Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
shirling neueweise wrote: hi all, i am submitting a proposal to CODA, It's a nice list, but I think that getting compact and reliable PS, EPS, and PDF output would be sufficient for one year's upgrade. If this is supposed to be a tool for publishing, it has got to be able to output in the principle formats for publication. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
The other thing is that I am not convinced that merging the text and the expression tools is such a good idea. Instead I would prefer to have some better options for placing text blocks and for handling them in part extraction. My main requests are: 1) Allow measure attached text blocks to be placed on page coordinates. This would immensely facilitate the creation of Titles and footnotes, and would prevent some of the mess that is created every time I extract parts. 2) Allow title pages without music to be carried into extracted parts. 3) Give the File Info more custom fields which can then be included in text blocks (this would make house styles much easier to set up). Johannes d. collins wrote: Daniel Wolf écrit: It's a nice list, but I think that getting compact and reliable PS, EPS, and PDF output would be sufficient for one year's upgrade. If this is supposed to be a tool for publishing, it has got to be able to output in the principle formats for publication. I can only agree. I'm not in favor of requesting any new bells and whistles as long as such important features are broken (EPS export AND import, which no one mentions). Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
Hmm, not around here. Generally girls still in high school and younger are mademoiselle, along with any woman you are hitting on, otherwise they are all madame. But your point stands. Christopher On Feb 22, 2005, at 7:59 PM, HERMAN GERSTEN wrote: I was just being polite, Christopher. That's all. Don't the French use mademoiselle the same way? On Feb 22, 2005, at 3:34 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Umm, just wondering, but what makes you think Crystal is young? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
On Feb 22, 2005, at 11:24 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I see no one in this discussion making any attempt whatsoever to dissuade you or Crystal or anyone else from their personal esthetic reactions to art -- all the disputation has been entirely on non- esthetic issues. And some of the non-esthetic issues are extremely interesting! For example, the fact that the artist manages to pay for the ENTIRE humongous work himself fascinates me. What a fantastic example for other artists! And the nature of the installation itself - quite a bit more subtle than huge photos of naked crowds, can't ignore it very easily just the same, huge reactions from everyone either hating it or loving it, discussions about the nature of art and what this particular work means... Hold on a minute, I just realised something. Christo - Crystal, it's all a little too convenient, isn't it? She(he) comes innocently into our little list, seeding discussions and increasing the publicity of the work they must be the same person! Has anyone ever seen them both in the same room at the same time? OK, Christo or Crystal or whatever you want to call yourself, we're on to you! 8-)=) (enormous toothy grin) Christopher (Wait a minute Christo/Christopher, has anyone ever seen ME in the same room with him? I could be him, too! Or for that matter, I could even be Crystal. Man, is my wife going to be upset.) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
Jef I too, have changes I'd like to see with the text tool, and some of them are consistent with some of what you propose, but before I comment further, perhaps you could please address the issue of what benefits you see arising from your proposal to merging what is currently the list of the text subset of the expression tool, with the list of the text tool. Personally, I just don't see enough benefit to such a merger to justify this proposed combination. Frankly, some of the issues you raise, while they make sense for one side--as an example, the capability of greater control over typographical issues makes a great deal of sense in the current text tool--seem unnecessary on the other--when the text string contains only one line, or a single character, full justification seems like a bit of overkill. Further, I'm not sure that I think it's a salutary change to force me to read through all the dynamics text expressions when I want to edit the critical footnotes, or vice versa, or in a more extreme case, in a current project, where I've created a program for an upcoming performance of the Bach St. John Passion, entirely within Finale, using Text blocks for the text, with the original German on the left, and the English translation on the right, and the chorales notated in-line, so that, should they choose, members of the audience can sing along. I currently have in my probram, 14 chorales, and 315 text blocks, without yet adding dynamics, or other text expressions to that number. Finally, the biggest shortcomings I see in the text tool do not seem to be addressed: 1) the inability to access the attributes of a text block from the text block edit dialog of that same block; 2) the inability to assign the same text block to discontinuous ranges of pages, as in 2-5, 6-9; 3) the inability to address the text attributes sequentially, by stepping through the list; and 4) the inability to access a particular range of text blocks, say, to make a change in ten blocks beginning with number 250. and one major shortcoming I see in the text expression tool, 5) the inability to group expressions into collections, so that in my expression list, I could define a group, dynamics, place all the dynamics related expressions into that, and collapse the group when I wanted to view only the tempo related text expressions. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
