Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[joe.bren...@bluewin.ch]

Dear Stan and Bob,

I am absolutely delighted to learn that you both had felt the need to 
"complexify" the concept of "self"-organization. I would very much welcome more 
on the dialectical approach that you have used, as I think it might have, in my 
framework, further applications. These might be in the area of information, of 
general interest to this group, but also others.

Will you gratify my curiosity?

Best wishes,

Joseph 




Message d'origine
De: u...@cbl.umces.edu
Date: 23.01.2009 22:54
À: "Stanley Salthe"
Copie: 
Objet: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

Quoting "Stanley Salthe" :

> Joseph --
>
>> Dear Friends,
>> -snip-
>>
>> 1."But the good thing is to be able to go down to elementary  
>> particle level with the same principle." My  Logic in Reality does  
>> exactly that, where the principle is one of dynamic opposition  
>> which has the advantage of avoiding what I consider questionable,  
>> namely, so-called "self"-organization.
>
>  Cannot self-organization not be interpreted in a dialectical  
> way?  I tried it in my 1993 book, Development and Evolution.

Stan,

Right you are! I took the same approach in my 1997 book, "Ecology, the  
Ascendent Perspective.".

The best,
Bob

-
Robert E. Ulanowicz|  Tel: +1-352-378-7355
Arthur R. Marshall Laboratory  |  FAX: +1-352-392-3704
Department of Botany and Zoology   |  Emeritus, Chesapeake Biol. Lab
Bartram Hall 110   |  University of Maryland
University of Florida  |  Email 
Gainesville, FL 32611-8525 USA |  Web <http://www.cbl.umces.edu/~ulan>
--


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fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Robert Ulanowicz]

Quoting "Stanley Salthe" :

> Joseph --
>
>> Dear Friends,
>> -snip-
>>
>> 1."But the good thing is to be able to go down to elementary  
>> particle level with the same principle." My  Logic in Reality does  
>> exactly that, where the principle is one of dynamic opposition  
>> which has the advantage of avoiding what I consider questionable,  
>> namely, so-called "self"-organization.
>
>  Cannot self-organization not be interpreted in a dialectical  
> way?  I tried it in my 1993 book, Development and Evolution.

Stan,

Right you are! I took the same approach in my 1997 book, "Ecology, the  
Ascendent Perspective.".

The best,
Bob

-
Robert E. Ulanowicz|  Tel: +1-352-378-7355
Arthur R. Marshall Laboratory  |  FAX: +1-352-392-3704
Department of Botany and Zoology   |  Emeritus, Chesapeake Biol. Lab
Bartram Hall 110   |  University of Maryland
University of Florida  |  Email 
Gainesville, FL 32611-8525 USA |  Web 
--


___
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Stanley Salthe]

Joseph --


Dear Friends,
-snip-

1."But the good thing is to be able to go down 
to elementary particle level with the same 
principle." My  Logic in Reality does exactly 
that, where the principle is one of dynamic 
opposition which has the advantage of avoiding 
what I consider questionable, namely, so-called 
"self"-organization.


 Cannot self-organization not be interpreted 
in a dialectical way?  I tried it in my 1993 
book, Development and Evolution.


STAN



2. It is  fascinating, and I think important, 
that there seems to be a felt need for more 
unification in knowledge, and such approaches as 
"Coordination Dynamics" (and Logic in Reality??) 
are expressions of this.


3. Having said that, what I read about 
Coordination Dynamics in the postings to date, 
frankly, leaves me cold. The "entities" involved 
in the exchanges of information seem to lack 
reality, and Pedro quotes one to me doubtful 
characteristic of this system as involving 
"informational quantities that transcend 
(emphasis mine) the medium. I worry as soon as 
one starts separating things. If information is 
energy and has meaning, it is in a dynamic 
relation to the medium.

Where is the Kaufmann-Logan information in Coordination Dynamics?

Best wishes,

Joseph

Message d'origine
De: gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se
Date: 16.01.2009 20:48
À: "l...@leydesdorff.net", 
"'Pedro C. 
Marijuan'", 
"fis"

Objet: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

Dear Loet,



I agree with you.

The goal is not to reduce everything to physics 
and to stay at elementary particle level.


But the good thing is to be able to go down to 
elementary particle level with the same 
principle.


How to build up understanding of the whole 
architecture of existing things, physical 
objects (including biological ones),


minds, societies - is a question of complex 
systems and those all seem to be organized via 
exchange of information.


