Re: [Finale] String divisi
On Mar 5, 2005, at 5:53 PM, John Howell wrote: Unless my memory is completely faulty, the three instruments of the viola da braccia family in sizes equivalent to the violin, viola and cello are clearly illustrated in Agricola (1529), although I'm not sure whether they are illustrated in Virdung (1511). The question at issue here is exactly what *versions* (dimensions of body and neck, etc.) of these soprano, alto, bass violins were used at various times and places, and what people called them. It is very clear in the score to Monteverdi's L'Orfeo (1607) that the bottom line of the 5-part violin band was a cello-range instrument. One assumes that the bass size instrument in the 24 Violins of the King was a cello-sized instrument. Exactly--but it wasn't a cello. It wasn't called a cello, and it wasn't built like a cello. When real cellos came along later, they were given a different name, indicating that people of the time regarded the difference as significant. The disposition of the Vingt-quatre Violons du Roy (and of Lully's opera orchestra) was 6, 4, 4, 4, 6, the five different instruments being respectively violin; 3 different sizes of viola, all tuned the same but with different bodies (the middle of the three corresponding to the modern viola); and the basse de violon--wh. was *not* a cello, though it was tuned like one. Note that there is no 16' voice. To play this repertoire on modern instruments, you would use 6 violins, 12 violas, and 6 cellos. The Italian for basse de violon was violone. The German was Bassgeige. The English was just bass. About this same time (ca. 1700) the cb, wh. previously had served only to support the basses in church choirs, began to appear in the orchestra, and the name violone was transferred to it. NB: there was no 16' voice in the orchestras of Lully or Corelli. Again, I must cite Monteverdi's use of both contrabass violin and contrabass viol in 1607 as well as a 16' instrument (of whichever family but most likely the viols) in the music of Schuetz, and Corelli's preference for contrabass in some of his church sonatas. 1700 is MUCH too late as the terminus ante quem for the use of the contrabass in ensembles, I said orchestra and I meant orchestra. Neither Monteverdi nor his immediate successors such as Cavalli and Cesti had anything that could be called an orchestra in their opera pits--there were no massed strings. As for Corelli, the works list in Grove says nothing about a contrabass in any of his works, and I would be very suspicious of such an assignment unless he actually specified contrabasso. If it says violone, then he means the cello-sized instrument mentioned above. All this info comes from _The Birth of the Orchestra_, wh. I have mentioned frequently here and wh. I strongly recommend to anyone interested in the subject. I really do want to get and read this book, but if your quotations are accurate I would have to question the scholarship in advance. There is a very well-researched and well-written dissertation on the history of the cello which does not agree at all, accepts the cello as a 16th-century instrument (which it certainly was), and notes that it was during the 17th century that many cellists started to adopt the overhand violin bow position while viola da gambists retained the earlier underhand position. John It all comes down to how broadly one defines cello. If you take it to mean the bass of the violin family, no matter how configured, then yes, certainly, the cello goes straight back to the early 16th c. But if you make the kinds of fine distinctions that musicians of the 17th century clearly made themselves, then the story becomes somewhat different. FWIW, _The Birth of the Orchestra_ apparently bases its assertions in this area primarily on two articles by Stephen Bonta: From Violone to Violoncello: A Question of Strings, JAMIS 3 (1977), 64-99; and Terminology for the Bass Violin in Seventeenth-Century Italy, JAMIS 4 (1978), 5-42. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
On 4 Mar 2005 at 17:25, Godofredo Romero wrote: Taken from Cecil Forsyth' book on orchestration The name Violone, i.e big Viola, was given to the Double-Bass, and in accordance with the accurate if somewhat limited principles of the Italian laguage, the intermediate instrument was christened, Red-Indian-fashion, little big Viola, Violoncello. It's a four stringed instrument. Eh? A violone is a member of the *viol* family, not part of the violin family, and has a variable number of strings. Certainly the instrument NYU is acquiring will have gut strings, a flat back, C holes and frets, which means it has nothing to do with the modern double bass nor with the cello. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
On 4 Mar 2005 at 17:32, John Howell wrote: At 3:46 PM -0500 3/4/05, David W. Fenton wrote: Also, keep in mind that Bach's gamba sonatas assumed a 7-string gamba with a low A string (because two of the three sonatas require low B), Hmm. The only one I'm really familiar with is the G major, and that one certainly doesn't require the newfangled 7th string. . . . Well, the first one is a reworking of a flute sonata that is earlier than the other two sonatas. . . . Also please note that the gamba obbligato in the St. John Passion (No. 58 in the old numbering), which he wrote a year after leaving Coethen, was for a 6-string instrument, as are the Brandenburg parts in No. 6, while the gamba parts in the St. Matthew Passion do require the 7th string. By 1729 he was not only aware of the modification introduced by St. Colombe and Marais, but had someone with an instrument that would play the parts. That would make a great deal of sense that 2 of the 3 would have the low note, then, since they are later (if I'm remembering