In later operas, pants roles represent male youths, but they are not
prepubescent. In some cases, their pubescence is very much a part
of the story. Octavian is most certainly not prepubescent. Cherubino
and Siebel are young, but their behavior is clearly that of pubescent
teenagers.
No one has posted a rational response to the complaint that
the Texas Music people are being prejudicial to sissies who sing
soprano.
They are trying to CYA by complaining about singing out of
range crap.
They are obviously being discriminating in their decisions.
The list person who said it was
... Eustazio was also a castrato originally. (I think the part is cut
altogether in later edition.)
mdl
Ouch!
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Raymond Horton wrote:
... Eustazio was also a castrato originally. (I think the part is cut
altogether in later edition.)
Ouch!
Agree with the 'ouch! but ... could that have been phrased a bit more
subtly?
:o
cd
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And i still don't understand the reason for pants roles!
John
Two reasons.
1) In Baroque opera, vocal range was a function of the age of the
character more than its sex. The young hero was a soprano, and so was
his love interest. Her duenna was a tenor. The king/philosopher/father
was a
Well, last summer I heard Michael Manicaci, who lists himself as male
soprano, sing an easily lofted and poised high c that many sopranos would
envy (I'll bet he has range above that). His phrasing and tone in Handel's
Imeneo -- and Orlando the summer before -- were both stunning and beyond
On Jul 23, 2005, at 8:29 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
1) In Baroque opera, vocal range was a function of the age of the
character more than its sex. The young hero was a soprano, and so was
his love interest. Her duenna was a tenor. The king/philosopher/father
was a bass.
2) In later operas,
On Jul 23, 2005, at 2:03 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
I'm anaware of any opera roles written for castrati that are anything
other than major, adult male roles.
Castrati sang minor roles, too. Most of the Handel operas have
multiple castrato roles. In Rinaldo, for instance, in addition to the
At 1:08 PM -0700 7/23/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Jul 23, 2005, at 8:29 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
1) In Baroque opera, vocal range was a function of the age of the
character more than its sex. The young hero was a soprano, and so
was his love interest. Her duenna was a tenor. The
At 2:26 PM -0700 7/23/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
Castrati sang minor roles, too. Most of the Handel operas have
multiple castrato roles. In Rinaldo, for instance, in addition to
the title role, Eustazio was also a castrato originally. (I think
the part is cut altogether in later edition.)
I
On 23 Jul 2005 at 14:22, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Jul 23, 2005, at 2:03 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
I can't think of any where the castrato is specified for a young
man's role.
Idamante in Mozart's Idomeneo (original version) is one example, but I
think you're on to something. . . .
On 23 Jul 2005 at 18:13, John Howell wrote:
At 2:26 PM -0700 7/23/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
Castrati sang minor roles, too. Most of the Handel operas have
multiple castrato roles. In Rinaldo, for instance, in addition to
the title role, Eustazio was also a castrato originally. (I think
the
On Jul 23, 2005, at 3:14 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
I can't think of any where the castrato is specified for a young
man's role.
Idamante in Mozart's Idomeneo (original version) is one example, but I
think you're on to something. . . .
Idamante is not a teenager. He's a young man, no? In
On Jul 23, 2005, at 2:37 PM, John Howell wrote:
If Mark is correct, then Andrew's equating youthfulness with vocal
range makes sense, even though WE would think of a treble (or mezzo)
voice as representing an unchanged boy's voice. It is not, then, a
literal statement that the character has
On 23 Jul 2005 at 17:02, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Jul 23, 2005, at 3:14 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
I can't think of any where the castrato is specified for a young
man's role.
Idamante in Mozart's Idomeneo (original version) is one example,
but I think you're on to something. . . .
On 21 Jul 2005, at 10:13 PM, Tyler Turner wrote:
It is the belief of many professionals that singing
out of one's normal range is bad for the voice.
But the normal range of this student's voice *is* the countertenor
range.
According to the rules, he was free to audition as a tenor (or even
--- Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 21 Jul 2005, at 10:13 PM, Tyler Turner wrote:
It is the belief of many professionals that
singing
out of one's normal range is bad for the voice.
But the normal range of this student's voice *is*
the countertenor
range.
Am I glad I didn't take part in this discussion...