Best regards,

Gordana









From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es 
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf 
Of Loet Leydesdorff

Sent: den 16 januari 2009 19:47
To: 'Pedro C. Marijuan'; 'fis'
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?



Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues,



That would be unfortunate because a reduction of 
the information-theoretical approach to physics 
unnecessarily sacrifices explanatory power. (As 
would by the way, a reduction to biology or any 
other substantive theory.) At issue is --as you 
correctly note-- the autopoiesis model itself 
which allows for coordination at different 
systems level. The formalisms allow us to move 
from one level to another heuristically, and 
thus to specify if necessary counter-intuitively.




For example, the market can be considered as a 
social coordination system with its own 
dynamics. The coordination with other 
coordination mechanisms by various forms of 
couplings can also be studied using the 
information-theoretical approach because the 
expected information content of a distribution 
is yet content-free. The specification of a 
system of reference provides the (Shannon-type) 
information with meaning. For example, when H is 
multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the 
entropy is expressed in Joule/Kelvin and physics 
is the system of reference. However, this is a 
special case. Joule and degrees have no clear 
meaning in the case of the operation of the 
market as a coordination mechanism.




Best wishes,





Loet








Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681
<mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net>l...@leydesdorff.net 
; 
<http://www.leydesdorff.net/>http://www.leydesdorff.net/







From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es 
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf 
Of Pedro C. Marijuan

Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

Dear Gordana and Loet,

This is what the editors of the book literally say:

"The third main idea is that Coordination 
Dynamics deals with informational quantities 
that transcend the medium through which the 
parts communicate. Evidence shows that things 
may be coupled by mechanical forces, by light, 
by sound, by smell, by touch and by intention. 
In Coordination Dynamics, "binding" or coupling 
is mediated by information, not --or not only-- 
by conventional forces. Such information may not 
only be of a material but also of a structural 
or topological nature. It may cause qualitative 
changes in the dynamics of the coordinating 
parts and new states to emerge. Hence, "bound" 
coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are 
informational, and information that changes 
bound states is "meaningful" to the system." 
(Preface, p. IX)



I agree with Gordana that it may support a 
pan-physicalist 

Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Stanley Salthe]

Folks --


Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues,

That would be unfortunate because a reduction of the 
information-theoretical approach to physics unnecessarily sacrifices 
explanatory power. (As would by the way, a reduction to biology or 
any other substantive theory.) At issue is --as you correctly note-- 
the autopoiesis model itself which allows for coordination at 
different systems level. The formalisms allow us to move from one 
level to another heuristically, and thus to specify if necessary 
counter-intuitively.


 In regard to the levels here, as in {physical dynamics {chemical 
connectivities {biological forms {sociocultural organizations, if 
one reduces, say, a social event, to the physical level, that higher 
level in fact would not disappear.  What the higher levels 
accomplish, when viewed from the lowest level, is to generate 
patterns of lower level entities / activities.  In order to keep 
track of lower level entities that are being entrained by higher 
level activities, the simplest choice would be to observe the higher 
level transactions themselves.  Notice that I am not suggesting that 
we can forget about the lower levels and just focus upon the higher.




For example, the market can be considered as a social coordination 
system with its own dynamics. The coordination with other 
coordination mechanisms by various forms of couplings can also be 
studied using the information-theoretical approach because the 
expected information content of a distribution is yet content-free. 
The specification of a system of reference provides the 
(Shannon-type) information with meaning. For example, when H is 
multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the entropy is expressed in 
Joule/Kelvin and physics is the system of reference. However, this 
is a special case. Joule and degrees have no clear meaning in the 
case of the operation of the market as a coordination mechanism.


 But the economic generation of patterns of joule transactions 
can have meaning enough.  For example, it has been suggested to 
capture solar energy in the Sahara and to take it north for use in 
Europe.  A dispute about this arose when some folks argued that the 
result concerning the energy balance of the earth was negligable. 
But others argued that there would be a significant increase in heat 
pollution in Europe by doing this instead of allowing the the solar 
heat to dissipate from the deserts at night.  It is the pattern of 
solar energy dissipation that would altered by this economic 
arrangement, but we still need to know that it is molecular motion 
that holds the facts about dissipation.