correctly -- gotta run to a rehearsal in 10 minutes, or I'd pull out the score and check). -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Godofredo Romero wrote: Taken from Cecil Forsyth' book on orchestration The name Violone, i.e big Viola, was given to the Double-Bass, and in accordance with the accurate if somewhat limited principles of the Italian laguage, the intermediate instrument was christened, Red-Indian-fashion, little big Viola, Violoncello. It's a four stringed instrument. Forsyth wrote in 1914, and his information is totally outdated. The name violone was applied to the original bass of the violin family (Fr.: basse de violons), wh. was tuned like the cello but had a longer neck and never played above first position. The cello was developed ca. 1660 as a soloist's version of the violone, and was called violoncello because of its shorter neck. Eventually, of course, the vc. took over from the older instrument completely. About this same time (ca. 1700) the cb, wh. previously had served only to support the basses in church choirs, began to appear in the orchestra, and the name violone was transferred to it. NB: there was no 16' voice in the orchestras of Lully or Corelli. One more point on the word violone. Back in the pre-cello period, the same word was used indifferently for low-pitched gambas as well, and instruments of either type could appear in the continuo section of 17th-c. orchestras. All this info comes from _The Birth of the Orchestra_, wh. I have mentioned frequently here and wh. I strongly recommend to anyone interested in the subject. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
There is interesting information on this subjet at http://www.earlybass.com/borgin.htm Godofredo Johannes Gebauer wrote: I am by no means an expert, but the term violone is used for various instruments, including the cello itself (see for instance Corelli's violin sonatas original title), but was also in wide use for a double bass instrument. A violone could be an 8' or 16' instrument, or a mixture of both (the G-violone). Johannes David W. Fenton wrote: On 4 Mar 2005 at 17:25, Godofredo Romero wrote: Taken from Cecil Forsyth' book on orchestration The name Violone, i.e big Viola, was given to the Double-Bass, and in accordance with the accurate if somewhat limited principles of the Italian laguage, the intermediate instrument was christened, Red-Indian-fashion, little big Viola, Violoncello. It's a four stringed instrument. Eh? A violone is a member of the *viol* family, not part of the violin family, and has a variable number of strings. Certainly the instrument NYU is acquiring will have gut strings, a flat back, C holes and frets, which means it has nothing to do with the modern double bass nor with the cello. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
At 11:50 AM -0500 3/5/05, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Godofredo Romero wrote: Taken from Cecil Forsyth' book on orchestration The name Violone, i.e big Viola, was given to the Double-Bass, and in accordance with the accurate if somewhat limited principles of the Italian laguage, the intermediate instrument was christened, Red-Indian-fashion, little big Viola, Violoncello. It's a four stringed instrument. Forsyth wrote in 1914, and his information is totally outdated. The name violone was applied to the original bass of the violin family (Fr.: basse de violons), wh. was tuned like the cello but had a longer neck and never played above first position. The cello was developed ca. 1660 as a soloist's version of the violone, and was called violoncello because of its shorter neck. Eventually, of course, the vc. took over from the older instrument completely. Unless my memory is completely faulty, the three instruments of the viola da braccia family in sizes equivalent to the violin, viola and cello are clearly illustrated in Agricola (1529), although I'm not sure whether they are illustrated in Virdung (1511). It is very clear in the score to Monteverdi's L'Orfeo (1607) that the bottom line of the 5-part violin band was a cello-range instrument. One assumes that the bass size instrument in the 24 Violins of the King was a cello-sized instrument. Yes, Praetorius shows a bass cello (for want of an accepted term) and it was clearly one version of the bass viola da braccio in the 1610s, but while something may have happened around 1660 it clearly was not the invention of the cello as a new instrument. About this same time (ca. 1700) the cb, wh. previously had served only to support the basses in church choirs, began to appear in the orchestra, and the name violone was transferred to it. NB: there was no 16' voice in the orchestras of Lully or Corelli. Again, I must cite Monteverdi's use of both contrabass violin and contrabass viol in 1607 as well as a 16' instrument (of whichever family but most likely the viols) in the music of Schuetz, and Corelli's preference for contrabass in some of his church sonatas. 1700 is MUCH too late as the terminus ante quem for the use of the contrabass in ensembles, unless you are arguing that the orchestra itself didn't develop until c. 1700. One more point on the word violone. Back in the pre-cello period, the same word was used indifferently for low-pitched gambas as well, and instruments of either type could appear in the continuo section of 17th-c. orchestras. On that we can certainly agree. All this info comes from _The Birth of the Orchestra_, wh. I have mentioned frequently here and wh. I strongly recommend to anyone interested in the subject. I really do want to get and read this book, but if your quotations are accurate I would have to question the scholarship in advance. There is a very well-researched and well-written dissertation on the history of the cello which does not agree at all, accepts the cello as a 16th-century instrument (which it certainly was), and notes that it was during the 17th century that many cellists started to adopt the overhand violin bow position while viola da gambists retained the earlier underhand position. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andrew Stiller writes: On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Ken Moore wrote: ... some bass[es are] five-string (bottom string usually tuned to C in the US, B in Europe) B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? Also Sprach Zarathustra, in the fugue. I remember it particularly because only one part goes that low, and the conductor asked me to play it on my four-string with C extension. That meant I had to tune down, which is straightforward, and because I didn't want to play the rest of this fairly difficult work in an unfamiliar tuning, up again. I found this very difficult, mainly because the long string goes round the scroll and suffers from friction. Also, having the extension, I never practise with the bottom string tuned down. IIRC, there is also a low B in Brandenburg 3, but that may have been intended for a six-string violone. -- Ken Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.mooremusic.org.uk/ I reject emails 100k automatically: warn me beforehand if you want to send one ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re: [Finale] String divisi
-- Ken Moore[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? Also Sprach Zarathustra, in the fugue. You're talking about a scordatura. I'm based in Europe and it's nothing usual for double bass to tune the 5th string to B. Always C. Sometimes composers want a note lower than the range of a string instrument and then it's properly indicated that one of the strings has to be tuned down to X (in this case the db to B). Roger ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Ken Moore wrote: ... some bass[es are] five-string (bottom string usually tuned to C in the US, B in Europe) B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? The Berliner Philharmoniker owns a set of eight basses with extra low B (H) strings. A contrabassist in Frankfurt told me that the orchestra has a tradition of doubling at a lower octave in certain standard repertoire pieces as a kind of signature house sound, but I can't verify this nor can I say what repertoire came into question. Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
At 1:44 AM + 3/4/05, Ken Moore wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andrew Stiller writes: On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Ken Moore wrote: ... some bass[es are] five-string (bottom string usually tuned to C in the US, B in Europe) B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? Also Sprach Zarathustra, in the fugue. I remember it particularly because only one part goes that low, and the conductor asked me to play it on my four-string with C extension. Well, clearly if Strauss and other Viennese composers wrote low Bs, they had players with low Bs. Q.E.D. This is similar to the flute parts with low Bbs (and I believe piccolo parts as well) found in the same place and in the same time period. Composers, generally speaking, know better than to write notes that can't be played! IIRC, there is also a low B in Brandenburg 3, but that may have been intended for a six-string violone. I with I had a score at hand to check this, but it seems kinda questionable. Could somebody check and report back to us? While bass tuning was and is the least standardized in the string family, I believe the violone was tuned an octave below the bass viola da gamba, which would take it down to a low D, a whole step below the low E of the normal bass violin, but nowhere near a low B. The lowest note I've seen throughout Bach's work is low C, the lowest note of the cello in standard tuning and the lowest note available on the organ keyboard. (This is entirely separate from the question of the original, intended pitch for the Weimar cantatas, which is a very special case.) John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
Brandenburg III goes down to C but no lower. That is according to my copy of the Bach-Gesellschaft. Guy Hayden - Original Message - From: John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] String divisi IIRC, there is also a low B in Brandenburg 3, but that may have been intended for a six-string violone. I with I had a score at hand to check this, but it seems kinda questionable. Could somebody check and report back to us? -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
In my score of the Brandenburg concertos (Bärenreiter/Deutscher Verlag für Musik in 1971) I can't find anything lower than a low C for the violone in Number 3, but at the end of Concerto 6 the violone goes down to a low B-flat. But just the fact that Bach wrote the note doesn't necessarily mean that the violone had this range. John Howell wrote Composers, generally speaking, know better than to write notes that can't be played! but many composers, even those who know an awful lot about instrumentation, are prone to exceed the normal range of an instrument if it suits them. Richard Strauss is a case in point: there's a passage in 'Salome' where the second violins have a low E (a third below the lowest string). It's a fast, unaccented note, but just happens to be part of the melody. It would be a hell of a hassle to tune the G-string down a third just for this one note. There are many such instances in Strauss's works: he apparently explained to the players that if they imagined the note hard enough and looked as if they were playing it, nobody would hear the difference. Michael Cook IIRC, there is also a low B in Brandenburg 3, but that may have been intended for a six-string violone. I with I had a score at hand to check this, but it seems kinda questionable. Could somebody check and report back to us? While bass tuning was and is the least standardized in the string family, I believe the violone was tuned an octave below the bass viola da gamba, which would take it down to a low D, a whole step below the low E of the normal bass violin, but nowhere near a low B. The lowest note I've seen throughout Bach's work is low C, the lowest note of the cello in standard tuning and the lowest note available on the organ keyboard. (This is entirely separate from the question of the original, intended pitch for the Weimar cantatas, which is a very special case.) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
