Re: [Fis] Curious chronicle
Pedro -- This sentiment seems odd to me. This is because I have retired to an out-of-the-way rural area and no longer travel to conferences, and so my only contact with other than family members is through e-mail, including lists. And my wife does all our communications with the locals. I do NOT feel lonely, etc. at all. It seems like the perfect setup to me! Every day I find new messages from all over the world. In what way is my situation different from all those lonely persons? Could it be my 'cold' Scandinavian genome? Or simply my age? STAN On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan < pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote: > Dear Wolfgang, Rafael, Joseph... and FIS Collegues, > > Very briefly, as I am incurring in a forbidden "three" per week, I see the > general problem with ICT & social networks as an "information glut". It is > very similar to the parallel epidemics of obesity in affluent contemporary > societies. In the same way that our bodies are not very well equipped for > the sedentary life style and the overconsumption of food --and this is > clearly written in the genes selected during our long history as > hunter-gatherers-- we are also ill-equipped to deal with the diminishing > structure of meaningful social bonds around us and the increase of "junk" > information. Parallel to obesity, there is a current, silent epidemics of > loneliness, depression, psychogenic pain, suicide... How to counter that? > Very difficult problem, but knowing better what is the "sociotype", or say > the ranges of social structures akin to our genetic inheritance, would help > to identify better cultural alternatives and lifestyles, including better > uses for ICT presumably. > > A careful discussion should involve social networks (network science), > social brain hypothesis, evolutionary paleoanthropology, neuroscience, ICT, > cultural analysis, etc., and above all and a nice information science > integration. We are far from knowing *Homo informationalis! > > *best * > > Pedro > > * > Wolfgang Hofkirchner escribió: > > dear pedro, > > what you mention here is just what bothers me since long. in the scientific > literature about the internet (both empirical and kind of philosophical) > there are two positions to be found: > > the first position is the optimistic one in which the potentialities of the > new media are praised and the technical support for establishing new ties > (bonds with people) are appreciated. the second position is rather > cultural-critical and bemoans the rubbish that is multiplied by the net and > the gadgets that mediate that. > > i, for my part, guess, the truth is a little bit more complicated. the new > ties you can establish are not only strong ties that you strengthen by > technology (e.g. when i was abroad i skyped with my family) but also and > predominantly weak ties that promote a kind of irresponsibility because you > can enter a "community" and – that's more important – leave it whenever you > want without sanctions being there. thus my research question: how can we > shape icts in order to foster real communities? > > wolfgang > > http://hofkirchner.uti.at/ > > Am 21.07.2010 um 12:10 schrieb Pedro C. Marijuan: > > Dear Rafael, Bob, and FIS Colleagues > > Thanks a lot for the erudite comment and the elegant Latin. I quite > agree about that challenging aspect. However, I keep thinking that the > whole new communication technologies are adding to the decreasing > "sociotype" of individuals in todays' society. Like TV in the previous > generation, they provide an easy amusement but at the cost of a tighter > budget in the daily time needed for socialization. Like other > Anthropoids (following the "Social Brain Hypothesis") we need around 20 > % of time devoted to social "grooming", to languaging, laughing etc. in > a variety of social groups. Do not paying on a daily basis this > evolutionary debt conduces to disappointment, frustration, depression, > unhappiness... My point is that the whole ITC are bringing extra > opportunities for a variety of e-contacts but at the same time are > diminishing the "social grooming". This could be searched out throughout > the notion of "sociotype" summarizing the connective structure around > the individual, and would need specific inter-multi-cultural > researches, and above all achieving more concretion around a series of > indicators. > > Bob's very positive comments about "ascendancy" in weighed graphs are > much appreciated. In next exchanges I would like to introduce some > further ideas. Maybe human social networks as gauged by the sociotype > could also benefit of the ascendancy approach (metrics abouts > parenthood, relatives, friendships, acquaintances, etc.) Who knows. > > About sports and wars, I think Tom Stonier had already published in this > very list about the subject (1997-98?), or was it in some FIS Proceedings? > > all the best > > Pedro > > Rafael Capurro escribió: > > Dear Pedro and all, > > in an arti
