[OT] was: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
while this silly thread is still alive: i just wanted to inform you about two mails i got directly from members and non members from this list. i am quoting the mails here cause i thought since i got them because i posted to this list, the list should get this part of the thread too: first one is from josh from theyrule.net, somewhat friendlier: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Hi Michael, I am not on Flashcoders, but I do check the archives and was following the Eolas workarounds. I would have replied to the whole list but don't want to sub and have to deal with the volume. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to write in response to your mail that I have copied below. I think that you should apologize for this posting - because if you look back at the post that you are responding to - you will find that 1) it is about flash code (yes as it relates to the environment it sits in) and 2) that you can not test this in Firefox - because the EOLAS patent isn't enforced there. The question is still open - I believe it is an IE bug - not passing full focus to Flash - if this is the case then Macromedia should know about it. - ok, josh is so frankly of being clever and better stay off this list, for it has too much traffic for him. we all should do this. would keep traffic way lower than nowadays, don't you think? I already answered him: Hi Michael, I am not on Flashcoders, ok, so why do you bother me (private) with that thread at all ? but I do check the archives and was following the Eolas workarounds. I would have replied to the whole list but don't want to sub and *have to deal with the volume*. no comment. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to write in response to your mail that I have copied below. I think that you should apologize for this posting - because if you look back at the post that you are responding to - you will find that 1) it is about flash code (yes as it relates to the environment it sits in) it has and will never have anything to do with actionscript or related jsfl @ all. it's a browser thing. period. The question is still open - I believe it is an IE bug - not passing full focus to Flash - if this is the case then *Macromedia *should know about it. yeah, and you still live in 2005 do you :-) ? Btw: you broke several rules of the netiquette in general (search the archives or google it.) now you're another item on my Junk list right now, since you don't care for the easiest rules of all. micha but wait there was another one ... here's what kid alec has to tell me: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Cannot test this in Mozilla, because Mozilla does not require flash activation. Think before you type in public forums, idiot. i'm not gonna feed this troll. make your own decisions. micha ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
that's not really accurate... you can have the flash inserted as the page loads and not have to activate it. the requirement is that it's written by an external script, and not invoked natively by the browser (and plain html). it doesn't matter if it's done onload or inline as the page is loading. the solution to all of this is to just use one of the many js solutions that don't have issues like this. if you can't use javascript for some reason (which should never be the case), then be prepared to force your customers to click to activate the control. On Jun 14, 2006, at 5:19 PM, ryanm wrote: There's no magic there, the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Don't use a delay, use the onload event. A delay is unpredictable because you are working on the client side, where bandwidth, network congestion, and the size of the images and other files loaded into the page will cause the amount of time before the onload event fires to vary drastically. To state that more clearly, you will *never* accomplish this in any predictable way using a time delay, not even if you make the delay over 1 minute, because somewhere there is still a guy using a 14.4 modem. ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Hi Karina, (probably already answered question) Why does the javascript need to be external? Is there any solution to this problem that uses an internal javascript. Thanks in Advance. On 6/14/06, Karina Steffens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Alec, You could try ObjectSwap on my blog - http://www.neo-archaic.net/blog/2006/04/25/objectswap.htm Karina ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
you have to use an external script because of the way the patent was worded.. by using an external script, you are somehow not infringing on it, so that's how the patch works. On Jun 15, 2006, at 11:09 AM, 8ball Developer wrote: Hi Karina, (probably already answered question) Why does the javascript need to be external? Is there any solution to this problem that uses an internal javascript. Thanks in Advance. On 6/14/06, Karina Steffens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Alec, You could try ObjectSwap on my blog - http://www.neo-archaic.net/blog/2006/04/25/objectswap.htm Karina ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
