Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Mark Adler]

Hi All,

I‘ve enjoyed reading the comments in this thread the past few days and
thought I’d jump in with a few comments of my own.

MakeMusic remains a company made up of musicians and run by musicians. I’ve
personally spent a lifetime working as a professional musician, engraver,
and music editor. You’ll find dedicated musicians throughout the company,
from our General Manager, Fred Flowerday, to our engineering, CS, sales,
and marketing teams.

We will indeed miss Michael Johnson, and we wish him the best in his future
endeavors. Michael remains a good friend and continues at be a member of
our company brass quintet, so his opinions and expertise will not be too
far away.  While Michael does have a great sense of corporate history and
knowledge, there are also many others here with 20+ years at MakeMusic.
Myself, I am a relative newcomer at MakeMusic with only 10 years.

I monitor this and other forums, so please keep the comments coming,
especially concerning what you like about Dorico, and Finale’s shortcomings
related to linked/voiced parts.

We watch our competitor’s progress closely, and your opinions as to what
features and innovations resonate are very helpful to us as we continue to
develop and improve Finale.



*Mark F. Adler*

Director of Production/Sr. Editor



*D* 303 • 579 • 4829

www.makemusic.com



[image: MakeMusic Logo] 
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Steve Parker]

There will only be one upgrade price. Anyone who upgrades will automatically 
get the full version. 
FWIW I’ve seen non-commercial clauses in edu software plenty of times. 

Steve P. 

> On 23 Apr 2018, at 00:21, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
>> On 4/22/2018 8:50 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote:
>> This confused me as well, but it appears that if you have a Dorico
>> educational license, you're not allowed to produce commercial work. See
>> question 9 at https://www.steinberg.net/en/education/faq.html
>> 
>> Aaron.
>> 
> 
> That is so bizarre -- Steinberg is the only company I know of with that 
> limitation.  How will they know you're producing commercial output?
> 
> And I've never heard of an upgrade changing a license from educational 
> to full -- I guess possibly the upgrade price for an educational license 
> might be more money than when upgrading a full-license original.
> 
> Thank you for pointing that out!  I stand corrected and I appreciate 
> knowing I was mistaken.
> 
> 
> -- 
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

On 4/22/2018 8:50 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote:
> This confused me as well, but it appears that if you have a Dorico
> educational license, you're not allowed to produce commercial work. See
> question 9 at https://www.steinberg.net/en/education/faq.html
> 
> Aaron.
> 

That is so bizarre -- Steinberg is the only company I know of with that 
limitation.  How will they know you're producing commercial output?

And I've never heard of an upgrade changing a license from educational 
to full -- I guess possibly the upgrade price for an educational license 
might be more money than when upgrading a full-license original.

Thank you for pointing that out!  I stand corrected and I appreciate 
knowing I was mistaken.


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Aaron Sherber]

This confused me as well, but it appears that if you have a Dorico
educational license, you're not allowed to produce commercial work. See
question 9 at https://www.steinberg.net/en/education/faq.html

Aaron.





On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 5:43 AM, David H. Bailey <
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:

> Why would your "educational" license force you to redo everything in
> Finale?  Are there restrictions on what sort of results you can get from
> Dorico under the "educational" license?
>
> David H. Bailey
>
>
> On 4/21/2018 5:25 PM, Steve Parker wrote:
> >
> >> On 21 Apr 2018, at 13:33, Robert Patterson  > wrote:
> >>
> >> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that
> it
> >> has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the Dorico
> >> users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
> >> product. (Which surprised me.)
> >
> > This may have been me?
> >
> > I don’t export to Finale. I do everything in Dorico, then start again in
> Finale.
> >
> > This is a method of learning Dorico. At this point (after maybe 3 months
> proper use), I’m way quicker in Dorico than after decades of Finale.
> > The only reason I’m still re-doing in Finale is that I bought an
> educational licence for Dorico (I’m a postgrad…).
> > When the next paid upgrade comes, I will move to a full licence.
> >
> > I don’t want to be on the Finale forum as a fan-boy for Dorico, but it
> is at a professional level. Some things need workarounds at the
> moment—temporarily I’m sure. But I use workarounds in Finale every day.
> Even mixed metres with aligned bars can be achieved. For contemporary
> music, using music frames which can have any music assigned to them, allows
> things to be achieved within Dorico that would require cutting up in a
> graphics program. Pedalling, cues, lyrics, instrument changes—all take
> significant fiddling in Finale, but none in Dorico.
> >
> > Steve P.
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
> > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
>
>
> --
> David H. Bailey
> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

Why would your "educational" license force you to redo everything in 
Finale?  Are there restrictions on what sort of results you can get from 
Dorico under the "educational" license?

David H. Bailey


On 4/21/2018 5:25 PM, Steve Parker wrote:
> 
>> On 21 Apr 2018, at 13:33, Robert Patterson > > wrote:
>>
>> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that it
>> has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the Dorico
>> users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
>> product. (Which surprised me.)
> 
> This may have been me?
> 
> I don’t export to Finale. I do everything in Dorico, then start again in 
> Finale.
> 
> This is a method of learning Dorico. At this point (after maybe 3 months 
> proper use), I’m way quicker in Dorico than after decades of Finale.
> The only reason I’m still re-doing in Finale is that I bought an educational 
> licence for Dorico (I’m a postgrad…).
> When the next paid upgrade comes, I will move to a full licence.
> 
> I don’t want to be on the Finale forum as a fan-boy for Dorico, but it is at 
> a professional level. Some things need workarounds at the moment—temporarily 
> I’m sure. But I use workarounds in Finale every day. Even mixed metres with 
> aligned bars can be achieved. For contemporary music, using music frames 
> which can have any music assigned to them, allows things to be achieved 
> within Dorico that would require cutting up in a graphics program. Pedalling, 
> cues, lyrics, instrument changes—all take significant fiddling in Finale, but 
> none in Dorico.
> 
> Steve P.
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> 


-- 
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Craig Parmerlee]

It seems that must of the function that Finale users have with Staff 
Styles is lacking in Dorico at the moment.  I don't think there is any 
support for slash notation or rhythmic notation, for example.  That 
rules it out for me for the time being.

I cannot find any reference to one-bar and two-bar repeats in Dorico.  
If it is there, I cannot find it.

I think this reflects a very strong bias toward classical engraving.  
But they certainly are working to incorporate the things that are needed 
for contemporary music.  The most recent release added chord support.  
The chord support is very nice. They are thinking through these things 
very well, but I would have to agree with you that the product is not up 
to professional use yet, at least for contemporary music.  I cannot 
conceive of very many projects I would do that does not require at least 
some slash bars, rhythmic notation, or bar repeats.

On 4/21/2018 8:33 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that it
> has the potential to be but isn't there yet.



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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Craig Parmerlee]

Steve, I am a little confused.  As I understand it, all the licenses 
have the same functionality.  If you qualified for the educational 
license, doesn't that give you full use of Dorico?  I don't understand 
why you would duplicate the work in Finale.

This is relevant to me because most of my use of notation programs is 
for an educational charity.  Steinberg recognized that organization to 
qualify for the educational pricing with Cubase and I assume I could do 
the same with Dorico.  I just want to make sure there aren't any 
restrictions I am not expecting.


On 4/21/2018 5:25 PM, Steve Parker wrote:
> The only reason I’m still re-doing in Finale is that I bought an 
> educational licence for Dorico (I’m a postgrad…).
> When the next paid upgrade comes, I will move to a full licence.
>


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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Steve Parker]

> On 21 Apr 2018, at 13:33, Robert Patterson  > wrote:
> 
> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that it
> has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the Dorico
> users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
> product. (Which surprised me.)

This may have been me?

I don’t export to Finale. I do everything in Dorico, then start again in Finale.

This is a method of learning Dorico. At this point (after maybe 3 months proper 
use), I’m way quicker in Dorico than after decades of Finale.
The only reason I’m still re-doing in Finale is that I bought an educational 
licence for Dorico (I’m a postgrad…).
When the next paid upgrade comes, I will move to a full licence.

I don’t want to be on the Finale forum as a fan-boy for Dorico, but it is at a 
professional level. Some things need workarounds at the moment—temporarily I’m 
sure. But I use workarounds in Finale every day. Even mixed metres with aligned 
bars can be achieved. For contemporary music, using music frames which can have 
any music assigned to them, allows things to be achieved within Dorico that 
would require cutting up in a graphics program. Pedalling, cues, lyrics, 
instrument changes—all take significant fiddling in Finale, but none in Dorico.

Steve P.
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Barbara Touburg]

I have just watched the youtube videos and it occured to me that they 
have borrowed a lot from InDesign, which I know farely well.
I might like it. Who knows?
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

On 4/21/2018 12:04 PM, wit...@nctv.com wrote:
> I'm so tired of this thread. Finale users: get on with it. Find a new subject.
> Please
> 
[snip]

If you want a new discussion then you have to start it.  Ask a question, 
air a complaint, whatever.

Nobody leads this group, the conversation goes where it will among the 
people who participate in it.

It sounds as if you think there is a "group leader" who initiates 
discussions -- we're all that person and if you want something 
discussed, change the subject line and post your message.  Just telling 
us all to "get on with it" -- well, we are getting on with it.  We're 
continuing the discussion because it is of value to those who are 
participating.

So what would like us to discuss?


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[craig]

Allen,

Thank you for all those years of effort.  A very large number of us  
benefited greatly from everything you and MakeMusic did.  And even if  
the program is now in "cash cow" or "maintenance" mode, it still is  
useful for many.  That's much more of a run than most software titles  
achieve.




Quoting Dreamhost <al...@fisherartandtech.com>:

> I disagree. I think this is a valuable discussion. Finale is a big  
> part of our lives and livelyhood. I think a discussion of concerns  
> about their direction is valid.
>
> Since I left MakeMusic, I’ve been kind of disheartened at the  
> direction they’re going. I unfortunately don’t know many people over  
> there since the purge of people so I really have no insight. The  
> loss of Michael Johnson, if that is true, is a big loss. Gigantic,  
> in fact. Michael was my boss in QA, and is a close friend and  
> mentor. He really was/is really passionate about Finale, as am I (I  
> spent over 10 years in support/QA/Development).
>
> Allen
>
> Allen Fisher
> allen.fis...@gmail.com
>
>
> On Apr 21, 2018, 11:04 AM -0500, wit...@nctv.com, wrote:
>> I'm so tired of this thread. Finale users: get on with it. Find a  
>> new subject.
>> Please
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu <finale-boun...@shsu.edu> On Behalf  
>> Of Skjalg Bjørstad
>> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 11:59 AM
>> To: finale@shsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?
>>
>> Don’t know about the others, but the major shortcomings in Finale’s  
>> voiced linked parts are -Not access to special tools -No enharmonic  
>> flips
>>
>> Another limitation for linked part: Plug-ins/Script not accessible.  
>> (Scripts are accessible with a workaround, but...)
>>
>> Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.
>>
>> > 21. apr. 2018 kl. 16:15 skrev Robert Patterson  
>> <rob...@robertgpatterson.com>:
>> >
>> > Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
>> > Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable  
>> with a plugin.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
>> > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If
>> > > you want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos
>> > > addressing various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is
>> > > indeed capable of very elegant professional, publishable output.
>> > >
>> > > Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
>> > > finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
>> > > others who do that. I do know there are lots like me who are
>> > > continuing to work in our notation software of choice while learning
>> > > the intricacies of Dorico. I wonder if exporting to Finale simply
>> > > makes things easier for that person because of a workflow developed
>> > > over many years of using Finale, while he is learning the more
>> > > intricate details of the workflow in Dorico to get the same output.
>> > >
>> > > I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music
>> > > engraving tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac
>> > > marketplace. Several publishers, if I remember correctly, began using
>> > > it at that time instead of Finale, while some other publishers added
>> > > Sibelius to their toolbox and used both.
>> > >
>> > > A lot depends on how one defines "truly professional" -- it's
>> > > certainly much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two
>> > > other recent entries into the notation software marketplace, and
>> > > despite major advances with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing
>> > > much more elegant printed output. And it's capable of producing
>> > > output as elegant as Finale's output. I don't work in avant-garde
>> > > notation so I can't speak to either Dorico or Sibelius or Finale
>> > > regarding the ability to accomplish such projects.
>> > >
>> > > I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more
>> > > accurate, but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale
>> > > from Finale2014.5 to Finale25. Linked score/parts didn't suddenly
>> > > become superb and very efficient. I still find Sibelius's linked
>&

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Dreamhost]

I disagree. I think this is a valuable discussion. Finale is a big part of our 
lives and livelyhood. I think a discussion of concerns about their direction is 
valid.

Since I left MakeMusic, I’ve been kind of disheartened at the direction they’re 
going. I unfortunately don’t know many people over there since the purge of 
people so I really have no insight. The loss of Michael Johnson, if that is 
true, is a big loss. Gigantic, in fact. Michael was my boss in QA, and is a 
close friend and mentor. He really was/is really passionate about Finale, as am 
I (I spent over 10 years in support/QA/Development).

Allen

Allen Fisher
allen.fis...@gmail.com


On Apr 21, 2018, 11:04 AM -0500, wit...@nctv.com, wrote:
> I'm so tired of this thread. Finale users: get on with it. Find a new subject.
> Please
>
> -Original Message-
> From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu <finale-boun...@shsu.edu> On Behalf Of Skjalg 
> Bjørstad
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 11:59 AM
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?
>
> Don’t know about the others, but the major shortcomings in Finale’s voiced 
> linked parts are -Not access to special tools -No enharmonic flips
>
> Another limitation for linked part: Plug-ins/Script not accessible. (Scripts 
> are accessible with a workaround, but...)
>
> Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.
>
> > 21. apr. 2018 kl. 16:15 skrev Robert Patterson 
> > <rob...@robertgpatterson.com>:
> >
> > Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
> > Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a plugin.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
> > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:
> >
> > > There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If
> > > you want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos
> > > addressing various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is
> > > indeed capable of very elegant professional, publishable output.
> > >
> > > Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
> > > finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
> > > others who do that. I do know there are lots like me who are
> > > continuing to work in our notation software of choice while learning
> > > the intricacies of Dorico. I wonder if exporting to Finale simply
> > > makes things easier for that person because of a workflow developed
> > > over many years of using Finale, while he is learning the more
> > > intricate details of the workflow in Dorico to get the same output.
> > >
> > > I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music
> > > engraving tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac
> > > marketplace. Several publishers, if I remember correctly, began using
> > > it at that time instead of Finale, while some other publishers added
> > > Sibelius to their toolbox and used both.
> > >
> > > A lot depends on how one defines "truly professional" -- it's
> > > certainly much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two
> > > other recent entries into the notation software marketplace, and
> > > despite major advances with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing
> > > much more elegant printed output. And it's capable of producing
> > > output as elegant as Finale's output. I don't work in avant-garde
> > > notation so I can't speak to either Dorico or Sibelius or Finale
> > > regarding the ability to accomplish such projects.
> > >
> > > I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more
> > > accurate, but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale
> > > from Finale2014.5 to Finale25. Linked score/parts didn't suddenly
> > > become superb and very efficient. I still find Sibelius's linked
> > > score/parts to be much more efficient and easier to use.
> > >
> > > But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing
> > > great output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some
> > > major improvements coming soon. Not only do Finale users need and
> > > deserve this sort of thing, but the marketplace does also. Finale
> > > used to lead, then Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale
> > > was playing catch-up with Sibelius. Will it need to play catch-up
> > > with Dorico as well as Sibelius now? Or will Finale leap ahead with
> > > the next version and force Sibelius and Dorico to catch up to it?
> &

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Voiced linked parts are indeed fatally flawed for having no access to
special tools. The irony is that there is no longer any need for this
restriction and they could essentially just turn it off. I have complained
about it in all the appropriate fora.