Johannes
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Andrew Stiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
That said, however, the question of whether a countertenor may
legitimately sing a given alto line (let's leave the sopranos out of
it--I never heard of a countertenor who could hit a C above the treble
clef and live to tell about it) is entirely a matter
Chuck Israels wrote:
On Jul 21, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Richard Yates wrote:
Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the group
enacted the rule two years ago because of concerns
that girls auditioning for tenor parts were hurting
their voices by singing too low.
If these old wives tales were true,
Tyler Turner wrote:
[snip]___
When I was in college, my friend and I snuck into the
recital hall for a chance to play on the Steinway
concert grand. The first note my friend played snapped
a string on the piano.
Ah, was it a jazz note or a
Tyler Turner wrote:
[snip]
My point was in part to say that it wasn't necessary.
But if you're interested, there are many articles on
the subject. Here's one:
http://www1.wfubmc.edu/voice/nodules/singer.htm
[snip]
Thanks for that link -- it seems very good. While there is a statement
that
At 7/22/2005 12:57 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:
I agree with John Howell that any individual can be rejected for
specific reasons which might be correlated with his sex, without the
need for a blanket rule banning the sex outright. The idea of
auditioning the voices blind is interesting, but I think
Phil Daley wrote:
At 7/22/2005 12:57 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:
I agree with John Howell that any individual can be rejected for
specific reasons which might be correlated with his sex, without the
need for a blanket rule banning the sex outright. The idea of
auditioning the voices blind is
At 9:57 PM -0700 7/21/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
That's why the whole business of auditioning blind seems a little
fanciful to me. We talk about fairness as if every child should be
judged on his or her voice and musical talent alone, but that's
already unrealistic.
Hi again, Mark. On the
At 10:03 PM -0700 7/21/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Jul 21, 2005, at 2:50 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
That said, however, the question of whether a countertenor may
legitimately sing a given alto line (let's leave the sopranos out
of it--I never heard of a countertenor who could hit a C above the
On 21 Jul 2005 at 19:13, Tyler Turner wrote:
It is the belief of many professionals that singing
out of one's normal range is bad for the voice.
Whether we agree or disagree is not the issue here.
The issue is the motivation for the rule. This is a
valid possibility. The burden of proof does
At 7/22/2005 02:44 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 21 Jul 2005 at 19:13, Tyler Turner wrote:
It is the belief of many professionals that singing
out of one's normal range is bad for the voice.
Whether we agree or disagree is not the issue here.
The issue is the motivation for the rule. This
On 21 Jul 2005 at 21:57, Mark D Lew wrote:
That's why the whole business of auditioning blind seems a little
fanciful to me. We talk about fairness as if every child should be
judged on his or her voice and musical talent alone, but that's already
unrealistic.
I have no opinion on the
On 21 Jul 2005 at 22:14, Tyler Turner wrote:
--- Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It is the belief of many professionals that
singing
out of one's normal range is bad for the voice.
The question was whether or not it causes injury.
Injury to the voice, right? Every vocal
At 10:13 PM 7/21/2005, you wrote:
It is the belief of many professionals that singing
out of one's normal range is bad for the voice.
Whether we agree or disagree is not the issue here.
The issue is the motivation for the rule.
Exactly. If the motivation is to protect *en masse* all those who
On 22 Jul 2005 at 10:51, John Howell wrote:
Our (very good) community chorus has
one (count them, ONE!) female tenor, and yes, that is her natural and
healthy voice range. She dresses as the women do, and stands at the
border between the tenors and the altos. No physical distraction,
--- David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
So, we can actually agree on the premise behind the
justification
given for the rule and still see the rule as being
WRONG, precisely
because the rule PREVENTS certain singers from
singing in their
normal voice range.
Yes. I don't
On 22 Jul 2005 at 13:28, Tyler Turner wrote:
--- David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
So, we can actually agree on the premise behind the
justification
given for the rule and still see the rule as being
WRONG, precisely
because the rule PREVENTS certain singers from
For whatever it may be worth, Maggie Roche has been singing tenor
professionally for 35 years without perceptible ill effect.
What's that you say? Pop singers don't count? I rather think they do.
Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/
City Band.
Ph: (02) 62910787. Band Mob. 0439-620587
Private Mob 0417-042171
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Andrew Stiller
Sent: Saturday, 23 July 2005 7:03 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Countertenor barred from Texas All
On Jul 22, 2005, at 2:57 PM, Phil Daley wrote:
What about teachers who force basses to sing tenor because they are
short of tenors?