On 4 Mar 2005 at 9:07, John Howell wrote: [] IIRC, there is also a low B in Brandenburg 3, but that may have been intended for a six-string violone. I with I had a score at hand to check this, but it seems kinda questionable. Could somebody check and report back to us? While bass tuning was and is the least standardized in the string family, I believe the violone was tuned an octave below the bass viola da gamba, which would take it down to a low D, a whole step below the low E of the normal bass violin, but nowhere near a low B. The lowest note I've seen throughout Bach's work is low C, the lowest note of the cello in standard tuning and the lowest note available on the organ keyboard. (This is entirely separate from the question of the original, intended pitch for the Weimar cantatas, which is a very special case.) NYU is about to take delivery of a new violone. I really know not much of anything about it, but I do know that it has a low A string (I don't know if it is 6 strings, A to A or what, or if it's a 7- string instrument). Also, keep in mind that Bach's gamba sonatas assumed a 7-string gamba with a low A string (because two of the three sonatas require low B), so if the violones were an octave below this 7-string instrument, then they'd also have a low A string (regardless of what strings they had above it). -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
Taken from Cecil Forsyth' book on orchestration "The name Violone, i.e "big Viola, was given to the Double-Bass, and in accordance with the accurate if somewhat limited principles of the Italian laguage, the intermediate instrument was christened, Red-Indian-fashion, "little big Viola, " Violoncello". It's a four stringed instrument. Godofredo David W. Fenton wrote: On 4 Mar 2005 at 9:07, John Howell wrote: [] IIRC, there is also a low B in Brandenburg 3, but that may have been intended for a six-string violone. I with I had a score at hand to check this, but it seems kinda questionable. Could somebody check and report back to us? While bass tuning was and is the least standardized in the string family, I believe the violone was tuned an octave below the bass viola da gamba, which would take it down to a low D, a whole step below the low E of the "normal" bass violin, but nowhere near a low B. The lowest note I've seen throughout Bach's work is low C, the lowest note of the cello in standard tuning and the lowest note available on the organ keyboard. (This is entirely separate from the question of the original, intended pitch for the Weimar cantatas, which is a very special case.) NYU is about to take delivery of a new violone. I really know not much of anything about it, but I do know that it has a low A string (I don't know if it is 6 strings, A to A or what, or if it's a 7- string instrument). Also, keep in mind that Bach's gamba sonatas assumed a 7-string gamba with a low A string (because two of the three sonatas require low B), so if the violones were an octave below this 7-string instrument, then they'd also have a low A string (regardless of what strings they had above it). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
On Mar 4, 2005, at 7:06 AM, Michael Cook wrote: There are many such instances in Strauss's works: he apparently explained to the players that if they imagined the note hard enough and looked as if they were playing it, nobody would hear the difference. Wow! I'll have to try that technique with my chorus mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
On Mar 4, 2005, at 5:00 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: On Mar 4, 2005, at 7:06 AM, Michael Cook wrote: There are many such instances in Strauss's works: he apparently explained to the players that if they imagined the note hard enough and looked as if they were playing it, nobody would hear the difference. Wow! I'll have to try that technique with my chorus Doesn't work so well with bass trombone. I've tried it. Everyone noticed. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
At 3:46 PM -0500 3/4/05, David W. Fenton wrote: Also, keep in mind that Bach's gamba sonatas assumed a 7-string gamba with a low A string (because two of the three sonatas require low B), Hmm. The only one I'm really familiar with is the G major, and that one certainly doesn't require the newfangled 7th string. Also please note that the gamba obbligato in the St. John Passion (No. 58 in the old numbering), which he wrote a year after leaving Coethen, was for a 6-string instrument, as are the Brandenburg parts in No. 6, while the gamba parts in the St. Matthew Passion do require the 7th string. By 1729 he was not only aware of the modification introduced by St. Colombe and Marais, but had someone with an instrument that would play the parts. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