Plugins are quite available in linked parts. Just not the ones originally
developed by Makemusic. But since the most useful plugins are 3rd party I
don't see this as a huge loss. (I do find the non-availability of Move
Rests to be annoying though.)


On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Skjalg Bjørstad <
trekkspillman...@icloud.com> wrote:

> Don’t know about the others, but the major shortcomings in Finale’s voiced
> linked parts are
> -Not access to special tools
> -No enharmonic flips
>
> Another limitation for linked part: Plug-ins/Script  not accessible.
> (Scripts are accessible with a workaround, but...)
>
> Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.
>
> > 21. apr. 2018 kl. 16:15 skrev Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com>:
> >
> > Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
> > Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a
> plugin.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
> > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If you
> >> want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos
> addressing
> >> various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is indeed capable of
> >> very elegant professional, publishable output.
> >>
> >> Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
> >> finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
> >> others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are
> continuing to
> >> work in our notation software of choice while learning the intricacies
> of
> >> Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply makes things easier for
> >> that person because of a workflow developed over many years of using
> >> Finale, while he is learning the more intricate details of the workflow
> in
> >> Dorico to get the same output.
> >>
> >> I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music engraving
> >> tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac marketplace.
> Several
> >> publishers, if I remember correctly, began using it at that time
> instead of
> >> Finale, while some other publishers added Sibelius to their toolbox and
> >> used both.
> >>
> >> A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's certainly
> >> much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two other recent
> >> entries into the notation software marketplace, and despite major
> advances
> >> with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing much more elegant printed
> >> output.  And it's capable of producing output as elegant as Finale's
> >> output.  I don't work in avant-garde notation so I can't speak to either
> >> Dorico or Sibelius or Finale regarding the ability to accomplish such
> >> projects.
> >>
> >> I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more accurate,
> >> but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale from
> Finale2014.5
> >> to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly become superb and very
> >> efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked score/parts to be much more
> >> efficient and easier to use.
> >>
> >> But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing great
> >> output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some major
> >> improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and deserve
> this
> >> sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale used to lead, then
> >> Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale was playing catch-up
> with
> >> Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up with Dorico as well as Sibelius
> >> now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with the next version and force Sibelius
> >> and Dorico to catch up to it?
> >>
> >> Of course what I'm saying about Finale is also true about Sibelius -- I
> >> have heard nothing about Sibelius 8 or 8.5 to make me want to upgrade
> from
> >> 7.1.3, and ever since the takeover by Avid I have been worried about
> future
> >> development of Sibelius.
> >>
> >> And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the
> tools
> >> which allow us to get the desired result with the minimum of effort for
> us
> >> so that most of our effort can be put into the creative side of things.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4/21/2018 8:33 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> >>
>  And with the entry of Dorico at the truly professional music engraving
> >>> level
> >>>
> >>> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that
> >>> it has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the
> Dorico
> >>> users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
> >>> product. (Which surprised me.)
> >>>
> >>> Everything I've heard about 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

So I watched this video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPP4GVZbaAs> about
laying out a piano/vocal score for a large orchestral work in Dorico. I
would do (have done) this with linked parts in Finale. Finale's user
interface is quite clunky compared to Dorico. To eliminate the piano
reduction from score view, for example, you have to Force Hide it with a
staff style. But in terms of steps, it is basically equally easy to
implement once you know the steps in Finale.

What I am seeing here is an opportunity for plugin to eliminate a lot of
the pain points with linked parts. I am curious to know what this list
thinks they are.



On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 11:04 AM, <wit...@nctv.com> wrote:

> I'm so tired of this thread. Finale users: get on with it. Find a new
> subject.
> Please
>
> -Original Message-
> From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu <finale-boun...@shsu.edu> On Behalf Of
> Skjalg Bjørstad
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 11:59 AM
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?
>
> Don’t know about the others, but the major shortcomings in Finale’s voiced
> linked parts are -Not access to special tools -No enharmonic flips
>
> Another limitation for linked part: Plug-ins/Script  not accessible.
> (Scripts are accessible with a workaround, but...)
>
> Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.
>
> > 21. apr. 2018 kl. 16:15 skrev Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com>:
> >
> > Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
> > Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a
> plugin.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
> > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If
> >> you want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos
> >> addressing various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is
> >> indeed capable of very elegant professional, publishable output.
> >>
> >> Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
> >> finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
> >> others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are
> >> continuing to work in our notation software of choice while learning
> >> the intricacies of Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply
> >> makes things easier for that person because of a workflow developed
> >> over many years of using Finale, while he is learning the more
> >> intricate details of the workflow in Dorico to get the same output.
> >>
> >> I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music
> >> engraving tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac
> >> marketplace. Several publishers, if I remember correctly, began using
> >> it at that time instead of Finale, while some other publishers added
> >> Sibelius to their toolbox and used both.
> >>
> >> A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's
> >> certainly much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two
> >> other recent entries into the notation software marketplace, and
> >> despite major advances with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing
> >> much more elegant printed output.  And it's capable of producing
> >> output as elegant as Finale's output.  I don't work in avant-garde
> >> notation so I can't speak to either Dorico or Sibelius or Finale
> >> regarding the ability to accomplish such projects.
> >>
> >> I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more
> >> accurate, but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale
> >> from Finale2014.5 to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly
> >> become superb and very efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked
> >> score/parts to be much more efficient and easier to use.
> >>
> >> But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing
> >> great output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some
> >> major improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and
> >> deserve this sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale
> >> used to lead, then Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale
> >> was playing catch-up with Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up
> >> with Dorico as well as Sibelius now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with
> >> the next version and force Sibelius and Dorico to catch up to it?
> >>
> >> Of course what 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[witmer]

I'm so tired of this thread. Finale users: get on with it. Find a new subject. 
Please

-Original Message-
From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu <finale-boun...@shsu.edu> On Behalf Of Skjalg 
Bjørstad
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 11:59 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

Don’t know about the others, but the major shortcomings in Finale’s voiced 
linked parts are -Not access to special tools -No enharmonic flips

Another limitation for linked part: Plug-ins/Script  not accessible. (Scripts 
are accessible with a workaround, but...)

Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.

> 21. apr. 2018 kl. 16:15 skrev Robert Patterson <rob...@robertgpatterson.com>:
> 
> Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
> Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a plugin.
> 
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey < 
> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:
> 
>> There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If 
>> you want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos 
>> addressing various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is 
>> indeed capable of very elegant professional, publishable output.
>> 
>> Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the 
>> finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are 
>> others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are 
>> continuing to work in our notation software of choice while learning 
>> the intricacies of Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply 
>> makes things easier for that person because of a workflow developed 
>> over many years of using Finale, while he is learning the more 
>> intricate details of the workflow in Dorico to get the same output.
>> 
>> I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music 
>> engraving tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac 
>> marketplace. Several publishers, if I remember correctly, began using 
>> it at that time instead of Finale, while some other publishers added 
>> Sibelius to their toolbox and used both.
>> 
>> A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's 
>> certainly much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two 
>> other recent entries into the notation software marketplace, and 
>> despite major advances with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing 
>> much more elegant printed output.  And it's capable of producing 
>> output as elegant as Finale's output.  I don't work in avant-garde 
>> notation so I can't speak to either Dorico or Sibelius or Finale 
>> regarding the ability to accomplish such projects.
>> 
>> I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more 
>> accurate, but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale 
>> from Finale2014.5 to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly 
>> become superb and very efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked 
>> score/parts to be much more efficient and easier to use.
>> 
>> But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing 
>> great output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some 
>> major improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and 
>> deserve this sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale 
>> used to lead, then Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale 
>> was playing catch-up with Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up 
>> with Dorico as well as Sibelius now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with 
>> the next version and force Sibelius and Dorico to catch up to it?
>> 
>> Of course what I'm saying about Finale is also true about Sibelius -- 
>> I have heard nothing about Sibelius 8 or 8.5 to make me want to 
>> upgrade from 7.1.3, and ever since the takeover by Avid I have been 
>> worried about future development of Sibelius.
>> 
>> And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the 
>> tools which allow us to get the desired result with the minimum of 
>> effort for us so that most of our effort can be put into the creative side 
>> of things.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/21/2018 8:33 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>> 
>>>> And with the entry of Dorico at the truly professional music 
>>>> engraving
>>> level
>>> 
>>> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is 
>>> that it has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of 
>>> the Dorico users in this thread even said they export to Finale for 
>>> the finished 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Skjalg Bjørstad]

Don’t know about the others, but the major shortcomings in Finale’s voiced 
linked parts are
-Not access to special tools
-No enharmonic flips

Another limitation for linked part: Plug-ins/Script  not accessible. (Scripts 
are accessible with a workaround, but...)

Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.

> 21. apr. 2018 kl. 16:15 skrev Robert Patterson :
> 
> Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
> Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a plugin.
> 
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:
> 
>> There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If you
>> want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos addressing
>> various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is indeed capable of
>> very elegant professional, publishable output.
>> 
>> Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
>> finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
>> others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are continuing to
>> work in our notation software of choice while learning the intricacies of
>> Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply makes things easier for
>> that person because of a workflow developed over many years of using
>> Finale, while he is learning the more intricate details of the workflow in
>> Dorico to get the same output.
>> 
>> I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music engraving
>> tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac marketplace. Several
>> publishers, if I remember correctly, began using it at that time instead of
>> Finale, while some other publishers added Sibelius to their toolbox and
>> used both.
>> 
>> A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's certainly
>> much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two other recent
>> entries into the notation software marketplace, and despite major advances
>> with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing much more elegant printed
>> output.  And it's capable of producing output as elegant as Finale's
>> output.  I don't work in avant-garde notation so I can't speak to either
>> Dorico or Sibelius or Finale regarding the ability to accomplish such
>> projects.
>> 
>> I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more accurate,
>> but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale from Finale2014.5
>> to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly become superb and very
>> efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked score/parts to be much more
>> efficient and easier to use.
>> 
>> But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing great
>> output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some major
>> improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and deserve this
>> sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale used to lead, then
>> Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale was playing catch-up with
>> Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up with Dorico as well as Sibelius
>> now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with the next version and force Sibelius
>> and Dorico to catch up to it?
>> 
>> Of course what I'm saying about Finale is also true about Sibelius -- I
>> have heard nothing about Sibelius 8 or 8.5 to make me want to upgrade from
>> 7.1.3, and ever since the takeover by Avid I have been worried about future
>> development of Sibelius.
>> 
>> And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the tools
>> which allow us to get the desired result with the minimum of effort for us
>> so that most of our effort can be put into the creative side of things.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/21/2018 8:33 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>> 
 And with the entry of Dorico at the truly professional music engraving
>>> level
>>> 
>>> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that
>>> it has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the Dorico
>>> users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
>>> product. (Which surprised me.)
>>> 
>>> Everything I've heard about the most recent owners of Finale is that they
>>> are quite interested in it. But I haven't heard much about it in recent
>>> months. I hope Michael Johnson's departure was for personal reasons rather
>>> than due to a direction the owners are taking. Meanwhile the rest of the
>>> team (as far as I can tell) seems really engaged and forward looking.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:12 AM, David H. Bailey >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>>On 4/20/2018 7:13 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
>>> 
>>>I take your point that they "could" do some of the abstraction
>>>that is
>>>inherent in the newer programs.  I am not seeing anything that
>>>suggests
>>>to me they are at all 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Craig Parmerlee]

Anybody who can do ANYTHING with percussion parts with ANY of these 
products has my boundless admiration.  I find all the products 
unbelievably tedious when it comes to percussion parts.  There must be a 
better way.

Regarding Dorico being ready for professional use, I agree with David 
that it depends on how you define "professional".  I am convinced that I 
could produce a publication-quality big band chart with it given where 
the program is today.  And if I knew Dorico as well as I know Finale, I 
think I would save about 20% of the time on such a project, mostly 
because of less fiddling with layouts.

If I were doing a orchestra score with 4-part choir, vocal soloist, 
Theremin, piano and harpsichord, I have no idea which product would be 
faster to use.

And one thing I have not tried to do yet, is get my 3-page transcription 
down to 2-pages while keeping the music font reasonably large.  This is 
where I get into a world of hurt with Finale.  If you are willing to let 
Finale print with its default spacing, sometimes the layout isn't too 
laborious.  But in most cases, I want big band parts to be 2 pages on an 
8-1/2x11 sheet (and if using more than 2 pages, I must lay out very easy 
page turns.)  That quickly becomes a dreadful experience with Finale. 
Tomorrow evening I will have some time to go through that process with 
my Dorico demonstration project.  That will show very clearly whether or 
not Dorico has made a major advance in layout.


On 4/21/2018 10:21 AM, Ryszard Pusz wrote:
> I have followed this thread with interest. I continue to use Finale because I 
> am too lazy to learn any other, but I use it quite detachedly. As a 
> percussionist I would like to be able to notate a much greater range of 
> nuances than the program allows, and then to have the sounds played back.
>
> I don't know why the untuned percussion sounds are locked into such a rigid 
> system. Surely it would be possible to have each untuned instrument notated 
> anywhere on the staff, say in a "two-octave" range and have those sounds tied 
> to the neutral clef. Secondly, the strokes used to play them could also be 
> more flexibly notated and played back
>
> But probably NIML (not in my lifetime)…
>
> Ryszard
>
>
> On 21/04/2018, at 11:32 PM, David H. Bailey wrote:
>
>> And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the
>> tools which allow us to get the desired result with the minimum of
>> effort for us so that most of our effort can be put into the creative
>> side of things.
> ___
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>
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> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>


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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Chuck Israels]

The nice comment from David prompts me to weigh in for a moment.

