Re: [Fis] mind-mind
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-11-01 07:25 PM, Sungchul Ji wrote: > Hi Michell and FISers, > > > "*Data* is that what we see by using the *eyes*. *Information* is > that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the > *brain*; because it is the background to that what we see by using > the eyes." > Hi Sung I see this is a common theme here. I generally agree, but would prefer to use noise and connotation here. the eye receives noise, it is refined along the neuro-nets, until at some higher level it receives a connotation. While some input may be a round red gradient, the neuronet will find edges and the higher nets connotation maybe red ball. Would you agree that an independent clause is the atom of information? So getting back to the topic, of dialogue or mind-mind. An expressed independent clause (whether as an image, language, or performance), is the fundamental atoms with which we communicate. The expression is itself noise, but with a sufficiently similar receiver, it can be parsed back into an independent clause. Certain concepts, like definitions, may require multiple independent-clauses to support them, making a molecule of information. > > If you have any question or comments, let me know. > > > Sung > > > > > > f g (*eyes/brain*) > > Reality > Sign ---> Interpretant > > | (*Data*) ^ > > | | > > > |__| > > h (information) > > > Figure 1.f = measurement or *eyes*; g = mental process or > *brain; h = correspondence or *information flow > > > > > > ---------- - -- > > *From:* Fis on behalf of Michel Petitjean > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017 > 5:29 PM *To:* fis *Subject:* Re: [Fis] mind-mind > > Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All, > > I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly > from Mind to Mind. Being a materialist, I consider that only matter > exists. Does it mean that information is matter or energy? No. Let > me discuss about this contradiction. Parenthesis: energy is linked > to mass through math modeling of physical laws, and mass is a > property of matter (could also be linked to a modeling concept, but > it is unimportant here). People (not only scientists) build math > and non math models to attempt to explain what they observe. Would > you consider that math is matter? Probably no. Thus math and non > math models that we build in our heads are not matter. However they > are produced through some biochemical process, and as such they > originate from matter. Eventually, it could be considered that math > and other concepts are a somewhat special part of matter, but I > think that claim would not be accepted in our current language(s). > I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in > our heads. In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not > worse. Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as > believers do not impose to me the consequences of their beliefs. > Religious beliefs must be private affairs. Here, please accept my > apologies if some of you are shocked by the previous sentences. > > Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some > situations. However, I do not claim that information can be reduced > to the math concepts of information. > > To conclude: > > 1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro. > > 2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am > a poor philosopher. Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be > able to elaborate a coherent theory about life, consciousness , > etc. May be it is impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc. > All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss > information and so on. > > 3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain > the one of Karl. Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017: "Data > is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we > do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; > because it is the background to that what we see by using the > eyes." > > All my best, > > Michel. > > Michel Petitjean MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7, 35 rue > Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France. Phone: +331 5727 8434; > Fax: +331 5727 8372 E-mail: petitjean.chi...@gmail.com > (preferred), michel.petitj...@univ-paris-diderot.fr > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpetitj eanmichel.free.fr%2Fitoweb.petitjea
Re: [Fis] mind-mind
There are too many deep unanswered questions here for our current state of discourse and awareness to dismiss if we wish to remain scientific. The history of science is marked by scientific incredulity at things which turn out to be true. We need a logic and we need experiments. Joseph Brenner and others have been working on the logic (I need time to follow this up... By logical spirals may be correct - it ties with Peter Rowland's work on Quaternions that I mentioned) Experiments? - well, Sheldrake is a much better scientist than many of his critics: He is fueled by curiosity for the unknown, not the "we're pretty sure we know, but we'd better check anyway" (and then we can publish in Nature!) There's a great TV comedy in the UK at the moment called "Quacks" about 19th century medicine. It features a dentist who is taking lots of drugs partly because he's interested in what they do, and also because it's fun. He keeps a log of his experiences. All the medical professionals, who consider themselves rational scientists, see him as mad and irresponsible. Guess what... So, there are questions about our current dogma. What do we mean by matter? Do cells communicate? Could cells communicate at a distance? What might "communication" mean? Is it symmetry? Best wishes, Mark -Original Message- From: "Sungchul Ji" Sent: 01/11/2017 23:27 To: "Michel Petitjean" ; "fis" Subject: Re: [Fis] mind-mind Hi Michell and FISers, "Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes." This paragraph contains the following pairs or relations: Data ~ eyes Information ~ brain Since eyes cannot function without the brain but the brain can without