Re: [Fis] Curious chronicle
Dear Wolfgang, Rafael, Joseph... and FIS Collegues, Very briefly, as I am incurring in a forbidden "three" per week, I see the general problem with ICT & social networks as an "information glut". It is very similar to the parallel epidemics of obesity in affluent contemporary societies. In the same way that our bodies are not very well equipped for the sedentary life style and the overconsumption of food --and this is clearly written in the genes selected during our long history as hunter-gatherers-- we are also ill-equipped to deal with the diminishing structure of meaningful social bonds around us and the increase of "junk" information. Parallel to obesity, there is a current, silent epidemics of loneliness, depression, psychogenic pain, suicide... How to counter that? Very difficult problem, but knowing better what is the "sociotype", or say the ranges of social structures akin to our genetic inheritance, would help to identify better cultural alternatives and lifestyles, including better uses for ICT presumably. A careful discussion should involve social networks (network science), social brain hypothesis, evolutionary paleoanthropology, neuroscience, ICT, cultural analysis, etc., and above all and a nice information science integration. We are far from knowing /Homo informationalis! /best / Pedro / Wolfgang Hofkirchner escribió: dear pedro, what you mention here is just what bothers me since long. in the scientific literature about the internet (both empirical and kind of philosophical) there are two positions to be found: the first position is the optimistic one in which the potentialities of the new media are praised and the technical support for establishing new ties (bonds with people) are appreciated. the second position is rather cultural-critical and bemoans the rubbish that is multiplied by the net and the gadgets that mediate that. i, for my part, guess, the truth is a little bit more complicated. the new ties you can establish are not only strong ties that you strengthen by technology (e.g. when i was abroad i skyped with my family) but also and predominantly weak ties that promote a kind of irresponsibility because you can enter a "community" and – that's more important – leave it whenever you want without sanctions being there. thus my research question: how can we shape icts in order to foster real communities? wolfgang http://hofkirchner.uti.at/ Am 21.07.2010 um 12:10 schrieb Pedro C. Marijuan: Dear Rafael, Bob, and FIS Colleagues Thanks a lot for the erudite comment and the elegant Latin. I quite agree about that challenging aspect. However, I keep thinking that the whole new communication technologies are adding to the decreasing "sociotype" of individuals in todays' society. Like TV in the previous generation, they provide an easy amusement but at the cost of a tighter budget in the daily time needed for socialization. Like other Anthropoids (following the "Social Brain Hypothesis") we need around 20 % of time devoted to social "grooming", to languaging, laughing etc. in a variety of social groups. Do not paying on a daily basis this evolutionary debt conduces to disappointment, frustration, depression, unhappiness... My point is that the whole ITC are bringing extra opportunities for a variety of e-contacts but at the same time are diminishing the "social grooming". This could be searched out throughout the notion of "sociotype" summarizing the connective structure around the individual, and would need specific inter-multi-cultural researches, and above all achieving more concretion around a series of indicators. Bob's very positive comments about "ascendancy" in weighed graphs are much appreciated. In next exchanges I would like to introduce some further ideas. Maybe human social networks as gauged by the sociotype could also benefit of the ascendancy approach (metrics abouts parenthood, relatives, friendships, acquaintances, etc.) Who knows. About sports and wars, I think Tom Stonier had already published in this very list about the subject (1997-98?), or was it in some FIS Proceedings? all the best Pedro Rafael Capurro escribió: Dear Pedro and all, in an article selected by the Sueddeutsche Zeitung of The New York Times of today (July 19) with the title "The Mediuim matters" (by David Brook) there is a discussion on Nicholas Carr's book "The Shalows" where he argues that theInternet is leading to a short-attention-span culture. This is apparently the old discussion internet vs. book culture but in fact the author points to an essay by Joseph Epstein in which he (Epstein) distinguishes between beeing well informed, being hip and being cultivated. The Internet culture is an egalitarian culture, appropriate for being well informed and being hip (or up to date) , while when you enter the world of books you are confronted with the "greater minds" and respecting the authority of the teacher. "The Internet culture may produce