Isn't that the same problem? I don't see them outlawing that.
In my college band, we had to sing our college songs from time to
time. The conductor (who
At 7:16 AM +1000 7/23/05, keith helgesen wrote:
Does anyone remember details of a legendry singer- South American, I think
called Yma Sumac? - hope I have the spelling sort of correct!
As a youngster I remember being amazed when told she had a six octave+
useable vocal register.
Watch it,
On 22 Jul 2005 at 18:12, John Howell wrote:
Several writers have hinted at this, but let me say it straight out.
Male sopranos in renaissance music were NOT very often castrati (a
practice the church did not approve of, but did take advantage of),
and were not always boys at churches without
At 06:12 PM 7/22/05 -0400, John Howell wrote:
Watch it, Keith; you're giving away our age! Yes, I remember her
well. Allegedly from Bolivia or some equally exotic place, the word
on the street was that she was really from Brooklyn. And I thought
it was more like a 5-octave range, but who's
At 6:41 PM -0400 7/22/05, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 22 Jul 2005 at 18:12, John Howell wrote:
Several writers have hinted at this, but let me say it straight out.
Male sopranos in renaissance music were NOT very often castrati (a
practice the church did not approve of, but did take advantage
At 06:12 PM 7/22/05 -0400, John Howell wrote:
a viable and big baritone range and could take her voice up at least
to Queen of the Night range
Speaking of which, one of the most astounding -- and strange, thin,
beautiful -- voices I'd heard was Mado Robin. Anybody know her work? I have
one
On Jul 22, 2005, at 3:35 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Thanks for that link -- it seems very good. While there is a
statement that singing out of range may cause nodules, it doesn't
define how to determine that. Many females who sing tenor do so
because it is their natural range. Many males who sing
On Jul 22, 2005, at 4:19 AM, Phil Daley wrote:
I am surprised that any states do not use blind judging.
How do they eliminate the possibility that a judge would know a
student and then use that information in the resulting rating?
The states I have worked in all used blind judging.
Nearly
On 22 Jul 2005 at 18:53, Mark D Lew wrote:
As for the male singing soprano, both Darcy and David F made a similar
point by claiming that the Texas countertenor is singing in his
normal range. I think semantics is getting in the way of
information here. I don't want to tangle with the words
On Jul 22, 2005, at 3:12 PM, John Howell wrote:
Does anyone remember details of a legendry singer- South American, I
think
called Yma Sumac? - hope I have the spelling sort of correct!
As a youngster I remember being amazed when told she had a six octave+
useable vocal register.
Watch it,
At 6:53 PM -0700 7/22/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
Sure, cross-gender portrayals are commonplace in opera, too.
Personally, I rather like that sort of thing, and I've even used it
intentionally on occasion when I've had the opportunity to design a
program. If I'm directing a chorus where I'm
At 7:12 PM -0700 7/22/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
Mariah Carey's top isn't that much beyond Queen of the Night. The
whistle tones in her early songs were typically around F, G and A in
the same octave as the QotN F. I remember one song in which she
went up to Bb.
Actually I've transcribed some
On Jul 22, 2005, at 7:07 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
You're making the same mistake as the Texas rulemakers.
No, I'm not.
You're looking at normal for the population of men.
We're looking at normal for individuals.
No, what you are doing is misreading my words in order to play games
John Howell wrote:
At 7:12 PM -0700 7/22/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
Several opera singers have made fine careers with a range no larger
than two octaves. About two and a half is typical for a well-trained
singer, about three for a particularly versatile one.
I'm always amazed to note that even
On Jul 22, 2005, at 7:14 PM, John Howell wrote:
And i still don't understand the reason for pants roles!
Persistence of tradition, mostly. In the early days there were
high-voice male roles written for castrati. Traditionally the
pants-role characters were callow young men (but not
On Jul 22, 2005, at 3:12 PM, John Howell wrote:
If I'm right about his voice type, it was what the French call haute
contre, and I later had two students with this same type of voice,
with the power of the male chest voice carried up higher into the
mezzo range. I believe that the next Pro
On Jul 22, 2005, at 7:27 PM, John Howell wrote:
Mariah Carey's top isn't that much beyond Queen of the Night. The
whistle tones in her early songs were typically around F, G and A in
the same octave as the QotN F. I remember one song in which she went
up to Bb.