Much of my output in Finale is good — and close to serious engraving standards. 
That’s partly because I have the luxury of being able to work slowly, and 
partly because I work mostly in a idiom with which I am familiar. I have 
learned the tricks that make written idiomatic jazz music look good and be easy 
to read. When I do choral arrangements, the results are OK, but not quite as 
elegant. None of this would be practical (probably possible, but not practical) 
without a couple of Tobias’s plugins and several of Jari’s.

I am in agreement about shortcomings that I had hoped would have been addressed 
by now. Cautionary accidentals is hopelessly broken, so I do that by hand. 
Adjusting space between systems in scores when there are vertical clashes is 
still a time consuming process best done by hand, and when I get picky about 
accidentals on notes with ledger lines, adjusting them horizontally so they 
don’t touch the lines is painful. Those are the things that come quickly to 
mind.

Greg Hamilton produces beautiful work in Finale (and prefers it to Sibelius in 
which he also does excellent work), and I’m sure there are others whose work I 
have had no reason to see. 

I have used Finale from almost day one (certainly version 1.0) and while I have 
found learning how to make it submit to my will, acquiring an instinct for 
controlling computer programs, and eventually being able to edit older works, 
fairly easy (I'm an inveterate tinkerer with my now work — rarely entirely 
finished), every time I use another program I find the learning curve steep 
(even in Pages there are things I think should be easy that are obscure to me). 
So I stick with Finale and will be likely to continue using it until something 
remarkably better arrives that makes learning a new program at my age seem 
worth the trouble.

I really on information about other programs coming from this list to help with 
such a decision.

Chuck

Chuck Israels
cisra...@comcast.net
(360) 201-3434

8831 SE 12th Ave.
Portland OR 97202






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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[George Brooke]

Following this discussion with interest.  As a church musician, a great deal of 
my work involves lyrics. I’d appreciate observations about using lyrics in 
Dorico (especially as compared to Finale).

Thanks

George Brooke

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 20, 2018, at 1:07 PM, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
>> On 4/20/2018 11:33 AM, Lynn David Newton wrote:
>> Forgive me for elbowing in on this discussion. I'll ask my question
>> up front:
>> 
>> I notice (checking sweetwater.com) that there is a "trade-up" path,
>> a way to acquire Dorico for considerably less than the standard
>> price if I am a user of a competing product.
>> 
>> Does that mean I have to somehow *give up* on using the competing
>> product? Which doesn't make sense. Or only present proof of
>> being a user of that product? What's the catch, because the price
>> difference is significant.
>> 
> [snip]
> 
> When we purchase a cross-grade for a piece of software, proving that we 
> are legitimate owners of the competing product the requirement.
> 
> We are not forced into stopping using the competing requirement.
> 
> For example, I used Finale for quite a few years before buying a 
> cross-grade, vastly reduced price, version of Sibelius.  I have been 
> upgrading each practically every upgrade since then, and both programs 
> have worked side by side.
> 
> Then I took advantage of the introductory cross-grade offer of Dorico 
> and now all three of those products work side by side by side on my 
> computer.
> 
> So you can invest in the competition if you wish.
> 
> However, if you are satisfied with Finale and it is able to fulfill all 
> your music engraving needs, then there's no need to start all over again 
> with a different product.
> 
> Competing products such as Sibelius and Dorico are for people who aren't 
> happy with some major aspect of Finale (or other current notation 
> software) and who find that the new product will do something better, 
> easier, faster, smoother, more elegantly, or just plain do something 
> which the current notation software being used can't do.

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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Ryszard Pusz]

I have followed this thread with interest. I continue to use Finale because I 
am too lazy to learn any other, but I use it quite detachedly. As a 
percussionist I would like to be able to notate a much greater range of nuances 
than the program allows, and then to have the sounds played back.

I don't know why the untuned percussion sounds are locked into such a rigid 
system. Surely it would be possible to have each untuned instrument notated 
anywhere on the staff, say in a "two-octave" range and have those sounds tied 
to the neutral clef. Secondly, the strokes used to play them could also be more 
flexibly notated and played back

But probably NIML (not in my lifetime)…

Ryszard


On 21/04/2018, at 11:32 PM, David H. Bailey wrote:

> And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the 
> tools which allow us to get the desired result with the minimum of 
> effort for us so that most of our effort can be put into the creative 
> side of things.

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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a plugin.

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:

> There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If you
> want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos addressing
> various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is indeed capable of
> very elegant professional, publishable output.
>
> Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
> finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
> others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are continuing to
> work in our notation software of choice while learning the intricacies of
> Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply makes things easier for
> that person because of a workflow developed over many years of using
> Finale, while he is learning the more intricate details of the workflow in
> Dorico to get the same output.
>
> I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music engraving
> tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac marketplace. Several
> publishers, if I remember correctly, began using it at that time instead of
> Finale, while some other publishers added Sibelius to their toolbox and
> used both.
>
> A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's certainly
> much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two other recent
> entries into the notation software marketplace, and despite major advances
> with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing much more elegant printed
> output.  And it's capable of producing output as elegant as Finale's
> output.  I don't work in avant-garde notation so I can't speak to either
> Dorico or Sibelius or Finale regarding the ability to accomplish such
> projects.
>
> I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more accurate,
> but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale from Finale2014.5
> to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly become superb and very
> efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked score/parts to be much more
> efficient and easier to use.
>
> But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing great
> output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some major
> improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and deserve this
> sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale used to lead, then
> Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale was playing catch-up with
> Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up with Dorico as well as Sibelius
> now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with the next version and force Sibelius
> and Dorico to catch up to it?
>
> Of course what I'm saying about Finale is also true about Sibelius -- I
> have heard nothing about Sibelius 8 or 8.5 to make me want to upgrade from
> 7.1.3, and ever since the takeover by Avid I have been worried about future
> development of Sibelius.
>
> And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the tools
> which allow us to get the desired result with the minimum of effort for us
> so that most of our effort can be put into the creative side of things.
>
>
>
> On 4/21/2018 8:33 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
>>  > And with the entry of Dorico at the truly professional music engraving
>> level
>>
>> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that
>> it has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the Dorico
>> users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
>> product. (Which surprised me.)
>>
>> Everything I've heard about the most recent owners of Finale is that they
>> are quite interested in it. But I haven't heard much about it in recent
>> months. I hope Michael Johnson's departure was for personal reasons rather
>> than due to a direction the owners are taking. Meanwhile the rest of the
>> team (as far as I can tell) seems really engaged and forward looking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:12 AM, David H. Bailey > > wrote:
>>
>> On 4/20/2018 7:13 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
>>
>> I take your point that they "could" do some of the abstraction
>> that is
>> inherent in the newer programs.  I am not seeing anything that
>> suggests
>> to me they are at all interested in matching up to Dorico.
>>  Indeed, the
>> only recent statements I could find were very much oriented to
>> SmartMusic and not Finale.  If they actually are making a
>> significant
>> investment in the program (which I question), I suggest it would
>> be wise
>> for them to take note of the major advances in the past 2 years
>> in both
>> Dorico and Sibelius, and communicate much more openly with the
>> Finale
>> 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If you 
want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos 
addressing various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is indeed 
capable of very elegant professional, publishable output.

Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the 
finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are 
others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are continuing 
to work in our notation software of choice while learning the 
intricacies of Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply makes 
things easier for that person because of a workflow developed over many 
years of using Finale, while he is learning the more intricate details 
of the workflow in Dorico to get the same output.

I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music engraving 
tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac marketplace. 
Several publishers, if I remember correctly, began using it at that time 
instead of Finale, while some other publishers added Sibelius to their 
toolbox and used both.

A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's certainly 
much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two other recent 
entries into the notation software marketplace, and despite major 
advances with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing much more 
elegant printed output.  And it's capable of producing output as elegant 
as Finale's output.  I don't work in avant-garde notation so I can't 
speak to either Dorico or Sibelius or Finale regarding the ability to 
accomplish such projects.

I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more accurate, 
but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale from 
Finale2014.5 to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly become 
superb and very efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked score/parts 
to be much more efficient and easier to use.

But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing great 
output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some major 
improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and deserve 
this sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale used to lead, 
then Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale was playing 
catch-up with Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up with Dorico as 
well as Sibelius now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with the next version 
and force Sibelius and Dorico to catch up to it?

Of course what I'm saying about Finale is also true about Sibelius -- I 
have heard nothing about Sibelius 8 or 8.5 to make me want to upgrade 
from 7.1.3, and ever since the takeover by Avid I have been worried 
about future development of Sibelius.

And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the 
tools which allow us to get the desired result with the minimum of 
effort for us so that most of our effort can be put into the creative 
side of things.



On 4/21/2018 8:33 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>  > And with the entry of Dorico at the truly professional music 
> engraving level
> 
> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that 
> it has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the 
> Dorico users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the 
> finished product. (Which surprised me.)
> 
> Everything I've heard about the most recent owners of Finale is that 
> they are quite interested in it. But I haven't heard much about it in 
> recent months. I hope Michael Johnson's departure was for personal 
> reasons rather than due to a direction the owners are taking. Meanwhile 
> the rest of the team (as far as I can tell) seems really engaged and 
> forward looking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:12 AM, David H. Bailey  > wrote:
> 
> On 4/20/2018 7:13 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> 
> I take your point that they "could" do some of the abstraction
> that is
> inherent in the newer programs.  I am not seeing anything that
> suggests
> to me they are at all interested in matching up to Dorico. 
> Indeed, the
> only recent statements I could find were very much oriented to
> SmartMusic and not Finale.  If they actually are making a
> significant
> investment in the program (which I question), I suggest it would
> be wise
> for them to take note of the major advances in the past 2 years
> in both
> Dorico and Sibelius, and communicate much more openly with the
> Finale
> user base.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Back when Coda was the owner and Finale was the major product, they
> knew they had to keep communicating with users and work hard to keep
> the program growing in order to satisfy their user base and attract
> new users.  But with virtually no competition in the 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

> And with the entry of Dorico at the truly professional music engraving
level

Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that it
has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the Dorico
users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
product. (Which surprised me.)

Everything I've heard about the most recent owners of Finale is that they
are quite interested in it. But I haven't heard much about it in recent
months. I hope Michael Johnson's departure was for personal reasons rather
than due to a direction the owners are taking. Meanwhile the rest of the
team (as far as I can tell) seems really engaged and forward looking.




On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:12 AM, David H. Bailey 
wrote:

> On 4/20/2018 7:13 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
>
>> I take your point that they "could" do some of the abstraction that is
>> inherent in the newer programs.  I am not seeing anything that suggests
>> to me they are at all interested in matching up to Dorico.  Indeed, the
>> only recent statements I could find were very much oriented to
>> SmartMusic and not Finale.  If they actually are making a significant
>> investment in the program (which I question), I suggest it would be wise
>> for them to take note of the major advances in the past 2 years in both
>> Dorico and Sibelius, and communicate much more openly with the Finale
>> user base.
>>
>> [snip]
>
> Back when Coda was the owner and Finale was the major product, they knew
> they had to keep communicating with users and work hard to keep the program
> growing in order to satisfy their user base and attract new users.  But
> with virtually no competition in the Windows area at that time they were
> the program that any newcomer had to beat.
>
> With the various owners the product has had along the way, coupled with
> the development of a new cash-cow (smartmusic) Finale has been pushed aside
> somewhat, seemingly more with each new owner, and improved mainly so that
> it could create more and better smartmusic accompaniments in addition to
> producing publication-ready engraved music.  To that end, whoever owned the
> program worked to improve the program in obvious ways again to keep the
> user base somewhat satisfied and also in an attempt to attract new users
> but mainly to benefit the SmartMusic marketplace.
>
> But the current owners are not musicians, they were not involved in the
> music field at all before the acquisition of Finale and SmartMusic. Their
> athletic-training background sees a good fit for SmartMusic since it's a
> training software, just for musicians instead of athletes.  And so Finale
> tags along because without it there can't be any new SmartMusic
> accompaniments created.  But Finale upgrades generate an unpredictable
> amount of income and then only when the new version comes out -- once it's
> out and those who will upgrade have done so, there's very little cash-flow
> in the product.  Especially with the less-expensive (free) but very capable
> MuseScore attracting ever larger numbers of people who formerly would have
> had to purchase either Finale or Sibelius (i.e. music students and recent
> graduates of music schools/colleges), Finale's market share among notation
> software users is constantly shrinking.  And with the entry of Dorico at
> the truly professional music engraving level the potential user base is
> diluted even further and the recent entry of Forte and Notion is attracting
> those potential users who don't want to spend a lot of money and who
> formerly would have purchased the cheaper versions of Finale.
>
> But SmartMusic remains the only product of its kind and it has major
> educational market music publishers sewn up. With the annual subscription
> the only business model and schools willing to budget for it so that
> teachers have clearly objective ways of measuring student ability (there's
> no disputing when SmartMusic records a student's performance and gives a
> concrete number of mistakes), it is a golden cash-cow.
>
> We have to remember that in the early days of Finale when Coda was run by
> musicians who cared about making a product that could serve them as well as
> the user base the thrust of the company was to make a product that filled a
> need.
>
> These days when the company is no longer run by musicians but instead by
> accountants and entrepreneurs for whom the bottom line is the most
> important attribute of a product, the product isn't being made to fulfill
> their dream of usefulness, only to fulfill their dream of larger profits.
> So as long as SmartMusic remains profitable and as long as Finale is the
> only way to create SmartMusic accompaniments, Finale will remain viable to
> the company but not a great income generator in and of itself.  If it were
> a larger income generator it wouldn't be getting sold every few years.
>
>
> --
> *
>
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

On 4/20/2018 7:13 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> I take your point that they "could" do some of the abstraction that is
> inherent in the newer programs.  I am not seeing anything that suggests
> to me they are at all interested in matching up to Dorico.  Indeed, the
> only recent statements I could find were very much oriented to
> SmartMusic and not Finale.  If they actually are making a significant
> investment in the program (which I question), I suggest it would be wise
> for them to take note of the major advances in the past 2 years in both
> Dorico and Sibelius, and communicate much more openly with the Finale
> user base.
> 
[snip]

Back when Coda was the owner and Finale was the major product, they knew 
they had to keep communicating with users and work hard to keep the 
program growing in order to satisfy their user base and attract new 
users.  But with virtually no competition in the Windows area at that 
time they were the program that any newcomer had to beat.

With the various owners the product has had along the way, coupled with 
the development of a new cash-cow (smartmusic) Finale has been pushed 
aside somewhat, seemingly more with each new owner, and improved mainly 
so that it could create more and better smartmusic accompaniments in 
addition to producing publication-ready engraved music.  To that end, 
whoever owned the program worked to improve the program in obvious ways 
again to keep the user base somewhat satisfied and also in an attempt to 
attract new users but mainly to benefit the SmartMusic marketplace.

But the current owners are not musicians, they were not involved in the 
music field at all before the acquisition of Finale and SmartMusic. 
Their athletic-training background sees a good fit for SmartMusic since 
it's a training software, just for musicians instead of athletes.  And 
so Finale tags along because without it there can't be any new 
SmartMusic accompaniments created.  But Finale upgrades generate an 
unpredictable amount of income and then only when the new version comes 
out -- once it's out and those who will upgrade have done so, there's 
very little cash-flow in the product.  Especially with the 
less-expensive (free) but very capable MuseScore attracting ever larger 
numbers of people who formerly would have had to purchase either Finale 
or Sibelius (i.e. music students and recent graduates of music 
schools/colleges), Finale's market share among notation software users 
is constantly shrinking.  And with the entry of Dorico at the truly 
professional music engraving level the potential user base is diluted 
even further and the recent entry of Forte and Notion is attracting 
those potential users who don't want to spend a lot of money and who 
formerly would have purchased the cheaper versions of Finale.

But SmartMusic remains the only product of its kind and it has major 
educational market music publishers sewn up. With the annual 
subscription the only business model and schools willing to budget for 
it so that teachers have clearly objective ways of measuring student 
ability (there's no disputing when SmartMusic records a student's 
performance and gives a concrete number of mistakes), it is a golden 
cash-cow.

We have to remember that in the early days of Finale when Coda was run 
by musicians who cared about making a product that could serve them as 
well as the user base the thrust of the company was to make a product 
that filled a need.

These days when the company is no longer run by musicians but instead by 
accountants and entrepreneurs for whom the bottom line is the most 
important attribute of a product, the product isn't being made to 
fulfill their dream of usefulness, only to fulfill their dream of larger 
profits.  So as long as SmartMusic remains profitable and as long as 
Finale is the only way to create SmartMusic accompaniments, Finale will 
remain viable to the company but not a great income generator in and of 
itself.  If it were a larger income generator it wouldn't be getting 
sold every few years.


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Craig Parmerlee]

I take your point that they "could" do some of the abstraction that is 
inherent in the newer programs.  I am not seeing anything that suggests 
to me they are at all interested in matching up to Dorico.  Indeed, the 
only recent statements I could find were very much oriented to 
SmartMusic and not Finale.  If they actually are making a significant 
investment in the program (which I question), I suggest it would be wise 
for them to take note of the major advances in the past 2 years in both 
Dorico and Sibelius, and communicate much more openly with the Finale 
user base.



On 4/20/2018 5:57 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> I'm saying you are selling Finale short. While I agree 100% that
> cautionaries (for example) are a problem, you are sellling it way short to
> characterize it as a mere note paint program. (Accis in particular, are now
> completely controlled by code, as opposed to relying on the document data,
> so all it would take is for them to add the code for cautionaries.) Finale
> has always had a paradigm that was designed for dynamic adjustment to
> revisions. There is absolutely nothing stopping Makemusic from implementing
> much of that right now. It just has not been their priority for many
> frustrating years.
>
> Where Finale is fundamentally limited is in being chained to barlines. To
> the extent Dorico capitalizes on its (presumed) lack of such limitation,
> Finale will struggle to keep up, no matter how committed the company
> becomes to catching up. But I also am unsure how much it matters for the
> huge majority of music notation users.
>
> Finale could do so much more for its users and always could have. I share
> your frustration. But I also work very quickly in it and have developed a
> workflow that often lets me do (for example) page layout of linked parts in
> just a few clicks. (That really depends on the complexity of the music.) I
> know they have not stopped working on it, and they still have many senior
> developers. I wouldn't count them out yet.
>


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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

I'm saying you are selling Finale short. While I agree 100% that
cautionaries (for example) are a problem, you are sellling it way short to
characterize it as a mere note paint program. (Accis in particular, are now
completely controlled by code, as opposed to relying on the document data,
so all it would take is for them to add the code for cautionaries.) Finale
has always had a paradigm that was designed for dynamic adjustment to
revisions. There is absolutely nothing stopping Makemusic from implementing
much of that right now. It just has not been their priority for many
frustrating years.

Where Finale is fundamentally limited is in being chained to barlines. To
the extent Dorico capitalizes on its (presumed) lack of such limitation,
Finale will struggle to keep up, no matter how committed the company
becomes to catching up. But I also am unsure how much it matters for the
huge majority of music notation users.

Finale could do so much more for its users and always could have. I share
your frustration. But I also work very quickly in it and have developed a
workflow that often lets me do (for example) page layout of linked parts in
just a few clicks. (That really depends on the complexity of the music.) I
know they have not stopped working on it, and they still have many senior
developers. I wouldn't count them out yet.


On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Craig Parmerlee 
wrote:

> I didn't really mean that as an exact date or even a comment specifically
> about Finale.  What I should have said is "the 1980s way of doing things."
>
> All of the notation products of that generation (Encore, Overture, Finale,
> etc) can reasonably be called "note paint programs".  That is to say, they
> all provided ways to paint notes, rests, and other musical markings onto a
> canvas.  Once painted, much of this was static.  There was some ability to
> "float" items, say, by inserting measures.  But basically, what you painted
> remained as it was painted until you explicitly painted something
> different. Along the way, some clever people produced some powerful
> plug-ins that allowed certain re-painting operations in bulk.  It worked
> OK, and still does for many people.  But this static painting/re-paining
> approach has some fundamental limitations, especially in the area of
> layout.  There have been some attempts in Finale to automate the layout and
> collision avoidance.  Despite all the effort, I consider that mostly a
> failure because part editing remains a very tedious process that often
> requires 30% of the project time.
>
> And some of that just doesn't work.  I am a stickler for cautionary
> accidentals.  IMHO, the only way to do this reliably in Finale is by hand,
> painstakingly checking every single note. There is a plug-in that is
> supposed to apply cautionary accidentals, but it isn't reliable and often
> does more damage than it corrects.  Moreover, it is always a batch
> process.  If you add new passages, they don't get cautionary accidentals
> automatically.  The same can be said for many operations in Finale.  (e.g.
> multi-measure rests.)  These are batch processes, not real time.
>
> Today's way of doing things separates the idea of "music entry" (as
> opposed to "note entry") from the process of presenting the score and
> parts.  The layout is governed by rules, and these rules are applied in
> real time to all current AND FUTURE material in the score.  I have very
> limited usage of Dorico at this stage, but everything I have seen tells me
> it works very well and reliably.
>
> I would compare this to the first generation of WAV editors like CoolEdit
> and Audacity.  You could use these tools to make transformations to a sound
> file, such as applying compression, normalizing, or equalizing.  But it is
> always a batch process. You have to do the transformation manually, then go
> back and listen to know if the results were as intended.
>
> Today, anybody serious about sound sculpting uses a DAW (Cubase,
> StudioOne, Cakewalk, Protools, etc).  With any DAW, you operate on the
> material in real time -- even while the sound files are playing -- to dial
> in the results you want.A person can use Audacity, and some people still
> do.  But the world has mostly moved on to real time.
>
>
> On 4/20/2018 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
>> the 1985 way
>>>
>> In fairness, the 1985 way was ProCo. If you mean the 1989 way, it was this
>> > 018-04-20%20at%2011.54.54%20AM.png?dl=0>
>> .
>>
>> While I'm the first to recognize Finale's limitations, I think you a being
>> overly harsh.
>>
>
>
> ---
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Craig Parmerlee]

I didn't really mean that as an exact date or even a comment 
specifically about Finale.  What I should have said is "the 1980s way of 
doing things."

All of the notation products of that generation (Encore, Overture, 
Finale, etc) can reasonably be called "note paint programs".  That is to 
say, they all provided ways to paint notes, rests, and other musical 
markings onto a canvas.  Once painted, much of this was static.  There 
was some ability to "float" items, say, by inserting measures.  But 
basically, what you painted remained as it was painted until you 
explicitly painted something different. Along the way, some clever 
people produced some powerful plug-ins that allowed certain re-painting 
operations in bulk.  It worked OK, and still does for many people.  But 
this static painting/re-paining approach has some fundamental 
limitations, especially in the area of layout.  There have been some 
attempts in Finale to automate the layout and collision avoidance.  
Despite all the effort, I consider that mostly a failure because part 
editing remains a very tedious process that often requires 30% of the 
project time.

And some of that just doesn't work.  I am a stickler for cautionary 
accidentals.  IMHO, the only way to do this reliably in Finale is by 
hand, painstakingly checking every single note. There is a plug-in that 
is supposed to apply cautionary accidentals, but it isn't reliable and 
often does more damage than it corrects.  Moreover, it is always a batch 
process.  If you add new passages, they don't get cautionary accidentals 
automatically.  The same can be said for many operations in Finale.  
(e.g. multi-measure rests.)  These are batch processes, not real time.

Today's way of doing things separates the idea of "music entry" (as 
opposed to "note entry") from the process of presenting the score and 
parts.  The layout is governed by rules, and these rules are applied in 
real time to all current AND FUTURE material in the score.  I have very 
limited usage of Dorico at this stage, but everything I have seen tells 
me it works very well and reliably.

I would compare this to the first generation of WAV editors like 
CoolEdit and Audacity.  You could use these tools to make 
transformations to a sound file, such as applying compression, 
normalizing, or equalizing.  But it is always a batch process. You have 
to do the transformation manually, then go back and listen to know if 
the results were as intended.

Today, anybody serious about sound sculpting uses a DAW (Cubase, 
StudioOne, Cakewalk, Protools, etc).  With any DAW, you operate on the 
material in real time -- even while the sound files are playing -- to 
dial in the results you want.A person can use Audacity, and some people 
still do.  But the world has mostly moved on to real time.


On 4/20/2018 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>> the 1985 way
> In fairness, the 1985 way was ProCo. If you mean the 1989 way, it was this
> 
> .
>
> While I'm the first to recognize Finale's limitations, I think you a being
> overly harsh.


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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

On 4/20/2018 11:33 AM, Lynn David Newton wrote:
> Forgive me for elbowing in on this discussion. I'll ask my question
> up front:
> 
> I notice (checking sweetwater.com) that there is a "trade-up" path,
> a way to acquire Dorico for considerably less than the standard
> price if I am a user of a competing product.
> 
> Does that mean I have to somehow *give up* on using the competing
> product? Which doesn't make sense. Or only present proof of
> being a user of that product? What's the catch, because the price
> difference is significant.
> 
[snip]

When we purchase a cross-grade for a piece of software, proving that we 
are legitimate owners of the competing product the requirement.

We are not forced into stopping using the competing requirement.

For example, I used Finale for quite a few years before buying a 
cross-grade, vastly reduced price, version of Sibelius.  I have been 
upgrading each practically every upgrade since then, and both programs 
have worked side by side.

Then I took advantage of the introductory cross-grade offer of Dorico 
and now all three of those products work side by side by side on my 
computer.

So you can invest in the competition if you wish.

However, if you are satisfied with Finale and it is able to fulfill all 
your music engraving needs, then there's no need to start all over again 
with a different product.

Competing products such as Sibelius and Dorico are for people who aren't 
happy with some major aspect of Finale (or other current notation 
software) and who find that the new product will do something better, 
easier, faster, smoother, more elegantly, or just plain do something 
which the current notation software being used can't do.

One limitation of Dorico -- mixed meters.  In Finale, it's possible to 
do mixed meters but the bar-lines stay in the same place so that having 
2/4 and 3/4 at the same time the quarter notes in the 3/4 measure move 
faster than the quarter notes in the 2/4 measure.  How Finale currently 
does it is one desired outcome.  However, many Finale users have long 
wanted the ability to have the different meters but have the quarter 
notes move at the same speed, so the barlines are different on the two 
staves.  Not possible without huge workarounds, none of which are easy 
or satisfactory.

Dorico does it the way many Finale users want it -- if the music has 2/4 
in one staff and 3/4 in a different staff, the barlines are independent 
as well and all the quarter notes move at the same pace.  However, 
Dorico does not allow the user to have it the way Finale does it currently.

Ideally, both notation products would allow the user to have it either 
way, user-selectable on a case-by-case basis.  Sibelius is worse at it 
than Finale but the underlying concept is the same -- all measures take 
up the same amount of time from downbeat to downbeat, so more beats in 
one staff equates to faster beats than the staff with fewer beats.

So Dorico has a ways to go to truly supplant either Finale or Sibelius.


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

> the 1985 way

In fairness, the 1985 way was ProCo. If you mean the 1989 way, it was this

.

While I'm the first to recognize Finale's limitations, I think you a being
overly harsh.



