Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
On Wed Jan 26, at WednesdayJan 26 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. E+7(#11) is actually an accurate symbol for Matthew's chord, though like you Darcy, I don't like the + in chord symbols, since it is prone to misinterpretation. I second Darcy's suggestion of the Jazz Theory Book. You'll discover that like humans and chimpanzees sharing 97% of their DNA, classical and jazz harmony also have most of their vocabulary in common. We just speak a slightly different dialect. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
I just have a few clarifications. Matthew seems to have some older concepts of jazz chords, which, while not actually WRONG, are potentially confusing. On Thu Jan 27, at ThursdayJan 27 1:35 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matthew, Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? Yes, C (add2) = C D E G. C(9) looks too much like C9, which would of course be C E (G) Bb D. Generally, a higher number like 9 implies the presence of all the lower, odd-numbered chord members as well. So if you DON'T want a 7th, use 2. And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? These days, altered 5ths are treated as any other alteration, hence C7(#5), CMA7(#5), etc. Back in the day, you used to see a lot of chord symbols like C+7 but nowadays that's considered awkward (and potentially confusing). Similarly, #11ths used to generally be notated as b5ths, until people noticed that the bass players were still happily playing natural fifths in their bass lines against those chords. On most dominant 7th chords the former #5 alteration is more correctly spelled and named as a b13 these days, reflecting its role as the 6th scale degree in most dominants. In other words, calling it a b13 implies that there is some other note functioning as the 5th, which is important information for bass players and improvisers. On chords with a MAJOR 7th, the #5 is most often correct, but less common. With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? No. The natural 11th is only available as an extension on minor chords (mi7, mi(MA7), mi7(b5), and the third is not omitted. What I think you are talking about is something different, a suspended dominant chord, where the 4th *replaces* the third. For instance: Root - P4 - (P5) - mi7 = 7sus -- C F G Bb = C7sus If you also want the ninth, that's C9sus and if you want the 9th and 13th, it's C13sus. (You will sometimes see C9sus chords written as C11 but that's poor practice, IMO.) Darcy has this one exactly right. On some jazz lead sheets from the 60s and 70s, it is common to see chords like C11, and then yes indeed the 11 replaces the 3. But somebody who doesn't know the convention might try to put the 3 and the 11 (sus4) in the same chord, which would not be what is required. In some modern jazz, the two notes occur together, but then it is exceptional and you should call it something like C7sus4add3 to make sure that it is clear. Darcy differs slightly from me in what to call a sus chord. Among the New York crowd, apparently C7sus is enough. I maintain that since there are many possible suspended notes and to be as clear as possible, C7sus4 is the best symbol. (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Yes -- although in that case the symbol would be 7sus (add3) -- C7sus (add3) = C F (G) Bb E. Suspended triads are just sus -- Csus = C F G. You'll sometimes see C D G written as Csus2 but I prefer C5 (add2). (C5 is more of a rock symbol, indicating a open fifth, or power chord -- C5 = just C G.) Yeah, the Csus2 is unclear in that the 2 could be suspended to the root (replacing the C in the right hand, like an unresolved 9-8 suspension) or it could be suspended to the 3rd. I avoid this symbol myself. The molar-grindingly correct symbol for this is Cadd2 omit3, with the add2 and omit3 stacked. I hate it, though, and if I am going to be using a lot of them, I put a note at the top of the chart C2 = Cadd2 omit3 throughout so I define my non-standard chord symbol for the uninitiated. Some people use the C2 symbol for a Cadd2, so I make sure I define it if I am going to use it. Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. According to Finale, there IS a Bb in the chord, same MIDI number as A#. BbM9 is just flat-out wrong though. M or maj means the 7th, NOT the 3rd, and there is a flat 7th here. This is why I don't use it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
On Thu Jan 27, at ThursdayJan 27 1:41 AM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. There was a now-dead convention in the 70s for naming a stack of 4ths, like G C F from the bottom up, as G4, so I wouldn't care to use that in a chart I was sending off. Likewise, C2 has at least two different definitions these days, so I would make sure I defined it if I was going to be using it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
These look like what you're after: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/ChordNameFinder.htm http://tools.markabout.com/cspell3.htm I don't know how good they are: maybe some of the the list members will play around with them and give their opinions. Michael On 27 Jan 2011, at 01:55, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
What are those two different definitions? C2 seems quite clear to me, as a commercial arranger. I have never had a problem with this nomenclature in Australia. Commercial charts here are written to be played, on sight, without rehearsal, and such chord terminology has yet, in my twenty five years of arranging, to cause a misunderstanding. Nigel Hanley On 28/01/2011, at 12:21 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Thu Jan 27, at ThursdayJan 27 1:41 AM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. There was a now-dead convention in the 70s for naming a stack of 4ths, like G C F from the bottom up, as G4, so I wouldn't care to use that in a chart I was sending off. Likewise, C2 has at least two different definitions these days, so I would make sure I defined it if I was going to be using it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Also, Christopher, I was referring specifically to the sus4 chord, and abbreviating it to the 4 chord, not to an uncommon, rarely used 70s convention, which obviously doesn't apply to this debate. On 28/01/2011, at 12:21 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Thu Jan 27, at ThursdayJan 27 1:41 AM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. There was a now-dead convention in the 70s for naming a stack of 4ths, like G C F from the bottom up, as G4, so I wouldn't care to use that in a chart I was sending off. Likewise, C2 has at least two different definitions these days, so I would make sure I defined it if I was going to be using it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Nigel, I had described this in another reply on this topic. It is possible to interpret C2 as either C D G (Cadd2omit3) or as C D E G (Cadd2). I completely believe you that you have never had trouble with it, as there are regional conventions that everyone in a given region seems to understand (see my comments about the NYC crowd.) Yet, around here C2 seems to be played in the first definition I gave. As a result, I try to be impossible to misinterpret in my symbols, as I never know where they are going to be played. - Original Message - From: Nigel Hanley i...