drug history and when the Center chairman looked it over when she gave it to him, he tore it up right in front of her and as she sat there looking shocked, he pulled another blank form out and said You'll never become a teacher that way. Let me help you fill this one out. And so he did. And she went on TTC and became a TM teacher. I think it depended on where you were as to how people behaved - but I must admit I have heard more stories like Barry's and Curtis' than the other side like yours. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types Thank you for asking Michael. I was a full time, dedicated student and teacher from the years of 1974-1981. I initiated numerous people, gave many advanced lectures, taught many residence courses, and participated in administrative center functions. Now allowing for possible selective memory, I know that tensions would periodically arise among teachers over various issues, but in terms of recommending people for courses, there was never a severe vetting process, at least that I was a part of. We always had a pretty good idea of who was wanting to go to Teacher Training, and it was never a big deal. I always read different books about other teachers, and again, it was never a big deal. I knew many people who read the same books and recommended many to me. The only prohibition was to not see other teachers, as it gave the impression that you were still seeking. If you wish to jump on this as some evidence of cult mentality, go ahead. I never found it to be a big deal. We had our local UC celebrity, Judy M., and she was supposedly close to MMY. On the other hand, she never touted her SOC. But consider Michael, in most teacher/student relationships, or Master/Disciple relationships, I think there is a certain protocol that is followed. The student does not attempt to upstage the teacher. I think TM followed that protocol for the most part. Probably the biggest defection was that of SSRS, And there are various versions of his departure. Curtis remained involved in the organization longer than I did. His experiences were different. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : So you are disagreeing with Barry - does that also mean you are skeptical of the experiences Curtis relates on these same issues? From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims to have achieved what only the leader is supposed to have achieved, and promote the idea that Nobody graduates. This is seen by many of them as *the* most defining characteristic
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Yea, I guess we all had different experiences. I always enjoyed teaching. But also glad that I went on to other pursuits as well. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I appreciate your sharing. I think it is part of Movement history. I have heard similar stories to yours and ones similar to Barry's. One woman I met in Indiana told me of her application process to TTC - she said she answered all the questions honestly and openly including her drug history and when the Center chairman looked it over when she gave it to him, he tore it up right in front of her and as she sat there looking shocked, he pulled another blank form out and said You'll never become a teacher that way. Let me help you fill this one out. And so he did. And she went on TTC and became a TM teacher. I think it depended on where you were as to how people behaved - but I must admit I have heard more stories like Barry's and Curtis' than the other side like yours. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types Thank you for asking Michael. I was a full time, dedicated student and teacher from the years of 1974-1981. I initiated numerous people, gave many advanced lectures, taught many residence courses, and participated in administrative center functions. Now allowing for possible selective memory, I know that tensions would periodically arise among teachers over various issues, but in terms of recommending people for courses, there was never a severe vetting process, at least that I was a part of. We always had a pretty good idea of who was wanting to go to Teacher Training, and it was never a big deal. I always read different books about other teachers, and again, it was never a big deal. I knew many people who read the same books and recommended many to me. The only prohibition was to not see other teachers, as it gave the impression that you were still seeking. If you wish to jump on this as some evidence of cult mentality, go ahead. I never found it to be a big deal. We had our local UC celebrity, Judy M., and she was supposedly close to MMY. On the other hand, she never touted her SOC. But consider Michael, in most teacher/student relationships, or Master/Disciple relationships, I think there is a certain protocol that is followed. The student does not attempt to upstage the teacher. I think TM followed that protocol for the most part. Probably the biggest defection was that of SSRS, And there are various versions of his departure. Curtis remained involved in the organization longer than I did. His experiences were different. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : So you are disagreeing with Barry - does that also mean you are skeptical of the experiences Curtis relates on these same issues? From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types I have to say Barry, when I hear you talk about your experiences in California as as Regional or State Coordinator, it doesn't jibe with my experience in the Midwest, as it pertains to keeping people off course etc. You paint a very severe and petty picture which I do not recognize. P.S. As regards Andy Rymer, as I've reported here previously, during the time I saw him interact with Maharishi, which was around 1977, it was always a very affectionate interaction. There was no competition going on. P.S.S. As regards this ostracizing of anyone who claims to have reached enlightenment, I suspect the protocols in the TM Movement were similar to most any student/teacher relationship in the eastern tradition. But it isn't surprising that you would try to paint this relationship in the worst possible way as it pertains to the TMO. Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I can confirm what Curtis says here, from my earlier Regional Office and State Coordinator days. Other than conducting a Black Mass in the TM center, *nothing* was as likely to get you on Maharishi's Shit List and exiled forever from the movement than announcing your enlightenment. It was an instantaneous way to be dropped from all mailing lists, be barred from any courses, and be shunned by all concerned. As Curtis suggests, this is pretty odd behavior for a group that promises the fastest path to enlightenment. Several scholars who have specialized in the study of spiritual groups have proposed as one of their primary definitions of a cult the tendency to denigrate any student who claims
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
On 5/19/2014 10:53 AM, fleetwood_macnche...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: It really cheapens the reality of what many of us here have been through, and not without our doubts. The last thing I need to hear, is some quitter, transferring his sense of failure onto the org that kicked him out, and those that stuck it through You need to realize that it's not really about the /TMO, TM/ or /TMers/ - /it's all about Judy/. Some of us have read these Barry stories before on Usenet. Almost all of them have been discredited. He's just trying to appeal to the newbies here. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