At 5:25 PM -0400 3/4/05, Godofredo Romero wrote: Taken from Cecil Forsyth' book on orchestration The name Violone, i.e big Viola, was given to the Double-Bass, and in accordance with the accurate if somewhat limited principles of the Italian laguage, the intermediate instrument was christened, Red-Indian-fashion, little big Viola, Violoncello. It's a four stringed instrument. Godofredo Hi, Godofredo. Kurt Sachs got into big trouble trying to reason from terminology, which is very often unstable, and Forsyth seems to have picked this up from him. We know that there were both contrabass violins (presumably with 4 strings) and contrabass violas da gamba (with 5 or 6 strings) available in the early 17th century, because Monteverdi called for both instruments in the score to L'Orfeo and was very picky about where each should play. And we know that large instruments often had a variety of tunings, and beyond that were often re-engineered when musical styles changed so as not to discard a large and expensive instrument. Berlioz' comments on the contrabass section are fascinating. (I wish I could quote directly, but do not have a copy of his treatise to hand.) He said, and I paraphrase, You will find a variety of instruments, with 3, 4, or 5 strings, and tuned in a variety of ways. With luck, someone will be playing an open string on every note to stabilize the pitch.!!! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] String divisi
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] John Howell writes: Outside always takes the top in a 2-part divisi, inside the bottom. It's all automatic. One minor adjustment for bass sections (I only know about amateur orchestras, but I should be surprised if professionals in the same situation differed): some bass sections have a mix of standard four- string instruments, four-string with extension to C, and five-string (bottom string usually tuned to C in the US, B in Europe) and in a 2-part divisi in which the lower part goes below E (usually octaves), each player takes a part that his instrument can play, irrespective of seating. -- Ken Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.mooremusic.org.uk/ I reject emails 100k automatically: warn me beforehand if you want to send one ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Ken Moore wrote: ... some bass[es are] five-string (bottom string usually tuned to C in the US, B in Europe) B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Ken Moore wrote: ... some bass[es are] five-string (bottom string usually tuned to C in the US, B in Europe) B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? No, but I've heard them! Actually, the C tuning is the new one to me! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
Arcane bass lore: There are two (main) methods for getting pitches lower than the E string on the string bass. One is to have one or another kind of fingerboard extension added over the peg box. These are usually physically limited in length so that a C is the lowest practical note. When 5 strings are used on a specially built instrument, it is more intuitive and practical to maintain the fingering relationships by tuning the low string to B, a 4th below the E. Most bassists I know find the whole thing kind of messy for a number of reasons, and the relative power of those pitches is diminished by the fact that the bass is quite a bit too small to support the sound of the fundamentals it is required to sound already in its normal state (in relation to the proportions of a violin), so it's good to have a number of players doubling those pitches if they are expected to be heard effectively in an orchestra. Some brave souls have resorted to tuning the bass in 5ths, like an octa-cello. This has some advantages, but the amount of real estate that must be covered by the left hand in order to negotiate scale passages is daunting. Chuck On Mar 3, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Owain Sutton wrote: Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Ken Moore wrote: ... some bass[es are] five-string (bottom string usually tuned to C in the US, B in Europe) B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? No, but I've heard them! Actually, the C tuning is the new one to me! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:57 AM, Ken Moore wrote: ... some bass[es are] five-string (bottom string usually tuned to C in the US, B in Europe) B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? -- Certainly! Respighi _Pines of Rome_ last movement. Many, many of them. Raymond Horton Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
At 14:20 -0500 3/03/2005, Andrew Stiller wrote: B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? Wozzeck by Alban Berg, Universal Edition full score from page 398 onwards. A few bars before, Berg writes Kb. stimmen die C Saite nach H (Basses tune the C string to B). Michael Cook ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] String divisi
On Behalf Of Andrew Stiller Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:21 AM To: finale@shsu.edu; Ken Moore Subject: Re: [Finale] String divisi B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? It also occurs in some of the movie cues we copy. Two recent ones were, IIRC, Blade 3 (Ramin Djawadi) the Star Wars video game (Jeff Marsh). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] String divisi
On 03 Mar 2005, at 4:54 PM, Dan Rupert wrote: B? That's a new one on me! Can anyone cite a composition (orch., chamber, or solo) that actually requires that note from the cb? It also occurs in some of the movie cues we copy. Two recent ones were, IIRC, Blade 3 (Ramin Djawadi) the Star Wars video game (Jeff Marsh). This isn't really relevant to the issue at hand, but Dan's reference to the Star Wars video game made me chuckle -- do you know how many video games there have been based on the Star Wars franchise? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