@nigelhanley.com Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:28 am Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names To: finale@shsu.edu What are those two different definitions? C2 seems quite clear to me, as a commercial arranger. I have never had a problem with this nomenclature in Australia. Commercial charts here are written to be played, on sight, without rehearsal, and such chord terminology has yet, in my twenty five years of arranging, to cause a misunderstanding. Nigel Hanley On 28/01/2011, at 12:21 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Thu Jan 27, at ThursdayJan 27 1:41 AM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. There was a now-dead convention in the 70s for naming a stack of 4ths, like G C F from the bottom up, as G4, so I wouldn't care to use that in a chart I was sending off. Likewise, C2 has at least two different definitions these days, so I would make sure I defined it if I was going to be using it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Well, around here there is a very popular fake book, written by a Montrealer, that uses that convention and causes some discussion every time one of those tunes is read, so I wouldn't want anyone to reference it when reading my charts. The 70's were not THAT long ago! Despite its length, I still would use Gsus4 for the three-note chord and G7sus4 for the four-note version, just to prevent misunderstandings. I have a suffix sus4 and another 7sus4 in a more condensed font for tight situations where there might be collisions. Christopher - Original Message - From: Nigel Hanley i...@nigelhanley.com Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:33 am Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names To: finale@shsu.edu Also, Christopher, I was referring specifically to the sus4 chord, and abbreviating it to the 4 chord, not to an uncommon, rarely used 70s convention, which obviously doesn't apply to this debate. On 28/01/2011, at 12:21 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Thu Jan 27, at ThursdayJan 27 1:41 AM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. There was a now-dead convention in the 70s for naming a stack of 4ths, like G C F from the bottom up, as G4, so I wouldn't care to use that in a chart I was sending off. Likewise, C2 has at least two different definitions these days, so I would make sure I defined it if I was going to be using it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Christopher, I agree with you on both points. Yes, C2 could be inferring no 3rd. Were it important, I would write that. So with the issue of using C2, rather than the more unwieldy forms, yes, there could be some doubt. But really, in a pop chart, a contemporary rhythmic song, the third is obviously inferred anyway, does it really matter? C2 gets the information across that the piano and guitar should be suggesting, or including the 2nd. Any player capable of playing such music realises that and will include the 2nd. In the event of a C2(omit 3rd) chord, what arranger wouldn't notate it if it were that important? It is no longer a triad, in the traditional sense of the word. Steely Dan, Becker and Fagen, used this chord extensively, and called it a mu chord, which completely negates the whole purpose of a chord symbol. So, nitpicking, yes, you should write, omit 3rd, or add 2, but for all practical purposes I believe that that is unnecessary On the G4 question, I realise that wanting it and using it are two different things. I, too, have smaller fonts for this suffix, sus4, and would never use 4 as a stand-alone suffix. Thank you for the dialogue. It is an interesting topic. - Nigel Hanley On 28/01/2011, at 3:38 AM, christopher.sm...@videotron.ca christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: Well, around here there is a very popular fake book, written by a Montrealer, that uses that convention and causes some discussion every time one of those tunes is read, so I wouldn't want anyone to reference it when reading my charts. The 70's were not THAT long ago! Despite its length, I still would use Gsus4 for the three-note chord and G7sus4 for the four-note version, just to prevent misunderstandings. I have a suffix sus4 and another 7sus4 in a more condensed font for tight situations where there might be collisions. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
A small difference. I write C2(no 3) Reasonably simple. I see charts a lot that say C9 but it is clearly major not dominant - a bad error. Steve P. On 27 Jan 2011, at 17:27, Nigel Hanley i...@nigelhanley.com wrote: Christopher, I agree with you on both points. Yes, C2 could be inferring no 3rd. Were it important, I would write that. So with the issue of using C2, rather than the more unwieldy forms, yes, there could be some doubt. But really, in a pop chart, a contemporary rhythmic song, the third is obviously inferred anyway, does it really matter? C2 gets the information across that the piano and guitar should be suggesting, or including the 2nd. Any player capable of playing such music realises that and will include the 2nd. In the event of a C2(omit 3rd) chord, what arranger wouldn't notate it if it were that important? It is no longer a triad, in the traditional sense of the word. Steely Dan, Becker and Fagen, used this chord extensively, and called it a mu chord, which completely negates the whole purpose of a chord symbol. So, nitpicking, yes, you should write, omit 3rd, or add 2, but for all practical purposes I believe that that is unnecessary On the G4 question, I realise that wanting it and using it are two different things. I, too, have smaller fonts for this suffix, sus4, and would never use 4 as a stand-alone suffix. Thank you for the dialogue. It is an interesting topic. - Nigel Hanley On 28/01/2011, at 3:38 AM, christopher.sm...@videotron.ca christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: Well, around here there is a very popular fake book, written by a Montrealer, that uses that convention and causes some discussion every time one of those tunes is read, so I wouldn't want anyone to reference it when reading my charts. The 70's were not THAT long ago! Despite its length, I still would use Gsus4 for the three-note chord and G7sus4 for the four-note version, just to prevent misunderstandings. I have a suffix sus4 and another 7sus4 in a more condensed font for tight situations where there might be collisions. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