On 5/19/2014 8:06 AM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Let's face it, that is what constitutes about 80% of your participation here. Almost every post of Barry's, even some movie or TV reviews, contains a subtle, sometimes not so subtle, message to Judy, the only informant that I know about on the internet, who has followed and replied to almost every post sent by him since 1995. It's the attention he craves - /it's all about Judy/. You are just a means to an end, Steve. It's not complicated. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? punditster writes: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? punditster writes: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Rick should get someone much more scholarly to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just some earnest friend. First Rick ought to pull the list from the page for now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? punditster writes: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend work on it. First Rick ought to pull the list from the page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? punditster writes: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Om, In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from the spirituality typology of these three established categories, the channel-ers seem to fall over in to their own category of 'spiritism'. That is fair and understandable. Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend to work on it. First Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? punditster writes: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
On 5/18/2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? According to what I've read, San Harris is a practicing Buddhist, so his experiences would be probably similar to those of other Buddhists - the realization that we are all connected in a non-dual relationship. It's a very powerful realization, one that the Buddha, the first historical yogin in India, described in some detail. I've already listed two books for you to read that would help you understand this, Buddhism Without Beliefs and confessions of a Buddhist Atheist. Buddhist Mindfullness practice is very similar to TM practice - without Hindu beliefs. pundister wrote: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences? Nicely said, now, shall we start with you trying this little experiment with the people you dislike because they find you uninteresting and boorish? Let's see how expansive and all-encompassing your mind can become for this lab test. Let's start with Jim and Judy - first exercise: list all the positive things you are able to appreciate about them and there has to be a minimum of 5 things per person. No sarcasm, only genuine expressed ability to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences. We'll wait - no doubt forever.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
No one is making the case for ranking anyone else, as a human being. This persistent whine of yours, to just level-set everything; there is no enlightenment, no witnessing, no comparative values, for anything is very tiresome. This allows you to hide your spiritual failings, your lack of experience, your lack of understanding of the teacher you worked for, briefly. If it is all the same, and no one is doing anything, then those truly stuck in the mud, such as yourself, are off the hook. Sorry, Charley. You have been involved in one spiritual pursuit or another for decades. And yet you are still deficient in the first step a seeker makes - becoming established in silence. It is too bad, but rather than trying to deny it, just admit it, and get on with your life. Holding up a false image of yourself must be an awful lot of work, pretending to be enlightened, while having no established Being - must be a nightmare for you. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? Perhaps not... On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
More in line with a western scholarly discernment of spirituality and spiritual [illumined/awakened] teachers, those: -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; as somewhat analogous to western, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in typology. -Buck In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from the spirituality typology of these three established categories, the channel-ers seem to fall over in to their own different category of 'spiritism'. That is fair and understandable. Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend go work on it. First, Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? punditster writes: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Maybe Rick can obtain a portable EEG machine and see what the EEG coherence of each awkened person is like. My guess is that there are going to be distinct differences between traditions, and there will be, if you look closely enough, differences in experience as well. For example, TMers describe things in terms of Self. I've seen interviews where the person claims to have no self at all. This fits with the fact that TM enhances the connectivity between the self centers of the brain and the rest of the brain, while many practices actually disrupt it. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? punditster writes: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Buck, I probably won't forward your additional and very interesting comments to my friend. At this point, I'm leaving it up to Rick meister (-: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:23 AM, lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Maybe Rick can obtain a portable EEG machine and see what the EEG coherence of each awkened person is like. My guess is that there are going to be distinct differences between traditions, and there will be, if you look closely enough, differences in experience as well. For example, TMers describe things in terms of Self. I've seen interviews where the person claims to have no self at all. This fits with the fact that TM enhances the connectivity between the self centers of the brain and the rest of the brain, while many practices actually disrupt it. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him to be on Buddha at the Gas Pump anyway? punditster writes: Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide consider the gods to be sacred. But, these entities are not capable of offering Buddhists the saving grace, because they are not enlightened. A Buddhist believes in enlightenment - that's why they are referred to as Buddhists- enlightenment is not dependent on deities to instill the gnostic insight. There are clear parallels between the Vajrayana and the Vedanta point of view. It's not complicated. Buck, I think the key word here is Buddha- maybe Harris is a practicing Buddhist. Go figure. There are some who would label all Buddhists atheists, but that is not really correct. Buddhists admit that there are many entities in the universe that can't be seen by man. Millions of Buddhist worldwide
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
To Share: But what if the criteria to be considered a dentist was just to put a sign in front of your house that said dentist? To Barry: I resonate with what you wrote and that is the direction of my thinking on altered states of consciousness of all kinds. We have to drop the traditionally informed pretense that we know what these experiences mean. On the other hand there is also an need to acknowledge that they do exist and might be interesting, especially if we could get more date from outside tight belief system interpretations. I am hoping that Sam's book in the fall will be along these lines and open up this discussion to a broader audience. Buck doesn't know anything about what Sam's experiences are. This elitist assumption is one of the barriers to discussing experiences in a broader, and I believe, more useful context. I don't deny that long term TMers will have their contribution to this if they can get out of the us verses them conditioned response. Maharishi did his group a real disservice in the long run my cultivating that elitist arrogance. It was a short term plus for him in group control but he may have doomed this small group to obscurity in the future. I also believe that our language is really getting in the way in describing subjective experience. There was always the claim that Sanskrit was better suited for these discussions because it was built on people making them. I don't know if I believe that but I do like the ideal of creating better, more precise terms to discuss internal experiences. It will not be easy. Too often in the movement a sort of word salad is thrown out and people knowingly nod their heads that this explains what they were experiencing. We can do better than that kind of poetic self-congratulatory social reinforcement. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
