Re: What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?
> Another alternative story: Let's say the writer of the page likes to > say: "Don't use Arabic Yehs like 'ي', use Persian Yehs like 'ی'."? BEHzad, please find a way to make the Arabic remain Arabic if the webmaster has intentionally typed Arabic. Maybe it's time to start using those AR and FA lang tags which are so far mainly ornamental?? It's very common that someone will want both Arabic and Persian text on one page. > > (RoozBEH, are you almost done cleaning out your Inbox??) > I'm doing it now. Next shot in 90 days. I'll see if I can schedule you for a rendezvous with Halley's Comet. > Very good recommendations. Oh, and some numbers too (in the event that one day we can make a numbered list in Persian!) -Connie ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?
On Sun, 2003-11-16 at 02:03, C Bobroff wrote:
> I believe in principle, the search engines are to consider Persian and
> Arabic Yeh to be the same.
They should consider it to be "weakly equivalent". That's the term. Same
as they do for, say, capital "A" and small "a", or a-umlaut ("ä") and
normal "a".
> Yet they do not. Why? Are the tables they are consulting faulty?
> Are they consulting the wrong tables? Does no one even know this is a
> problem? Who handles this so they can fix the problem?
Google does, for example. MSN also does, if they have a Persian search.
As for contacting them, feel free to do so. I had done the same once
with all the authority I could use from the Unicode Consortium, to no
avail (in other words, I got no reply or action).
> And what if we WANT the search engine
> to distinguish between the Persian and Arabic?
You provide an "option" to the engine, mentioning that it shouldn't use
its equivalent tables. But can you do that with "A" and "a" in Google?
> something like the first line in the Divan of Hafez:
> alaa yaa ayyuhaa saaqi ader ka'san wa naawelhaa
> Is that lang="fa" or lang="ar"?
I agree that it's a hard question. Really depends on how you are going
to write the "saaqi" part. Since it's pronounced /i:/, it should be
written as dotted Yeh in the Arabic language. If you're writing it with
a dotless Yeh, it should be Persian transliteration of Arabic text. Now,
how do you mark an English tranliteration of Arabic text? With "en" or
"ar"? Of course you'll use "en". So in that case, you should use "fa".
> I wonder why you say "#1740;" instead of "U+06CC"?? :) :)
He's a real person, not a computer programmer! Real people prefer
decimal to hexadecimal, I guess. But AmirBehzad, it's an inconvenience
to refer to Unicode characters by their decimal code. If you want to use
HTML escapes, please use the in "ی" format, instead of "ی".
Both are unreadable to a casual reader, but the first is readable by an
specialist without using a scientific calculator.
> I am slowly starting to think your idea is indeed the solution to the Yeh
> and Kaf problem. I hope the more technically astute people will
> also wake up and give you some feedback.
The solution? The solution is of course fixing every software
immediately. But I agree that AmirBehzad's is acutally a nice idea. To
detect what the browser support properly (possibly using some
JavaScript, browser sniffing, and other tricks) and then serve the
browser what it can display.
It works fine for display purposes, but there are scenarios that it not
sufficent. Let's say a user is using IE5 on Win98, and he has the
Persian Yeh bug. AmirBehzad's script serves her Arabic Yeh in medial and
initial forms. She sees everything fine. But then, she wants to search
the (already-retreived) web page using the "Find" menu on her browser
(which has not implemented any such Yeh equivalence). The result: she
can't find the Arabic Yeh (or the Persian one).
Another alternative story: Let's say the writer of the page likes to
say: "Don't use Arabic Yehs like 'ي', use Persian Yehs like 'ی'."?
You'll agree that he will be scared when the software does him weird
things.
The best solution, is updating the software and the fonts. And nagging
to the developers of the software if that doesn't fix the problem. And
writing your own software if that did't work either. Or learning to
write software if you don't know how. Or forgetting it all if it's not
worth the effort.
> (RoozBEH, are you almost done cleaning out your Inbox??)
I'm doing it now. Next shot in 90 days.
> Perhaps the script could also check if the win9x user has IE6 in
> addition and if so, let them see Persian.
I agree.
> I would like to request that you make a simple webpage and post it
> somewhere for newbies to copy and paste.
> It would be nice if you put a
> little alternating Persian and English content so people see how to switch
> between the two. An exterior .CSS file that is 100% compliant with
> directions for copying for one's own use would be so nice. For test
> purposes, the Persian content should include some tricky things like
> parentheses, diacritics (tashdid, sokun, zir, zabar, pish, etc),
> zero-width-joiner, zero-width-non-joiner, heh+hamza, and something
> requiring mouseovers (or some such feature requiring the browser to
> calculate where the word is on the page.) After making everything as
> standard and compliant as possible, also put in your script, and most
> important, directions for how to copy and explanation for why it is there,
> I think this would be the best.