On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 8:50 AM,  wrote:

> I have spent just 90 minutes hands on, and it is already obvious to me
> that I will save loads of time on layout edits and other little
> niceties like cautionary accidentals.  Things like cautionary
> accidentals, beaming, notating ties correction, multi-measure rests
> and many other things happen automatically according to rules you
> choose.
>
> In addition, the new chord support is much more elaborate and
> consistent than anything in Finale.  Finale separates the information
> entry from the information presentation.  This becomes evident on
> chords.  There is only one "major 7" chord, but once your chords are
> entered, you are free to choose any of the popular conventions for
> displaying chord names (e.g. CMaj7, Cma7, CM7, Ctriangle7 etc.)  You
> select the display system and that's how everything displays --
> automatically.
>
> I have not done a full big band chart from start to finish.  I plan to
> do this next week.  That will put Dorico (and me) to the test, as I
> usually begin with MIDI imports for the Rhy instruments.  From what I
> have seen, Dorico has done a good job of handling MIDI and XML import.
>
> One thing that seems goofy with Dorico is the idea that is it hard to
> turn on chord symbols in a limited way.  For example, I typically show
> all the chords for piano and guitar. I will often do simplified chords
> (and fewer chords) for bass.  And I will show chords for horns only
> during solos of course.  I think this is all possible in Dorico, but I
> don't think the Dorico folks understand how jazz notation works.  This
> is the one case I have seen where it is probably easier to do it the
> 1985 way.
>
>
> Quoting Martin Nickless :
>
> > Hi
> > May I just ask what may seem very simplistic but what difference
> > does dorico have on somebody i.e. myself that is primarily writing
> > big band scores and small jazz groups quartets quintets etc
> > to my mind finale works perfectly well for those type of projects
> > Martin
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On 20 Apr 2018, at 13:17, Robert Patterson
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I guess I don't understand how a master page set works. What advantage
> does
> >> it bring for working on a few instruments at a time?
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 5:45 AM, David H. Bailey <
> dhbaile...@comcast.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ooops -- I guess the musician in me was more powerful than the French
> >>> student.
> >>>
> >>> What clef does the "voilà" use?  The French violin clef of course.
> >>>
> >>> David H. Bailey
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>  On 4/19/2018 9:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey  >
> >>> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> >> n choose whichever instruments out of the total
> > original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You
> simply
> > select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you
> > have just what you need in the new flow.
> 
>  Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.
> 
>  :) Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > David H. Bailey
> > dhbaile...@comcast.net
> > http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
> > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> 
>  Chuck Israels
>  cisra...@comcast.net
>  (360) 201-3434
> 
>  8831 SE 12th Ave.
>  Portland OR 97202
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  ___
>  Finale mailing list
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>  https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
>  To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>  finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> David H. Bailey
> >>> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> >>> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> >>> ___
> >>> Finale mailing list
> >>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>>
> >> ___
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> >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
> 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Lynn David Newton]

Forgive me for elbowing in on this discussion. I'll ask my question
up front:

I notice (checking sweetwater.com) that there is a "trade-up" path,
a way to acquire Dorico for considerably less than the standard
price if I am a user of a competing product.

Does that mean I have to somehow *give up* on using the competing
product? Which doesn't make sense. Or only present proof of
being a user of that product? What's the catch, because the price
difference is significant.

By way of background: I have gotten good
Finale support from finaleforum.com, so rarely say anything here,
but do follow discussions. I'm certainly aware of the developments
in competing products, with Sibelius and Dorico, neither of which
I have ever even seen let alone used. But for twenty years (in another
life) I made almost all my living as a music engraver using the old
method of music typewriters et al., plus I'm a composer, so I know
notation rather well.

Finale has so far satisfied my needs, and I have used it to create
some pretty complex music. However, I'm naturally curious about
new developments, even though today I'm pretty much semi-retired
from work and a sort of hobbyist. And would be interested at some
point in trying at least Dorico (which seems to be the one that will
continue in due time). But I don't know if I'm $560 worth of
interested.

Sorry to interrupt your discussion. Carry on.


On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 10:30 AM, dfr...@smcm.edu  wrote:
> Robert Patterson wrote:
>>
>> I don't think I understand Steve Parker's comment about "MT scores". I
>> don't doubt that Finale requires stitching together thirty files, but I
>> don't understand the requirement well enough to understand why.
>>
>> My question about different layouts is, are they anything like linked
>> parts? Because an improved interface for copying part layouts is definitely
>> something that I've wanted and could actually be done by a plugin.
>
> I have Dorico and have been learning it, on and off, while they finish up the 
> program. It is impressive.
>
> The layout options are based on Dorico understanding every line of music as a 
> stream of notes that can be reformatted and placed anywhere. The stream of 
> notes are pitch and duration, not locked to measures. So if you change the 
> meter, or combine measures, or whatever, Dorico rebeams, adds or takes away 
> dotted notes/tied notes, etc. All overridable, based on individual or global 
> choices.
>
> On pages, you have text boxes that can have anything, but mostly are for 
> header/footer things as one kind of box (filled in as linked to file 
> information you supply elsewhere) and music boxes. The music boxes can be 
> made to any dimension, dragged around the page, and can contain anything you 
> like — from individual parts to sets of parts, from any of the movements 
> (flows). So, for example, they like to show that it is dead simple to do a 
> piano four-hand score with piano two on the left side, piano one on the right 
> side. And, with minimal work, reformat it with piano two on top of piano one, 
> or even (for two pianos) piano one and two as separate parts.
>
> The default choices, of course, are full score and individual parts, each 
> completely controllable, with intelligent choices about what is linked to the 
> score and what isn’t.
>
> I haven’t lived with this very long — and if there are Dorico people who want 
> to refine or correct what I wrote, please chime in.
>
> David Froom
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>
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-- 
Lynn David Newton
Columbus, Ohio
neologisticsediting.com
lynndavidnewton.com

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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[dfr...@smcm.edu]

Robert Patterson wrote:
> 
> I don't think I understand Steve Parker's comment about "MT scores". I
> don't doubt that Finale requires stitching together thirty files, but I
> don't understand the requirement well enough to understand why.
> 
> My question about different layouts is, are they anything like linked
> parts? Because an improved interface for copying part layouts is definitely
> something that I've wanted and could actually be done by a plugin.

I have Dorico and have been learning it, on and off, while they finish up the 
program. It is impressive.

The layout options are based on Dorico understanding every line of music as a 
stream of notes that can be reformatted and placed anywhere. The stream of 
notes are pitch and duration, not locked to measures. So if you change the 
meter, or combine measures, or whatever, Dorico rebeams, adds or takes away 
dotted notes/tied notes, etc. All overridable, based on individual or global 
choices.

On pages, you have text boxes that can have anything, but mostly are for 
header/footer things as one kind of box (filled in as linked to file 
information you supply elsewhere) and music boxes. The music boxes can be made 
to any dimension, dragged around the page, and can contain anything you like — 
from individual parts to sets of parts, from any of the movements (flows). So, 
for example, they like to show that it is dead simple to do a piano four-hand 
score with piano two on the left side, piano one on the right side. And, with 
minimal work, reformat it with piano two on top of piano one, or even (for two 
pianos) piano one and two as separate parts. 

The default choices, of course, are full score and individual parts, each 
completely controllable, with intelligent choices about what is linked to the 
score and what isn’t.

I haven’t lived with this very long — and if there are Dorico people who want 
to refine or correct what I wrote, please chime in. 

David Froom
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

On 4/20/2018 8:28 AM, Martin Nickless wrote:
> Hi
> May I just ask what may seem very simplistic but what difference does dorico 
> have on somebody i.e. myself that is primarily writing big band scores and 
> small jazz groups quartets quintets etc
> to my mind finale works perfectly well for those type of projects
> Martin
[snip]

For someone like you Dorico won't offer anything you can't already do 
just fine in Finale, other than the frustration of needing to learn a 
new software product.

If Finale works perfectly well for you there's no need to change to a 
different notation product unless/until your version of Finale stops 
working with whatever future version of your OS happens to be on your 
machine.

That's always the challenge for a new product in any field -- offering 
sufficient improvements for a sufficient number of customers to make it 
worthwhile to purchase the new product.  And with Finale and Sibelius 
already fairly mature products with established user bases, a new 
product like Dorico (or Forte or Notion) has to offer benefits to a wide 
potential user base, and so far I don't see any

The benefit Dorico would offer someone like you would be if you were 
planning on writing a major work, say a 90-minute cohesive jazz work 
which would have short movements each of which would use a different 
size ensemble.  Of course with Finale you would most likely just create 
different files, one for each piece.  In Dorico you *might* find a more 
elegant way of accomplishing the desired end result all within one 
single file.  But outside of such a large project, Dorico won't offer 
you anything other than a more elegant notation font perhaps, and a 
different approach to entering the notes and getting the desired result 
on paper.

But if Finale works fine for you now, there's no need to change.

-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Martin Nickless]

Exactly that’s why I have recently purchased the bill Duncan chord fonts  for 
example but thank you for a great answer

Sent from my iPhone

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 15:00, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
>> On 4/20/2018 8:28 AM, Martin Nickless wrote:
>> Hi
>> May I just ask what may seem very simplistic but what difference does dorico 
>> have on somebody i.e. myself that is primarily writing big band scores and 
>> small jazz groups quartets quintets etc
>> to my mind finale works perfectly well for those type of projects
>> Martin
> [snip]
> 
> For someone like you Dorico won't offer anything you can't already do just 
> fine in Finale, other than the frustration of needing to learn a new software 
> product.
> 
> If Finale works perfectly well for you there's no need to change to a 
> different notation product unless/until your version of Finale stops working 
> with whatever future version of your OS happens to be on your machine.
> 
> That's always the challenge for a new product in any field -- offering 
> sufficient improvements for a sufficient number of customers to make it 
> worthwhile to purchase the new product.  And with Finale and Sibelius already 
> fairly mature products with established user bases, a new product like Dorico 
> (or Forte or Notion) has to offer benefits to a wide potential user base, and 
> so far I don't see any
> 
> The benefit Dorico would offer someone like you would be if you were planning 
> on writing a major work, say a 90-minute cohesive jazz work which would have 
> short movements each of which would use a different size ensemble.  Of course 
> with Finale you would most likely just create different files, one for each 
> piece.  In Dorico you *might* find a more elegant way of accomplishing the 
> desired end result all within one single file.  But outside of such a large 
> project, Dorico won't offer you anything other than a more elegant notation 
> font perhaps, and a different approach to entering the notes and getting the 
> desired result on paper.
> 
> But if Finale works fine for you now, there's no need to change.
> 
> -- 
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com

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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Vosbein, Terry]

I am, for one, very optimistic. I see no evidence that Finale is a dead end. I 
have had Finale since the start and every update is a big improvement of a 
great product that does everything I need it to do (And i am a very heavy, hard 
core user).


Terry Vosbein





> If you can pardon my rant, my real question is if anybody sees any 
> reason to be optimistic that Finale is going to be anything more than a 
> dead end.

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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[craig]

I have spent just 90 minutes hands on, and it is already obvious to me  
that I will save loads of time on layout edits and other little  
niceties like cautionary accidentals.  Things like cautionary  
accidentals, beaming, notating ties correction, multi-measure rests  
and many other things happen automatically according to rules you  
choose.

In addition, the new chord support is much more elaborate and  
consistent than anything in Finale.  Finale separates the information  
entry from the information presentation.  This becomes evident on  
chords.  There is only one "major 7" chord, but once your chords are  
entered, you are free to choose any of the popular conventions for  
displaying chord names (e.g. CMaj7, Cma7, CM7, Ctriangle7 etc.)  You  
select the display system and that's how everything displays --  
automatically.

I have not done a full big band chart from start to finish.  I plan to  
do this next week.  That will put Dorico (and me) to the test, as I  
usually begin with MIDI imports for the Rhy instruments.  From what I  
have seen, Dorico has done a good job of handling MIDI and XML import.

One thing that seems goofy with Dorico is the idea that is it hard to  
turn on chord symbols in a limited way.  For example, I typically show  
all the chords for piano and guitar. I will often do simplified chords  
(and fewer chords) for bass.  And I will show chords for horns only  
during solos of course.  I think this is all possible in Dorico, but I  
don't think the Dorico folks understand how jazz notation works.  This  
is the one case I have seen where it is probably easier to do it the  
1985 way.


Quoting Martin Nickless :

> Hi
> May I just ask what may seem very simplistic but what difference  
> does dorico have on somebody i.e. myself that is primarily writing  
> big band scores and small jazz groups quartets quintets etc
> to my mind finale works perfectly well for those type of projects
> Martin
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 20 Apr 2018, at 13:17, Robert Patterson  
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I guess I don't understand how a master page set works. What advantage does
>> it bring for working on a few instruments at a time?
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 5:45 AM, David H. Bailey 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ooops -- I guess the musician in me was more powerful than the French
>>> student.
>>>
>>> What clef does the "voilà" use?  The French violin clef of course.
>>>
>>> David H. Bailey
>>>
>>>
>>>
 On 4/19/2018 9:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:


> On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey 
>>> wrote:
>
>> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>> n choose whichever instruments out of the total
> original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply
> select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you
> have just what you need in the new flow.

 Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.

 :) Chuck




>
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
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 Chuck Israels
 cisra...@comcast.net
 (360) 201-3434

 8831 SE 12th Ave.
 Portland OR 97202

 




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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> David H. Bailey
>>> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>>> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>>> ___
>>> Finale mailing list
>>> Finale@shsu.edu
>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>>
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>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>>>
>> ___
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>>
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>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>
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>
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Martin Nickless]

Hi 
May I just ask what may seem very simplistic but what difference does dorico 
have on somebody i.e. myself that is primarily writing big band scores and 
small jazz groups quartets quintets etc 
to my mind finale works perfectly well for those type of projects
Martin

Sent from my iPhone

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 13:17, Robert Patterson  
> wrote:
> 
> I guess I don't understand how a master page set works. What advantage does
> it bring for working on a few instruments at a time?
> 
> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 5:45 AM, David H. Bailey 
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Ooops -- I guess the musician in me was more powerful than the French
>> student.
>> 
>> What clef does the "voilà" use?  The French violin clef of course.
>> 
>> David H. Bailey
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 4/19/2018 9:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey 
>> wrote:
 
> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> n choose whichever instruments out of the total
 original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply
 select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you
 have just what you need in the new flow.
>>> 
>>> Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.
>>> 
>>> :) Chuck
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 
 David H. Bailey
 dhbaile...@comcast.net
 http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
 ___
 Finale mailing list
 Finale@shsu.edu
 https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 
 To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
 finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>>> 
>>> Chuck Israels
>>> cisra...@comcast.net
>>> (360) 201-3434
>>> 
>>> 8831 SE 12th Ave.
>>> Portland OR 97202
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Finale mailing list
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>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>> 
>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> David H. Bailey
>> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
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>> 
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>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>> 
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

I guess I don't understand how a master page set works. What advantage does
it bring for working on a few instruments at a time?

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 5:45 AM, David H. Bailey 
wrote:

>
>
>
> Ooops -- I guess the musician in me was more powerful than the French
> student.
>
> What clef does the "voilà" use?  The French violin clef of course.
>
> David H. Bailey
>
>
>
> On 4/19/2018 9:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> >>> n choose whichever instruments out of the total
> >> original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply
> >> select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you
> >> have just what you need in the new flow.
> >
> > Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.
> >
> > :) Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> David H. Bailey
> >> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> >> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> >> ___
> >> Finale mailing list
> >> Finale@shsu.edu
> >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
> > Chuck Israels
> > cisra...@comcast.net
> > (360) 201-3434
> >
> > 8831 SE 12th Ave.
> > Portland OR 97202
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
> > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
>
>
> --
> David H. Bailey
> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
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>
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

Ooops -- I guess the musician in me was more powerful than the French 
student.

What clef does the "voilà" use?  The French violin clef of course.