LOL - good one! He is such a phony - The only reason Barry continuously brings up the level setting, is for fear his lack of progress, in any domain of his life, will be made obvious. What a little fake. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences? Nicely said, now, shall we start with you trying this little experiment with the people you dislike because they find you uninteresting and boorish? Let's see how expansive and all-encompassing your mind can become for this lab test. Let's start with Jim and Judy - first exercise: list all the positive things you are able to appreciate about them and there has to be a minimum of 5 things per person. No sarcasm, only genuine expressed ability to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences. We'll wait - no doubt forever.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
My God, Ann, where do you find these graphics?! On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:46 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? Perhaps not... On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
These days, I tend to believe that subjective claims of spiritual experience should ALWAYS be completely discounted and treated as irrelevant poppycock. The only thing that can possibly matter between human beings is how those human beings ACT. If one of them *were* enlightened and acted like a dick, he'd still be a dick. But for those who choose to pursue an interest in the *claimed* experiences of others (there are, after all, no other kind), I suspect that ideally that too should be done on the basis of equality rather than belief in a supposed hierarchy of experiences. The *equal* position is that NO ONE ON EARTH knows what any of these experiences mean or what causes them, much less where they rank. It's just a bunch of people having opinions, and often acting like dicks about them. So again my position is that we're back to relying on what people DO, not what they say. This does not sit well with long-term TMers who have been systematically taught spiritual elitism since the day they started TM, and taught that they can claim elite status just by hanging out a sign. Many of them simply cannot *conceive* of a world in which they are not as elite as they've been taught to believe they are and claim they are. From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types To Share: But what if the criteria to be considered a dentist was just to put a sign in front of your house that said dentist? To Barry: I resonate with what you wrote and that is the direction of my thinking on altered states of consciousness of all kinds. We have to drop the traditionally informed pretense that we know what these experiences mean. On the other hand there is also an need to acknowledge that they do exist and might be interesting, especially if we could get more date from outside tight belief system interpretations. I am hoping that Sam's book in the fall will be along these lines and open up this discussion to a broader audience. Buck doesn't know anything about what Sam's experiences are. This elitist assumption is one of the barriers to discussing experiences in a broader, and I believe, more useful context. I don't deny that long term TMers will have their contribution to this if they can get out of the us verses them conditioned response. Maharishi did his group a real disservice in the long run my cultivating that elitist arrogance. It was a short term plus for him in group control but he may have doomed this small group to obscurity in the future. I also believe that our language is really getting in the way in describing subjective experience. There was always the claim that Sanskrit was better suited for these discussions because it was built on people making them. I don't know if I believe that but I do like the ideal of creating better, more precise terms to discuss internal experiences. It will not be easy. Too often in the movement a sort of word salad is thrown out and people knowingly nod their heads that this explains what they were experiencing. We can do better than that kind of poetic self-congratulatory social reinforcement. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Curtis, first I'd ask you to operationally define *being considered a dentist.* Does it mean clients go to that so called dentist and let him or her work on their teeth? If it does, then I'd say that those probably toothless clients need to find another system of determining who is qualified to work successfully on their teeth! By successfully, I mean the dentist helps the client keep teeth in their head. On Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:58 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: To Share: But what if the criteria to be considered a dentist was just to put a sign in front of your house that said dentist? To Barry: I resonate with what you wrote and that is the direction of my thinking on altered states of consciousness of all kinds. We have to drop the traditionally informed pretense that we know what these experiences mean. On the other hand there is also an need to acknowledge that they do exist and might be interesting, especially if we could get more date from outside tight belief system interpretations. I am hoping that Sam's book in the fall will be along these lines and open up this discussion to a broader audience. Buck doesn't know anything about what Sam's experiences are. This elitist assumption is one of the barriers to discussing experiences in a broader, and I believe, more useful context. I don't deny that long term TMers will have their contribution to this if they can get out of the us verses them conditioned response. Maharishi did his group a real disservice in the long run my cultivating that elitist arrogance. It was a short term plus for him in group control but he may have doomed this small group to obscurity in the future. I also believe that our language is really getting in the way in describing subjective experience. There was always the claim that Sanskrit was better suited for these discussions because it was built on people making them. I don't know if I believe that but I do like the ideal of creating better, more precise terms to discuss internal experiences. It will not be easy. Too often in the movement a sort of word salad is thrown out and people knowingly nod their heads that this explains what they were experiencing. We can do better than that kind of poetic self-congratulatory social reinforcement. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : My God, Ann, where do you find these graphics?! Heh, maybe a better question is who creates these things for me to find? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:46 AM, awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? Perhaps not... On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Share, try not to be such a dimwit. For dentists, there is an actual certification process, and licensing boards that one can contact to see whether they are licensed and have a good reputation. There is no such thing in the world of self-proclaimed spiritual teachers or those *claiming* to be enlightened. And yet, people like you *believe* them when they make those claims, and go to them -- usually paying fairly large sums of money for the privilege -- and rely on them to keep your spiritual teeth straight. Doesn't that strike you as kinda DUMB? From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types Curtis, first I'd ask you to operationally define *being considered a dentist.