Very good recommendations.
roozbeh
___
FarsiWeb mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?
BEHzad, > You're right, BBC solves the "Yeh" and "Keh" for all users, Actually, the only reason I suggested BBC in the first place was because I thought they were using Persian characters only! Only after looking at your gifs did I go back and have a second, more carefull look and found to my surprise they had actually the Arabic Yeh in medial position. (Although BBC is not consistent and there is more than one person doing their typing.) But in any case, we'd better find a better test site or better yet, make our own! > But creates a new problem about "Yeh" and "Keh" for Search Engines. The search engine problem is the most vital problem and I have no idea why someone isn't taking action. I believe in principle, the search engines are to consider Persian and Arabic Yeh to be the same. Yet they do not. Why? Are the tables they are consulting faulty? Are they consulting the wrong tables? Does no one even know this is a problem? Who handles this so they can fix the problem? It is not just Yeh but also Kaf and the Heh+Hamza variants to name a few. And what if we WANT the search engine to distinguish between the Persian and Arabic? I seem to have only questions and no answers! I'm not even sure how a webmaster should encode something like the first line in the Divan of Hafez: alaa yaa ayyuhaa saaqi ader ka'san wa naawelhaa Is that lang="fa" or lang="ar"? I'm not sure and I don't know what the search engines should think about this! > Please note that there are still some users that still use Internet Explorer > 5, > 5.5, such as some Coffee Nets in Tehran. I know more users who they still > run Windows 98, and you know that the "Yeh" and "Keh" is ALSO exists on > Windows 2000/ME systems. Someone has just today posted on another thread a very logical explanation of why someone would choose to stay with the "stone age" technology even if the improved version is free. However, I wonder how much can be attributed to laziness or fear of the unknown? I wish we had some statistics for Persian users! Staying with Netscape 4.x is a luxury only English users can afford, not Persian! > Moshkel "Yeh" Farsi daghigan chi hast? > Hamoon-tor ke midooni, dar UTF-8, baraaye namaayesh harfe "Yeh" Farsi az > code "#1740;" estefaadeh misheh. I wonder why you say "#1740;" instead of "U+06CC"?? :) :) > = Please See the attached file "9xyeh.gif" Now ok but I'm still waiting to hear if IE6 solves the problem on Win9x (although I'm pretty sure it won't help you if your WIn2000 is defective.) > Haalaa BBC chetor moshkel ro hal kardeh? > Be khiaal khodeshoon kheili Zirakaaneh! Persian Word-processing: "bringing you yesterday's solutions today!" > = Please See the attached file "yehatbbc.gif" Now Thanks! You put a lot of time into this. I'm sure many will appreciate hearing the full story. > Yani agar Win9x user bood, baa yek barnaame in ro tash-khis midim, badesh > "Yeh" Arabic behesh paass mikonam. I am slowly starting to think your idea is indeed the solution to the Yeh and Kaf problem. I hope the more technically astute people will also wake up and give you some feedback. (RoozBEH, are you almost done cleaning out your Inbox??) Perhaps the script could also check if the win9x user has IE6 in addition and if so, let them see Persian. I would like to request that you make a simple webpage and post it somewhere for newbies to copy and paste. It would be nice if you put a little alternating Persian and English content so people see how to switch between the two. An exterior .CSS file that is 100% compliant with directions for copying for one's own use would be so nice. For test purposes, the Persian content should include some tricky things like parentheses, diacritics (tashdid, sokun, zir, zabar, pish, etc), zero-width-joiner, zero-width-non-joiner, heh+hamza, and something requiring mouseovers (or some such feature requiring the browser to calculate where the word is on the page.) After making everything as standard and compliant as possible, also put in your script, and most important, directions for how to copy and explanation for why it is there, I think this would be the best. There are many webdevelopers at international institutions and libraries being told to put up content in Persian even though they don't even speak Persian. There is no authority to consult as to what constitutes the best Persian website. Each person seems to find his or her own workaround to make do with. We really need a model, state-of-the-art Persian website so that the technology can be worthy of the content and the content worthy of the technology. What do you say? -Connie ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?
In Reply of:
Re: What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?
http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/farsiweb/2003-November/000836.html.
Dear Mr. Connie,
Thank you for your time and for your interest about this topic.
You're right, BBC solves the "Yeh" and "Keh" for all users,
But creates a new problem about "Yeh" and "Keh" for Search Engines.
Please note that there are still some users that still use Internet Explorer
5,
5.5, such as some Coffee Nets in Tehran. I know more users who they still
run Windows 98, and you know that the "Yeh" and "Keh" is ALSO exists on
Windows 2000/ME systems.