Best wishes,


Loet




Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681
<mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net>l...@leydesdorff.net ; 
<http://www.leydesdorff.net/>http://www.leydesdorff.net/





From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es 
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan

Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

Dear Gordana and Loet,

This is what the editors of the book literally say:

"The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with 
informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the 
parts communicate. Evidence shows that things may be coupled by 
mechanical forces, by light, by sound, by smell, by touch and by 
intention. In Coordination Dynamics, "binding" or coupling is 
mediated by information, not --or not only-- by conventional forces. 
Such information may not only be of a material but also of a 
structural or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes 
in the dynamics of the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. 
Hence, "bound" coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are 
informational, and information that changes bound states is 
"meaningful" to the system." (Preface, p. IX)



I agree with Gordana that it may support a pan-physicalist approach 
to information, and vice versa, a pan-informationalist approach to 
physics too. Besides, the ongoing conceptualization of meaning looks 
rather meager. From my view, another important objection to the "8 
main ideas" is the absence of any reference to self-production (very 
different from self-organization!); the life-cycle notion is also 
missing...


Linking with the discussion that Michel started weeks ago, rather 
than situating a similar recollection of main ideas about the term 
"information", it could be  more interesting putting into question 
what it means "being informational". Say, the adjective as more 
holistic than the name. The whole process around the message 
(generation & needs, coding, emission, transmission, reception, 
decoding, interpretation, action...) becomes the natural universe of 
information science, rathe

Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Stanley Salthe]

Folks --


Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues,

That would be unfortunate because a reduction of the 
information-theoretical approach to physics unnecessarily sacrifices 
explanatory power. (As would by the way, a reduction to biology or 
any other substantive theory.) At issue is --as you correctly note-- 
the autopoiesis model itself which allows for coordination at 
different systems level. The formalisms allow us to move from one 
level to another heuristically, and thus to specify if necessary 
counter-intuitively.


 In regard to the levels here, as in {physical dynamics {chemical 
connectivities {biological forms {sociocultural organizations, if 
one reduces, say, a social event, to the physical level, that higher 
level in fact would not disappear.  What the higher levels 
accomplish, when viewed from the lowest level, is to generate 
patterns of lower level entities / activities.  In order to keep 
track of lower level entities that are being entrained by higher 
level activities, the simplest choice would be to observe the higher 
level transactions themselves.  Notice that I am not suggesting that 
we can forget about the lower levels and just focus upon the higher.




For example, the market can be considered as a social coordination 
system with its own dynamics. The coordination with other 
coordination mechanisms by various forms of couplings can also be 
studied using the information-theoretical approach because the 
expected information content of a distribution is yet content-free. 
The specification of a system of reference provides the 
(Shannon-type) information with meaning. For example, when H is 
multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the entropy is expressed in 
Joule/Kelvin and physics is the system of reference. However, this 
is a special case. Joule and degrees have no clear meaning in the 
case of the operation of the market as a coordination mechanism.


 But the economic generation of patterns of joule transactions 
can have meaning enough.  For example, it has been suggested to 
capture solar energy in the Sahara and to take it north for use in 
Europe.  A dispute about this arose when some folks argued that the 
result concerning the energy balance of the earth was negligable. 
But others argued that there would be a significant increase in heat 
pollution in Europe by doing this instead of allowing the the solar 
heat to dissipate from the deserts at night.  It is the pattern of 
solar energy dissipation that would altered by this economic 
arrangement, but we still need to know that it is molecular motion 
that holds the facts about dissipation.




Best wishes,


Loet




Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681
<mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net>l...@leydesdorff.net ; 
<http://www.leydesdorff.net/>http://www.leydesdorff.net/





From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es 
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan

Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

Dear Gordana and Loet,

This is what the editors of the book literally say:

"The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with 
informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the 
parts communicate. Evidence shows that things may be coupled by 
mechanical forces, by light, by sound, by smell, by touch and by 
intention. In Coordination Dynamics, "binding" or coupling is 
mediated by information, not --or not only-- by conventional forces. 
Such information may not only be of a material but also of a 
structural or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes 
in the dynamics of the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. 
Hence, "bound" coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are 
informational, and information that changes bound states is 
"meaningful" to the system." (Preface, p. IX)



I agree with Gordana that it may support a pan-physicalist approach 
to information, and vice versa, a pan-informationalist approach to 
physics too. Besides, the ongoing conceptualization of meaning looks 
rather meager. From my view, another important objection to the "8 
main ideas" is the absence of any reference to self-production (very 
different from self-organization!); the life-cycle notion is also 
missing...