On Feb 23, 2005, at 1:41 AM, shirling neueweise wrote: GENERAL * Text can be assigned to an individual note or measure (as with the old Expression Tool) or to a page or range of pages (as with the old Text Tool). * Once assigned, default positioning of the individual Text can be altered or overridden, by double-clicking the text's handle in the score, clicking override, and redefining the positioning (this does not affect the original). I am wondering how this would work out in a score. There is already the issue that crops up when trying to assign note-attached versus measure-attached text expressions - if you enter the wrong type you have to delete the expression and start over. On the other hand, if you are working ONLY with one type for the moment, it is fast and easy. I would hate to add mouse-clicks to the process. Is this clear enough? Did you have an idea about how the interface would work in this case? Otherwise it looks very clean and presentable (with capitals and everything! We're so proud!) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
At 05:31 AM 2/23/05 -0600, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: you could please address the issue of what benefits you see arising from your proposal to merging what is currently the list of the text subset of the expression tool, with the list of the text tool. I think merging all the text-like types is long overdue. Characters are characters, individually or combined. Folding together the text, expression, articulation, chord, lyric, clef, and time signature tools into a multifunction toolbar with a consistent interface seems ideal to me. A single toolbar could identify the type of text in use (in a droplist, where it could be changed), the activity is performs (where, say, the title could load up Midi presets or a lyric enable a patch change), its assignment (note, measure, staff, system, page, or document), etc. Like other applications do, a droplist on a toolbar would identify the current method of assignment (say, as an expression), its active (and available) parameters, and its positioning (with, say, a relative/absolute checkbox). I would love to see, on clicking an object, to what other object it was assigned (even though I prefer rubber bands, another discussion), its playback functions, etc. -- just as I would do when clicking on a vector object in a graphics program. A drag-drop icon could allow the present selected item to be dragged and attached to whatever it was dropped on. A duplicate button similar to the present one could live right there on the toobar. Then by changing the droplist for the duplicate I could, say, change a copied chord symbol into an expression, take some of lyrics and re-assign them as a title, make 4.6/3.3 or M/IV or HX or 4/4(=12/12) or Yay! into time signatures, give a clef change a bundle of Midi parameters, and so forth. A list could be opened from the toolbar with the existing expressions to drag-drop into place, or it could pop up by clicking a spot on the score as it does now. The opening contents of longer texts would be shown, and the text full box could be opened or it could be edited in place. (Even the tuplet and measure number text could show up on this toolbar.) *Any* element could be assigned vector-type stretchiness or smartness as well -- useful in, for example, stretching a crescendo and making sure it was parenthesized on succeeding pages, squashing a lyric syllable horizontally or vertically, stretching time signatures across multiple staves, or making small adjustments in a tight-fit situation. Along with stretchiness, they could be assigned various standard extensions (dots, dashes, lines, curves, custom). So the present main dialog boxes could be reduced to this toolbar, always visible, and sub-functions (such as staff lists or time signature patterning) could be popped up as needed. In other words, the division of all these textual elements by immutable, pre-determined 'musical' function was a mistake that it's now possible to correct. Out of the box, Finale's texts, articulations, expressions, chords, lyrics, clefs, and time signatures would still be assigned in their default state, but a few clicks would make possible enormous flexibility that requires workarounds now. All these functions seem to be available in the Finale data, and would ask only for a reorganization of its use and a relatively small change to the user interface. So I think jef is very much on the right track, but I'd like to see Finale go farther in overhauling the entire text-assignment system. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
At 01:41 AM 02/23/2005, shirling neueweise wrote:
* The height of the individual item lines in the
Text List has been increased by 25-50%
(previously, any Text above 14pt fixed and many
music symbols - usually 24pt - were only
partially visible). The user can define the size
of the lines in the Document Options [Text]:
{smaller, small, normal, big, bigger}; or as a
percentage of the default size {50%, 75%, 100%,
150%, 200%}
Better (I think): The individual text items are scaled for display in the
list so that they are reasonably legible. I don't want a big item height,
because it takes up valuable screen space. I want a height of (say) 14 pts
or so, and then I want everything scaled to 14 pts for display in this
dialog. This is how TGTools Text Expression Browser handles things. You do
lose a sense of the relative sizes of different text items, but I think the
tradeoff is worth it.
Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
At 06:31 AM 02/23/2005, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: 5) the inability to group expressions into collections, so that in my expression list, I could define a group, dynamics, place all the dynamics related expressions into that, and collapse the group when I wanted to view only the tempo related text expressions. FWIW, you can do something like this with the TGTools Expression Browser (Win only, I think). The list there can be sorted alphabetically, rather than in Finale's default order, or it can be sorted by various font criteria and then alphabetically. So for example, all of the expressions in Maestro appear first in the list (these would be dynamics). Then a section with 12 pt. text (unis, arco, pizz, etc.). Then a section with 14 pt bold text (tempo markings, etc.) You can't collapse the sections the way you want, but it sure does make it easier to find things. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Christo's The Gates, NYC Central Park
At 06:29 AM 2/23/05 -0500, Christopher Smith wrote: Or for that matter, I could even be Crystal. Man, is my wife going to be upset. Or not. :) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Cracker gates
Could someone please give me the URL to the cracker gates that was in yesterday's digest. Many thanks. JR John Ranck [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 05:31 AM 2/23/05 -0600, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: you could please address the issue of what benefits you see arising from your proposal to merging what is currently the list of the text subset of the expression tool, with the list of the text tool. I think merging all the text-like types is long overdue. Characters are characters, individually or combined. Folding together the text, expression, articulation, chord, lyric, clef, and time signature tools into a multifunction toolbar with a consistent interface seems ideal to me. I understand you point, that the interface to these tools might well bear some modification, and perhaps unification. However, there is a difference between the interface, the dialog box(es) and the objects upon which they operate. One can certainly have different tools that operate on the same object, and different objects acted on by the same tool. But just because the objects are acted on by the same tool, even if they happened to look the same, doesn't autmatically and necessarily demand that they be part of the same list. This is what both Jef and you seem to propose, and while Ive not yet made up my mind relative to a single tool for all text items, neither you, Jef did not originally, and you do not in your supporting post, address the issue of merging the lists that Jef seems to propose. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] how to get the best possible sound output
Godofredo Romero / 05.2.22 / 06:41 PM wrote: I have being able to deliver are piano parts and solo instruments but no matter what I do when I try to do the same with the full score I simply cant' get it done, it sounds like garbage cans rattled by alley cats. Do you mean you get distortion? If so, there are only two possible reasons that I can think of. CPU overload or amplitude overload. There are different solutions to these. What sound source are you using? QT? How realistic your output has to be? If you need descent musical output, you'd first need a sequencer program so you can shape the sound using volume/ch-pressure automation on each instrument. I found Finale's HP quite annoying so I don't use it. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
At 04:16 PM 2/23/05 -0600, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: One can certainly have different tools that operate on the same object, and different objects acted on by the same tool. But just because the objects are acted on by the same tool, even if they happened to look the same, doesn't autmatically and necessarily demand that they be part of the same list. I don't think I'm being clear. These all all interchangeable texts, with aspects of function assigned. They are only different in Finale because the program started out making them different. They were once all engraved with the same tools, and software separated them out. Now it's time to put them back together and *increase* our flexibility instead of remain straightjacked by our tools. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Question About Staff Order
Hi - I'm notating a song that has a vocal staff and an alto recorder staff. Is there a rule about which staff should be the top one in each system? The recorder begins the song, then the vocals take over, then the recorder re-enters in the middle of the song... Thanks! Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] how to get the best possible sound output
The output I dream about has to be as realistic and professional as possible. I get disapointed because the sound I get - which is what Finale is giving me- is poor. Do you mean that I have to transfer my Finale files onto a sequencer program and twiddle them there? Which sequencers do you suggest? Thank you for your and everybody elses concern. Godofredo A-NO-NE Music wrote: Godofredo Romero / 05.2.22 / 06:41 PM wrote: I have being able to deliver are piano parts and solo instruments but no matter what I do when I try to do the same with the full score I simply cant' get it done, it sounds like garbage cans rattled by alley cats. Do you mean you get distortion? If so, there are only two possible reasons that I can think of. CPU overload or amplitude overload. There are different solutions to these. What sound source are you using? QT? How realistic your output has to be? If you need descent musical output, you'd first need a sequencer program so you can shape the sound using volume/ch-pressure automation on each instrument. I found Finale's HP quite annoying so I don't use it. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