But to explain your question about BBC Persian, I'm going to write the
answer in
Farsi, I also attached two pictures to help you understand me.
---
Read "aa" like 'a' in the word "ball"
Read "a" like 'a' in the word "hat"
-
BBC Persian va chand site digar mesle "BlogSky.com", az yek ravesh
Zaa-He-Ran Zirankaaneh baraaye halleh mosh-kel "Yeh" va "Keh" Farsi
estefaadeh
mikonand.
Ghabl az edaameye bahs, ejaazeh bedid man mataa-lebi ro yaad-aavari konam:
Moshkel "Yeh" Farsi daghigan chi hast?
Hamoon-tor ke midooni, dar UTF-8, baraaye namaayesh harfe "Yeh" Farsi az
code "#1740;" estefaadeh misheh.
Va dar Arabic, baraaye namaayesheh harfe "Yeh" az code "#1610;" estefaadeh
misheh.
Farghe in-do, dar in hast ke "Yeh" dar Arabic, do taa nogh-teh ham ziresh
daareh.
Khob, Harfeh maa in hast ke baayad az "Yeh" Farsi estefaadeh konim va az
estefaadeh az "Yeh" Arabic, ke kheili az weblog haaye Farsi baa oon Aloodeh
shodan, khod-daari konim.
Amaa Yek Moshkel vojood daareh:
Dar Windows haaye 95/98/ME/NT/2000, chand taa Font be soorate Naa-Ghes
taraahi shodan; mesle Tahoma.
Midoonid ke "Yeh" dar Farsi, 2 taa shekl daareh:
1) Yeh Akhareh Kalameh
2) Yeh vasat kalame
Font Designer haa faraamoosh kardan, shekl character "Yeh Vasat Kalame" ro
baraaye code #1740; taraahi konan. Be hamin khaater, Win9x User haa dorost
jomalaateh Farsi ro nemibinan. Dar vaaghe in Win9x user haa, "Yeh Vasat
Kalame" ro be soorate "Yeh Akhareh Kalameh" mibinan!!!
= Please See the attached file "9xyeh.gif" Now
Haalaa BBC chetor moshkel ro hal kardeh?
Be khiaal khodeshoon kheili Zirakaaneh!
Omadan goftan maa baraaye "Yeh Akhareh Kalameh" az hamoon code "#1740;"
estefaadeh mikonim,
vali baraaye "Yeh Vasat Kalame" az "#1610;" (ke Arabic hast) estefaadeh
mikonim. Injoori digeh to hich systemi Mosh-keleh Yeh nadaarim.
Khob, Dar negaah aval shaayad tah-sin bar-an-giz be nazar bereseh.
= Please See the attached file "yehatbbc.gif" Now
Safehaat BBC persian chon haalaa Tarkibi az "Yeh" ro estefaadeh mikonan,
dorost dar Search Engine-haa Index nemishan.
Yani Chi? Yani agar masalan man be donbaal kalameye "Yeki" begaram, baayad
khodam be onvaan User in kalame ro be soorat Tar-Ki-Bi, yani hamoon-joor ke
dar BBC neveshteh shodeh, vaared konam!
Man migam maa baayad dar-har-haal az "Yeh Farsi #1740;" estefaadeh konim.
Chon standard hast. Injoor safehaat dorost ham dar Search Engine haa index
mishan, yani Content kaalelan Farsi mah-soob mihshe.
Moshkel "Yeh" dar Win9x ham, baa avaz kardan code Yeh Farsi baa Arabic hal
mikonim.
Yani agar Win9x user bood, baa yek barnaame in ro tash-khis midim, badesh
"Yeh" Arabic behesh paass mikonam.
if (win9x_user) {
output "Arabic Content"
}
else {
output "Farsi Content"
}
The esle block control the content for all other users, including WinXP,
MacOS, Linux users and Search Engines.
Omid-vaaram manzooram ro daghighan resoondeh baasham,
Agar baaz ham so-aali hast, hatman beporsid.
Bedrood,
Behzad
- Original Message -
From: "C Bobroff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "AmirBehzad Eslami" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote:
> > , but Win9x users
> > cannot view the "Yeh (U+06CC)" and "Keheh (U+06A9)" correctly, because
of an
> > old version of -default installed- Fonts like Tahoma.
>
> How about if some nice person posts some screenshots of BBC's Persian page
> as seen on both Win98 and Win95 with the default font so we can assess the
> situation?
>
> That should hopefully be with IE 6 which I was told updates the shaping
> engine and fonts.
>
> I may be wrong so please correct me. I too am only looking for the right
> solution. You're correct that it's not nice to ask people to download
> fonts but if it's only a one-time IE update, that is not asking too much.
>
> -Connie
>
>
<><>___
FarsiWeb mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?