Linking with the discussion that Michel started weeks ago, rather 
than situating a similar recollection of main ideas about the term 
"information", it could be  more interesting putting into question 
what it means "being informational". Say, the adjective as more 
holistic than the name. The whole process around the message 
(generation & needs, coding, emission, transmission, reception, 
decoding, interpretation, action...) becomes the natural universe of 
information science, rathe

Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[joe.bren...@bluewin.ch]

Dear Friends,

I have been "in transit" between home in Switzerland and  California where my 
wife and I spend the winter and thus have just  now looked at this "emerging 
exchange".  It obviously requires more study, but three things jump out at me:

1."But the good thing is to be able to go down to elementary
particle level with the same principle." My  Logic in Reality does exactly 
that, where the principle is one of dynamic opposition which has the advantage 
of avoiding what I consider questionable, namely, so-called "self"-organization.

2. It is  fascinating, and I think important, that there seems to be a felt 
need for more unification in knowledge, and such approaches as "Coordination 
Dynamics" (and Logic in Reality??) are expressions of this.

3. Having said that, what I read about Coordination Dynamics in the postings to 
date, frankly, leaves me cold. The "entities" involved in the exchanges of 
information seem to lack reality, and Pedro quotes one to me doubtful 
characteristic of this system as involving "informational quantities that 
transcend (emphasis mine) the medium. I worry as soon as one starts separating 
things. If information is energy and has meaning, it is in a dynamic relation 
to the medium.
Where is the Kaufmann-Logan information in Coordination Dynamics?

Best wishes,

Joseph



Message d'origine

De: gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se

Date: 16.01.2009 20:48

À: "l...@leydesdorff.net", "'Pedro C. 
Marijuan'", "fis"

Objet: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?





v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}











-->

Dear Loet, 
 
I agree with you.
The goal is not to reduce everything to physics and to stay at
elementary particle level.
But the good thing is to be able to go down to elementary
particle level with the same principle.
How to build up understanding of the whole architecture of
existing things, physical objects (including biological ones),
minds, societies – is a question of complex systems and those
all seem to be organized via exchange of information.
Best regards,
Gordana
 
 
 
 


From:
fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf
Of Loet Leydesdorff

Sent: den 16 januari 2009 19:47

To: 'Pedro C. Marijuan'; 'fis'

Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?


 
Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues, 
 
That would be unfortunate because a reduction of the
information-theoretical approach to physics unnecessarily sacrifices
explanatory power. (As would by the way, a reduction to biology or any other
substantive theory.) At issue is --as you correctly note-- the autopoiesis
model itself which allows for coordination at different systems level. The
formalisms allow us to move from one level to another heuristically, and thus
to specify if necessary counter-intuitively.
 
For example, the market can be considered as a social coordination
system with its own dynamics. The coordination with other coordination
mechanisms by various forms of couplings can also be studied using the
information-theoretical approach because the expected information content of a
distribution is yet content-free. The specification of a system of reference
provides the (Shannon-type) information with meaning. For example, when H is
multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the entropy is expressed in
Joule/Kelvin and physics is the system of reference. However, this is a special
case. Joule and degrees have no clear meaning in the case of the operation of
the market as a coordination mechanism.
 
Best wishes, 
 
 
Loet
 
 

 




Loet Leydesdorff 

Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), 

Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. 

Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681 

l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/

 


 



From:
fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf
Of Pedro C. Marijuan

Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM

To: fis

Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?
Dear Gordana and Loet,



This is what the editors of the book literally say: 



"The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with
informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the parts
communicate. Evidence shows that things may be coupled by mechanical forces, by
light, by sound, by smell, by touch and by intention. In Coordination Dynamics,
"binding" or coupling is mediated by information, not --or not only--
by conventional forces. Such information may not only be of a material but also
of a structural or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes in the
dynamics of the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. Hence,
"bound" coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are
informational, and information that changes bo

Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic]

Dear Loet,

I agree with you.
The goal is not to reduce everything to physics and to stay at elementary 
particle level.
But the good thing is to be able to go down to elementary particle level with 
the same principle.
How to build up understanding of the whole architecture of existing things, 
physical objects (including biological ones),
minds, societies - is a question of complex systems and those all seem to be 
organized via exchange of information.
Best regards,
Gordana




From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: den 16 januari 2009 19:47
To: 'Pedro C. Marijuan'; 'fis'
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues,

That would be unfortunate because a reduction of the information-theoretical 
approach to physics unnecessarily sacrifices explanatory power. (As would by 
the way, a reduction to biology or any other substantive theory.) At issue is 
--as you correctly note-- the autopoiesis model itself which allows for 
coordination at different systems level. The formalisms allow us to move from 
one level to another heuristically, and thus to specify if necessary 
counter-intuitively.