At 04:16 PM 2/23/05 -0600, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Jef did not originally, and you do not in your supporting post, address the issue of merging the lists that Jef seems to propose. I'm just being supplementary. But think of a Palm and how it organizes addresses by categories. It's a droplist of choices. You can choose any category you name, or all, and you see those elements. So you could have the lists sorted the old way or any way, and it would all be available. Opera's mail client does that, and I think Gmail as well. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: I don't think I'm being clear. These all all interchangeable texts, with aspects of function assigned. They are only different in Finale because the program started out making them different. They were once all engraved with the same tools, and software separated them out. Now it's time to put them back together and *increase* our flexibility instead of remain straightjacked by our tools. I am not against this, but I fail to see how I would benefit? There is no reason why I would want my title text blocks appear in the expression list, it would only convolut it more. OK, I know that you have ideas on how to get more organization into these lists. I have been thinking about this several times now, and I still don't see why I would want text blocks and expressions be merged into one tool. In what way would I then get faster results? In what way does this increase our flexibility? I know we need improvements to the text tool, and probably there is still ways to improve the expressions tool. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Notation for Recorder
Hi, Everyone - I have another question about notating for alto recorder! Does anyone know how you notate those slides they do - like when they hit a low note and kind of float up to a higher note? Or when they hit a note and kind of droop down to the next note. Don't know if I'm explaining this right, but it's done frequently in Celtic style recorder playing! I have an mp3 file (18 seconds) that would show what I'm talking about but I wasn't sure if it's okay to post attachments to this list! Thanks for any help with this! I've never notated for recorder before, so between that and learning Finale(!) - I just figured out how to do the grace notes, but just wasn't sure how to notate these slide things... - Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation for Recorder
In a message dated 23/02/2005 23:10:02 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does anyone know how you notate those "slides" they do - like when they hita low note and kind of "float" up to a higher note? When I've come across this type of thing it hasn't been notated, it's something you add as an improvised ornament. Would the standard glissando mark be used for this? I've seen the indication "bend" in some music which wants this type of thing, but this was "jazzy" type stuff, not Celtic. All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:07:32 -0500, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 04:16 PM 2/23/05 -0600, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Jef did not originally, and you do not in your supporting post, address the issue of merging the lists that Jef seems to propose. I'm just being supplementary. But think of a Palm and how it organizes addresses by categories. It's a droplist of choices. You can choose any category you name, or all, and you see those elements. So you could have the lists sorted the old way or any way, and it would all be available. Opera's mail client does that, and I think Gmail as well. Even better than merely categories, Gmail has Labels. You can attach any number of labels to a particular message, rather than having to pigeonhole it into on specific category. This kind of flat hierarchy is gaining ground for Internet-based information storage; an online social bookmarking site I use, called del.icio.us ( http://del.icio.us ) does a similar thing but calls the groups tags instead. I really like that method of organization. What if an email message or bookmark fits equally under the headings notation, music, and finale? With the flat hierarchy you can separate all three of these concepts but still place single items into all three groups if it's logical to do so. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com FinaleIRC (come chat!): http://finaleirc.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] how to get the best possible sound output
Godofredo, Start with Garritan and a decent set of powered computer speakers or studio monitors. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Feb 2005, at 6:12 PM, Godofredo Romero wrote: The output I dream about has to be as realistic and professional as possible. I get disapointed because the sound I get - which is what Finale is giving me- is poor. Do you mean that I have to transfer my Finale files onto a sequencer program and twiddle them there? Which sequencers do you suggest? Thank you for your and everybody elses concern. Godofredo A-NO-NE Music wrote: Godofredo Romero / 05.2.22 / 06:41 PM wrote: I have being able to deliver are piano parts and solo instruments but no matter what I do when I try to do the same with the full score I simply cant' get it done, it sounds like garbage cans rattled by alley cats. Do you mean you get distortion? If so, there are only two possible reasons that I can think of. CPU overload or amplitude overload. There are different solutions to these. What sound source are you using? QT? How realistic your output has to be? If you need descent musical output, you'd first need a sequencer program so you can shape the sound using volume/ch-pressure automation on each instrument. I found Finale's HP quite annoying so I don't use it. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