also i might as well take this opportunity to point everyone to SWFObject: http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/ it fixes all the eolas problems you are having, it's really easy to use, supports express install, does plugin detection and can provide alternate content, opens your wine bottles and tin cans, and gives you a massage at the end of a long day. check it out. On Jun 15, 2006, at 11:09 AM, 8ball Developer wrote: Hi Karina, (probably already answered question) Why does the javascript need to be external? Is there any solution to this problem that uses an internal javascript. Thanks in Advance. On 6/14/06, Karina Steffens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Alec, You could try ObjectSwap on my blog - http://www.neo-archaic.net/blog/2006/04/25/objectswap.htm Karina ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
there's a number of known issues with it... maybe this is the problem? http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=4f91f9b8 i have a summary of all the issues related to the eolas stuff here: http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/12/15/internet-explorer-eolas-changes- and-the-flash-plugin/ On Jun 15, 2006, at 11:41 AM, Tom Lee wrote: the solution to all of this is to just use one of the many js solutions that don't have issues like this. If you're referring to the issue I'm reporting, I'm afraid your solution is not immune either. Two out of 3 of my PCs will show the click to activate message if you have cleared your cache and then visited your example pages without restarting your browser first. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Stearns Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:56 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug that's not really accurate... you can have the flash inserted as the page loads and not have to activate it. the requirement is that it's written by an external script, and not invoked natively by the browser (and plain html). it doesn't matter if it's done onload or inline as the page is loading. the solution to all of this is to just use one of the many js solutions that don't have issues like this. if you can't use javascript for some reason (which should never be the case), then be prepared to force your customers to click to activate the control. On Jun 14, 2006, at 5:19 PM, ryanm wrote: There's no magic there, the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Don't use a delay, use the onload event. A delay is unpredictable because you are working on the client side, where bandwidth, network congestion, and the size of the images and other files loaded into the page will cause the amount of time before the onload event fires to vary drastically. To state that more clearly, you will *never* accomplish this in any predictable way using a time delay, not even if you make the delay over 1 minute, because somewhere there is still a guy using a 14.4 modem. ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
A massage you say? Wow, I could really do with one of those ;) Seriously, I think SWFObject is a great solution (especially the massage) with loads of advantages. It's just a question of what works better for the situation. ObjectSwap is best as a quick fix, where Flash is already embedded, and it's main advantage is that you don't have to have JavaScript (the script will just be ignored, but Flash will still display). And there's also an optional plugin detection, although not express install. Btw, I'm glad I didn't call it FlashSwap, when I was looking for a name... Those Adobe legal people are completely out of line. Karina -Original Message- From: Geoff Stearns [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 June 2006 16:19 To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug also i might as well take this opportunity to point everyone to SWFObject: http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/ it fixes all the eolas problems you are having, it's really easy to use, supports express install, does plugin detection and can provide alternate content, opens your wine bottles and tin cans, and gives you a massage at the end of a long day. check it out. On Jun 15, 2006, at 11:09 AM, 8ball Developer wrote: Hi Karina, (probably already answered question) Why does the javascript need to be external? Is there any solution to this problem that uses an internal javascript. Thanks in Advance. On 6/14/06, Karina Steffens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Alec, You could try ObjectSwap on my blog - http://www.neo-archaic.net/blog/2006/04/25/objectswap.htm Karina ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Thanks for the pointer, Geoff - the jscript.dll was not at issue in my case however. I have a feeling it may relate to the bug described in this article: http://blog.metawrap.com/blog/MicrosoftsEolasActiveXPatchForIESometimesBreak sJavaScriptWorkaround.aspx However, I have no way to prove it since I can't uninstall the Hotfixes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Stearns Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 12:19 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug there's a number of known issues with it... maybe this is the problem? http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=4f91f9b8 i have a summary of all the issues related to the eolas stuff here: http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/12/15/internet-explorer-eolas-changes- and-the-flash-plugin/ On Jun 15, 2006, at 11:41 AM, Tom Lee wrote: the solution to all of this is to just use one of the many js solutions that don't have issues like this. If you're referring to the issue I'm reporting, I'm afraid your solution is not immune either. Two out of 3 of my PCs will show the click to activate message if you have cleared your cache and then visited your example pages without restarting your browser first. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Stearns Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:56 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug that's not really accurate... you can have the flash inserted as the page loads and not have to activate it. the requirement is that it's written by an external script, and not invoked natively by the browser (and plain html). it doesn't matter if it's done onload or inline as the page is loading. the solution to all of this is to just use one of the many js solutions that don't have issues like this. if you can't use javascript for some reason (which should never be the case), then be prepared to force your customers to click to activate the control. On Jun 14, 2006, at 5:19 PM, ryanm wrote: There's no magic there, the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Don't use a delay, use the onload event. A delay is unpredictable because you are working on the client side, where bandwidth, network congestion, and the size of the images and other files loaded into the page will cause the amount of time before the onload event fires to vary drastically. To state that more clearly, you will *never* accomplish this in any predictable way using a time delay, not even if you make the delay over 1 minute, because somewhere there is still a guy using a 14.4 modem. ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Tom Lee wrote: If you're referring to the issue I'm reporting, I'm afraid your solution is not immune either. Two out of 3 of my PCs will show the click to activate message if you have cleared your cache and then visited your example pages without restarting your browser first. If that's the case, I'm not sure there's anything we can do about it. SwfObject should be 100% immune to the click to activate feature. If it's not, I'd say its a bug in IE, and we may have no choice but to wait for a fix from MS (it's ok, you can laugh now). After taking a look at that link, it does sound plausible that that could be the issue. In any case, it sounds like this bug would affect few people, since they both have to have their system configured to see it (by installing some combination of updates), and meet a condition requirement (having cleared their cache, and reloaded your page without restarting the browser). BTW (a bit of brainstorming to follow), I wonder if there is some way to see if the user has been to your site, and then cleared their cache and returned without re-starting their browser - maybe by setting a session cookie on the first visit, then checking it on subsequent visits as well as checking the speed or download state of the Flash movie or other Object on the page (using Object.onload, or Object.onreadystate). If there is some way to figure out if the cache has been cleared, and this is a detected revisit, and the object hasn't been downloaded, then perhaps a simple refresh of the whole page after the defer or document.onload could fix it - setting another cookie of course to prevent endless refreshes. Of course this will not work if they delete their cookies at the same time they empty their cache. I don't know. Also, I apologize if what I'm saying doesn't make much sense in the face of any evidence, I'm struggling to finish a project that has been a real time killer, and simply haven't had the time to read all the posted materials as thoroughly as I would have liked or conduct full tests of suggested solutions on my own (or even set up a reliable reproduction machine). Kevin N. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Kevin, Thanks for the fresh thinking! Like you, I'm kind of leaning toward the idea that this is maybe not worth too much further effort, considering the limited scope of the problem. If nothing else, at least the issue is now documented in more places than before. :) -tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Newman Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 2:35 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Tom Lee wrote: If you're referring to the issue I'm reporting, I'm afraid your solution is not immune either. Two out of 3 of my PCs will show the click to activate message if you have cleared your cache and then visited your example pages without restarting your browser first. If that's the case, I'm not sure there's anything we can do about it. SwfObject should be 100% immune to the click to activate feature. If it's not, I'd say its a bug in IE, and we may have no choice but to wait for a fix from MS (it's ok, you can laugh now). After taking a look at that link, it does sound plausible that that could be the issue. In any case, it sounds like this bug would affect few people, since they both have to have their system configured to see it (by installing some combination of updates), and meet a condition requirement (having cleared their cache, and reloaded your page without restarting the browser). BTW (a bit of brainstorming to follow), I wonder if there is some way to see if the user has been to your site, and then cleared their cache and returned without re-starting their browser - maybe by setting a session cookie on the first visit, then checking it on subsequent visits as well as checking the speed or download state of the Flash movie or other Object on the page (using Object.onload, or Object.onreadystate). If there is some way to figure out if the cache has been cleared, and this is a detected revisit, and the object hasn't been downloaded, then perhaps a simple refresh of the whole page after the defer or document.onload could fix it - setting another cookie of course to prevent endless refreshes. Of course this will not work if they delete their cookies at the same time they empty their cache. I don't know. Also, I apologize if what I'm saying doesn't make much sense in the face of any evidence, I'm struggling to finish a project that has been a real time killer, and simply haven't had the time to read all the posted materials as thoroughly as I would have liked or conduct full tests of suggested solutions on my own (or even set up a reliable reproduction machine). Kevin N. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Hi Alec, You could try ObjectSwap on my blog - http://www.neo-archaic.net/blog/2006/04/25/objectswap.htm Karina -Original Message- From: Alec Matusis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 June 2006 19:49 To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' Subject: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug I have to embed flash applets into web pages directly, without Javascript Eolas workaround. The users therefore have to click to activate the flash movie in IE. After that, the Flash movie properly receives the text input, EXCEPT for Backspace and Tab keys. Pressing Backspace has an action of Back button in the browser, it takes a user back one page. Pressing Tab moves the focus into another object in the browser. So it looks like when the control is activated , the Flash receives only a PARTIAL focus: it accepts all text input except Backspace and Tab. When you click on Flash the second time, it receives full focus, and Backspace and Tab function properly. Can anyone explain this behavior? Is this an IE bug? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Hello, I have not been able to reproduce that problem with IE 7 beta, but I have found that it occasionally stalls out after the files have been cleared from the cache (though not if this is the first time to visit the page, then it seems to work fine - maybe if all history is cleared and not just the cache it solves the problem?). I think the defer attribute on the script my be causing this - I have had some issues with using this method as an ondomcomplete event mimicker, and I'm not sure it always works (it definitely does not under IE 5.5 on Windows 98 that I'm running in VMware - it's the standalone install, which might be the problem). Do you have the same problem if you are running this script from onload instead of using the deferred script? If so, then a possible fix might be to use ondocumentready instead, and just fix the objects that are available at each stage of ondocument ready (I have never used that, so I'm not sure it would work, but it might be worth a try, if this is an onload problem). If that is not the problem and/or that solution doesn't work, it might be possible to add the replacement script the each individual object tag's onload, so that the replacement doesn't happen until we know that the specific object has been loaded (though I'm not sure they are loading if you set the display to none, and if they are, then you get the double loading issue). Setting these onload properties could be done during the stages of ondocumentready (or if the deferred script is actually working, we could just use that). I will do some testing on these tricks, and see what I can come up with, but I probably will not be able to get to it any time soon - its quite busy around here. :-) BTW, I have no problem discussing this stuff in the mailing list, if it isn't too OT. Thanks, Kevin N. Tom Lee wrote: Kevin, I just tried out your patentmagic demo, and found that it suffers from the same problem I have faced in my own attempts. If you empty your cache and then reload the page, the Active X control does require activation. (I have verified this on 3 individual PCs). I blogged about the problem at http://tom-lee.blogspot.com/2006/06/eolas-workaround-fails-if-triggered.html . The post contains a test page to verify. Perhaps we can join forces and figure out what the hell's going on with this? I'd be happy to work with you off-list if you prefer. -tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Newman Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 3:49 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Is the problem that you can't run Javascript at all, or that you need to put the embed code in html instead of javascript? You could use this patent fix: http://www.unfocus.com/projects/patentmagic/ It still relies on scripting being enabled (so you'd still have this problem for anyone that doesn't have JS enabled - if they don't have JS enabled, they probably don't have ActiveX enable either though), but you can at least use your html markup to embed the flash movie. Kevin N. Alec Matusis wrote: I have to embed flash applets into web pages directly, without Javascript Eolas workaround. The users therefore have to click to activate the flash movie in IE. After that, the Flash movie properly receives the text input, EXCEPT for Backspace and Tab keys. Pressing Backspace has an action of Back button in the browser, it takes a user back one page. Pressing Tab moves the focus into another object in the browser. So it looks like when the control is activated , the Flash receives only a PARTIAL focus: it accepts all text input except Backspace and Tab. When you click on Flash the second time, it receives full focus, and Backspace and Tab function properly. Can anyone explain this behavior? Is this an IE bug? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Hi Kevin, To answer a few questions you raised: 1) It does seem to be the defer attribute which causes the issue. If the replacement script is triggered from window.onload, it works fine. 2) Clearing the browser's history seems to have no effect. However, if you clear your cache and then restart your browser, the problem is solved. I've experimented with delaying the replacement script using setTimeout. So, the deferred script sets up a delay, and then the replacement script is executed after that delay. If you set the delay long enough, the problem is solved - no click to activate. I haven't quite narrowed down how long the delay needs to be exactly, but it does seem to point to some issue in the timing of events. Perhaps there is a magic sweet spot between the execution of deferred scripts and window.onload when elements can be inserted into the document without click to activate. There also seems to be a relationship between the length of delay necessary versus the filesize of the SWF being inserted into the document. Which makes no sense to me, since SWFs stream. I do kind of feel like we should take this off list if we get into a lot of JavaScript - even though it relates to Flash in this context. Thoughts? -tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Newman Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 1:03 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Hello, I have not been able to reproduce that problem with IE 7 beta, but I have found that it occasionally stalls out after the files have been cleared from the cache (though not if this is the first time to visit the page, then it seems to work fine - maybe if all history is cleared and not just the cache it solves the problem?). I think the defer attribute on the script my be causing this - I have had some issues with using this method as an ondomcomplete event mimicker, and I'm not sure it always works (it definitely does not under IE 5.5 on Windows 98 that I'm running in VMware - it's the standalone install, which might be the problem). Do you have the same problem if you are running this script from onload instead of using the deferred script? If so, then a possible fix might be to use ondocumentready instead, and just fix the objects that are available at each stage of ondocument ready (I have never used that, so I'm not sure it would work, but it might be worth a try, if this is an onload problem). If that is not the problem and/or that solution doesn't work, it might be possible to add the replacement script the each individual object tag's onload, so that the replacement doesn't happen until we know that the specific object has been loaded (though I'm not sure they are loading if you set the display to none, and if they are, then you get the double loading issue). Setting these onload properties could be done during the stages of ondocumentready (or if the deferred script is actually working, we could just use that). I will do some testing on these tricks, and see what I can come up with, but I probably will not be able to get to it any time soon - its quite busy around here. :-) BTW, I have no problem discussing this stuff in the mailing list, if it isn't too OT. Thanks, Kevin N. Tom Lee wrote: Kevin, I just tried out your patentmagic demo, and found that it suffers from the same problem I have faced in my own attempts. If you empty your cache and then reload the page, the Active X control does require activation. (I have verified this on 3 individual PCs). I blogged about the problem at http://tom-lee.blogspot.com/2006/06/eolas-workaround-fails-if-triggered.html . The post contains a test page to verify. Perhaps we can join forces and figure out what the hell's going on with this? I'd be happy to work with you off-list if you prefer. -tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Newman Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 3:49 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Is the problem that you can't run Javascript at all, or that you need to put the embed code in html instead of javascript? You could use this patent fix: http://www.unfocus.com/projects/patentmagic/ It still relies on scripting being enabled (so you'd still have this problem for anyone that doesn't have JS enabled - if they don't have JS enabled, they probably don't have ActiveX enable either though), but you can at least use your html markup to embed the flash movie. Kevin N. Alec Matusis wrote: I have to embed flash applets into web pages directly, without Javascript Eolas workaround. The users therefore have to click to activate the flash movie in IE. After that, the Flash movie properly receives the text input, EXCEPT for Backspace and Tab keys. Pressing Backspace has an action
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Perhaps there is a magic sweet spot between the execution of deferred scripts and window.onload when elements can be inserted into the document without click to activate. There's no magic there, the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Don't use a delay, use the onload event. A delay is unpredictable because you are working on the client side, where bandwidth, network congestion, and the size of the images and other files loaded into the page will cause the amount of time before the onload event fires to vary drastically. To state that more clearly, you will *never* accomplish this in any predictable way using a time delay, not even if you make the delay over 1 minute, because somewhere there is still a guy using a 14.4 modem. ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Maybe the workaround is to remove the old node, before overwriting it? I am currently just setting oldObjectNode.outerHTML = newObject.outerHTML. We might have to remove the old node completely, then reinsert it (in the correct position in the DOM). Actually, it's probably worth testing if the script is running at all when you set up your error condition (and whether the script has access to the DOM if it does run - an alert(document.body.innerHTML); should do). I think that you may have found a critical bug in the deferred script technique. I have noticed intermittent strange behavior with using deffered scripts with IE on other projects. Another solution might be to just suffer the extra load time (waiting for images and such), and use the document.onactivate event or document.onbeforeactivate, which fires before onload. I think right before it, which means after all the images load - actually, I'm not even sure it waits until the DOM is ready... If my assumptions about when this fires are correct, it will take longer to load than the defer method, but will still happen before onload, so onload scripting should still be safe. http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/events/onactivate.asp Then there's the old ondocumentready trick.. This is still related to Flash in a round about way, but it more about JScript ActiveX and IE than it is about Flash at this point. I'll let you guys decide if this should continue on the list... Kevin N. Tom Lee wrote: Really I wasn't considering the delay as a real solution. It was just something I was using to probe for clues. the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Actually, that's not true. The only time it DOES require activation when inserted by a deferred script (script defer src=whatever.js/script) is if the user clears their cache and revisits the page without restarting their browser first. It is this edge case for which I am seeking a workaround. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ryanm Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:20 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Perhaps there is a magic sweet spot between the execution of deferred scripts and window.onload when elements can be inserted into the document without click to activate. There's no magic there, the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Don't use a delay, use the onload event. A delay is unpredictable because you are working on the client side, where bandwidth, network congestion, and the size of the images and other files loaded into the page will cause the amount of time before the onload event fires to vary drastically. To state that more clearly, you will *never* accomplish this in any predictable way using a time delay, not even if you make the delay over 1 minute, because somewhere there is still a guy using a 14.4 modem. ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Some good thoughts, Kevin. It'll take me some time to work through all the testing. I thought you'd be interested to know, I found two PCs the same version of IE on them - one exhibits the buggy behavior, the other doesn't. According to the version info, the IE installations are identical. However, there are some differences as to which Advanced Options are available, and one has the Java runtime installed and the other doesn't. Hopefully, I can narrow this down to a setting or something. On a very coarse-grain level, the installation that does not exhibit the bug is a much newer installation with no add-ons. I'm frankly not sure at this point whether to try to figure out the critical difference between the two browsers, or to try different JS methodologies until I hit one that works bug free. -tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Newman Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 8:42 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Maybe the workaround is to remove the old node, before overwriting it? I am currently just setting oldObjectNode.outerHTML = newObject.outerHTML. We might have to remove the old node completely, then reinsert it (in the correct position in the DOM). Actually, it's probably worth testing if the script is running at all when you set up your error condition (and whether the script has access to the DOM if it does run - an alert(document.body.innerHTML); should do). I think that you may have found a critical bug in the deferred script technique. I have noticed intermittent strange behavior with using deffered scripts with IE on other projects. Another solution might be to just suffer the extra load time (waiting for images and such), and use the document.onactivate event or document.onbeforeactivate, which fires before onload. I think right before it, which means after all the images load - actually, I'm not even sure it waits until the DOM is ready... If my assumptions about when this fires are correct, it will take longer to load than the defer method, but will still happen before onload, so onload scripting should still be safe. http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/events/onactivate. asp Then there's the old ondocumentready trick.. This is still related to Flash in a round about way, but it more about JScript ActiveX and IE than it is about Flash at this point. I'll let you guys decide if this should continue on the list... Kevin N. Tom Lee wrote: Really I wasn't considering the delay as a real solution. It was just something I was using to probe for clues. the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Actually, that's not true. The only time it DOES require activation when inserted by a deferred script (script defer src=whatever.js/script) is if the user clears their cache and revisits the page without restarting their browser first. It is this edge case for which I am seeking a workaround. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ryanm Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:20 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Perhaps there is a magic sweet spot between the execution of deferred scripts and window.onload when elements can be inserted into the document without click to activate. There's no magic there, the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Don't use a delay, use the onload event. A delay is unpredictable because you are working on the client side, where bandwidth, network congestion, and the size of the images and other files loaded into the page will cause the amount of time before the onload event fires to vary drastically. To state that more clearly, you will *never* accomplish this in any predictable way using a time delay, not even if you make the delay over 1 minute, because somewhere there is still a guy using a 14.4 modem. ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Some more information... Don't know how I missed this earlier, but it turns out the script defer isn't the issue - the bug occurs even with window.onload. Stupid me. Anyway, here's a link that may explain the whole thing: http://blog.metawrap.com/blog/MicrosoftsEolasActiveXPatchForIESometimesBreak sJavaScriptWorkaround.aspx -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Lee Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 10:21 PM To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Some good thoughts, Kevin. It'll take me some time to work through all the testing. I thought you'd be interested to know, I found two PCs the same version of IE on them - one exhibits the buggy behavior, the other doesn't. According to the version info, the IE installations are identical. However, there are some differences as to which Advanced Options are available, and one has the Java runtime installed and the other doesn't. Hopefully, I can narrow this down to a setting or something. On a very coarse-grain level, the installation that does not exhibit the bug is a much newer installation with no add-ons. I'm frankly not sure at this point whether to try to figure out the critical difference between the two browsers, or to try different JS methodologies until I hit one that works bug free. -tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Newman Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 8:42 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Maybe the workaround is to remove the old node, before overwriting it? I am currently just setting oldObjectNode.outerHTML = newObject.outerHTML. We might have to remove the old node completely, then reinsert it (in the correct position in the DOM). Actually, it's probably worth testing if the script is running at all when you set up your error condition (and whether the script has access to the DOM if it does run - an alert(document.body.innerHTML); should do). I think that you may have found a critical bug in the deferred script technique. I have noticed intermittent strange behavior with using deffered scripts with IE on other projects. Another solution might be to just suffer the extra load time (waiting for images and such), and use the document.onactivate event or document.onbeforeactivate, which fires before onload. I think right before it, which means after all the images load - actually, I'm not even sure it waits until the DOM is ready... If my assumptions about when this fires are correct, it will take longer to load than the defer method, but will still happen before onload, so onload scripting should still be safe. http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/events/onactivate. asp Then there's the old ondocumentready trick.. This is still related to Flash in a round about way, but it more about JScript ActiveX and IE than it is about Flash at this point. I'll let you guys decide if this should continue on the list... Kevin N. Tom Lee wrote: Really I wasn't considering the delay as a real solution. It was just something I was using to probe for clues. the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Actually, that's not true. The only time it DOES require activation when inserted by a deferred script (script defer src=whatever.js/script) is if the user clears their cache and revisits the page without restarting their browser first. It is this edge case for which I am seeking a workaround. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ryanm Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:20 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Perhaps there is a magic sweet spot between the execution of deferred scripts and window.onload when elements can be inserted into the document without click to activate. There's no magic there, the embedded object cannot exist prior to the onload event firing or it will require activation. Period. Don't use a delay, use the onload event. A delay is unpredictable because you are working on the client side, where bandwidth, network congestion, and the size of the images and other files loaded into the page will cause the amount of time before the onload event fires to vary drastically. To state that more clearly, you will *never* accomplish this in any predictable way using a time delay, not even if you make the delay over 1 minute, because somewhere there is still a guy using a 14.4 modem. ryanm ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
[Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