For example, the market can be considered as a social coordination system with 
its own dynamics. The coordination with other coordination mechanisms by 
various forms of couplings can also be studied using the 
information-theoretical approach because the expected information content of a 
distribution is yet content-free. The specification of a system of reference 
provides the (Shannon-type) information with meaning. For example, when H is 
multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the entropy is expressed in 
Joule/Kelvin and physics is the system of reference. However, this is a special 
case. Joule and degrees have no clear meaning in the case of the operation of 
the market as a coordination mechanism.

Best wishes,


Loet




Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681
l...@leydesdorff.net <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net> ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/



From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?
Dear Gordana and Loet,

This is what the editors of the book literally say:

"The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with informational 
quantities that transcend the medium through which the parts communicate. 
Evidence shows that things may be coupled by mechanical forces, by light, by 
sound, by smell, by touch and by intention. In Coordination Dynamics, "binding" 
or coupling is mediated by information, not --or not only-- by conventional 
forces. Such information may not only be of a material but also of a structural 
or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes in the dynamics of the 
coordinating parts and new states to emerge. Hence, "bound" coordinative states 
in Coordination Dynamics are informational, and information that changes bound 
states is "meaningful" to the system." (Preface, p. IX)


I agree with Gordana that it may support a pan-physicalist approach to 
information, and vice versa, a pan-informationalist approach to physics too. 
Besides, the ongoing conceptualization of meaning looks rather meager. From my 
view, another important objection to the "8 main ideas" is the absence of any 
reference to self-production (very different from self-organization!); the 
life-cycle notion is also missing...

Linking with the discussion that Michel started weeks ago, rather than 
situating a similar recollection of main ideas about the term "information", it 
could be  more interesting putting into question what it means "being 
informational". Say, the adjective as more holistic than the name. The whole 
process around the message (generation & needs, coding, emission, transmission, 
reception, decoding, interpretation, action...) becomes the natural universe of 
information science, rather than the focus on any single conceptual item 
(wherever we may be willing to situate "information"). Curiously, 
"informational" in English & in Spanish does not exist (only "informative", I 
think, but it means something completely different). What "informational" would 
be indicating, roughly, is that an entity self-constructs itself through the 
coupling of inner and environmental signals... as happens with cells, 
organisms, enterprises, etc.

best regards

Pedro



"3.  Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with "informational

quantities" that transcend the medium through which the parts

communicate. The &qu

Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Stanley Salthe]

Pedro --


Dear Gordana and Loet,

This is what the editors of the book literally say:

"The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with 
informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the 
parts communicate. Evidence shows that things may be coupled by 
mechanical forces, by light, by sound, by smell, by touch and by 
intention. In Coordination Dynamics, "binding" or coupling is 
mediated by information, not --or not only-- by conventional forces. 
Such information may not only be of a material but also of a 
structural or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes 
in the dynamics of the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. 
Hence, "bound" coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are 
informational, and information that changes bound states is 
"meaningful" to the system." (Preface, p. IX)



I agree with Gordana that it may support a pan-physicalist approach 
to information, and vice versa, a pan-informationalist approach to 
physics too. Besides, the ongoing conceptualization of meaning looks 
rather meager. From my view, another important objection to the "8 
main ideas" is the absence of any reference to self-production (very 
different from self-organization!); the life-cycle notion is also 
missing...


Linking with the discussion that Michel started weeks ago, rather 
than situating a similar recollection of main ideas about the term 
"information", it could be  more interesting putting into question 
what it means "being informational".


S:  All of the above here seem to me to refer to the 'constraint' 
function of information as carrying its most physical sense of 
'meaning'.  Such constraints range from, e.g., a bend in river 
constraining the flow of water as a material realization of 
informational meaning, to the constants in equations being a logical 
realization.


Say, the adjective as more holistic than the name. The whole process 
around the message (generation & needs, coding, emission, 
transmission, reception, decoding, interpretation, action...) 
becomes the natural universe of information science, rather than the 
focus on any single conceptual item (wherever we may be willing to 
situate "information"). Curiously, "informational" in English & in 
Spanish does not exist (only "informative", I think, but it means 
something completely different). What "informational" would be 
indicating, roughly, is that an entity self-constructs itself 
through the coupling of inner and environmental signals... as 
happens with cells, organisms, enterprises, etc.


 S: And abiotic dissipative structures as well.