At 11:55 AM +1100 1/27/11, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Do you mean voicings rather than chord names? Chord symbols ARE chord names. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
On Wed Jan 26, at WednesdayJan 26 8:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd I think I know what he means. Like you enter C, Eb, G, A and it tells you Cm6, or Eb6(#11), or Am7(b5), or F9 (rootless), or D7sus4b9 (rootless), etc., and it makes allowances for enharmonics. I think Finale can actually do this, but I never agree with its assessments, so I have never used it. I can do it faster by eye or by ear in any case. Sorry, Matthew. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Yeah, just what I was going to say ;) Either Darcy types like the wind (I think he does) or he had this somewhere ready to paste into the email. THAT is a serious answer to a question. It takes a while, but it shouldn't be too hard for a musician who is familiar with functional harmony to learn the names of jazz chords. When I taught theory and harmony, I insisted that my students learn both the Roman numeral names and the jazz names for everything they encountered. One is good for telling where you are in the key - how far you are from a cadence, the other is quicker for getting the vertical note grouping and neither will tell you much about the voicing. Also, since this is a language - not a scientific experiment, there are variables and ambiguities that are hard for a machine to analyze. Christopher indicated as much in his response. Sometimes you have to look at surrounding chords in order to tell what to call a particular chord, and even then, good musicians may disagree. Chuck On Jan 26, 2011, at 8:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not essential. Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in addition to the 3rd and 7th: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7 On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh -- this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6 Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by replacing 7 with 9 or 13. The 13th implies the presence of a 9th. For instance: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9 Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and implies the presence of a 9th): Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F = Cmi11(MA7) Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses. Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them horizontally.) Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9) Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13 (#11 b9) There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols for most commonly-used jazz chords. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-3162 phone: (503) 926-7952 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Hi Matt, As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me to correct some typos: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]* Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not essential. Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in addition to the 3rd and 7th: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7 On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh -- this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6 Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by replacing 7 with 9 or 13. The 13th implies the presence of a 9th. For instance: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9 Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and implies the presence of a 9th): Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F = Cmi11(MA7) Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses. Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them horizontally.) Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9) Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13 (#11 b9) There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols for most commonly-used jazz chords. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Thanks Darcy and all, I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense. Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Thanks again, it's very useful, esp coming from a more figured-bass centric world. Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. Cheers Matthew On 27/01/11 4:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me to correct some typos: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]* Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not essential. Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in addition to the 3rd and 7th: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7 On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh -- this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6 Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by replacing 7 with 9 or 13. The 13th implies the presence of a 9th. For instance: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9 Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and implies the presence of a 9th): Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F = Cmi11(MA7) Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses. Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them horizontally.) Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9) Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13 (#11 b9) There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols for most commonly-used jazz chords. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Hi Matthew, Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? Yes, C (add2) = C D E G. C(9) looks too much like C9, which would of course be C E (G) Bb D. And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? These days, altered 5ths are treated as any other alteration, hence C7(#5), CMA7(#5), etc. Back in the day, you used to see a lot of chord symbols like C+7 but nowadays that's considered awkward (and potentially confusing). Similarly, #11ths used to generally be notated as b5ths, until people noticed that the bass players were still happily playing natural fifths in their bass lines against those chords. With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? No. The natural 11th is only available as an extension on minor chords (mi7, mi(MA7), mi7(b5), and the third is not omitted. What I think you are talking about is something different, a suspended dominant chord, where the 4th *replaces* the third. For instance: Root - P4 - (P5) - mi7 = 7sus -- C F G Bb = C7sus If you also want the ninth, that's C9sus and if you want the 9th and 13th, it's C13sus. (You will sometimes see C9sus chords written as C11 but that's poor practice, IMO.) (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Yes -- although in that case the symbol would be 7sus (add3) -- C7sus (add3) = C F (G) Bb E. Suspended triads are just sus -- Csus = C F G. You'll sometimes see C D G written as Csus2 but I prefer C5 (add2). (C5 is more of a rock symbol, indicating a open fifth, or power chord -- C5 = just C G.) Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. I've never tried Finale's tools but it doesn't surprise me that they give poor results. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 27 Jan 2011, at 1:14 AM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Thanks Darcy and all, I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense. Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Thanks again, it's very useful, esp coming from a more figured-bass centric world. Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. Cheers Matthew On 27/01/11 4:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me to correct some typos: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]* Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. minor-major chord? Cmi(ma7)Is that what you meant? - Nigel Hanley On 27/01/2011, at 5:14 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense. Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? Matthew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Yes, the minor-major 7th I should have said. Interesting with the alterations of the 5th and it being like any other alteration, plus the way that added notes are indicated, not to mention the use of G4 (as below), we're perhaps not that far away from figured bass after all any more, at least in some senses. I learn something new every day. :) Thanks again for this wealth of interesting knowledge, Matthew On 27/01/11 5:41 PM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. minor-major chord? Cmi(ma7)Is that what you meant? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
On 27/01/2011, at 5:35 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matthew, Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? Yes, C (add2) = C D E G. C(9) looks too much like C9, which would of course be C E (G) Bb D. And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? These days, altered 5ths are treated as any other alteration, hence C7(#5), CMA7(#5), etc. Back in the day, you used to see a lot of chord symbols like C+7 but nowadays that's considered awkward (and potentially confusing). Similarly, #11ths used to generally be notated as b5ths, until people noticed that the bass players were still happily playing natural fifths in their bass lines against those chords. With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? No. The natural 11th is only available as an extension on minor chords (mi7, mi(MA7), mi7(b5), and the third is not omitted. What I think you are talking about is something different, a suspended dominant chord, where the 4th *replaces* the third. For instance: Root - P4 - (P5) - mi7 = 7sus -- C F G Bb = C7sus If you also want the ninth, that's C9sus and if you want the 9th and 13th, it's C13sus. (You will sometimes see C9sus chords written as C11 but that's poor practice, IMO.) (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Yes -- although in that case the symbol would be 7sus (add3) -- C7sus (add3) = C F (G) Bb E. Suspended triads are just sus -- Csus = C F G. You'll sometimes see C D G written as Csus2 but I prefer C5 (add2). (C5 is more of a rock symbol, indicating a open fifth, or power chord -- C5 = just C G.) Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. I've never tried Finale's tools but it doesn't surprise me that they give poor results. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 27 Jan 2011, at 1:14 AM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Thanks Darcy and all, I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense. Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Thanks again, it's very useful, esp coming from a more figured-bass centric world. Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. Cheers Matthew On 27/01/11 4:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me to correct some typos: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]* Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
oops, sorry for that mis-send Matthew, Beware that G4 is not in common usage. I happen to like it as a similar construct to the C2 example. Darcy is quite correct in saying some chord symbols are not best practice. G4 would certainly fit into that category. I occasionally will use C11, but only when it is clear that the chord has a min7th, ninth and 11th, and no min or maj 3rd...the other way to write this would be Bb/C. Once again I agree with Darcy about it not being best practice. A simple rule of thumb, please tell me if I'm wrong. If a chord contains a minor 7th: added notes, such as the 2nd, 4th and 6th become the 9th, 11th and 13th. This tells me the chord is a dominant seventh chord, or an extension of a minor seventh chord. If a chord has 2, 4, 6 it tells me that the chord is a triad with one of those notes added. You can even add the 2nd and the 6th to get a C69 chord. It is still a major triad, but with added colours. The usage of 9 instead of 2 is more tradition than logic. Above all, chord symbols need to be readily understood. On 27/01/2011, at 6:05 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Yes, the minor-major 7th I should have said. Interesting with the alterations of the 5th and it being like any other alteration, plus the way that added notes are indicated, not to mention the use of G4 (as below), we're perhaps not that far away from figured bass after all any more, at least in some senses. I learn something new every day. :) Thanks again for this wealth of interesting knowledge, Matthew On 27/01/11 5:41 PM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. minor-major chord? Cmi(ma7)Is that what you meant? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