At 07:41 23.02.2005, you wrote: Because of overlapping functionality, the previous expression tool and text tool have been combined into one powerful text tool which offers all the previous features of both tools, albeit with some revolutionary improvements. I would NOT mingle the two tools since they have an entirely other functionality. However, I'd like some of the things you mention, but in the Text Tool where I might use them. Kurt ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] how to get the best possible sound output
Godofredo Romero / 05.2.23 / 06:12 PM wrote: The output I dream about has to be as realistic and professional as possible. I get disapointed because the sound I get - which is what Finale is giving me- is poor. Do you mean that I have to transfer my Finale files onto a sequencer program and twiddle them there? Which sequencers do you suggest? When I was working for Broadway shows, the only way I could possibly produce satisfactory results of imitating the real orchestra was, not to transfer Finale data to sequencer, but to play each line by hand into sequencer by reading the parts of Finale output. I use K2600Rs with real samples of real musicians instead of canned onboard samples. Yet I have to tweak the decay of the note by automating the volume data. Attack time of strings is another issue, too. My choice of sequencer is MOTU Digital Performer. I also have Logic but I simply couldn't think music with Lego blocks. A piece of advice on monitoring. Back when I switched from Alesis monitor to Generic active monitor with sub, I was shocked to hear some annoying high from sampled sound. My favorite samples were not that great after all, but I didn't know that till I got the better monitor. I had to change my way of mixing a lot. Granted, Generic has some hyped high, but my point is that knowing your monitor is the key. If your monitor and room is not reproducing the accurate sound, your music might sound only good in your room but no where else. P.S. Nope, I am not too happy with Generic anymore. I am planning to move to Dynaudio now. Mackie HR824 is another good one if you are looking for one :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Condensed Lyric Font
Hi all, Does anyone know of a decent, free, *condensed* Times lookalike font that would be suitable for lyrics? I know I can buy Times Condensed, but perhaps there's a good freeware alternative? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
On 24 Feb 2005 at 0:10, Johannes Gebauer wrote: There is no reason why I would want my title text blocks appear in the expression list, it would only convolut it more. OK, I know that you have ideas on how to get more organization into these lists. I have been thinking about this several times now, and I still don't see why I would want text blocks and expressions be merged into one tool. In what way would I then get faster results? In what way does this increase our flexibility? I tend to agree with you. What I *would* support is if the text expression dialog's text box at the top were instead replaced with the standard Finale text editor. Then you could put anything in the text expression that you could put into the text editor, and the user interface would be exactly the same in both places. Text expresssions would then be text blocks with additional expression-only properties added to them. How they are actually store, well, I couldn't give a rat's ass! This all goes back to my subclassing argument about how I think expressions and articulations really ought to work. In the scenario I've described, text expressions would be a superclass of text blocks, inheriting all the capabilities of a standard text block (and the same way of editing and manipulating them) while adding the properties necessary for expressions. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
On 23 Feb 2005 at 15:30, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:07:32 -0500, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 04:16 PM 2/23/05 -0600, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Jef did not originally, and you do not in your supporting post, address the issue of merging the lists that Jef seems to propose. I'm just being supplementary. But think of a Palm and how it organizes addresses by categories. It's a droplist of choices. You can choose any category you name, or all, and you see those elements. So you could have the lists sorted the old way or any way, and it would all be available. Opera's mail client does that, and I think Gmail as well. Even better than merely categories, Gmail has Labels. You can attach any number of labels to a particular message, rather than having to pigeonhole it into on specific category. There's nothing about categories that requires there be only one per object. Microsoft's Outlook uses categories, and you can assign as many as you like to any kind of object you like. And then you can adjust your view of the objects to be sorted by categories or any other way you like. This kind of flat hierarchy is gaining ground for Internet-based information storage; an online social bookmarking site I use, called del.icio.us ( http://del.icio.us ) does a similar thing but calls the groups tags instead. This is highly problematic, in my opinion, for two reasons: 1. it's *too* simply (non-hierarchical where the natural organization actually is hierarchical. 2. there is no authority anywhere to enforce consistency in use of the tags. I really like that method of organization. What if an email message or bookmark fits equally under the headings notation, music, and finale? With the flat hierarchy you can separate all three of these concepts but still place single items into all three groups if it's logical to do so. This is what I wrote about the current Internet darling, tags, in another forum: I am amused by this whole discussion of tagging on websites, because it seems to me that my 15 years of experience in designing database applications and looking at other people's implementations of categorization systems has taught me that this kind of thing is *not* simple. There are several problems: 1. proper categorization is not flat -- it is hierarchical. With a flat tagging system, you need to double up the categories. If your item is about Museums--Musical Instruments you