STAN



best regards

Pedro



"3.  Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with "informational
quantities" that transcend the medium through which the parts
communicate. The "binding" or coupling is mediated by information and
not by conventional forces (or not only)"

But isn't that exchange of information carrier the way physical forces
conventionally are - exchange forces?
Particles that are exchanged in particle physics are
information carriers
(or "messages" if one so will).

Best regards,
Gordana
   



Dear Gordana,

I understood this as Shannon-type information which is dimensionless (bits)
and merely dependent on changes in the distributions. The carriers in
different systems (to be coordinated) can in this case be substantially
different, but the distributions may communicate in terms of the
transmission (etc.).

Best wishes,


Loet





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Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Loet Leydesdorff]

Dear Gordana, Pedro, and colleagues, 
 
That would be unfortunate because a reduction of the information-theoretical
approach to physics unnecessarily sacrifices explanatory power. (As would by
the way, a reduction to biology or any other substantive theory.) At issue
is --as you correctly note-- the autopoiesis model itself which allows for
coordination at different systems level. The formalisms allow us to move
from one level to another heuristically, and thus to specify if necessary
counter-intuitively.
 
For example, the market can be considered as a social coordination system
with its own dynamics. The coordination with other coordination mechanisms
by various forms of couplings can also be studied using the
information-theoretical approach because the expected information content of
a distribution is yet content-free. The specification of a system of
reference provides the (Shannon-type) information with meaning. For example,
when H is multiplied with the Boltzmann constant, the entropy is expressed
in Joule/Kelvin and physics is the system of reference. However, this is a
special case. Joule and degrees have no clear meaning in the case of the
operation of the market as a coordination mechanism.
 
Best wishes, 
 
 
Loet
 
 
 
  _  

Loet Leydesdorff 
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), 
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. 
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681 
 <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net> l...@leydesdorff.net ;
<http://www.leydesdorff.net/> http://www.leydesdorff.net/ 

 


  _  

From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On
Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 2:46 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?


Dear Gordana and Loet,

This is what the editors of the book literally say: 

"The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with informational
quantities that transcend the medium through which the parts communicate.
Evidence shows that things may be coupled by mechanical forces, by light, by
sound, by smell, by touch and by intention. In Coordination Dynamics,
"binding" or coupling is mediated by information, not --or not only-- by
conventional forces. Such information may not only be of a material but also
of a structural or topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes in
the dynamics of the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. Hence,
"bound" coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are informational, and
information that changes bound states is "meaningful" to the system."
(Preface, p. IX) 


I agree with Gordana that it may support a pan-physicalist approach to
information, and vice versa, a pan-informationalist approach to physics too.
Besides, the ongoing conceptualization of meaning looks rather meager. From
my view, another important objection to the "8 main ideas" is the absence of
any reference to self-production (very different from self-organization!);
the life-cycle notion is also missing... 

Linking with the discussion that Michel started weeks ago, rather than
situating a similar recollection of main ideas about the term "information",
it could be  more interesting putting into question what it means "being
informational". Say, the adjective as more holistic than the name. The whole
process around the message (generation & needs, coding, emission,
transmission, reception, decoding, interpretation, action...) becomes the
natural universe of information science, rather than the focus on any single
conceptual item (wherever we may be willing to situate "information").
Curiously, "informational" in English & in Spanish does not exist (only
"informative", I think, but it means something completely different). What
"informational" would be indicating, roughly, is that an entity
self-constructs itself through the coupling of inner and environmental
signals... as happens with cells, organisms, enterprises, etc.

best regards

Pedro
 


"3.  Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with "informational

quantities" that transcend the medium through which the parts

communicate. The "binding" or coupling is mediated by information and

not by conventional forces (or not only)"



But isn't that exchange of information carrier the way physical forces

conventionally are - exchange forces?

Particles that are exchanged in particle physics are 

information carriers

(or "messages" if one so will).



Best regards,

Gordana





Dear Gordana, 



I understood this as Shannon-type information which is dimensionless (bits)

and merely dependent on changes in the distributions. The carriers in

different systems (to be coordinated) can in this case be substantially

different, but the distributions may communicate in terms of the

transmission (etc.).