I have to embed flash applets into web pages directly, without Javascript Eolas workaround. The users therefore have to click to activate the flash movie in IE. After that, the Flash movie properly receives the text input, EXCEPT for Backspace and Tab keys. Pressing Backspace has an action of Back button in the browser, it takes a user back one page. Pressing Tab moves the focus into another object in the browser. So it looks like when the control is activated , the Flash receives only a PARTIAL focus: it accepts all text input except Backspace and Tab. When you click on Flash the second time, it receives full focus, and Backspace and Tab function properly. Can anyone explain this behavior? Is this an IE bug? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Alec, I'm glad you brought this up: now I'll know I'm not going crazy when I see the same behavior. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you. Just wanted to say that I think your question was a good one. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Stuhr Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:55 PM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug Alec Matusis schrieb: Can anyone explain this behavior? Is this an IE bug? why don't you use another browser like FF test your cases, and tell us ? this list is all about coding flash (therefor the name), so if you want an answer to your question why not try all YOU can do, and than ask your question ? micha ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
RE: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Why do you have to embed Flash applets into pages without help of, say, SWFObject? Ville -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alec Matusis Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 13:49 To: 'Flashcoders mailing list' Subject: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug I have to embed flash applets into web pages directly, without Javascript Eolas workaround. The users therefore have to click to activate the flash movie in IE. After that, the Flash movie properly receives the text input, EXCEPT for Backspace and Tab keys. Pressing Backspace has an action of Back button in the browser, it takes a user back one page. Pressing Tab moves the focus into another object in the browser. So it looks like when the control is activated , the Flash receives only a PARTIAL focus: it accepts all text input except Backspace and Tab. When you click on Flash the second time, it receives full focus, and Backspace and Tab function properly. Can anyone explain this behavior? Is this an IE bug? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Fresh off the Flash coders content degrading thread, eh? On 6/13/06 11:54 AM, Michael Stuhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alec Matusis schrieb: Can anyone explain this behavior? Is this an IE bug? why don't you use another browser like FF test your cases, and tell us ? this list is all about coding flash (therefor the name), so if you want an answer to your question why not try all YOU can do, and than ask your question ? micha ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Aaron Buchanan schrieb: Fresh off the Flash coders content degrading thread, eh? didn't even read it. but i hate those vampires. micha ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Is the problem that you can't run Javascript at all, or that you need to put the embed code in html instead of javascript? You could use this patent fix: http://www.unfocus.com/projects/patentmagic/ It still relies on scripting being enabled (so you'd still have this problem for anyone that doesn't have JS enabled - if they don't have JS enabled, they probably don't have ActiveX enable either though), but you can at least use your html markup to embed the flash movie. Kevin N. Alec Matusis wrote: I have to embed flash applets into web pages directly, without Javascript Eolas workaround. The users therefore have to click to activate the flash movie in IE. After that, the Flash movie properly receives the text input, EXCEPT for Backspace and Tab keys. Pressing Backspace has an action of Back button in the browser, it takes a user back one page. Pressing Tab moves the focus into another object in the browser. So it looks like when the control is activated , the Flash receives only a PARTIAL focus: it accepts all text input except Backspace and Tab. When you click on Flash the second time, it receives full focus, and Backspace and Tab function properly. Can anyone explain this behavior? Is this an IE bug? ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
Aaron Buchanan schrieb: Now that I think about it, lot's of people will a similar issue with any myspace applets. Since JS is restricted. Would be interested in hearing the resolution. Did you try in firefox? a why not use UFO or similar and provide an additional noscript / with the somewhat deprecated object and embed ? micha ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
Re: [Flashcoders] Eolas fix and backspace key flash bug
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 6/13/2006 4:40:17 PM why not use UFO or similar [...] Since JS is restricted. [...] and provide an additional noscript / with the somewhat deprecated object and embed ? Originally: I have to embed flash applets into web pages directly, without Javascript Eolas workaround. The users therefore have to click to activate the flash movie in IE. Using noscript doesn't fix the EOLAS click to activate *feature* and the focus bugs that it likely creates. Getting back to the original questio, I can't replicate the BACKSPACE issue, but I definitely see it with TAB. One possible workaround could be to set a textfield off stage. Tab will still go through the movie before going back to the browser, so maybe setting a onSetFocus handler to look for that and then manually refocusing on that one text field? Might keep IE at bay, but I haven't tested it. ___ Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com To change your subscription options or search the archive: http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