need to have a tag for Museums, a tag for Museums--Musical Instruments and a tag for Musical Instruments. In a hierarchically organized categorization system, that isn't required -- you need only the one tag, Museums-- Musical Instruments (which is a combination of category and subcategory). As Joe Celko has showed us in many SQL articles, it's easy enough to create n-level hierarchical trees and retrieve data from them without needing to have a complex data storage structure. This allows both the construction of the full complex tree, as well as easy searching of all levels of the tree. 2. for categorization to truly work, there needs to be some enforcement of rules for the encoding of the categories. Otherwise, you need to build a lot of smarts into your search engine. For example, if you want to search for Music a simple dumb search will not return items tagged only with Symphony unless the person doing the tagging has insured that the item is also tagged with Music (it's super-category). Now, a smart search engine could use a heirarchical category list as a lookup to find related subjects, but the result will only be as good as the quality of that lookup list. A perfect example of a failed lookup list is TiVo's recommendations. The that works is that the TiVo looks at the categories of the programs you've chosen to record (and have given thumbs up to, i.e., told the TiVo that it's a program that you really like), and then finds other programs in the same categories and suggests them to you. When I first got the TiVo, the whole reason I bought it was so as to not miss Babylon 5. Well, TiVo said Aha! B5 is science fiction, so I'll suggest more SciFi! That's certainly quite correct, but the SciFi category also included things like Third Rock from the Sun (which I despise) and Tales from the Crypt (which doesn't interest me at all). In the former case, Third Rock, the problem is that the category is not fine enough. In the latter, it's that non-SciFi has been mis-categorized (in my opinion, and from my point of view). There's also the relatively trivial issue of spelling and formatting and synonyms. Google is good at this (I'll ignore for the course of the discussion below that Google is a full-text search, not a category search, only because it's a familiar tool I can use to illustrate the problems), but it only works well when you mis-type a word in your search string, relative to the body of web pages out there.
[Finale] Re: new and improved text tool
daniel, dennis, certainly you are free to submit a request of your own. i don't expect everyone to agree entirely with me, but if we waited for us all to agree, nothing would ever get submitted to the developers, let alone fixed. i'm also not of the opinion that any recent upgrade has been sufficient, though i willingly admit that some were important. despite two updates, one of which was supposed to have fixed wonky behaviour in the tuplet tool, the otherwise impressive improvements to that tool will probably still be functioning in a half-ass, faulty manner when 2006 comes out... and the programme will probably still be sluggish... and there will probably still not be EPS in PC... and... and... and... and most of us will fork out the dough anyways... and we will probably have a slew of new background themes to choose from (oh YAY!)... heaving sigh dennis, it seems to me that people mention broken EPS quite often... regards, jef From: Daniel Wolf It's a nice list, but I think that getting compact and reliable PS, EPS, and PDF output would be sufficient for one year's upgrade. From: d. collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can only agree. I'm not in favor of requesting any new bells and whistles as long as such important features are broken (EPS export AND import, which no one mentions). -- shirling neueweise \/ new music notation specialists mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: new and improved text tool
From: Christopher Smith GENERAL * Once assigned, default positioning of the individual Text can be altered or overridden Did you have an idea about how the interface would work in this case? perhaps control-click the Text and select the type of attachment in the contextual menu? if changed from its initial assignment, finale waits for you (flashing construction orange mouse cursor?) to click on the item to which you want the Text to be attached to (note, measure or page). or drag-drop like dennis BK mentioned... the note is highlighted, the measure outlined, a ghost image of a page icon appears around the dragged item... Otherwise it looks very clean and presentable (with capitals and everything! We're so proud!) yeah whatever... 8^) -- shirling neueweise \/ new music notation specialists mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: new and improved text tool
From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz Characters are characters, individually or combined. Folding together the text, expression, articulation, chord, lyric, clef, and time signature tools into a multifunction toolbar with a consistent interface seems ideal to me. yes but text is not articulation, just as a chord is not a clef. i see your point, but the only reason they can be considered to be of the same category, character, is because we define them both via fonts. they are grouped in tools according to *function*, and although a time signature uses numbers and tuplets use numbers, i don't see them at all as being related (at least not notationally [for most composers]... compositionally, however, we could discuss this point for decades and might actually agree in the end...8^). Like other applications do, a droplist on a toolbar would identify the current method of assignment (say, as an expression), its active (and available) parameters, and its positioning (with, say, a relative/absolute checkbox). I would love to see, on clicking an object, to what other object it was assigned (even though I prefer rubber bands, another discussion), its playback functions, etc. -- just as I would do when clicking