Best wishes, 





Loet



  

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Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Pedro C. Marijuan]

Dear Gordana and Loet,

This is what the editors of the book literally say:

"The third main idea is that Coordination Dynamics deals with 
informational quantities that transcend the medium through which the 
parts communicate. Evidence shows that things may be coupled by 
mechanical forces, by light, by sound, by smell, by touch and by 
intention. In Coordination Dynamics, "binding" or coupling is mediated 
by information, not --or not only-- by conventional forces. Such 
information may not only be of a material but also of a structural or 
topological nature. It may cause qualitative changes in the dynamics of 
the coordinating parts and new states to emerge. Hence, "bound" 
coordinative states in Coordination Dynamics are informational, and 
information that changes bound states is "meaningful" to the system." 
(Preface, p. IX)



I agree with Gordana that it may support a pan-physicalist approach to 
information, and vice versa, a pan-informationalist approach to physics 
too. Besides, the ongoing conceptualization of meaning looks rather 
meager. From my view, another important objection to the "8 main ideas" 
is the absence of any reference to self-production (very different from 
self-organization!); the life-cycle notion is also missing...


Linking with the discussion that Michel started weeks ago, rather than 
situating a similar recollection of main ideas about the term 
"information", it could be  more interesting putting into question what 
it means "being informational". Say, the adjective as more holistic than 
the name. The whole process around the message (generation & needs, 
coding, emission, transmission, reception, decoding, interpretation, 
action...) becomes the natural universe of information science, rather 
than the focus on any single conceptual item (wherever we may be willing 
to situate "information"). Curiously, "informational" in English & in 
Spanish does not exist (only "informative", I think, but it means 
something completely different). What "informational" would be 
indicating, roughly, is that an entity self-constructs itself through 
the coupling of inner and environmental signals... as happens with 
cells, organisms, enterprises, etc.


best regards

Pedro


"3.  Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with "informational
quantities" that transcend the medium through which the parts
communicate. The "binding" or coupling is mediated by information and
not by conventional forces (or not only)"

But isn't that exchange of information carrier the way physical forces
conventionally are - exchange forces?
Particles that are exchanged in particle physics are 
information carriers

(or "messages" if one so will).

Best regards,
Gordana



Dear Gordana, 


I understood this as Shannon-type information which is dimensionless (bits)
and merely dependent on changes in the distributions. The carriers in
different systems (to be coordinated) can in this case be substantially
different, but the distributions may communicate in terms of the
transmission (etc.).

Best wishes, 



Loet

  
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Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Loet Leydesdorff]

> "3.  Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with "informational
> quantities" that transcend the medium through which the parts
> communicate. The "binding" or coupling is mediated by information and
> not by conventional forces (or not only)"
> 
> But isn't that exchange of information carrier the way physical forces
> conventionally are - exchange forces?
> Particles that are exchanged in particle physics are 
> information carriers
> (or "messages" if one so will).
> 
> Best regards,
> Gordana

Dear Gordana, 

I understood this as Shannon-type information which is dimensionless (bits)
and merely dependent on changes in the distributions. The carriers in
different systems (to be coordinated) can in this case be substantially
different, but the distributions may communicate in terms of the
transmission (etc.).

Best wishes, 


Loet

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Re: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic]

Dear Pedro,

Happy New Year to you too.
Thank you very much for this interesting reference.
Fascinating how many fields converge nowadays!

Based on your mail and without having read the book yet,
I have one thought.

You say:
"3.  Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with "informational
quantities" that transcend the medium through which the parts
communicate. The "binding" or coupling is mediated by information and
not by conventional forces (or not only)"

But isn't that exchange of information carrier the way physical forces
conventionally are - exchange forces?
Particles that are exchanged in particle physics are information carriers
(or "messages" if one so will).

Best regards,
Gordana





Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Associate Professor
Mälardalen University
Sweden
School of Innovation, Design and Engineering
http://www.idt.mdh.se/personal/gdc



-Original Message-
From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: den 15 januari 2009 14:20
To: fis
Subject: [Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

Dear FIS colleagues,

Notwithstanding the delay, Happy New Year to All!

Although the year has not started terrificly (there have been negative
news regarding the planned conference in Vienna, and also other
organizing initiatives seem to be in stand by), it does not mean that
things will go necessarily in the wrongway... Well, having a glance on a
relatively recent book (2004) about "Coordination Dynamics" edited by
V.K. Jirsa and Scott Kelso, it was a surprise finding a short and dense
Preface synthesizing the basic tenets of the proposed new field: most
contents were related to information (rather than a "science of
coordination" one wonders whether they were attempting a new science of
Information). I summarize their eight "main ideas" presented in a dense,
three pages text:

--
0. The goal of Coordination Dynamics, the science of coordination, is to
describe, explain and predict how patterns of coordination form, adapt,
persist and change in natural systems ultimately how things come
together in space and time, and how they split apart.