David H. Bailey



On 4/19/2018 9:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey  wrote:
>>
>> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>>> n choose whichever instruments out of the total
>> original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply
>> select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you
>> have just what you need in the new flow.
> 
> Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.
> 
> :) Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> David H. Bailey
>> dhbaile...@comcast.net
>> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>
>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> 
> Chuck Israels
> cisra...@comcast.net
> (360) 201-3434
> 
> 8831 SE 12th Ave.
> Portland OR 97202
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

Ooops -- I guess the musician in me was more powerful than the French 
student.

What clef does the "voilà" use?  The French violin clef of course.

David H. Bailey



On 4/19/2018 9:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey  wrote:
>>
>> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>>> n choose whichever instruments out of the total
>> original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply
>> select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you
>> have just what you need in the new flow.
> 
> Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.
> 
> :) Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> David H. Bailey
>> dhbaile...@comcast.net
>> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>
>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> 
> Chuck Israels
> cisra...@comcast.net
> (360) 201-3434
> 
> 8831 SE 12th Ave.
> Portland OR 97202
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Steve Parker]

It also deals with doubling and instrument changes automatically. You basically 
have different staves for the same player in galley view, and it sorts it 
everywhere else. 
Cueing other instruments is also so easy that I provide many more cues than I 
used to. 
I’m just giving these as examples of where ‘mature’ doesn’t necessarily mean 
there are only small steps of improvement to take. 
ATM I’m doing work in Dorico, then quickly re-doing again in Finale for 
delivery.  Re-doing it now is slower and much more frustrating than in Dorico. 

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 01:18, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
>> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>> I don't think I understand Steve Parker's comment about "MT scores". I
>> don't doubt that Finale requires stitching together thirty files, but I
>> don't understand the requirement well enough to understand why.
>> 
>> My question about different layouts is, are they anything like linked
>> parts? Because an improved interface for copying part layouts is definitely
>> something that I've wanted and could actually be done by a plugin.
>> 
> 
> I have only begun to scratch the surface of what Dorico can do, but I'll 
> take a stab at answering this.  Then Steve Parker can leap in and tell 
> me I'm crazy and fix up my explanation.
> 
> Musical theater has all those many different songs and dances and vamps 
> and scene-change pieces, many with different instrumentation needs. 
> Very hard to do in a single large file in Finale.
> 
> In Dorico, you create the total ensemble you want, assigning instruments 
> (and sounds) to the "players" (Dorico is using some terms that are a bit 
> strange in my opinion).  So if the maximum number of instruments needed 
> is a total of 30 different instruments for the total show, you can 
> create that ensemble to begin with.
> 
> Dorico has things called "flows" which are essentially different 
> movements.  One can choose whichever instruments out of the total 
> original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply 
> select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you 
> have just what you need in the new flow.
> 
> The layout for each "flow" can be completely different from other 
> "flows" in the same file, all done easily and without endangering the 
> layouts for other flows.
> 
> Then, once all the flows are created, the part for each of the original 
> "players" can be printed and it will show only the flows that player is 
> used in.  I haven't worked with the linked parts yet, but from all I've 
> read they are a dream compared to Finale's.
> 
> There are many videos about using Dorico on Youtube, so you could search 
> there to see what's possible.
> 
> It really is very powerful software but with a vastly different approach 
> to notation projects from either Finale or Sibelius.
> 
> -- 
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
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> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Steve Parker]

The linked parts work well in Dorico, with a continuing discussion on what 
should/should not be linked and how best to override. They basically work like 
Finale now, but will become more flexible and user-preferanceable..

For copying part layouts, Dorico has master-page sets, which can be applied to 
any score or part. It’s very easy to create new layouts. I find myself creating 
a score of two or three instruments just to work on a few bars. 

It doesn’t have something like Jari’s Copy Part Layout to  put the same number 
of bars on each line in across parts. I’ve discussed this kind of thing with 
them with also the possibility to copy text positioning. 

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 00:58, Robert Patterson  
> wrote:
> 
> I don't think I understand Steve Parker's comment about "MT scores". I
> don't doubt that Finale requires stitching together thirty files, but I
> don't understand the requirement well enough to understand why.
> 
> My question about different layouts is, are they anything like linked
> parts? Because an improved interface for copying part layouts is definitely
> something that I've wanted and could actually be done by a plugin.
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Steve Parker  wrote:
>> 
>> Dorico’s workflow is interesting.
>> I can do an MT score for a production in one file, rather than thirty
>> which need stitching together in Finale. Different cues can be assigned to
>> different layouts. It’s simple to have alternatives in the same file and to
>> pick and replace.
>> 
>>> On 19 Apr 2018, at 20:48, David H. Bailey 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 On 4/19/2018 2:20 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
 [snip]
 Every year that Finale does nothing, it gets another year behind the
 state of the art.  It seems doubtful to me Finale will ever return to
 anywhere close to the state of the art.  Moreover, I don't see any
 indication the company even considers that a goal.
>>> [snip]
>>> 
>>> Finale is a mature program, as is Sibelius.  That doesn't mean it's
>>> close to perfect, but it does mean that the company realizes that there
>>> is a diminishing return on investment, since what it improves will be
>>> meaningful (most of the time) to a decreasing number of users.
>>> 
>>> And the marketplace for new users is very divided -- college students
>>> can get by very adequately with MuseScore, as can many amateur
>>> composers/arrangers who would have been the prime candidates for the
>>> cheaper versions of Finale in the past.  And the marketplace currently
>>> is very divided, what with Sibelius still going strong, the entry of
>>> Dorico to compete for the high-end publishing quality notation software
>>> market, along with Notion and Forte to take up the not-so-high-end part
>>> of the marketplace.  These days I recommend MuseScore to all my students
>>> who express an interest in notation software, since it is very powerful
>>> and continues to get better and better.  Only if someone wants something
>>> better than MuseScore to I suggest Finale and/or Sibelius.
>>> 
>>> Personally I have switched to doing practically all my notation products
>>> in Sibelius -- for my notational needs it does all that I need/want and
>>> it does it more easily and quickly.
>>> 
>>> The company isn't moving Finale forward very fast because it can't
>>> recoup its investment.  Whereas with SmartMusic, and its
>>> subscription-only business model, it sits on a cash cow.  As far as the
>>> company is concerned, I'll bet they consider Finale necessary primarily
>>> as a tool for people to create SmartMusic accompaniment files and it can
>>> already do what it needs to for that without further investment in the
>>> minutiae of avant-garde notation and without improving long-standing
>>> bugs which will never get fixed.
>>> 
>>> Heck, even if you create your own music and then create SmartMusic
>>> accompaniment files, you still have to pay the subscription fee!  Smart
>>> marketing, but something I don't have any interest in doing.  However,
>>> for band directors and other music teachers in academic situations, it's
>>> something that gives them objective data on which to assign grades to
>>> students, and it takes very little effort on the band director or music
>>> teacher's part.  And once the assignments have been created the teacher
>>> no longer needs to schedule time to hear every student, and students
>>> can't complain "Mr. So-and-So doesn't like me so he gave me a D, when
>>> SuzyQ, who got an A, doesn't play any better than I do!"
>>> 
>>> That's been the course of the company for the past several owners.
>>> 
>>> I'm very sorry to read that Michael Johnson has left the company.  Is
>>> there anybody from the "good old days" left?  I assume Michael Goode is
>>> still there, but he is a recent addition.  Is there any "institutional
>>> memory" left among the development team?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *
>>> David H. Bailey
>>> 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Chuck Israels]

> On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>> n choose whichever instruments out of the total 
> original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply 
> select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you 
> have just what you need in the new flow.

Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.

:) Chuck




> 
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu

Chuck Israels
cisra...@comcast.net
(360) 201-3434

8831 SE 12th Ave.
Portland OR 97202






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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> I don't think I understand Steve Parker's comment about "MT scores". I
> don't doubt that Finale requires stitching together thirty files, but I
> don't understand the requirement well enough to understand why.
> 
> My question about different layouts is, are they anything like linked
> parts? Because an improved interface for copying part layouts is definitely
> something that I've wanted and could actually be done by a plugin.
> 

I have only begun to scratch the surface of what Dorico can do, but I'll 
take a stab at answering this.  Then Steve Parker can leap in and tell 
me I'm crazy and fix up my explanation.

Musical theater has all those many different songs and dances and vamps 
and scene-change pieces, many with different instrumentation needs. 
Very hard to do in a single large file in Finale.

In Dorico, you create the total ensemble you want, assigning instruments 
(and sounds) to the "players" (Dorico is using some terms that are a bit 
strange in my opinion).  So if the maximum number of instruments needed 
is a total of 30 different instruments for the total show, you can 
create that ensemble to begin with.

Dorico has things called "flows" which are essentially different 
movements.  One can choose whichever instruments out of the total 
original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply 
select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you 
have just what you need in the new flow.

The layout for each "flow" can be completely different from other 
"flows" in the same file, all done easily and without endangering the 
layouts for other flows.

Then, once all the flows are created, the part for each of the original 
"players" can be printed and it will show only the flows that player is 
used in.  I haven't worked with the linked parts yet, but from all I've 
read they are a dream compared to Finale's.

There are many videos about using Dorico on Youtube, so you could search 
there to see what's possible.

It really is very powerful software but with a vastly different approach 
to notation projects from either Finale or Sibelius.

-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

I don't think I understand Steve Parker's comment about "MT scores". I
don't doubt that Finale requires stitching together thirty files, but I
don't understand the requirement well enough to understand why.

My question about different layouts is, are they anything like linked
parts? Because an improved interface for copying part layouts is definitely
something that I've wanted and could actually be done by a plugin.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Steve Parker  wrote:

> Dorico’s workflow is interesting.
> I can do an MT score for a production in one file, rather than thirty
> which need stitching together in Finale. Different cues can be assigned to
> different layouts. It’s simple to have alternatives in the same file and to
> pick and replace.
>
> > On 19 Apr 2018, at 20:48, David H. Bailey 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/19/2018 2:20 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >> Every year that Finale does nothing, it gets another year behind the
> >> state of the art.  It seems doubtful to me Finale will ever return to
> >> anywhere close to the state of the art.  Moreover, I don't see any
> >> indication the company even considers that a goal.
> > [snip]
> >
> > Finale is a mature program, as is Sibelius.  That doesn't mean it's
> > close to perfect, but it does mean that the company realizes that there
> > is a diminishing return on investment, since what it improves will be
> > meaningful (most of the time) to a decreasing number of users.
> >
> > And the marketplace for new users is very divided -- college students
> > can get by very adequately with MuseScore, as can many amateur
> > composers/arrangers who would have been the prime candidates for the
> > cheaper versions of Finale in the past.  And the marketplace currently
> > is very divided, what with Sibelius still going strong, the entry of
> > Dorico to compete for the high-end publishing quality notation software
> > market, along with Notion and Forte to take up the not-so-high-end part
> > of the marketplace.  These days I recommend MuseScore to all my students
> > who express an interest in notation software, since it is very powerful
> > and continues to get better and better.  Only if someone wants something
> > better than MuseScore to I suggest Finale and/or Sibelius.
> >
> > Personally I have switched to doing practically all my notation products
> > in Sibelius -- for my notational needs it does all that I need/want and
> > it does it more easily and quickly.
> >
> > The company isn't moving Finale forward very fast because it can't
> > recoup its investment.  Whereas with SmartMusic, and its
> > subscription-only business model, it sits on a cash cow.  As far as the
> > company is concerned, I'll bet they consider Finale necessary primarily
> > as a tool for people to create SmartMusic accompaniment files and it can
> > already do what it needs to for that without further investment in the
> > minutiae of avant-garde notation and without improving long-standing
> > bugs which will never get fixed.
> >
> > Heck, even if you create your own music and then create SmartMusic
> > accompaniment files, you still have to pay the subscription fee!  Smart
> > marketing, but something I don't have any interest in doing.  However,
> > for band directors and other music teachers in academic situations, it's
> > something that gives them objective data on which to assign grades to
> > students, and it takes very little effort on the band director or music
> > teacher's part.  And once the assignments have been created the teacher
> > no longer needs to schedule time to hear every student, and students
> > can't complain "Mr. So-and-So doesn't like me so he gave me a D, when
> > SuzyQ, who got an A, doesn't play any better than I do!"
> >
> > That's been the course of the company for the past several owners.
> >
> > I'm very sorry to read that Michael Johnson has left the company.  Is
> > there anybody from the "good old days" left?  I assume Michael Goode is
> > still there, but he is a recent addition.  Is there any "institutional
> > memory" left among the development team?
> >
> > --
> > *
> > David H. Bailey
> > dhbaile...@comcast.net
> > http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
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> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Craig Parmerlee]

David, I think you have very accurately captured the situation with the 
text I excerpted below.  And if we go back to the commentary offered by 
the new CEO upon acquisition, many of us thought his comments were truly 
bizarre, as they seemed to describe music notation as a fitness coach 
would describe weight lifting. In retrospect, it seems he was talking 
mainly about SmartMusic and had very little interest in Finale per se.

As recently as 18 months ago, I thought Sibelius was on a similar dead 
end, so I was just waiting for Dorico to become mature enough for my 
needs.  The big missing piece for me was chord support, which came with 
1.2 (or was it 1.1?)  But I was intending to wait until release 2 to 
begin the commitment to the learning curve.

I have had a Sibelius license forever but never really learned the 
product.  The last time I seriously tried, there was no scroll view, and 
I just could not get past that.  Of course they have had scroll view for 
a long time now, but then it looked like development was dead, so I 
didn't want to invest time in a dead product.  But it appears to me that 
Finale has responded to Dorico by deciding there is no point competing, 
whereas Avid has responded to Dorico by making a real investment.  So 
now I have to decide which product I want to invest the learning curve 
time in. Money for the license isn't a big deal.  The big issue is the 
learning curve time, which is 100 times greater than the license money.

I have a small transcription project to do with 2 weeks to complete it.  
I could probably knock it out in 3 hours with Finale.  I'm starting the 
Dorico 30-day trial this weekend and will tackle this project while 
learning the Dorico basics.


On 4/19/2018 3:48 PM, David H. Bailey wrote:
> with SmartMusic, and its
> subscription-only business model, it sits on a cash cow.  As far as the
> company is concerned, I'll bet they consider Finale necessary primarily
> as a tool for people to create SmartMusic accompaniment files and it can
> already do what it needs to for that without further investment in the
> minutiae of avant-garde notation and without improving long-standing
> bugs which will never get fixed.
>
> ...However,
> for band directors and other music teachers in academic situations, it's
> something that gives them objective data on which to assign grades to
> students, and it takes very little effort on the band director or music
> teacher's part.  And once the assignments have been created the teacher
> no longer needs to schedule time to hear every student, and students
> can't complain "Mr. So-and-So doesn't like me so he gave me a D, when
> SuzyQ, who got an A, doesn't play any better than I do!"
>
> That's been the course of the company for the past several owners.