on a vector object in a graphics program. A drag-drop icon could allow the present selected item to be dragged and attached to whatever it was dropped on. there are a couple of issues here. having more floating palettes on the screen is more of a problem (it seems to me) in notational graphics than it is with other graphics programmes. however, every year, the average size of users' monitors is increasing in size and quality; if the palette was designed efficiently - for side or bottom positioning on the monitor screen - this might be an interesting idea to pursue. i support the idea, but plan to concentrate my request to CODA on the functionality of the Text Tool. A duplicate button similar to the present one could live right there on the toobar. Then by changing the droplist for the duplicate I could, say, change a copied chord symbol into an expression, take some of lyrics and re-assign them as a title, make 4.6/3.3 or M/IV or HX or 4/4(=12/12) or Yay! into time signatures, give a clef change a bundle of Midi parameters, and so forth. there was reason for this sort of cross-tool use (assigning dynamics as articulations etc.) but with the improvements to the text tool (typographical control) this might be needed on extremely rare occasions. if the interface is improved, it might not be such a large series of tasks to do such things. perhaps simply by adding create new Text in a contextual menu might suffice. then immediately pasting the contents of the clipboard (copied from a title, or from the lyrics) fills in the text box. you still have to define the positioning... but then if there were user-defined default positioning of new Texts... i'll add that. A list could be opened from the toolbar with the existing expressions to drag-drop into place, or it could pop up by clicking a spot on the score as it does now. The opening contents of longer texts would be shown... an interesting idea, i began to think that to have more efficient use of large lists, perhaps some Texts could be defined to appear at the top of the list, as user-defined favourites (how would they be ordered though?), but then realised that this is exactly what the metatools are for, and they are much quicker than any pop-up list. on that note, i will add the ability to define metatools in the Text Designer. -- shirling neueweise \/ new music notation specialists mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
At 12:10 AM 2/24/05 +0100, Johannes Gebauer wrote: I am not against this, but I fail to see how I would benefit? There is no reason why I would want my title text blocks appear in the expression list, it would only convolut it more. OK, I know that you have ideas on how to get more organization into these lists. I have been thinking about this several times now, and I still don't see why I would want text blocks and expressions be merged into one tool. In what way would I then get faster results? In what way does this increase our flexibility? Have a look at this: http://maltedmedia.com/photos/toolbar.gif I just put this image together -- think of it as a docked toolbar (I use PC, so imagine whatever Mac has, or other color schemes, etc.) Please don't consider it any sort of optimal interface. It's just a visual idea of how to have the info in front of your eyes. Wouldn't you like to have the parameters of whatever kind of text you're using displayed for you, duplicatable, quickly adjustable (stretchable, size adjustable), etc.? Think of all the kinds of textual items being dropped into any category, or all shown? I drool for something like this. :) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
Responding my to my comment, in part: One can certainly have different tools that operate on the same object, and different objects acted on by the same tool. But just because the objects are acted on by the same tool, even if they happened to look the same, doesn't autmatically and necessarily demand that they be part of the same list. Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: I don't think I'm being clear. These all all interchangeable texts, with aspects of function assigned. They are only different in Finale because the program started out making them different. They were once all engraved with the same tools, and software separated them out. I don't think they are interchangeable texts at all, because they have different funnctions in the music. For one thing, text expressions have a specific impact upon way the music itself is to be realized, for example, how loud, or how fast. or by whom. A running header, or a dedication in a text block have nothing to do with the way the music sounds, and I would submit that the line, Dedicated to my colleague, Dennis is _not_ at all interchangeable with Allegro ma non troppo. despite the fact that they are composed of different subsets of the same set of symbols. This is not, I submit, a case where previously interchangeable texts were separated by the software, any more than a the title page of the score of Stravinsky's The Firebird is interchangeable with a shopping list. I agree that the editing of these can use common dialog boxes, just as if one can find it, one can use Stravinsky's pencil to write a shopping list. That does not make the various types of text item interchangeable, or even functionally equivalent. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] new and improved text tool
At 11:54 PM 2/23/05 -0600, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
I don't think they are interchangeable texts at all, because they have
different funnctions in the music. For one thing, text expressions have
a specific impact upon way the music itself is to be realized, for
example, how loud, or how fast. or by whom. A running header, or a
dedication in a text block have nothing to do with the way the music
sounds, and I would submit that the line,
Dedicated to my colleague, Dennis
is _not_ at all interchangeable with
Allegro ma non troppo.
despite the fact that they are composed of different subsets of the same
set of symbols.