1. The basic patterns of coordination relate to self-organization
processes.

2. Those self-organization processes can be captured by coordination or
collective variables that evolve in time: patterns dynamics capable of
generating a rich repertoire of behaviors.

3.  Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with "informational
quantities" that transcend the medium through which the parts
communicate. The "binding" or coupling is mediated by information and
not by conventional forces (or not only)

4. Coordination Dynamics offers an explanation for the origin of
meaningful information, beyond the binary digits (bits),  by coordinated
states, metastability regimes, and coexisting tendencies.

5. It also provide foundations for explaining the biological origins of
agency and consciousness: information once created and "stored" can
direct, guide and modify  the existing coordination dynamics.

6. Information plays a specific and dual role: it may stabilize
coordination states under conditions in which they are unstable and
susceptible to global change; and it can also destabilize such states in
order to fit the need of the organism or the current demands of the
situation.

7. Coordination Dynamics offers a way to connect levels of organizations
out from the lawful coupling among components: it advocates a philosophy
of "constructive reductionism".

8. Ubiquity of Coordination Dynamics: between genes and proteins, within
and between different regions of the brain, between an organism and its
environment, socially, etc. It offers the intriguing possibility that
what we learn about the Coordination Dynamics in one realm may aid in
understanding another.
-

One can easily disagree with some points, write them differently, or
change the focus; but the emerging synthesis looks brave, and has some
merit. At least, the impact it is achieving looks remarkable (previous
decades of synergetics and other similar fields help a bit). At FIS we
have rarely attempted the discussion of a succinct synthesis, and of
course not have appended a whole book with related works... it is not a
bad idea to keep in mind, maybe just as a New Year proposal.

best wishes

Pedro


Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50.009 Zaragoza. España
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es

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[Fis] Emerging Synthesis?

[Pedro C. Marijuan]

Dear FIS colleagues,

Notwithstanding the delay, Happy New Year to All!

Although the year has not started terrificly (there have been negative 
news regarding the planned conference in Vienna, and also other 
organizing initiatives seem to be in stand by), it does not mean that 
things will go necessarily in the wrongway... Well, having a glance on a 
relatively recent book (2004) about "Coordination Dynamics" edited by 
V.K. Jirsa and Scott Kelso, it was a surprise finding a short and dense 
Preface synthesizing the basic tenets of the proposed new field: most 
contents were related to information (rather than a "science of 
coordination" one wonders whether they were attempting a new science of 
Information). I summarize their eight "main ideas" presented in a dense, 
three pages text:

--
0. The goal of Coordination Dynamics, the science of coordination, is to 
describe, explain and predict how patterns of coordination form, adapt, 
persist and change in natural systems ultimately how things come 
together in space and time, and how they split apart.

1. The basic patterns of coordination relate to self-organization 
processes.

2. Those self-organization processes can be captured by coordination or 
collective variables that evolve in time: patterns dynamics capable of 
generating a rich repertoire of behaviors.

3.  Thereafter, the coordination dynamics deals with "informational 
quantities" that transcend the medium through which the parts 
communicate. The "binding" or coupling is mediated by information and 
not by conventional forces (or not only)

4. Coordination Dynamics offers an explanation for the origin of 
meaningful information, beyond the binary digits (bits),  by coordinated 
states, metastability regimes, and coexisting tendencies.

5. It also provide foundations for explaining the biological origins of 
agency and consciousness: information once created and "stored" can 
direct, guide and modify  the existing coordination dynamics.

6. Information plays a specific and dual role: it may stabilize 
coordination states under conditions in which they are unstable and 
susceptible to global change; and it can also destabilize such states in 
order to fit the need of the organism or the current demands of the 
situation.

7. Coordination Dynamics offers a way to connect levels of organizations 
out from the lawful coupling among components: it advocates a philosophy 
of "constructive reductionism".

8. Ubiquity of Coordination Dynamics: between genes and proteins, within 
and between different regions of the brain, between an organism and its 
environment, socially, etc. It offers the intriguing possibility that 
what we learn about the Coordination Dynamics in one realm may aid in 
understanding another.
-

One can easily disagree with some points, write them differently, or 
change the focus; but the emerging synthesis looks brave, and has some 
merit. At least, the impact it is achieving looks remarkable (previous 
decades of synergetics and other similar fields help a bit). At FIS we 
have rarely attempted the discussion of a succinct synthesis, and of 
course not have appended a whole book with related works... it is not a 
bad idea to keep in mind, maybe just as a New Year proposal.

best wishes

Pedro


Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50.009 Zaragoza. España
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es

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