---
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

On 4/19/2018 4:04 PM, Steve Parker wrote:
> Dorico’s workflow is interesting.
> I can do an MT score for a production in one file, rather than thirty which 
> need stitching together in Finale. Different cues can be assigned to 
> different layouts. It’s simple to have alternatives in the same file and to 
> pick and replace.
> 
[snip]

That's one thing about Dorico which I've yet to be able to wrap my head 
around -- admittedly I haven't spent the amount of time I should in 
order to come to terms with the new workflow paradigm that Dorico has 
embraced.

I remember buying Sibelius at version 2.1, back when I was a diehard 
Finale user, and finding Sibelius difficult to wrap my head around until 
verison 5 when I finally admitted to myself that I was simply being a 
fool and trying to use Sibelius as if it were some new version of 
Finale, which of course it's not.  Once I admitted that and approached 
Sibelius as if I were brand new to computer notation software and 
started with very tiny baby steps and gradually increased the size and 
complexity of  my projects, I became very fluent in using it to where 
it's my first choice for new projects.

I just have to make the time to do the same with Dorico -- I can see it 
has a lot of promise, especially for very large projects.  I just need 
to sit down with the manual and the program and spend a lot of time 
starting from the very beginning.

And especially practice leaving my Sibelius and Finale experience behind 
and not try to think of Dorico as modified versions of either program.


-- 
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Steve Parker]

Dorico’s workflow is interesting. 
I can do an MT score for a production in one file, rather than thirty which 
need stitching together in Finale. Different cues can be assigned to different 
layouts. It’s simple to have alternatives in the same file and to pick and 
replace.  

> On 19 Apr 2018, at 20:48, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
>> On 4/19/2018 2:20 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
>> [snip]
>> Every year that Finale does nothing, it gets another year behind the
>> state of the art.  It seems doubtful to me Finale will ever return to
>> anywhere close to the state of the art.  Moreover, I don't see any
>> indication the company even considers that a goal.
> [snip]
> 
> Finale is a mature program, as is Sibelius.  That doesn't mean it's 
> close to perfect, but it does mean that the company realizes that there 
> is a diminishing return on investment, since what it improves will be 
> meaningful (most of the time) to a decreasing number of users.
> 
> And the marketplace for new users is very divided -- college students 
> can get by very adequately with MuseScore, as can many amateur 
> composers/arrangers who would have been the prime candidates for the 
> cheaper versions of Finale in the past.  And the marketplace currently 
> is very divided, what with Sibelius still going strong, the entry of 
> Dorico to compete for the high-end publishing quality notation software 
> market, along with Notion and Forte to take up the not-so-high-end part 
> of the marketplace.  These days I recommend MuseScore to all my students 
> who express an interest in notation software, since it is very powerful 
> and continues to get better and better.  Only if someone wants something 
> better than MuseScore to I suggest Finale and/or Sibelius.
> 
> Personally I have switched to doing practically all my notation products 
> in Sibelius -- for my notational needs it does all that I need/want and 
> it does it more easily and quickly.
> 
> The company isn't moving Finale forward very fast because it can't 
> recoup its investment.  Whereas with SmartMusic, and its 
> subscription-only business model, it sits on a cash cow.  As far as the 
> company is concerned, I'll bet they consider Finale necessary primarily 
> as a tool for people to create SmartMusic accompaniment files and it can 
> already do what it needs to for that without further investment in the 
> minutiae of avant-garde notation and without improving long-standing 
> bugs which will never get fixed.
> 
> Heck, even if you create your own music and then create SmartMusic 
> accompaniment files, you still have to pay the subscription fee!  Smart 
> marketing, but something I don't have any interest in doing.  However, 
> for band directors and other music teachers in academic situations, it's 
> something that gives them objective data on which to assign grades to 
> students, and it takes very little effort on the band director or music 
> teacher's part.  And once the assignments have been created the teacher 
> no longer needs to schedule time to hear every student, and students 
> can't complain "Mr. So-and-So doesn't like me so he gave me a D, when 
> SuzyQ, who got an A, doesn't play any better than I do!"
> 
> That's been the course of the company for the past several owners.
> 
> I'm very sorry to read that Michael Johnson has left the company.  Is 
> there anybody from the "good old days" left?  I assume Michael Goode is 
> still there, but he is a recent addition.  Is there any "institutional 
> memory" left among the development team?
> 
> -- 
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[David H. Bailey]

On 4/19/2018 2:20 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
[snip]
> Every year that Finale does nothing, it gets another year behind the
> state of the art.  It seems doubtful to me Finale will ever return to
> anywhere close to the state of the art.  Moreover, I don't see any
> indication the company even considers that a goal.
[snip]

Finale is a mature program, as is Sibelius.  That doesn't mean it's 
close to perfect, but it does mean that the company realizes that there 
is a diminishing return on investment, since what it improves will be 
meaningful (most of the time) to a decreasing number of users.

And the marketplace for new users is very divided -- college students 
can get by very adequately with MuseScore, as can many amateur 
composers/arrangers who would have been the prime candidates for the 
cheaper versions of Finale in the past.  And the marketplace currently 
is very divided, what with Sibelius still going strong, the entry of 
Dorico to compete for the high-end publishing quality notation software 
market, along with Notion and Forte to take up the not-so-high-end part 
of the marketplace.  These days I recommend MuseScore to all my students 
who express an interest in notation software, since it is very powerful 
and continues to get better and better.  Only if someone wants something 
better than MuseScore to I suggest Finale and/or Sibelius.

Personally I have switched to doing practically all my notation products 
in Sibelius -- for my notational needs it does all that I need/want and 
it does it more easily and quickly.

The company isn't moving Finale forward very fast because it can't 
recoup its investment.  Whereas with SmartMusic, and its 
subscription-only business model, it sits on a cash cow.  As far as the 
company is concerned, I'll bet they consider Finale necessary primarily 
as a tool for people to create SmartMusic accompaniment files and it can 
already do what it needs to for that without further investment in the 
minutiae of avant-garde notation and without improving long-standing 
bugs which will never get fixed.

Heck, even if you create your own music and then create SmartMusic 
accompaniment files, you still have to pay the subscription fee!  Smart 
marketing, but something I don't have any interest in doing.  However, 
for band directors and other music teachers in academic situations, it's 
something that gives them objective data on which to assign grades to 
students, and it takes very little effort on the band director or music 
teacher's part.  And once the assignments have been created the teacher 
no longer needs to schedule time to hear every student, and students 
can't complain "Mr. So-and-So doesn't like me so he gave me a D, when 
SuzyQ, who got an A, doesn't play any better than I do!"

That's been the course of the company for the past several owners.

I'm very sorry to read that Michael Johnson has left the company.  Is 
there anybody from the "good old days" left?  I assume Michael Goode is 
still there, but he is a recent addition.  Is there any "institutional 
memory" left among the development team?

-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Leaving aside what happened with BIAB, how is Dorico more automatic than
Finale with respect to beams and ties? (I don't doubt it is. I'm just
curious how.) I tend to distrust a lot of automation, unless it can be
overridden on a case-by-case basis.

What I expect the company that owns Finale to do is to continue addressing
pain points. That's what I hope they'll do anyway. Address enough pain
points and I suppose it won't matter if it's on the vanguard. I'm not sure
I even know what "state of the art" means.

Are there notations Finale won't do that it should? Absolutely: multihandle
smart shapes, for example. And I believe Dorico *does* that, at least for
slurs. Finale should have added it years ago, and there is nothing
precluding them from adding them now. But that's not revolutionary change.
Is there a notation Finale won't do that requires revolutionary change? I'm
not sure. What might it be?


On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Craig Parmerlee 
wrote:

> I used BIAB harmonization a lot, especially to get a quick draft of an
> arrangement.  I usually re-harmonized manually for the final copy, but it
> was a very useful way to get something going quickly.
>
> Over time, this degraded.  Eventually it became very destructive, as
> whenever you would run the tool on a range of measures, it would mess up
> the beaming for other measures on the same instrument, even measures not in
> the selected range.  Because of this rather serious bug, it really isn't
> productive to keep a version of F2012 installed to be able to run the BIAB
> plug-in.
>
> And that bug illustrates a difference between a 1980s era program like
> Finale and a modern program like Dorico.  In Dorico, the beaming and ties
> are completely automatic, following the notation rules you establish.  If
> you move notes around in time, the music automatically re-casts itself to
> be notated correctly with regards to beams and ties.  Every year that
> Finale does nothing, it gets another year behind the state of the art.  It
> seems doubtful to me Finale will ever return to anywhere close to the state
> of the art.  Moreover, I don't see any indication the company even
> considers that a goal.
>
>
>
>
> On 4/19/2018 1:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
>> Tempo tool and BIAB were significant features? Color me surprised. I'd be
>> interested to know if others found them to be significant. Personally I
>> never used BIAB even once, and the Tempo Tool only rarely and only up
>> until
>> Human Playback was a thing. But I admit I'm not that fussy about playback.
>> Obviously ymmv.
>>
>> FWIW: I recompiled JW Tempo for 64-bit macOS. It works just fine in
>> MacFin25. (Basically, the Tempo Tool was removed from the F25 U.I. but not
>> the underlying support for tempo changes.) It's a free download on my
>> website if you think it might be useful. I always found it to be more what
>> I wanted out of tempo changes than the Tempo Tool.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Craig Parmerlee 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Tempo tool.  BIAB harmonization.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/19/2018 9:10 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>>>
>>> Which functionality was lost v25? I've been on it so long I forgot.


>>> ---
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Craig Parmerlee]

I used BIAB harmonization a lot, especially to get a quick draft of an 
arrangement.  I usually re-harmonized manually for the final copy, but 
it was a very useful way to get something going quickly.

Over time, this degraded.  Eventually it became very destructive, as 
whenever you would run the tool on a range of measures, it would mess up 
the beaming for other measures on the same instrument, even measures not 
in the selected range.  Because of this rather serious bug, it really 
isn't productive to keep a version of F2012 installed to be able to run 
the BIAB plug-in.

And that bug illustrates a difference between a 1980s era program like 
Finale and a modern program like Dorico.  In Dorico, the beaming and 
ties are completely automatic, following the notation rules you 
establish.  If you move notes around in time, the music automatically 
re-casts itself to be notated correctly with regards to beams and ties.  
Every year that Finale does nothing, it gets another year behind the 
state of the art.  It seems doubtful to me Finale will ever return to 
anywhere close to the state of the art.  Moreover, I don't see any 
indication the company even considers that a goal.



On 4/19/2018 1:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> Tempo tool and BIAB were significant features? Color me surprised. I'd be
> interested to know if others found them to be significant. Personally I
> never used BIAB even once, and the Tempo Tool only rarely and only up until
> Human Playback was a thing. But I admit I'm not that fussy about playback.
> Obviously ymmv.
>
> FWIW: I recompiled JW Tempo for 64-bit macOS. It works just fine in
> MacFin25. (Basically, the Tempo Tool was removed from the F25 U.I. but not
> the underlying support for tempo changes.) It's a free download on my
> website if you think it might be useful. I always found it to be more what
> I wanted out of tempo changes than the Tempo Tool.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Craig Parmerlee 
> wrote:
>
>> Tempo tool.  BIAB harmonization.
>>
>>
>> On 4/19/2018 9:10 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>>
>>> Which functionality was lost v25? I've been on it so long I forgot.
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Tempo tool and BIAB were significant features? Color me surprised. I'd be
interested to know if others found them to be significant. Personally I
never used BIAB even once, and the Tempo Tool only rarely and only up until
Human Playback was a thing. But I admit I'm not that fussy about playback.
Obviously ymmv.

FWIW: I recompiled JW Tempo for 64-bit macOS. It works just fine in
MacFin25. (Basically, the Tempo Tool was removed from the F25 U.I. but not
the underlying support for tempo changes.) It's a free download on my
website if you think it might be useful. I always found it to be more what
I wanted out of tempo changes than the Tempo Tool.



On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Craig Parmerlee 
wrote:

> Tempo tool.  BIAB harmonization.
>
>
> On 4/19/2018 9:10 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
>> Which functionality was lost v25? I've been on it so long I forgot.
>>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Craig Parmerlee]

Tempo tool.  BIAB harmonization.


On 4/19/2018 9:10 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> Which functionality was lost v25? I've been on it so long I forgot.


---
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Fiskum, Steve]

I work the same way. 

Steve

> On Apr 19, 2018, at 9:21 AM, Robert Patterson  
> wrote:
> 
> Perhaps because I only view one page at a time? I find having the others on
> screen distracting, and I prefer to zoom in to the page I'm working on to
> fill the screen. Therefore, I have basically never used multipage layout.
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Fiskum, Steve  wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Robert,
>> 
>> I would love to hear how you make that happen. Screen redraws take up too
>> much time when doing detailed layouts. I bought new computers thinking that
>> might be the issue...did not help. Turned on “Open in Low Resolution.” I am
>> usually doing orchestral or band projects when I see this degradation. I do
>> not see this when working on small octavos or small method book type
>> examples but even in those cases, if I compare it to FIN12...12 will always
>> redraw the the screen faster.
>> 
>> This was confirmed in my meeting with MM last Dec. No solution as of yet.
>> 
>> It appears to me that the screen is redrawing all of the pages in the
>> background (not just the one you are viewing) every time a move is made.
>> There was a version (maybe 97) that had this same problem on the initial
>> release.
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>>> On Apr 19, 2018, at 8:55 AM, Robert Patterson <
>> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wow. I have the opposite experience with FIn25. It's much faster than
>> Fin12
>>> on Mac (at least the way I use it).
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Fiskum, Steve 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 Now that Michael Johnson is no longer with the company (recent news)
>> it’s
 going to be hard to figure out where they will go with the program. A
>> big
 loss for all of us old timers.
 
 My biggest issue with 25 is speed. It’s painfully slow when compared to
 FIN12.
 