[Fis] [Fwd: Re: Curious chronicle]
Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [Fis] Curious chronicle Fecha: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:32:39 +0200 De: Wolfgang Hofkirchner Para: Pedro C. Marijuan CC: fis@listas.unizar.es Referencias: <4c3c3ae4.8000...@aragon.es> <20100713064753.12536drvrdist...@www.cbl.umces.edu> <4c44674d.7030...@aragon.es> <4c447648.1030...@capurro.de> <4c46c7ab.2030...@aragon.es> dear pedro, what you mention here is just what bothers me since long. in the scientific literature about the internet (both empirical and kind of philosophical) there are two positions to be found: the first position is the optimistic one in which the potentialities of the new media are praised and the technical support for establishing new ties (bonds with people) are appreciated. the second position is rather cultural-critical and bemoans the rubbish that is multiplied by the net and the gadgets that mediate that. i, for my part, guess, the truth is a little bit more complicated. the new ties you can establish are not only strong ties that you strengthen by technology (e.g. when i was abroad i skyped with my family) but also and predominantly weak ties that promote a kind of irresponsibility because you can enter a "community" and – that's more important – leave it whenever you want without sanctions being there. thus my research question: how can we shape icts in order to foster real communities? wolfgang http://hofkirchner.uti.at/ Am 21.07.2010 um 12:10 schrieb Pedro C. Marijuan: Dear Rafael, Bob, and FIS Colleagues Thanks a lot for the erudite comment and the elegant Latin. I quite agree about that challenging aspect. However, I keep thinking that the whole new communication technologies are adding to the decreasing "sociotype" of individuals in todays' society. Like TV in the previous generation, they provide an easy amusement but at the cost of a tighter budget in the daily time needed for socialization. Like other Anthropoids (following the "Social Brain Hypothesis") we need around 20 % of time devoted to social "grooming", to languaging, laughing etc. in a variety of social groups. Do not paying on a daily basis this evolutionary debt conduces to disappointment, frustration, depression, unhappiness... My point is that the whole ITC are bringing extra opportunities for a variety of e-contacts but at the same time are diminishing the "social grooming". This could be searched out throughout the notion of "sociotype" summarizing the connective structure around the individual, and would need specific inter-multi-cultural researches, and above all achieving more concretion around a series of indicators. Bob's very positive comments about "ascendancy" in weighed graphs are much appreciated. In next exchanges I would like to introduce some further ideas. Maybe human social networks as gauged by the sociotype could also benefit of the ascendancy approach (metrics abouts parenthood, relatives, friendships, acquaintances, etc.) Who knows. About sports and wars, I think Tom Stonier had already published in this very list about the subject (1997-98?), or was it in some FIS Proceedings? all the best Pedro Rafael Capurro escribió: Dear Pedro and all, in an article selected by the Sueddeutsche Zeitung of The New York Times of today (July 19) with the title "The Mediuim matters" (by David Brook) there is a discussion on Nicholas Carr's book "The Shalows" where he argues that theInternet is leading to a short-attention-span culture. This is apparently the old discussion internet vs. book culture but in fact the author points to an essay by Joseph Epstein in which he (Epstein) distinguishes between beeing well informed, being hip and being cultivated. The Internet culture is an egalitarian culture, appropriate for being well informed and being hip (or up to date) , while when you enter the world of books you are confronted with the "greater minds" and respecting the authority of the teacher. "The Internet culture may produce better conversationalists, but the literary culture still produces better students". The