* Does it mean clients go to that so called dentist and let him or her work on their teeth? If it does, then I'd say that those probably toothless clients need to find another system of determining who is qualified to work successfully on their teeth! By successfully, I mean the dentist helps the client keep teeth in their head. On Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:58 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: To Share: But what if the criteria to be considered a dentist was just to put a sign in front of your house that said dentist? To Barry: I resonate with what you wrote and that is the direction of my thinking on altered states of consciousness of all kinds. We have to drop the traditionally informed pretense that we know what these experiences mean. On the other hand there is also an need to acknowledge that they do exist and might be interesting, especially if we could get more date from outside tight belief system interpretations. I am hoping that Sam's book in the fall will be along these lines and open up this discussion to a broader audience. Buck doesn't know anything about what Sam's experiences are. This elitist assumption is one of the barriers to discussing experiences in a broader, and I believe, more useful context. I don't deny that long term TMers will have their contribution to this if they can get out of the us verses them conditioned response. Maharishi did his group a real disservice in the long run my cultivating that elitist arrogance. It was a short term plus for him in group control but he may have doomed this small group to obscurity in the future. I also believe that our language is really getting in the way in describing subjective experience. There was always the claim that Sanskrit was better suited for these discussions because it was built on people making them. I don't know if I believe that but I do like the ideal of creating better, more precise terms to discuss internal experiences. It will not be easy. Too often in the movement a sort of word salad is thrown out and people knowingly nod their heads that this explains what they were experiencing. We can do better than that kind of poetic self-congratulatory social reinforcement. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Curtis, first I'd ask you to operationally define *being considered a dentist.* Does it mean clients go to that so called dentist and let him or her work on their teeth? C: It means being certified by a board who looks after the public's welfare in principle. Spiritual teachers have this within certain systems but lack it in the new age free for all that exists today. In Maharishi's system there is an obvious and I think odd lack of any certification for higher states of consciousness. The guys I saw proclaimed their enlightenment got bounced pretty fast. I find that odd for an organization that claimed to be the fastest system for getting you there. S: If it does, then I'd say that those probably toothless clients need to find another system of determining who is qualified to work successfully on their teeth! By successfully, I mean the dentist helps the client keep teeth in their head. C: Clear for teeth, not so clear for internal states right? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:58 AM, curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: To Share: But what if the criteria to be considered a dentist was just to put a sign in front of your house that said dentist? To Barry: I resonate with what you wrote and that is the direction of my thinking on altered states of consciousness of all kinds. We have to drop the traditionally informed pretense that we know what these experiences mean. On the other hand there is also an need to acknowledge that they do exist and might be interesting, especially if we could get more date from outside tight belief system interpretations. I am hoping that Sam's book in the fall will be along these lines and open up this discussion to a broader audience. Buck doesn't know anything about what Sam's experiences are. This elitist assumption is one of the barriers to discussing experiences in a broader, and I believe, more useful context. I don't deny that long term TMers will have their contribution to this if they can get out of the us verses them conditioned response. Maharishi did his group a real disservice in the long run my cultivating that elitist arrogance. It was a short term plus for him in group control but he may have doomed this small group to obscurity in the future. I also believe that our language is really getting in the way in describing subjective experience. There was always the claim that Sanskrit was better suited for these discussions because it was built on people making them. I don't know if I believe that but I do like the ideal of creating better, more precise terms to discuss internal experiences. It will not be easy. Too often in the movement a sort of word salad is thrown out and people knowingly nod their heads that this explains what they were experiencing. We can do better than that kind of poetic self-congratulatory social reinforcement. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Curtis and turq, yes I am aware that there are boards for certifying dentists. I ignored that path of discussion because there isn't such a system for certifying spiritual teachers. My main point is that individuals need to exercise due diligence. In the absence of a certifying board, one can go by one's own experience. However, since that might lead to lost teeth and a lot of pain, one can also, in the absence of a certifying board, ask one's friend's. Common sense helps in these matters (-: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 10:50 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Curtis, first I'd ask you to operationally define *being considered a dentist.* Does it mean clients go to that so called dentist and let him or her work on their teeth? C: It means being certified by a board who looks after the public's welfare in principle. Spiritual teachers have this within certain systems but lack it in the new age free for all that exists today. In Maharishi's system there is an obvious and I think odd lack of any certification for higher states of consciousness. The guys I saw proclaimed their enlightenment got bounced pretty fast. I find that odd for an organization that claimed to be the fastest system for getting you there. S: If it does, then I'd say that those probably toothless clients need to find another system of determining who is qualified to work successfully on their teeth! By successfully, I mean the dentist helps the client keep teeth in their head. C: Clear for teeth, not so clear for internal states right? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:58 AM, curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: To Share: But what if the criteria to be considered a dentist was just to put a sign in front of your house that said dentist? To Barry: I resonate with what you wrote and that is the direction of my thinking on altered states of consciousness of all kinds. We have to drop the traditionally informed pretense that we know what these experiences mean. On the other hand there is also an need to acknowledge that they do exist and might be interesting, especially if we could get more date from outside tight belief system interpretations. I am hoping that Sam's book in the fall will be along these lines and open up this discussion to a broader audience. Buck doesn't know anything about what Sam's experiences are. This elitist assumption is one of the barriers to discussing experiences in a broader, and I believe, more useful context. I don't deny that long term TMers will have their contribution to this if they can get out of the us verses them conditioned response. Maharishi did his group a real disservice in the long run my cultivating that elitist arrogance. It was a short term plus for him in group control but he may have doomed this small group to obscurity in the future. I also believe that our language is really getting in the way in describing subjective experience. There was always the claim that Sanskrit was better suited for these discussions because it was built on people making them. I don't know if I believe that but I do like the ideal of creating better, more precise terms to discuss internal experiences. It will not be easy. Too often in the movement a sort of word salad is thrown out and people knowingly nod their heads that this explains what they were experiencing. We can do better than that kind of poetic self-congratulatory social reinforcement. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Ann, I just assumed these graphics are produced by that sweaty stud muffin on the motorcycle (-: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 10:42 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : My God, Ann, where do you find these graphics?! Heh, maybe a better question is who creates these things for me to find? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:46 AM, awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? Perhaps not... On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Curtis, do you remember what guys you saw that proclaimed their enlightenment in those days? From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Curtis, first I'd ask you to operationally define *being considered a dentist.* Does it mean clients go to that so called dentist and let him or her work on their teeth? C: It means being certified by a board who looks after the public's welfare in principle. Spiritual teachers have this within certain systems but lack it in the new age free for all that exists today. In Maharishi's system there is an obvious and I think odd lack of any certification for higher states of consciousness. The guys I saw proclaimed their enlightenment got bounced pretty fast. I find that odd for an organization that claimed to be the fastest system for getting you there. S: If it does, then I'd say that those probably toothless clients need to find another system of determining who is qualified to work successfully on their teeth! By successfully, I mean the dentist helps the client keep teeth in their head. C: Clear for teeth, not so clear for internal states right? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:58 AM, curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: To Share: But what if the criteria to be considered a dentist was just to put a sign in front of your house that said dentist? To Barry: I resonate with what you wrote and that is the direction of my thinking on altered states of consciousness of all kinds. We have to drop the traditionally informed pretense that we know what these experiences mean. On the other hand there is also an need to acknowledge that they do exist and might be interesting, especially if we could get more date from outside tight belief system interpretations. I am hoping that Sam's book in the fall will be along these lines and open up this discussion to a broader audience. Buck doesn't know anything about what Sam's experiences are. This elitist assumption is one of the barriers to discussing experiences in a broader, and I believe, more useful context. I don't deny that long term TMers will have their contribution to this if they can get out of the us verses them conditioned response. Maharishi did his group a real disservice in the long run my cultivating that elitist arrogance. It was a short term plus for him in group control but he may have doomed this small group to obscurity in the future. I also believe that our language is really getting in the way in describing subjective experience. There was always the claim that Sanskrit was better suited for these discussions because it was built on people making them. I don't know if I believe that but I do like the ideal of creating better, more precise terms to discuss internal experiences. It will not be easy. Too often in the movement a sort of word salad is thrown out and people knowingly nod their heads that this explains what they were experiencing. We can do better than that kind of poetic self-congratulatory social reinforcement. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Someone like Francis Bennett more recently coming out now awakened on batgap.com is teaching now in a blush as a Quietist. Quietism is an earlier word to transcendentalism. Francis now it seems is one in old quietism like TM'ers are more narrowly modern day transcendentalist quietism. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of course for his teaching of quietism, is better known in his promulgation using transcendental meditation as modality. It all becomes much more fun to look at mystics, spiritual teachers and history this way. More in line with western scholarly discernment of spirituality [for individuals or groups] and spiritual [illumined/awakened] teachers, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in western typology become somewhat analogous to modern culture as, -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; . -Buck In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from the spirituality typology of these three established categories, the channel-ers seem to fall over in to their own different category of 'spiritism'. That is fair and understandable. Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend go work on it. First, Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite Sam Harris to come to Fairfield to join us in our home of all Knowledge for the Batgap interview. That could be good for stirring the deeper discussion of spiritual experience and figure out if his is an abiding one. -Buck What is his spiritual experience around this that would allow him
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
Buck, just off the top of my head, I'd call Francis Bennett a teacher. I'd call Kirsten Kirk a healer. I'd put channelers in a different category. Doesn't seem like enough categories. Maharishi and Amma I'd call masters. On Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:17 PM, dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Someone like Francis Bennett more recently coming out now awakened on batgap.com is teaching now in a blush as a Quietist. Quietism is an earlier word to transcendentalism. Francis now it seems is one in old quietism like TM'ers are more narrowly modern day transcendentalist quietism. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of course for his teaching of quietism, is better known in his promulgation using transcendental meditation as modality. It all becomes much more fun to look at mystics, spiritual teachers and history this way. More in line with western scholarly discernment of spirituality [for individuals or groups] and spiritual [illumined/awakened] teachers, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in western typology become somewhat analogous to modern culture as, -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; . -Buck In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from the spirituality typology of these three established categories, the channel-ers seem to fall over in to their own different category of 'spiritism'. That is fair and understandable. Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publisha categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend go work on it. First, Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even without experience. Rick, invite
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