 Steve Fiskum
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Perhaps because I only view one page at a time? I find having the others on
screen distracting, and I prefer to zoom in to the page I'm working on to
fill the screen. Therefore, I have basically never used multipage layout.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Fiskum, Steve  wrote:

> Hey Robert,
>
> I would love to hear how you make that happen. Screen redraws take up too
> much time when doing detailed layouts. I bought new computers thinking that
> might be the issue...did not help. Turned on “Open in Low Resolution.” I am
> usually doing orchestral or band projects when I see this degradation. I do
> not see this when working on small octavos or small method book type
> examples but even in those cases, if I compare it to FIN12...12 will always
> redraw the the screen faster.
>
> This was confirmed in my meeting with MM last Dec. No solution as of yet.
>
> It appears to me that the screen is redrawing all of the pages in the
> background (not just the one you are viewing) every time a move is made.
> There was a version (maybe 97) that had this same problem on the initial
> release.
>
> Steve
>
> > On Apr 19, 2018, at 8:55 AM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > Wow. I have the opposite experience with FIn25. It's much faster than
> Fin12
> > on Mac (at least the way I use it).
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Fiskum, Steve 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Now that Michael Johnson is no longer with the company (recent news)
> it’s
> >> going to be hard to figure out where they will go with the program. A
> big
> >> loss for all of us old timers.
> >>
> >> My biggest issue with 25 is speed. It’s painfully slow when compared to
> >> FIN12.
> >>
> >> Steve Fiskum
> >> ___
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> >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Fiskum, Steve]

Hey Robert,

I would love to hear how you make that happen. Screen redraws take up too much 
time when doing detailed layouts. I bought new computers thinking that might be 
the issue...did not help. Turned on “Open in Low Resolution.” I am usually 
doing orchestral or band projects when I see this degradation. I do not see 
this when working on small octavos or small method book type examples but even 
in those cases, if I compare it to FIN12...12 will always redraw the the screen 
faster. 

This was confirmed in my meeting with MM last Dec. No solution as of yet. 

It appears to me that the screen is redrawing all of the pages in the 
background (not just the one you are viewing) every time a move is made. There 
was a version (maybe 97) that had this same problem on the initial release.

Steve 

> On Apr 19, 2018, at 8:55 AM, Robert Patterson  
> wrote:
> 
> Wow. I have the opposite experience with FIn25. It's much faster than Fin12
> on Mac (at least the way I use it).
> 
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Fiskum, Steve  wrote:
> 
>> Now that Michael Johnson is no longer with the company (recent news) it’s
>> going to be hard to figure out where they will go with the program. A big
>> loss for all of us old timers.
>> 
>> My biggest issue with 25 is speed. It’s painfully slow when compared to
>> FIN12.
>> 
>> Steve Fiskum
>> ___
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>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Wow. I have the opposite experience with FIn25. It's much faster than Fin12
on Mac (at least the way I use it).

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Fiskum, Steve  wrote:

> Now that Michael Johnson is no longer with the company (recent news) it’s
> going to be hard to figure out where they will go with the program. A big
> loss for all of us old timers.
>
> My biggest issue with 25 is speed. It’s painfully slow when compared to
> FIN12.
>
> Steve Fiskum
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Fiskum, Steve]

Now that Michael Johnson is no longer with the company (recent news) it’s going 
to be hard to figure out where they will go with the program. A big loss for 
all of us old timers.

My biggest issue with 25 is speed. It’s painfully slow when compared to FIN12. 

Steve Fiskum
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Simon Troup]

Thank you for this link Robert. You can sort by 'planned' and I hope that
those things are carried through.

Since the forums were closed I've lost a lot of interest in Finale. I use
it all the time, but I no longer correspond regularly with people about it
or champion it like I used to. I'd miss it if it disappeared, and would
have to retrain to use something else, but frankly, I'm amazed and
delighted that I've been able to use it without many problems for the last
10 years or more, throughout which it seem to have lived a rather fragile
existence. Since about mid 2005 I consider every year a bonus :)

Simon


--

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On 19 April 2018 at 14:10, Robert Patterson 
wrote:

> Which functionality was lost v25? I've been on it so long I forgot. (The
> biggest loss of functionality for me came in Fin09, when they dropped
> note-attached expressions.) The main thing I remember in F25 is the screwed
> up Mac Print Dialog. But I've learned to live with it. (Heck, I almost
> don't even use it any more now that someone on this list turned me on to
> Export Pages.)
>
> I don't expect we will see revolutionary changes to Finale anyt time soon.
> But sfaik they are continuing to add incremental improvements. You can get
> a sense of the kinds of issues they have planned to fix over at the Feature
> Request Forum
>  200449177-Finale-Feature-Requests?sort_by=recent_activity>.
> (Look for items marked "Planned".) Others (marked "Answered") usually
> indicate sympathy and awareness of the issue. I can only some of hope those
> will change to "Planned" at a future date.
>
> Over time, evolutionary change can seem revolutionary. I am pretty
> astounded at the difference between F25 and any pre-F12 version. And even
> the difference from F12 is noticeable.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 7:42 AM, Don Hart  wrote:
>
> > Like watching paint dry.
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 5:59 PM Christopher Smith <
> > christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > Hahaha! Yes, of course!
> > >
> > > Christopher
> > >
> > > > On Apr 18, 2018, at 6:49 PM, SN jef chippewa <
> > > shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i find these tools quite useful, and they are entirely genre- and
> > > platform-independent: they work just as awesomely for the newest of the
> > new
> > > music notation as for basically all traditional approaches to music
> > > notation, western or other.
> > > > https://youtu.be/mci6NVBJbvo
> > > >
> > > >> All that said, I’m always happy to be pointed to a technique or a
> tool
> > > I might have missed that solves problems like these and others.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > neueweise -- fonts for new music and traditional notation
> > > > http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts
> > > >
> > > > shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> > > > new music notation + translation + arts management
> > > > [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise | [TW]
> http://twitter.com/neueweise
> > > >
> > > > ___
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> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Skjalg Bjørstad]

I really miss the mirror tool. I guess I’m the only one, but a major part of my 
workflow was based on it. 

Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.

> 19. apr. 2018 kl. 15:10 skrev Robert Patterson :
> 
> Which functionality was lost v25? I've been on it so long I forgot. (The
> biggest loss of functionality for me came in Fin09, when they dropped
> note-attached expressions.) The main thing I remember in F25 is the screwed
> up Mac Print Dialog. But I've learned to live with it. (Heck, I almost
> don't even use it any more now that someone on this list turned me on to
> Export Pages.)
> 
> I don't expect we will see revolutionary changes to Finale anyt time soon.
> But sfaik they are continuing to add incremental improvements. You can get
> a sense of the kinds of issues they have planned to fix over at the Feature
> Request Forum
> .
> (Look for items marked "Planned".) Others (marked "Answered") usually
> indicate sympathy and awareness of the issue. I can only some of hope those
> will change to "Planned" at a future date.
> 
> Over time, evolutionary change can seem revolutionary. I am pretty
> astounded at the difference between F25 and any pre-F12 version. And even
> the difference from F12 is noticeable.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 7:42 AM, Don Hart  wrote:
>> 
>> Like watching paint dry.
>> 
>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 5:59 PM Christopher Smith <
>> christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hahaha! Yes, of course!
>>> 
>>> Christopher
>>> 
 On Apr 18, 2018, at 6:49 PM, SN jef chippewa <
>>> shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:
 
 
 i find these tools quite useful, and they are entirely genre- and
>>> platform-independent: they work just as awesomely for the newest of the
>> new
>>> music notation as for basically all traditional approaches to music
>>> notation, western or other.
 https://youtu.be/mci6NVBJbvo
 
> All that said, I’m always happy to be pointed to a technique or a tool
>>> I might have missed that solves problems like these and others.
 
 --
 
 neueweise -- fonts for new music and traditional notation
 http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts
 
 shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
 new music notation + translation + arts management
 [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise | [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
 
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>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Which functionality was lost v25? I've been on it so long I forgot. (The
biggest loss of functionality for me came in Fin09, when they dropped
note-attached expressions.) The main thing I remember in F25 is the screwed
up Mac Print Dialog. But I've learned to live with it. (Heck, I almost
don't even use it any more now that someone on this list turned me on to
Export Pages.)

I don't expect we will see revolutionary changes to Finale anyt time soon.
But sfaik they are continuing to add incremental improvements. You can get
a sense of the kinds of issues they have planned to fix over at the Feature
Request Forum
.
(Look for items marked "Planned".) Others (marked "Answered") usually
indicate sympathy and awareness of the issue. I can only some of hope those
will change to "Planned" at a future date.

Over time, evolutionary change can seem revolutionary. I am pretty
astounded at the difference between F25 and any pre-F12 version. And even
the difference from F12 is noticeable.


On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 7:42 AM, Don Hart  wrote:

> Like watching paint dry.
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 5:59 PM Christopher Smith <
> christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
> > Hahaha! Yes, of course!
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> > > On Apr 18, 2018, at 6:49 PM, SN jef chippewa <
> > shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > i find these tools quite useful, and they are entirely genre- and
> > platform-independent: they work just as awesomely for the newest of the
> new
> > music notation as for basically all traditional approaches to music
> > notation, western or other.
> > > https://youtu.be/mci6NVBJbvo
> > >
> > >> All that said, I’m always happy to be pointed to a technique or a tool
> > I might have missed that solves problems like these and others.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > neueweise -- fonts for new music and traditional notation
> > > http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts
> > >
> > > shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> > > new music notation + translation + arts management
> > > [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise | [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Finale mailing list
> > > Finale@shsu.edu
> > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
> >
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> >
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Don Hart]

Like watching paint dry.

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 5:59 PM Christopher Smith <
christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> Hahaha! Yes, of course!
>
> Christopher
>
> > On Apr 18, 2018, at 6:49 PM, SN jef chippewa <
> shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > i find these tools quite useful, and they are entirely genre- and
> platform-independent: they work just as awesomely for the newest of the new
> music notation as for basically all traditional approaches to music
> notation, western or other.
> > https://youtu.be/mci6NVBJbvo
> >
> >> All that said, I’m always happy to be pointed to a technique or a tool
> I might have missed that solves problems like these and others.
> >
> > --
> >
> > neueweise -- fonts for new music and traditional notation
> > http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts
> >
> > shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> > new music notation + translation + arts management
> > [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise | [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
> >
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
> > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>
>
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Christopher Smith]

Hahaha! Yes, of course!

Christopher

> On Apr 18, 2018, at 6:49 PM, SN jef chippewa  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> i find these tools quite useful, and they are entirely genre- and 
> platform-independent: they work just as awesomely for the newest of the new 
> music notation as for basically all traditional approaches to music notation, 
> western or other.
> https://youtu.be/mci6NVBJbvo
> 
>> All that said, I’m always happy to be pointed to a technique or a tool I 
>> might have missed that solves problems like these and others.
> 
> -- 
> 
> neueweise -- fonts for new music and traditional notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts
> 
> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> new music notation + translation + arts management
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise | [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
> 
> ___
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> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu


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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[SN jef chippewa]

i find these tools quite useful, and they are entirely genre- and 
platform-independent: they work just as awesomely for the newest of the new 
music notation as for basically all traditional approaches to music notation, 
western or other.
https://youtu.be/mci6NVBJbvo

> All that said, I’m always happy to be pointed to a technique or a tool I 
> might have missed that solves problems like these and others.

-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music and traditional notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
new music notation + translation + arts management
[FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise | [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise

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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Doug Walter]

I don’t have any insights as to what their plans might be, although given the 
decades of work that I’ve done with the program, I certainly hope they keep it 
alive.

Mostly I’m responding here to second (LOUDLY) the desire for vastly improved 
layout capabilities. It’s only thanks to the wonderful JW and TGTools plug-ins, 
among others (JW Copy Part Layout is a huge time-saver), that I can even stand 
the whole layout and collision-avoidance process at all. But formatting scores 
to avoid collisions is still a huge time commitment and especially annoying 
when dealing with large orchestra scores as I am currently. While I’m not 
always happy with how Sibelius's (I own it but don’t use it very often) 
Magnetic Layout places things, I have to applaud them for including such a 
function in the first place. And it seems that it does far more good than harm. 
As opposed to, say, Finale’s Vertical Collision Remover, which results in such 
grossly exaggerated spaces (at least in large scores) that it’s all but 
unusable for me.

All that said, I’m always happy to be pointed to a technique or a tool I might 
have missed that solves problems like these and others.

Doug


> On Apr 18, 2018, at 3:22 PM, Craig Parmerlee  wrote:
> 
> The current owners took over the company in 2014.  They delivered 
> version 25, which provided 64-bit support and a few other odds and ends 
> -- while dropping some rather significant functionality.  I did find 
> Version 25 to be a little more stable, so I have lived with the feature 
> deprecation.  Since that time, there have been a couple of small patches 
> -- literally a few dozen bug fixes in 3 years and minimal new capability.
> 
> In the same time frame, Avid dismissed the Sibelius development team and 
> moved to development to Russia.  They went several years with minimal 
> product improvement, so Finale and Sibelius both seemed both to be on 
> the same dead end track.
> 
> Meanwhile MuseScore continued to evolve rapidly. And Presonus made an 
> investment in Notion. The big move was Steinberg/Yamaha hiring the 
> Sibelius team to develop Dorico.  During most of the past 4 years, that 
> was a "skunk works" or a very immature early product release for 
> enthusiasts.
> 
> But now that we are well into 2018, the notation world has changed 
> significantly. It appears to me that Finale is still on a dead end, and 
> the company is making no effort to communicate any significant plans.  
> The most revealing thing I could find was this from January:
> 
> https://www.scoringnotes.com/news/namm-2018-makemusic-smartmusic-finale/
> 
> To summarize that article, it sounds like most efforts are in 
> SmartMusic, with practically nothing happening with Finale.  It is 
> revealing that they are saying they are not planning anything in 2018 
> that would be significant enough to charge an upgrade price for.
> 
> Dorico recently delivered version 1.2, which brings it fairly close to 
> what one could consider a full-function, commercial-grade product.  It 
> is still lacking in a few areas, such as playback, but is a very viable 
> product in its own right.  And it appears they will launch a major 
> upgrade with Version 2 in the next few months.
> 
> In the past 12 months, Avid has been very active with Sibelius 
> development, putting out a series of updates, including the most recent 
> 8.4 last week.  These releases track with Dorico in making the layout 
> much more flexible and the spacing much more automatic.  Meanwhile, it 
> has been roughly a decade since we saw the last real improvement in 
> automatic layout in Finale.  I increasingly see Finale as a huge 
> time-waster.  It has become typical for 20% of my time on a project to 
> be consumed in final edits that are now mostly automatic within Dorico 
> and Sibelius.
> 
> If you can pardon my rant, my real question is if anybody sees any 
> reason to be optimistic that Finale is going to be anything more than a 
> dead end.
> 
> 
> ---
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