eyes, I wonder if the above tetrad can be reduced to a triad: Data ~ eyes/brain ~ information which in turn may be explained in more detail using the ITR (Irreducible Triadic Relation) diagram thus: f g (eyes/brain) Reality --> Sign --> Interpretant |(Data) ^ | | |___| h (information) Figure 1. The data-information relation explained on the basis of ITR (Irreudicible Triadic Relation). The arrows read "determines" and "interpretant is the effect the sign has on the mind of the interpreter (biotic or abiotic). f = measurement; g = mental process ; h = correspondence or information flow. If you have any question or comments, let me know. Sung f g (eyes/brain) Reality > Sign ---> Interpretant | (Data) ^ | | |__| h (information) Figure 1.f = measurement or eyes; g = mental process or brain; h = correspondence or information flow From: Fis on behalf of Michel Petitjean Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 5:29 PM To: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] mind-mind Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All, I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind. Being a materialist, I consider that only matter exists. Does it mean that information is matter or energy? No. Let me discuss about this contradiction. Parenthesis: energy is linked to mass through math modeling of physical laws, and mass is a property of matter (could also be linked to a modeling concept, but it is unimportant here). People (not only scientists) build math and non math models to attempt to explain what they observe. Would you consider that math is matter? Probably no. Thus math and non math models that we build in our heads are not matter. However they are produced through some biochemical process, and as such they originate from matter. Eventually, it could be considered that math and other concepts are a somewhat special part of matter, but I think that claim would not be accepted in our current language(s). I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in our
Re: [Fis] mind-mind
Cari Tutti, la distinzione tra materialisti e idealisti, corpo e anima (o spirito), materia e energia è interfacciata o intermediata dall'informazione. L'informazione è indispensabile per la conoscenza di tutto ciò che costituisce la realtà dell'esistenza o l'esistenza della realtà del mondo. Se ciò è vero la materia è un modo o una forma di essere dell'energia e l'energia è un modo o una forma di essere della materia. Se la conoscenza di questo mondo è costituita dall'informazione tutto è quantizzato in bit. Ma i bit non bastano. Bisogna andare oltre la comunicazione di Shannon inventando una teoria che consideri l'informazione come il concetto fondamentale, non solo della fisica, ma anche dell'economia, etc. Nella materia l'energia prende una forma particolare, come nell'energia la materia prende una forma particolare. Un bene economico è contemporaneamente o alternativamente un essere merce (materiale) e un essere segno (immateriale) o moneta. Quindi la realtà economica è ad un tempo liquida e illiquida, monetaria o non monetaria.Si tratta quindi di "modellizzare" l'intreccio o complementarità o compenetrazione o entanglement degli elementi che costituiscono la realtà della vita o la vita della realtà. I dati o le idee diventano fatti quando le loro forme significano qualcosa che diventa oggetto di comunicazione. In conclusione la nostra mente, con la collaborazione di tutti gli organi del nostro corpo, fornisce l'informazione ad-atta e ad-attabile per comunicare con gli altri, perchè comunicando si vive, non vivendo si comunica. In estrema sintesi, senza scadere in ragionamenti cervellotici, per informazione si deve intendere un'azione o processo che consente di dare forma alle persone (non agli individui) e a tutti gli altri esseri viventi (animalii e vegetali), alle idee e alle cose. Mentre dis-informazione è un'azione o un processo contrario al prendere forma, ma significa perdere o degradare la forma. Un saluto cordiale espresso senza alcuna presunzione o arroganza. Il miglior modo per comunicare è rispettare tutti, anche quelli che la pensano e la dicono diversamente da noi. Francesco Rizzo 2017-11-02 0:25 GMT+01:00 Sungchul Ji : > Hi Michell and FISers, > > > "*Data* is that what we see by using the *eyes*. *Information* is that > what > we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the *brain*; > because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes." > > > This paragraph contains the following pairs or relations: > > > Data ~ eyes > > Information ~ brain > > > Since eyes cannot function without the brain but the brain can without > eyes, I wonder if the above tetrad can be reduced to a triad: > > > Data ~ eyes/brain ~ information > > > which in turn may be explained in more detail using the ITR (Irreducible > Triadic Relation) diagram thus: > > > >f > g (*eyes/brain*) > >Reality --> Sign > --> Interpretant > > |(*Data*) > ^ > > | > | > > |___ > | > >h (*information*) > > > > *Figure 1. * The *data-information relation* explained on the basis of > ITR (Irreudicible Triadic Relation). The arrows read "determines" and > "interpretant is the effect the sign has on the mind of the interpreter > (biotic or abiotic). f = measurement; g = mental process *; *h = > correspondence or information flow. > > > > > If you have any question or comments, let me know. > > > Sung > > > > > >f g ( > *eyes/brain*) > > Reality > Sign ---> > Interpretant > >| (*Data*) >^ > >| > | > >| > __| > > h (information) > > > Figure 1.f = measurement or *eyes*; g = mental process or *brain; h > = correspondence or *information flow > > > > > > -- > *From:* Fis on behalf of Michel Petitjean < > petitjean.chi...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Wednesd
Re: [Fis] mind-mind