Actually I've transcribed
: [Finale] OT: Countertenor barred from Texas All-State Choir
I can think of plenty of good reasons to want to keep a boy out of the
soprano section of a choir, and likewise for keeping the girls out of
the tenor section.
And those reasons would be?
Richard Yates
keith helgesen wrote:
No-one would surely claim that a counter-tenor sounds the same as a female
soprano- nor would they want to.
One often hears of the shock-horror of purists at the news of 'femsops'
singing parts written for countertenors.
Quite right too.
A good clarinet or sop sax
At 7/20/2005 09:01 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
I think this thing has been blown way out of proportion. In
particular, turning it into a red state issue, in which all us
enlightened people insult and ridicule those stupid Middle Americans
for their supposed backwardness, is way out of line. Even if
No-one would surely claim that a counter-tenor sounds the same as a female
soprano- nor would they want to.
One often hears of the shock-horror of purists at the news of 'femsops'
singing parts written for countertenors.
Quite right too.
If any particular countertenor does not sound right to
At 6:01 PM -0700 7/20/05, Mark D Lew wrote:
Some of the commentary treats it as if it's a civil rights issue,
like the state is denying the kid his right to sing countertenor.
Hogwash. He can sing countertenor all he likes. They're just
saying they don't have a spot for him in the soprano
At 5:17 PM +1000 7/21/05, keith helgesen wrote:
No-one would surely claim that a counter-tenor sounds the same as a female
soprano- nor would they want to.
One often hears of the shock-horror of purists at the news of 'femsops'
singing parts written for countertenors.
Quite right too.
Hi,
--- Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No-one would surely claim that a counter-tenor
sounds the same as a female
soprano- nor would they want to.
One often hears of the shock-horror of purists at
the news of 'femsops'
singing parts written for countertenors.
Quite right too.
At 9:33 AM -0700 7/21/05, Tyler Turner wrote:
If you let this boy into the Texas All-State Choir as a soprano,
you must also allow him to be a contender for soprano
solos. It's not fair to any other member of that choir
to have their performance tainted by a vocal quality
or gender role that
At 7/21/2005 12:33 PM, Tyler Turner wrote:
All-State Choir. Taylor said the policy doesn't amount
to discrimination because Rawls can try out for any of
the more traditional male parts.
He cannot sing those parts. This is stupid.
I'm sorry, but the world is bigger than this boy. He
has found
At 9:33 AM -0700 7/21/05, Tyler Turner wrote:
Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the group
enacted the rule two years ago because of concerns
that girls auditioning for tenor parts were hurting
their voices by singing too low.
Hi, Tyler! You are certainlly entitled to your opinion, and
On 21 Jul 2005 at 17:17, keith helgesen wrote:
No-one would surely claim that a counter-tenor sounds the same as a female
soprano- nor would they want to.
One often hears of the shock-horror of purists at the news of 'femsops'
singing parts written for countertenors.
Quite right too.
A
At 7/21/2005 02:17 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
And it wouldn't surprise me if there were repertory on the all-state
choir's program that was originally written for all men, with no
women at all (you realize that women were mostly prohibited from
singing in church at all until the 18th century or
On Jul 21, 2005, at 1:34 PM, John Howell wrote:
A countertenor is a male alto, or more rarely a male soprano. Therefore any piece of music that has an alto and/or a soprano part is suitable for countertenor. Q.E.D.
Though I totally agree with the overall argument from which this is snipped,
Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the group
enacted the rule two years ago because of concerns
that girls auditioning for tenor parts were hurting
their voices by singing too low.
This, then, is the crux of the reasoning. These questions about the claim
then follow:
Are such concerns
--- Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the group
enacted the rule two years ago because of concerns
that girls auditioning for tenor parts were
hurting
their voices by singing too low.
This, then, is the crux of the reasoning. These
On Jul 21, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Richard Yates wrote:"Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the groupenacted the rule two years ago because of concernsthat girls auditioning for tenor parts were hurtingtheir voices by singing too low. If these old wives tales were true, more of us would be blind
With
Texas music education being among the most competitive
in the country, there are certainly cases of teachers
going with whatever works, regardless of where a
singer's natural voice lies and should be developed.