Dear Mr Eslami,
In a month or two, Windows 95 would be 9 years old, and Windows
98 some 6 years old. Caring for people using 6 years old
not-updated software in a market that things happen as fast as
twice the speed each eighteen months, is like publishing vinyls
as well as tapes and Audio CDs.
If you feel like a pro web designer, please consider having your
web pages work under non-IE browsers (not saying they are not).
You may consider publishing your content for non-Unicode IE 3
Windows 3.1 based systems, as they happen to quite common just
one year before that Windows 95 thing that you happen to support.
Also there are people using Lynx and other text browsers, that
you may wish to transliterate for them, if these are the best you
deduce from web design rules.
Behdad 'just another flame war' Esfahbod
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote:
> Dear Mr. Connie,
> Thank you for your time to write me a kind reply.
>
> Sir, I never use Arabic "Yeh" and "Keh" on my website. I'm looking to the
> future and to web standards. I'm trying to help others.
>
> Do you know the story of "Yeh" and "Keh" problem?
> WinXP users are able to view all Farsi characters correctly, but Win9x users
> cannot view the "Yeh (U+06CC)" and "Keheh (U+06A9)" correctly, because of an
> old version of -default installed- Fonts like Tahoma.
>
> Currently there are two methods to solve this problem:
>
> 1) Using Arabic "Yeh" and "Keh" in our web site; so every user reads the
> content correctly. (The user will see Arabic version of "Yeh", which has two
> dots below of "Yeh")
>
> 2) Ask your visitors to download a newer version of fonts, especailly
> "Nesf" or "Tahoma"; then Win9x users will also able to view the "Yeh" and
> "Keh" correctly.
>
> But:
> First method, INFECTS the "Web's Farsi Content" with Arabic characters. (You
> can type Arabic Yeh in your WinXP keyboard map by pressesing Shift+X)
>
> Second method, contains a Web Usability Mistake. It is not a good idea to
> ask your "Web Site Visitors" to download fonts to read the content. A Web
> Usability principle says: Design a Usable web site, instead of asking your
> visitors to make the website Usable for themselves.
>
> I hope you get me my mission,
> My PHP Function Library, makes you able to design a USABLE FARSI website.
> Your visitors no longer need to install an fonts, You can use Farsi "Yeh"
> and "Keh".
>
> But how I solve the problem for Win9x users?
> Follow this algorithm:
>
> if (win9x_user) {
> output "Arabic Content"
> }
> else {
> output "Farsi Content"
> }
>
> I'll tell you more soon. This is not a game, I'm not a newbie programmer
> also.
> I'm a professional XHTML/CSS/PHP webmaster. I'm just trying to do my best
> effort to make the farsi websites more READBLE and USABLE.
> That's all.
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:08:32 -0800 (PST)
> > From: C Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Proud To be An Iranian
> > To: "Sh. Farzanehfar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Message-ID:
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> >
> > Shahram,
> > Not meaning to pick on you personally, but why have you used
> > Arabic Letter Kaf (0643) and Arabic Letter Yeh (064A) on your website?
> >
> > I'm truly, honestly asking out of curiosity. Were the Arabic letters
> > already mapped to your keyboard or did you reprogram it yourself? Maybe
> > you didn't notice??
> >
> > Especially on this very day when someone else has just posted the
> > "solution" to this problem (well, it is not the solution, it is a
> > whitewash but maybe better than nothing), I really can't resist asking and
> > hope you don't get offended. I just can't help wonder since some of us are
> > having to take tranquilizers before looking at Persian websites lest the
> > dots under those Yeh's lead to certain nervous disorders as already
> > discussed on this list.
> >
> > -Connie
> >
> > PS Where is Joe? Did you see over on your
> > http://www.persian-language.org
> > they appear to now be using the Persian equivalents on selected newer
> > articles. I think there is hope on the horizon!
> >
> > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Sh. Farzanehfar wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hope to See all of you Good Friends up there, in a near Future. :)
> > >
> > > http://www.iri-brd.com/Farsi/PAGE/bozorganeiran.htm
> > >
> > > Shahram Farzanehfar
>
>
> ___
> FarsiWeb mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
>
>
___
FarsiWeb mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote: > , but Win9x users > cannot view the "Yeh (U+06CC)" and "Keheh (U+06A9)" correctly, because of an > old version of -default installed- Fonts like Tahoma. How about if some nice person posts some screenshots of BBC's Persian page as seen on both Win98 and Win95 with the default font so we can assess the situation? That should hopefully be with IE 6 which I was told updates the shaping engine and fonts. I may be wrong so please correct me. I too am only looking for the right solution. You're correct that it's not nice to ask people to download fonts but if it's only a one-time IE update, that is not asking too much. -Connie ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