This is not, I submit, a case where previously interchangeable texts
were separated by the software, any more than a the title page of the
score of Stravinsky's The Firebird is interchangeable with a shopping
list.
How does one cook serve a firebird? Yum...
I guess I'm getting at the fact that the software authors had to make
decisions on how to move from pencil paper to keyboard and screen. No
such decisions were needed with that pencil, nor with engraving tools. The
musical meaning is embedded 'behind' the symbol, not as part of it -- not
until it becomes contextual. Allegro ma non troppo has no use without its
context, and so why not let us set the context? The default context would
be the typical use, so in effect, nothing would seem to change.
The hierarchical way in which the software is set up (texts, lyrics,
musical symbols, expressions, articulations, other texts...) just gets
messy, as we experience every day. There are all sorts of lists and
arrangements of items that attempt to address musical functions. So we
start dividing what is attached to notes or measures or staves or systems
or pages or documents, with no intuitive way of understanding how to change
those actions. We just talked about how to move page-attached texts
elsehwhere. The struggle with the time signature swamp is always with us.
Trying to use articulations from other font sets, or combined
articulations, is a huge pain. Multi-line expressions are a problem to
create (unless that's been changed past 2K3). There's no easy way to make
any given object a stretchiness or smartness. Duplicating an articulation
as an expression or text item is impossible, so it has to be created again.
The possibility of floating anything anywhere (so often needed) is always a
problem ('oh, we've got to make that a real rest'). All that icky ossia
business.
We could follow the logic either way -- that we further subdivide how these
symbols work. A tempo indication is very different from a psychological
expression or a section marking ... but they're all expressions attached to
measures. At some point a decision is made to group one batch of things,
but not others. And, it seems to me, there's no longer a really good reason
for that kind of grouping if a simple way of entry and presentation is
offered ... one that is always visible, and is faster and clearer than the
mess of context menus, dialog boxes, and lists of expressions and
articulations and lyrics and texts that we have now.
To me, it makes more sense to render almost character-based as text, and
then assign its musical parameters as needed -- rather than having the
parameters inherent in the programmer's idea of how a group of characters
are supposed to work.
I think jef has made a well-wrought case. My only reason to jump in was to
suggest re-thinking the *entirety* of these entries and perhaps get a
unified and transparent palette out of it as a nice consequence.
Dennis
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Re: [Finale] Re: new and improved text tool
Responding to part of what I wrote Personally, I just don't see enough benefit to such a merger to justify this proposed combination. Jef rejoined there is overlapping (and inconsistent) functionality, and important weaknesses in both tools. combining the tool would certainly not hinder your work. I don't have much problem with combining tools; to some extent, this is already the circumstance in the Text tool and Lyric tool, as the Edit Lyrics and Edit text block use the same editor. True, the text expression editor uses a different lyric tool, but my sense is that the different functionality inherent in the expression and articulation tools, which have possible playback considerations which the lyrics tool and and the text tool do not need, together with the typically smaller size of expressions, when compared to lyrics and text blocks, makes programming these with a separate tool more expedient. It seems to me, though, that you seem to be proposing the merging of the underlying data structures, too. In the Finale file, expressions, and text blocks are in separate parts of the file. If, indeed, you mean to suggest combining the underlying data structures, this is where I do not see the benefit. As far as my comment, 3) the inability to address the text attributes sequentially, by stepping through the list; and and your request that I elaborate: Select the Text tool menu, and the edit text option. In the version of the edit text dialog box that opens, in the lower right hand corner, just above the help button (WinFin 2k5b) is the legend ID 1, just to the right of which is an up and a down arrow. By using these arrows, one can edit the any text block one chooses, though regardless of whether one wishes to edit block 5, or block 99, one has to always start from text block 1. I would like it if this could be changed so that one could go directly to a specific block, as one can go to a specific measure number in scroll view, or a specific page in page view. The ability to select a specific text block to edit, without starting up and going down the list starting with block 1, is what I meant by item 4 in my list. As to the types of changes I might with to make to text blocks 250 through 259, an example would be if I had thought a word was spelled a specific way, and discovered as I was doing block 260, that it was done another way, and needed to go back and change the spelling of the word in those blocks. As far as changing fonts, imagine that for good reason, I want to change the fonts in just those ten blocks, for example, because I intended to enter them as bold, and entered them as italic by mistake, and that there exist other blocks that are in italic, that I want them to stay in italic. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