This does not answer the question as to whether or not it hurts their
On 22 Jul 2005, at 01:50, Chuck Israels wrote:"Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the groupenacted the rule two years ago because of concernsthat girls auditioning for tenor parts were hurtingtheir voices by singing too low.If these old wives tales were true, more of us would be blind :-)Many
--- Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
With
Texas music education being among the most
competitive
in the country, there are certainly cases of
teachers
going with whatever works, regardless of where a
singer's natural voice lies and should be
developed.
This does not answer
John Bell wrote:
On 22 Jul 2005, at 01:50, Chuck Israels wrote:
Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the group
enacted the rule two years ago because of concerns
that girls auditioning for tenor parts were hurting
their voices by singing too low.
If these old wives tales were true, more
--- Raymond Horton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John Bell wrote:
On 22 Jul 2005, at 01:50, Chuck Israels wrote:
Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the
group
enacted the rule two years ago because of
concerns
that girls auditioning for tenor parts were
hurting
their voices by
It is the belief of many professionals that singing
out of one's normal range is bad for the voice.
The question was whether or not it causes injury.
Whether we agree or disagree is not the issue here.
The issue is the motivation for the rule. This is a
valid possibility. The burden of
"Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the
group
enacted the rule two years ago because of
concerns
that girls auditioning for tenor parts were
hurting
their voices by singing too
low.
If indeed that particular thread
of logic could be defended by Amy
On Jul 21, 2005, at 3:15 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Does that logic apply to the women singing tenor, also? Remember,
they are barred as well.
Definitely. I'd be much more predisposed against a woman singing tenor
than against a man singing soprano. I can think of three or four male
altos I've
On Jul 21, 2005, at 2:50 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
That said, however, the question of whether a countertenor may
legitimately sing a given alto line (let's leave the sopranos out of
it--I never heard of a countertenor who could hit a C above the treble
clef and live to tell about it) [...]
--- Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It is the belief of many professionals that
singing
out of one's normal range is bad for the voice.
The question was whether or not it causes injury.
Injury to the voice, right? Every vocal authority
I've spoken to about the subject has told
On Jul 21, 2005, at 8:05 PM, Richard Yates wrote:
A lie? Who said anything about lying? I originally asked for possible
rationales for not allowing a male student to sing alto or soprano.
One of
your suggested explanations was that singing out of range could cause
injury. I asked for evidence
At 7/19/2005 11:17 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Off-topic, of course, and submitted without comment, but some may find
this LA Times editorial interesting:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-soprano11jul11,0,369179.story
Yes, I already read that article. It was in our local newspaper.
Phil Daley wrote:
At 7/19/2005 11:17 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Off-topic, of course, and submitted without comment, but some may find
this LA Times editorial interesting:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-soprano11jul11,0,369179.story
Yes, I already read that article. It was
On 7/19/05, Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Off-topic, of course, and submitted without comment, but some may find
this LA Times editorial interesting:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-soprano11jul11,0,369179.story
I'm not sure why they felt the need to drag in the
dhbailey schrieb:
On a Finale note (just to keep it somewhat relevant): it'll be wise not
to make any arrangements for school-age groups which include
countertenor, not if you want to sell them in Texas.
Well, I really hope that MakeMusic will take this excellent opportunity
to develop yet
Title: Re: [Finale] OT: Countertenor barred from Texas
All-State
At 11:17 PM -0400 7/19/05, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Off-topic, of course, and submitted
without comment, but some may find this LA Times editorial
interesting:
On 20 Jul 2005 at 7:46, dhbailey wrote:
Phil Daley wrote:
At 7/19/2005 11:17 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Off-topic, of course, and submitted without comment, but some may find
this LA Times editorial interesting:
Without having an understanding of the full history of
this issue, the measures and time needed to change the
system, and the possible negative implications of
doing so (for example, how many teachers are really
qualified to teach a young man to do this without
ruining his voice?), I don't feel
On Jul 20, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Tyler Turner wrote:
Without having an understanding of the full history of
this issue, the measures and time needed to change the
system, and the possible negative implications of
doing so (for example, how many teachers are really
qualified to teach a young man to
Mark,
It's not Mike's school, it's the *all-state* choir (i.e., statewide
honor choir) that ruled he was ineligible to participate based on his
voice type.
- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY
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I can think of plenty of good reasons to want to keep a boy out of the
soprano section of a choir, and likewise for keeping the girls out of
the tenor section.
And those reasons would be?
Richard Yates
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