Hi Michell and FISers, "Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes." This paragraph contains the following pairs or relations: Data ~ eyes Information ~ brain Since eyes cannot function without the brain but the brain can without eyes, I wonder if the above tetrad can be reduced to a triad: Data ~ eyes/brain ~ information which in turn may be explained in more detail using the ITR (Irreducible Triadic Relation) diagram thus: f g (eyes/brain) Reality --> Sign --> Interpretant |(Data) ^ | | |___| h (information) Figure 1. The data-information relation explained on the basis of ITR (Irreudicible Triadic Relation). The arrows read "determines" and "interpretant is the effect the sign has on the mind of the interpreter (biotic or abiotic). f = measurement; g = mental process ; h = correspondence or information flow. If you have any question or comments, let me know. Sung f g (eyes/brain) Reality > Sign ---> Interpretant | (Data) ^ | | |__| h (information) Figure 1.f = measurement or eyes; g = mental process or brain; h = correspondence or information flow From: Fis on behalf of Michel Petitjean Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 5:29 PM To: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] mind-mind Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All, I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind. Being a materialist, I consider that only matter exists. Does it mean that information is matter or energy? No. Let me discuss about this contradiction. Parenthesis: energy is linked to mass through math modeling of physical laws, and mass is a property of matter (could also be linked to a modeling concept, but it is unimportant here). People (not only scientists) build math and non math models to attempt to explain what they observe. Would you consider that math is matter? Probably no. Thus math and non math models that we build in our heads are not matter. However they are produced through some biochemical process, and as such they originate from matter. Eventually, it could be considered that math and other concepts are a somewhat special part of matter, but I think that claim would not be accepted in our current language(s). I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in our heads. In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not worse. Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as believers do not impose to me the consequences of their beliefs. Religious beliefs must be private affairs. Here, please accept my apologies if some of you are shocked by the previous sentences. Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some situations. However, I do not claim that information can be reduced to the math concepts of information. To conclude: 1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro. 2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am a poor philosopher. Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be able to elaborate a coherent theory about life, consciousness , etc. May be it is impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc. All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss information and so on. 3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain the one of Karl. Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017: "Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes." All my best, Michel. Michel Petitjean MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7, 35 rue Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France. Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372 E-mail: petitjean.chi...@gmail.com (preferred), michel.petitj...@univ-p
Re: [Fis] mind-mind
mind to mind experiments have been done in the field of brain-machine interface since 2014. see: http://www.washington.edu/news/2014/11/05/uw-study-shows-direct-brain-interface-between-humans/ -- Howard Bloom Howardbloom.net author of : The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker), The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("Impressive, stimulating, and tremendously enjoyable."James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic), The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich), How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“a monumental,epic, glorious literary achievement.” Timothy Leary), and The Muhammad Code: How a Desert Prophet Gave You ISIS, al Qaeda, and Boko Haram--or How Muhammad Invented Jihad ( “a terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam,” David Swindle, PJ Media). Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Former Visiting Scholar —Graduate Psychology Department, NewYork University co-founder: and chair, Asian Space Technology Summit; founder International Paleopsychology Project; founder and chair, Space Development Steering Committee; Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society; Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project; Board Of Governors, National Space Society; Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, International Society for Human Ethology, Scientific Advisory Board Member, Lifeboat Foundation. Editorial board member, Journal of Space Philosophy. International Advisory Board Member, Knowledge Futures:Interdisciplinary Journal of Futures Studies. In a message dated 11/1/2017 8:13:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mar...@foibg.com writes: Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues, Thank you for the nice remark. I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in any experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place in such experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific issues about this very interesting phenomenon. Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you use FIS List to send your ideas to us? Friendly greetings Krassimir PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I please to excuse me for answering the next posts after week. From: Alex Hankey Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM To: Krassimir Markov Cc: FIS Webinar Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy. M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in Rupert Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication. Lots of Quantitative Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore. The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such Information States Are Not Material Entities. They are based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons. The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this phenomenon becomes one of Four Separate Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support of them. Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy. This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be supported. ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] mind-mind
Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All, I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind. Being a materialist, I consider that only matter exists. Does it mean that information is matter or energy? No. Let me discuss about this contradiction. Parenthesis: energy is linked to mass through math modeling of physical laws, and mass is a property of matter (could also be linked to a modeling concept, but it is unimportant here). People (not only scientists) build math and non math models to attempt to explain what they observe. Would you consider that math is matter? Probably no. Thus math and non math models that we build in our heads are not matter. However they are produced through some biochemical process, and as such they originate from matter. Eventually, it could be considered that math and other concepts are a somewhat special part of matter, but I think that claim would not be accepted in our current language(s). I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in our heads. In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not worse. Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as believers do not impose to me the consequences of their beliefs. Religious beliefs must be private affairs. Here, please accept my apologies if some of you are shocked by the previous sentences. Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some situations. However, I do not claim that information can be reduced to the math concepts of information. To conclude: 1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro. 2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am a poor philosopher. Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be able to elaborate a coherent theory about life, consciousness , etc. May be it is impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc. All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss information and so on. 3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain the one of Karl. Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017: "Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes." All my best, Michel. Michel Petitjean MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7, 35 rue Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France. Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372 E-mail: petitjean.chi...@gmail.com (preferred), michel.petitj...@univ-paris-diderot.fr http://petitjeanmichel.free.fr/itoweb.petitjean.html > Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues, > > Thank you for the nice remark. > > I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in any > experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place in such > experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific issues about > this very interesting phenomenon. > > Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you use > FIS List to send your ideas to us? > > Friendly greetings > Krassimir > > PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I please to > excuse me for answering the next posts after week. > > > > From: Alex Hankey > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM > To: Krassimir Markov > Cc: FIS Webinar > Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles > > RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy. > > M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every > reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are > information. > > ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in Rupert > Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication. > Lots of Quantitative Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore. > > The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such > Information States Are Not Material Entities. > They are based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons. > > The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this phenomenon > becomes one of Four Separate Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support > of them. > > Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy. > > This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be supported. ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
[Fis] mind-mind
Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues, Thank you for the nice remark. I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in any experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place in such experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific issues about this very interesting phenomenon. Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you use FIS List to send your ideas to us? Friendly greetings Krassimir PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I please to excuse me for answering the next posts after week. From: Alex Hankey Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM To: Krassimir Markov Cc: FIS Webinar Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy. M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in Rupert Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication. Lots of Quantitative Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore. The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such Information States Are Not Material Entities. They are based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons. The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this phenomenon becomes one of Four Separate Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support of them. Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy. This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be supported. ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis