[Fis] replies

2010-09-25 Thread Stanley N Salthe 
JOSEPH:  If the principle of scale hierarchy says that information flows are
not possible across scales, perhaps we need to take another look at that
principle ;-).


S: Let me be more specific; no information flows UNMEDIATED across
levels whose changes occur at different scales.  Example: molecular dynamics
register as temperature at a higher level.  Individuals and ensembles of
them ‘speak’ different ‘languages’.


If there is no exchange between the unmanifest world and the manifest one,
and change, randomness, etc. are totally different in the unmanifest world,
this might tend to confirm it. However, I feel the differences between the
two are not only of scale.


S:  I would suppose that ‘scale’ has no meaning in the unmanifest world.


GORDANA: Could it be the case that on the very fundamental level, “it” and
“bit” cannot be distinguished at all?

They simply are an “it-bit” like in Informational Structural Realism of
Floridi who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an
informational structure.

 Fluctuons being quantum-mechanical phenomena have already dual
wave-particle nature.
Why cannot they be “it-bit” as well?


 S: At the most basic level fermions can intertransform with bosons, but
this is because matter is energy in a quiet form.  Both are ‘its’.  Now, if
we take ‘bits’ to be positions of on/off switches, then they are matter as
well. The meaning of arrays of such switches arises from semiosis, which is
a triadic configuration of relations resolving some local tension, and
fulfilling as well more general tendencies like the Second Law.  Semiosis,
as pragmatic, must be ‘it’ as well.  But meaning... is an entrainment, which
affects ‘its’, presumably bosonically.

My question now is : are fluctuons physically just bosonic/fermionic
transformations?


LOET:  Shannon-type information measures only variation/uncertainty.


 S: It seems to me that uncertainty is a key aspect of materiality, of
‘itness’.

Thus, it seems to me difficult to escape from a monistic philosophy.  Yet
some -- note David Abel -- insist upon a dualist metaphysics.  His argument
boils down to the demand to demonstrate that arrangements of ‘its’s’ can
give rise to genetic information.


STAN
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Re: [Fis] The Nature of Microphysical Information: Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

2010-09-25 Thread Kevin Clark 
 than materialistic in 
principle, as Dr. Salthe and others suggest, then shouldn’t the gap between 
information and material worlds be closed to produce a more flexible, universal 
model akin to IM theory capable of making testable predictions at both reduced 
informational and extended thermodynamic degrees of freedom? It seems to me 
that 
the greatest advances in our understanding of information will come from models 
that can effectively handle concepts from purely informational (or 
mathematically idealistic) and physical perspectives – a goal that Conrad seems 
to have aspired to realize with his incomplete efforts.
 
Kevin B. Clark
 
 
REFERENCES
 
1. Conrad, M. (1996). Percolation and Collapse of Quantum Parallelism: A Model 
of Qualia and Choice. In S.R. Hameroff, A.W. Kaszniak & A.C. Scott (Eds.), 
Toward a Science of Consciousness. Cambridge: The MIT Press.
 
2. Bohm, D. (1980). Wholeness and the Implicate Order. London: Routledge & 
Kegan 
Paul.
 
3. Primitive Microbial Intelligences Expressed as Extended Computational 
Objects 
in Modern Kaluza-Klein Metric. K.B. Clark (Principal Investigator) & S.E. Krahl 
(Principal Investigator of Record). White Paper submitted to Defense Advanced 
Research Projects Agency (DARPA-BAA 07-68, Math Challenge 5), Fall 2008.
 
4. Wesson, P.S. (1999). Space-Time-Matter. Singapore: World Scientific.





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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Revisiting the Fluctuon Model (Loet Leydesdorff)
  2. Re: Revisiting the Fluctuon Model (Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic)


--

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:57:32 +0200
From: "Loet Leydesdorff" 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model
To: "'Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic'" ,
    "'Joseph Brenner'" ,    "'Stanley N Salthe'"
    , 
Message-ID: <004e01cb5c98$15020770$3f0616...@leydesdorff.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism of
Floridi who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an
informational structure.



The it-part is in the "structure" which assumes the specification of a
system of reference. 

In evolutionary terms: structure is deterministic/selective; Shannon-type
information measures only variation/uncertainty.



Best wishes,

Loet





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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:28:09 +0200
From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model
To: "raf...@capurro.de" 
Cc: "fis@listas.unizar.es" 
Message-ID:
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear Rafael,


Ø  Otherwise bits turns into digital metaphysics



Not necessarily if we take that dual nature seriously. They are both waves and 
particles.

I have also written in that sense several times, among others in

http://mdh.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:120541/FULLTEXT01


Dear Loet,



Ø  The it-part is in the "structure" which assumes the specification of a 
system 
of reference.

In evolutionary terms: structure is deterministic/selective; Shannon-type 
information measures only variation/uncertainty.



I agree with you. And complementary part "bit" comes from its dynamics.



Best,

Gordana




Best wishes,
Gordana

From: Rafael Capurro [mailto:raf...@capurro.de]
Sent: den 25 september 2010 11:55
To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Cc: Loet Leydesdorff; 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe'; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

dear Gordana

just because the bit-view of reality one possible view is. Otherwise bits turns 
into digital metaphysics.
Floridi: he is contradictory. He says/said that the infosphere is not the 
cybetspace, then yes, then no... Then he says that forms are on a "higher level 
of abstraction" that bit-forms... which is what Plato would say and said (but 
much better than Floridi), the digita

Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

2010-09-25 Thread Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic 
Dear Rafael,


Ø  Otherwise bits turns into digital metaphysics



Not necessarily if we take that dual nature seriously. They are both waves and 
particles.

I have also written in that sense several times, among others in

http://mdh.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:120541/FULLTEXT01


Dear Loet,



Ø  The it-part is in the "structure" which assumes the specification of a 
system of reference.

In evolutionary terms: structure is deterministic/selective; Shannon-type 
information measures only variation/uncertainty.



I agree with you. And complementary part "bit" comes from its dynamics.



Best,

Gordana




Best wishes,
Gordana

From: Rafael Capurro [mailto:raf...@capurro.de]
Sent: den 25 september 2010 11:55
To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Cc: Loet Leydesdorff; 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe'; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

dear Gordana

just because the bit-view of reality one possible view is. Otherwise bits turns 
into digital metaphysics.
Floridi: he is contradictory. He says/said that the infosphere is not the 
cybetspace, then yes, then no... Then he says that forms are on a "higher level 
of abstraction" that bit-forms... which is what Plato would say and said (but 
much better than Floridi), the digital infosphere being only one possibility of 
forms, then he says...

best

Rafael


Dear all,

Regarding the very interesting discussion of "it" from "bit" and vice versa.

Usually each level of information processing (semantic, algorithmic, 
implementational) presupposes some "it" in which "bit" is implemented. In 
computing, recursions must have a bottom.

Could it be the case that on the very fundamental level, "it" and "bit" cannot 
be distinguished at all?
They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism of Floridi 
who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an informational 
structure.

Fluctuons being quantum-mechanical phenomena have already dual wave-particle 
nature.
Why cannot they be "it-bit" as well?

Best,
Gordana


From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es 
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: den 25 september 2010 10:48
To: 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe'; 
fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

Dear Joe,

Please let me start by repeating my idea that fluctuons are "its", that is, 
energy in some form. If (mathematical) idealism is anti-realist, this is 
certainly not what I would consider Conrad's theory to be. Stan comes to the 
same conclusion, that fluctuons are its, but this suggests to him a 
non-materialist conception of information. This is a first place where 
something like another logic is needed that can incorporate the 
material-energetic and non-material aspects of information.

Can this issue not simply be solved by returning to Shannon's concept of 
information. Bits of information are dimensionless. In S = k(B) H, the 
Boltzmann constant provides the dimensionality.

One should not confuse this mathematical concept of information with the 
biologically inspired concept of information as "a difference which makes a 
difference" (Bateson). This is observed information by a system which can 
provide meaning to the information.

I would not call this "anti-realist", but "anti-positivist". The specification 
in the mathematical discourse remains res cogitans (as different from res 
extensa). All of physics also has this epistemological status. All other 
science, too, but sometimes positivism is ideologically prevailing.

Best wishes,
Loet


Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
l...@leydesdorff.net  ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/







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--

Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro

Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany

Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics 
(http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org)

Director, Steinbeis-Transfer-Institute Information Ethics (STI-IE), Karlsruhe, 
Germany (http://sti-ie.de)

Distinguished Researcher in Information Ethics, School of Information Studies, 
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA

President, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) 
(http://icie.zkm.de)

Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) 
(http://www.i-r-i-e.net)

Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany

E-Mail: raf...@capurro.de

Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)

Homepage: www.capurro.de
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Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

2010-09-25 Thread Loet Leydesdorff 
They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism of
Floridi who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an
informational structure.

 

The it-part is in the "structure" which assumes the specification of a
system of reference. 

In evolutionary terms: structure is deterministic/selective; Shannon-type
information measures only variation/uncertainty.

 

Best wishes,

Loet

 

 

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Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

2010-09-25 Thread Rafael Capurro 

 dear Gordana

just because the bit-view of reality one possible view is. Otherwise 
bits turns into digital metaphysics.
Floridi: he is contradictory. He says/said that the infosphere is not 
the cybetspace, then yes, then no... Then he says that forms are on a 
"higher level of abstraction" that bit-forms... which is what Plato 
would say and said (but much better than Floridi), the digital 
infosphere being only one possibility of forms, then he says...


best

Rafael


Dear all,

Regarding the very interesting discussion of "it" from "bit" and vice 
versa.


Usually each level of information processing (semantic, algorithmic, 
implementational) presupposes some "it" in which "bit" is implemented. 
In computing, recursions must have a bottom.


Could it be the case that on the very fundamental level, "it" and 
"bit" cannot be distinguished at all?