challenge being "how to guild an Internet counterculture that will better attracht people to serious learning". We live in the culture of the spectacle (Guy Debord) which is egalitarian but what we see is the product of a highly hierarchical structure of "the best". The challenge is the how to build a counterculture within the egalitarian information society that attract people not only to serious learnig but also to high level practices in other fields such as sport, music etc. This group is an example of such a counterculture within the egalitarian internet. By the way, the Latin word "informatio" had originally the meaning of "culture" or (German) "Bildung" also in the humanistic sense. Cicero writes in "Pro Archia" (Ch.3) : "Nam, ut primum ex pueris excessit Archias atque ab iis artibus, quibus aetas puerilis ad humanitatem informari s
Re: [Fis] Curious chronicle (msg. from R. Capurro)
Mensaje original
Asunto: Re: [Fis] Curious chronicle (msg. from Jacob Lee)
Fecha: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:49:20 +0200
De: Rafael Capurro
Responder a:raf...@capurro.de
Para: Pedro C. Marijuan ,
fis@listas.unizar.es >> "fis@listas.unizar.es"
Referencias: <4c3c3ae4.8000...@aragon.es>
<20100713064753.12536drvrdist...@www.cbl.umces.edu>
<4c44674d.7030...@aragon.es>
<4c458ec2.3040...@aragon.es> <4c46bd07.6030...@aragon.es>
Dear Pedro,
remember also Ortega's famous essay "El origen deportivo del estado"
where he celebrates sport as a biological activity going beyond the
Darwinian perspective that looks at life from anutilitarian perspective
of adaptation and survival and compares it with the clown and the Greek
god Pan and his playful and luxurious cosmic activity. According to
Ortega, the evolutionary change from non-organized horde ("horda
informe") to tribal organization means giving primacy to the young men
who look for the women of other tribes and with it to war, discipline,
authority and ascetism ("askesis"=exercises and self-control). This
"young men club" is the origin of exogamy, war, autoritarian
organization, discipline, law, cultural association, dancing/carneval
and secret society! The origin of the state is neither the worker nor
the intellectual nor the priest nor the dealer but the lover, the
worrier and the sportsman. Social institutions as the "file" or the
"fratria" and the "hatairía" in Ancient Greece preceeded the
organization of the "polis" and are related to sport and war. Later in
the Roman society we get the corporation of the "salii" (meaning to
spring or dance) closely related to the god Mars, and the "con-sules" as
the ones who "dance together".
See also this short contribution by Tomás Bolano:
http://www.e-torredebabel.com/OrtegayGasset/Estudios/Bolano-ElDeporte-LujoVital.htm
And... yes, we need "social grooming" as a kind of non utilitarian and
luxurious activity probably also to de-stress the brain.
It is not clear to me when and why social complexity evolves into
chaotic complication blocking organic and social processes (such as a
foul in soccer etc.). I am sure that there are mathematical models for
this. Maybe sports and wars can be "explained" in an evolutionary way in
which humans look for forms or structures of "playing together". I know
that this terminology is morally (and socially) problematic.
best regards
Rafael
(msg. to FIS from Jacob Lee)
Richard Sipes' classic study found a direct correlation between
combative sports and violent or war-like societies:
SIPES, RICHARD G. 1973. War, Sports and Aggression: An Empirical Test of
Two Rival Theories . American Anthropologist 75, no. 1: 64-86.
doi:10.1525/aa.1973.75.1.02a00040.
Jacob
-
At 08:12 PM 19/07/2010, Stanley N Salthe wrote:
Has anyone suggested the function of contact sports to be the 'moral
equivalent' of war. Many young men requires this kind of excitement
because of their hormone mix.
Apparently societies with less contact and competitve sports also
tend to be less violent. My source: E.O. Wilson, On Human Nature,
chapter on aggression. That doesn't defeat the connection of an
alternative, though, in constitutionally more violent societies.
John
--
Professor John Collier
colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031
http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/index.html
--
Professor John Collier, Acting HoS colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031
http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/index.html
Stanley N Salthe escribió:
Has anyone suggested the function of contact sports to be the 'moral
equivalent' of war. Many young men requires this kind of excitement
because of their hormone mix.
STAN
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