One don't see so many Ritam Bhara Pragya or 'inspired' people as modality as often; however, Connie Huebner is a fabulous example of a classic school of inspiration teachers operating in Ritam Bhara Pragya, very much like the mystics of the old Amana Colony tradition going way back into a European lineage of mysticism. Someone like Francis Bennett more recently coming out now awakened on batgap.com is teaching now in a blush as a Quietist. Quietism is an earlier word to transcendentalism. Francis now it seems is one in old quietism like TM'ers are more narrowly modern day transcendentalist quietism. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of course for his teaching of quietism, is better known in his promulgation using transcendental meditation as modality. It all becomes much more fun to look at mystics, spiritual teachers and history this way. More in line with western scholarly discernment of spirituality [for individuals or groups] and spiritual [illumined/awakened] teachers, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in western typology become somewhat analogous to modern culture as, -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; . -Buck In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from the spirituality typology of these three established categories, the channel-ers seem to fall over in to their own different category of 'spiritism'. That is fair and understandable. Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend go work on it. First, Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of spiritual folks some can become 'gurus' by virtue of just scholarship alone without even much abiding experience. Others by virtue of ability to teach and talk spiritual technique, or others with having an abiding spiritual transformational effect for others by spiritual field affect. Sat-gurus it would seems would be good at combinations in all three: 1)scholarly, 2)knowledgable and good with techniques, and 3) with field effect of spiritual healing and help in Being. It would be nice to learn where Sam Harris in experience is in effect with this scale as he is becoming a famous talking head in culture. Some people evidently can become cultural gurus just by virtue of their intellectual understandings even
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
One can't argue with deluded people. When Curtis claims knowledge is not structured in consciousness he wants us to believe that he is the same when tired, in deep sleep, after a couple of drinks, when playing music and in meditation. Right. If anyone doubted Curtis was delusional/and or a liar all they have to is read that post. A phony and more than a little fake as his friend the Turq. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : LOL - good one! He is such a phony - The only reason Barry continuously brings up the level setting, is for fear his lack of progress, in any domain of his life, will be made obvious. What a little fake. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences? Nicely said, now, shall we start with you trying this little experiment with the people you dislike because they find you uninteresting and boorish? Let's see how expansive and all-encompassing your mind can become for this lab test. Let's start with Jim and Judy - first exercise: list all the positive things you are able to appreciate about them and there has to be a minimum of 5 things per person. No sarcasm, only genuine expressed ability to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences. We'll wait - no doubt forever.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Curtis, do you remember what guys you saw that proclaimed their enlightenment in those days? C: The most famous were Robin and Andy Reimer. But there were others who were on the no admittance list at the College of Natural Law in DC. I remember their faces but not all their names although I wouldn't post them if I did. One was even a Minister which in the pre raja days was the hottest ticket. It was a weird position for me to be in to have to keep him out as a lowly sidha. Once I even had to physically chase him out in a weird human billiards angle game! The finessing of experience groups was very interesting in retrospect. The TM model doesn't have a path for people to be recognized as enlightened. This was exacerbated by Maharishi's habit of exiling people who you would assume would have achieved it like Jerry Jarvis. I became pretty good friends with a few guys who were personally sent away to movement Siberia facilities after being skin boys or other top positions close to Maharishi. The Florida Capital became a place they would keep people in after the Vedic Atoms left. It gave you a very clear idea to keep your head down Fritzy Boy! Your position in the movement was at the whim of the master. And the years of being a good little outcast never really took away the taint of being sent away. I even had Neil Patterson talk shit Jerry Jarvis when I invited him to lecture at the DC center. I had worked with Jerry pretty closely at MIU and really liked him. But Neil threatened me with losing my center chairman position for inviting someone with what he called old thinking to speak to the group. The story of Jerry would make a fantastic Greek tragedy. A bit off topic of your question but it triggered that memory. Anyway there were more than a few who announced their whatever, and it never ended well. From: curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Curtis, first I'd ask you to operationally define *being considered a dentist.* Does it mean clients go to that so called dentist and let him or her work on their teeth? C: It means being certified by a board who looks after the public's welfare in principle. Spiritual teachers have this within certain systems but lack it in the new age free for all that exists today. In Maharishi's system there is an obvious and I think odd lack of any certification for higher states of consciousness. The guys I saw proclaimed their enlightenment got bounced pretty fast. I find that odd for an organization that claimed to be the fastest system for getting you there. S: If it does, then I'd say that those probably toothless clients need to find another system of determining who is qualified to work successfully on their teeth! By successfully, I mean the dentist helps the client keep teeth in their head. C: Clear for teeth, not so clear for internal states right? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:58 AM, curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: To Share: But what if the criteria to be considered a dentist was just to put a sign in front of your house that said dentist? To Barry: I resonate with what you wrote and that is the direction of my thinking on altered states of consciousness of all kinds. We have to drop the traditionally informed pretense that we know what these experiences mean. On the other hand there is also an need to acknowledge that they do exist and might be interesting, especially if we could get more date from outside tight belief system interpretations. I am hoping that Sam's book in the fall will be along these lines and open up this discussion to a broader audience. Buck doesn't know anything about what Sam's experiences are. This elitist assumption is one of the barriers to discussing experiences in a broader, and I believe, more useful context. I don't deny that long term TMers will have their contribution to this if they can get out of the us verses them conditioned response. Maharishi did his group a real disservice in the long run my cultivating that elitist arrogance. It was a short term plus for him in group control but he may have doomed this small group to obscurity in the future. I also believe that our language is really getting in the way in describing subjective experience. There was always the claim that Sanskrit was better suited for these discussions because it was built on people making them. I don't know if I believe that but I do like the ideal of creating better, more precise terms to discuss internal experiences. It will not be easy. Too often in the movement a sort of word salad is thrown out and people knowingly