They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism 
of Floridi who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an 
informational structure.


Fluctuons being quantum-mechanical phenomena have already dual 
wave-particle nature.

Why cannot they be "it-bit" as well?

Best,

Gordana

*From:* fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es 
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Loet Leydesdorff

*Sent:* den 25 september 2010 10:48
*To:* 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe'; fis@listas.unizar.es
*Subject:* Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

Dear Joe,

Please let me start by repeating my idea that fluctuons are "its", 
that is, energy in some form. If (mathematical) idealism is 
anti-realist, this is certainly not what I would consider Conrad's 
theory to be. Stan comes to the same conclusion, that fluctuons are 
its, but this suggests to him a non-materialist conception of 
information. This is a first place where something like another logic 
is needed that can incorporate the material-energetic and non-material 
aspects of information.


Can this issue not simply be solved by returning to Shannon's concept 
of information. Bits of information are dimensionless. In S = k(B) H, 
the Boltzmann constant provides the dimensionality.


One should not confuse this mathematical concept of information with 
the biologically inspired concept of information as "a difference 
which makes a difference" (Bateson). This is observed information by a 
system which can provide meaning to the information.


I would not call this "anti-realist", but "anti-positivist". The 
specification in the mathematical discourse remains res cogitans (as 
different from res extensa). All of physics also has this 
epistemological status. All other science, too, but sometimes 
positivism is ideologically prevailing.


Best wishes,

Loet



Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
l...@leydesdorff.net ; 
http://www.leydesdorff.net/



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--
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics 
(http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org)
Director, Steinbeis-Transfer-Institute Information Ethics (STI-IE), Karlsruhe, 
Germany (http://sti-ie.de)
Distinguished Researcher in Information Ethics, School of Information Studies, 
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA
President, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) 
(http://icie.zkm.de)
Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) 
(http://www.i-r-i-e.net)
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
E-Mail: raf...@capurro.de
Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
Homepage: www.capurro.de

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Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

2010-09-25 Thread Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic 
Dear all,

Regarding the very interesting discussion of "it" from "bit" and vice versa.

Usually each level of information processing (semantic, algorithmic, 
implementational) presupposes some "it" in which "bit" is implemented. In 
computing, recursions must have a bottom.

Could it be the case that on the very fundamental level, "it" and "bit" cannot 
be distinguished at all?
They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism of Floridi 
who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an informational 
structure.

Fluctuons being quantum-mechanical phenomena have already dual wave-particle 
nature.
Why cannot they be "it-bit" as well?

Best,
Gordana


From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: den 25 september 2010 10:48
To: 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe'; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

Dear Joe,

Please let me start by repeating my idea that fluctuons are "its", that is, 
energy in some form. If (mathematical) idealism is anti-realist, this is 
certainly not what I would consider Conrad's theory to be. Stan comes to the 
same conclusion, that fluctuons are its, but this suggests to him a 
non-materialist conception of information. This is a first place where 
something like another logic is needed that can incorporate the 
material-energetic and non-material aspects of information.

Can this issue not simply be solved by returning to Shannon's concept of 
information. Bits of information are dimensionless. In S = k(B) H, the 
Boltzmann constant provides the dimensionality.

One should not confuse this mathematical concept of information with the 
biologically inspired concept of information as "a difference which makes a 
difference" (Bateson). This is observed information by a system which can 
provide meaning to the information.

I would not call this "anti-realist", but "anti-positivist". The specification 
in the mathematical discourse remains res cogitans (as different from res 
extensa). All of physics also has this epistemological status. All other 
science, too, but sometimes positivism is ideologically prevailing.

Best wishes,
Loet


Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
l...@leydesdorff.net  ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/


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Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

2010-09-25 Thread Loet Leydesdorff 
Dear Joe, 

 

Please let me start by repeating my idea that fluctuons are "its", that is,
energy in some form. If (mathematical) idealism is anti-realist, this is
certainly not what I would consider Conrad's theory to be. Stan comes to the
same conclusion, that fluctuons are its, but this suggests to him a
non-materialist conception of information. This is a first place where
something like another logic is needed that can incorporate the
material-energetic and non-material aspects of information.

 

Can this issue not simply be solved by returning to Shannon's concept of
information. Bits of information are dimensionless. In S = k(B) H, the
Boltzmann constant provides the dimensionality. 

 

One should not confuse this mathematical concept of information with the
biologically inspired concept of information as "a difference which makes a
difference" (Bateson). This is observed information by a system which can
provide meaning to the information. 

 

I would not call this "anti-realist", but "anti-positivist". The
specification in the mathematical discourse remains res cogitans (as
different from res extensa). All of physics also has this epistemological
status. All other science, too, but sometimes positivism is ideologically
prevailing. 

 

Best wishes, 

Loet

 

  _  

Loet Leydesdorff 
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), 
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. 
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
  l...@leydesdorff.net ;
 http://www.leydesdorff.net/ 

 

 

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