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : One can't argue with deluded people. When Curtis claims knowledge is not structured in consciousness he wants us to believe that he is the same when tired, in deep sleep, after a couple of drinks, when playing music and in meditation. C: There are differences in how I feel, there is no difference in my knowledge. The sleep example is absurd nor did I claim that. Maharishi's claim is that the states of mind produced from meditation change someone's knowledge. You are a perfect example of how this is not true. For all your practice you are still contributing material here at a very low level even considering your English as a second language handicap. So if knowledge really is structured in consciousness... If you are a professional in any field you are not affected by being tired. That is an amateur's problem. You feel different, but your knowledge remains reliable and consistent, as does your ability to deliver the goods. N: Right. If anyone doubted Curtis was delusional/and or a liar all they have to is read that post. A phony and more than a little fake as his friend the Tur'q C: The liar charge is especially odious. It is a trollish charge unaccompanied with a charge I can defend myself from specifically. You are a good little shoot the messenger soldier aren't you Nabby. A cluster of fantastic claims and beliefs held together by animosity toward non believers. Very provincial, the opposite of what expanded awareness should include. Your awareness is even too limited to comprehend the perspective from a person you consider ignorant like myself. How expanded is that? . ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : LOL - good one! He is such a phony - The only reason Barry continuously brings up the level setting, is for fear his lack of progress, in any domain of his life, will be made obvious. What a little fake. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences? Nicely said, now, shall we start with you trying this little experiment with the people you dislike because they find you uninteresting and boorish? Let's see how expansive and all-encompassing your mind can become for this lab test. Let's start with Jim and Judy - first exercise: list all the positive things you are able to appreciate about them and there has to be a minimum of 5 things per person. No sarcasm, only genuine expressed ability to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences. We'll wait - no doubt forever.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
No, you willfully turns what Maharishi said upside down which makes you, as several here not just me has pointed out, a bogus and a liar. He claimed and rightly so, that knowledge is different in different states of consciousness. You still make the very untrustworthy claim that your knowledge is the same in any state. Which is downright silly, if not delusional. Which any professional in any field also will tell you. The reason you probably don't know this is because you are an amateur philosopher and an amateur musician as evidenced by the video's you posted on youtube. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : One can't argue with deluded people. When Curtis claims knowledge is not structured in consciousness he wants us to believe that he is the same when tired, in deep sleep, after a couple of drinks, when playing music and in meditation. C: There are differences in how I feel, there is no difference in my knowledge. The sleep example is absurd nor did I claim that. Maharishi's claim is that the states of mind produced from meditation change someone's knowledge. You are a perfect example of how this is not true. For all your practice you are still contributing material here at a very low level even considering your English as a second language handicap. So if knowledge really is structured in consciousness... If you are a professional in any field you are not affected by being tired. That is an amateur's problem. You feel different, but your knowledge remains reliable and consistent, as does your ability to deliver the goods. N: Right. If anyone doubted Curtis was delusional/and or a liar all they have to is read that post. A phony and more than a little fake as his friend the Tur'q C: The liar charge is especially odious. It is a trollish charge unaccompanied with a charge I can defend myself from specifically. You are a good little shoot the messenger soldier aren't you Nabby. A cluster of fantastic claims and beliefs held together by animosity toward non believers. Very provincial, the opposite of what expanded awareness should include. Your awareness is even too limited to comprehend the perspective from a person you consider ignorant like myself. How expanded is that? . ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : LOL - good one! He is such a phony - The only reason Barry continuously brings up the level setting, is for fear his lack of progress, in any domain of his life, will be made obvious. What a little fake. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences? Nicely said, now, shall we start with you trying this little experiment with the people you dislike because they find you uninteresting and boorish? Let's
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : No, you willfully turns what Maharishi said upside down which makes you, as several here not just me has pointed out, a bogus and a liar. He claimed and rightly so, that knowledge is different in different states of consciousness. You still make the very untrustworthy claim that your knowledge is the same in any state. Which is downright silly, if not delusional. Which any professional in any field also will tell you. The reason you probably don't know this is because you are an amateur philosopher and an amateur musician as evidenced by the video's you posted on youtube. C: And once again you prove my point as well as miss it. The end of the claim about knowledge that is the analogy isn't even the most important challenge I am making. I am challenging what it is an analogy for. To prove it right you should be able to produce some knowledge that really blows us all away. Instead what we get are platitudes about consciousness being the home of all knowledge and human consciousness being the basis for all creation which is just reshash HIndu philosophy. But hey Nabbie, prove me wrong with your wonderful state of consciousness. Do more than sophomoric putdowns. Say something that could only be known by someone in a special state of consciousness instead of just repeating beliefs as you have done so far. In the sense Maharishi claimed this, and for what the analogy is really for, there is no evidence from any of the believers that they have done more with their consciousness than full it full of beliefs carefully memorized from their authority figure like medieval monks copying scriptures as slavish scribes. Come on Nabby, amaze me. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : One can't argue with deluded people. When Curtis claims knowledge is not structured in consciousness he wants us to believe that he is the same when tired, in deep sleep, after a couple of drinks, when playing music and in meditation. C: There are differences in how I feel, there is no difference in my knowledge. The sleep example is absurd nor did I claim that. Maharishi's claim is that the states of mind produced from meditation change someone's knowledge. You are a perfect example of how this is not true. For all your practice you are still contributing material here at a very low level even considering your English as a second language handicap. So if knowledge really is structured in consciousness... If you are a professional in any field you are not affected by being tired. That is an amateur's problem. You feel different, but your knowledge remains reliable and consistent, as does your ability to deliver the goods. N: Right. If anyone doubted Curtis was delusional/and or a liar all they have to is read that post. A phony and more than a little fake as his friend the Tur'q C: The liar charge is especially odious. It is a trollish charge unaccompanied with a charge I can defend myself from specifically. You are a good little shoot the messenger soldier aren't you Nabby. A cluster of fantastic claims and beliefs held together by animosity toward non believers. Very provincial, the opposite of what expanded awareness should include. Your awareness is even too limited to comprehend the perspective from a person you consider ignorant like myself. How expanded is that? . ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : LOL - good one! He is such a phony - The only reason Barry continuously brings up the level setting, is for fear his lack of progress, in any domain of his life, will be made obvious. What a little fake. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Ann, I just assumed these graphics are produced by that sweaty stud muffin on the motorcycle (-: No, no, important distinction - he was a bicycle rider. You don't sweat riding a motorcycle and motorcyclists don't wear those huggy biking shorts that show the manly package so clearly. On Sunday, May 18, 2014 10:42 AM, awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : My God, Ann, where do you find these graphics?! Heh, maybe a better question is who creates these things for me to find? On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:46 AM, awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : turq, good point and I agree that we're all the same on some level. But if I have a toothache for example, I'd rather consult with a good dentist rather than a good podiatrist. My bad? Perhaps not... On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:53 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: On Sunday, May 18, 2014 6:33 AM, dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Just as a question, wouldn't it be more interesting to consider the possibility that everyone Rick has ever interviewed is Just Another Human Being, whose experiences are in no way any better or higher than any others? In other words, it seems to me that Buck is still arguing for the elitism approach, trying to categorize these folks into higher/lower and better/worse pigeonholes so that people like him can look up to some of them and look down on others. Wouldn't it be more...uh, dare I say it...enlightened to consider them all at exactly the same level -- just human beings having an opinion based on their individual interpretations of their respective subjective experiences?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Graphing the Illumined Batgap interviewees by types
One can find illumined people in satsanga teaching quietism and piety blended as meditational in guided chakra or subtle energy knowledge. Someone like Ammachi is teaching and bringing pietism in the help she gives through the field effect of darshan and her spiritual practices as modalities to people's subtle systems. Her spiritual practices can fuse quietism [meditational] and subtle system spiritual work [piety]. As an illumined person Ammachi evidently is very much like the mystic person in modality of Mother Ann, founder of the Shakers. Janet Sussman is a great example of that too, adept at helping the subtle systems of folks while also being founded as a quietist. It seems that one does not see so many Ritam Bhara Pragya or 'inspired' people as modality as often; however, Connie Huebner, interviewed on Batgap, is a fabulous example of a classic school of inspiration teachers operating in Ritam Bhara Pragya, very much like the mystics of the old Amana Colony tradition going way back into a European lineage of mysticism. Someone like Francis Bennett more recently coming out now awakened on batgap.com is teaching now in a blush as a Quietist. Quietism is an earlier word to transcendentalism. Francis now it seems is one in old quietism like TM'ers are more narrowly modern day transcendentalist quietism. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of course for his teaching of quietism, is better known in his promulgation using transcendental meditation as modality. It all becomes much more fun to look at mystics, spiritual teachers and history this way. More in line with western scholarly discernment of spirituality [for individuals or groups] and spiritual [illumined/awakened] teachers, 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration' in western typology become somewhat analogous to modern culture as, -Meditation teachers, -Subtle system teachers, -Ritam Bhara Pragya people; . -Buck In the west the categorization of spirituality technically falls in to 'Quietism', 'Piety' and 'Inspiration'. The Batgap interviews in a more scholarly way often fall nicely in to this typology when looked at this way. -Buck Those would be safer demarcations to categorize by that could have some scholarly basis. Though as started on the current Batgap categorizations, different from the spirituality typology of these three established categories, the channel-ers seem to fall over in to their own different category of 'spiritism'. That is fair and understandable. Rick should get someone much more scholarly [with credentials] to discern and categorize the interviewees spiritually if Rick is going to publish a categorical list like that and not just let some earnest friend go work on it. First, Rick really ought to pull the list from the Batgap page right now, back up and think about it some more before publishing some stoopid list that way it is growing now or he is looking at all kinds of legal troubles for Batgap and himself. Kindly, -Buck in the Dome Yes, I noticed the attempt at categorization on Batgap. It is lame. -Buck sharelong60 writes: Buck, a friend is working on Rick's categories at his request and I'll forward your comments to him. In range and distribution of illumined Batgap interviewees by types, just throwing these Batgap illumined people interviewed thus far on a scatter graph by their experience and spiritual affect on others, it seems observable that some of the awakened are more proactive in affect as teachers, some are long time practiced at helping others spiritually and/or transformational for others just by being of a field effect of presence. Some of them are teachers in nature of character, while some may glow in the closet and watch sort of like Harri by experience was for so long. Others transformational in effect like a Janet Sussman also from childhood or Connie Huebner from younger or Ammachi from way back, yet different from glowing in the closet each in their lives have been engaged teaching in formats with spiritual experience, techniques and scholarship to be of help to others for much of their lives, Batgap is a fabulous oral archive around this range of spiritual possibility within humanity based on a scale of abiding experience and spiritual transformational affect. It is useful for parsing to see them in a range and distribution of, Teachers -Gurus -Sat Gurus -Jagad Gurus by scale of transformational affect. Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Note to Rick, Conderning his interview with Sam Harris As you get to Sam Harris, he evidently may be a fantastic intellectual but don't just give him free air time without finding out more about his spiritual experience inside his constructs of thinking. -Buck in the Dome Om, Rick as you are proly experiencing in these Batgap interviews, someone becoming a 'guru' in culture can be different than someone abiding in spiritual experience. In a range and distribution of
