Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader menu structure
Heiko: > Thanks, that's now an answer I was looking for. > > Though I'm sure we will get bug reports as well by users complaining > where the shader from 2.6.0 went, or why shaders won't work. > Some of this confusion was already visible in the forum. I don't want to bitch, but the thread started out with a description of the issue like this: "The problem: A shader for object X isn't an independent entity which you can switch on and off at your leisure independent of what else is going on - it needs to share the fogging and lighting scheme of the rest of the scene, otherwise it creates visual artefacts. At the moment, we have three such schemes: a) default in which the light is always the sunlight and the fog is always exp(-(const * length/vis)**2) b) Rembrandt in which the light can come from multiple sources and sunlight may be blocked by a shadow, fog remains as is c) Lightfields in which the sunlight is the only light source but at dusk or dawn becomes a function of position in the scene and in which the fog has a more complicated 2 component structure Each of the schemes has a justification to be there in terms of features vs. performance. Making a shader of one scheme work in a different scheme is a non-trivial exercise, in the case of water reflection shader into lightfields it cost me about half a week of really good coding time (kids with grandparents). So we simply don't have all shaders in all schemes, and I don't even know if all would run with enough fps in all schemes. How to present it to the user? (...) Please give some feedback - how can we communicate better what is happening and why there are limitations?" My personal opinion is that we should not allow to choose inconsistent shader options from the GUI in a release (and should not have done it in 2.6 either) but should make those only available via a commandline switch for the people who know what they're doing. http://www.hoerbird.net/fgfs-screen-764.jpg illustrates that the random vegetation shader isn't converted - trees are fogged too weakly as compared with the rest of the scene. http://www.hoerbird.net/fgfs-screen-763.jpg illustrates the problems of shader mismatch very nicely - there's a sharp line dividing sky and terrain where fog color and amount do not match. Try the same scene in sunset for a real bad mismatch... Curt: > I think the problem now is that the nice scatter effect sky dome no > longer works correctly with any render mode in the git version. It never did work correctly with any shader before. Now it works with some. Try using a 2.6, set visibility to 3000 m, switch any shaders you want on and see what happens - the whole world is fogged, except the sky is a bright, shiny blue to the horizon. > The scatter effect sky dome will give you very pretty skies -- especially in > combination with advanced rendering, just don't look at the terrain or > your own aircraft model because those are now rendered incorrectly with many > missing effects. I'm lost. Can you explain and give screenshots? I am seeing correctly rendered terrain and reasonably rendered aircraft when using the atmospheric scattering. I'm not seeing detailed aircraft effects because the shader hasn't been converted. In principle, I think here one could think of just allowing to run the default scheme shaders because the atmospheric scattering scheme wouldn't do much extra to your own aircraft - the problem is MP and wrong fogging and lighting for other people's planes. I don't know. I'm not seeing transition effects on the terrain, urban shader or ground relief because these aren't done either. I am seeing wave patterns and snowline because these are done. None of this is supposed to be recent behaviour. The old skydome of 2.6 never ever worked correctly with any other shader. Atmospheric light scattering (lightfields, terrain haze, the name changes to more general as I added features, but it's all the same family and I think I'll stick with atmospheric light scattering) never supported transition shaders for the terrain or urban effect before. They're not suddenly gone, they never were working before in the scheme. If there's anything recently broken, please explain with details - I'm not seeing it. * Thorsten -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] (no subject)
Hi, > Allowing a decoupling between the Skydome and the ligthfield/haze > shaders, > would lead only to inconsistent settings, and useless bug reports from > users > blindingly enabling every switch available to them. ... > I hope you can now better understand the reasoning behind this. Thanks, that's now an answer I was looking for. Though I'm sure we will get bug reports as well by users complaining where the shader from 2.6.0 went, or why shaders won't work. Some of this confusion was already visible in the forum. Heiko still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader menu structure
On Wednesday 27 June 2012 18:39:30 Heiko Schulz wrote: > Hello all, > > > I think the problem now is that the nice scatter effect sky dome no longer > > works correctly with any render mode in the git version. The scatter > > effect sky dome will give you very pretty skies -- especially in > > combination with advanced rendering, just don't look at the terrain or > > your > > own aircraft model because those are now rendered incorrectly with many > > missing effects. > > With disabling the predicate section I got a middle thing between (no FGFS > Default Skydome). Sky scattering with pretty skies and fog in near distance > and all other shaders working, but bad horizon at far distance and other > features like terrain haze missing. > > Thorsten's Athmosphere effect enabled: > http://www.hoerbird.net/fgfs-screen-764.jpg > > Not enabled, but with disabled predicate section: > http://www.hoerbird.net/fgfs-screen-763.jpg > http://www.hoerbird.net/fgfs-screen-768.jpg > > Surely there is now way? > > Cheers > Heiko Hi Heiko, Unless the same fogging technique is used you'll see the tile edges in very low/ very high visibility conditions, or from high altitudes, or some other artefacts. Allowing a decoupling between the Skydome and the ligthfield/haze shaders, would lead only to inconsistent settings, and useless bug reports from users blindingly enabling every switch available to them. The current effect scheme and the corresponding dialog options tries to prevent this, and tries to use a consistent set of shaders. This is extended to the options available when Rembrandt is enabled too (i.e. it doesn't allow you to enabe the light scattering shaders when Rembrandt is active since those aren't ported, and don't display right, or any other shader that isn't ported yet). This doesn't work quite right yet, as others have mentioned here, but Gijs is aware of that. I hope you can now better understand the reasoning behind this. Regards, Emilian -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader menu structure
Hello all, > I think the problem now is that the nice scatter effect sky dome no longer > works correctly with any render mode in the git version. The scatter > effect sky dome will give you very pretty skies -- especially in > combination with advanced rendering, just don't look at the terrain or > your > own aircraft model because those are now rendered incorrectly with many > missing effects. With disabling the predicate section I got a middle thing between (no FGFS Default Skydome). Sky scattering with pretty skies and fog in near distance and all other shaders working, but bad horizon at far distance and other features like terrain haze missing. Thorsten's Athmosphere effect enabled: http://www.hoerbird.net/fgfs-screen-764.jpg Not enabled, but with disabled predicate section: http://www.hoerbird.net/fgfs-screen-763.jpg http://www.hoerbird.net/fgfs-screen-768.jpg Surely there is now way? Cheers Heiko still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader menu structure
On Wednesday 27 June 2012 16:37:11 Heiko Schulz wrote: > > Is there a way we can have all three possibilities (default, skydome shader, > Thorstens atmospheric light scattering) selectable? > > Cheers > Heiko Not quite, since both terrain-default and model-default effects have a separate set of shaders which gets enabled by that switch, and overrides all other shaders (they are defined in a lower numbered technique, and thus take precedence over any technique defined in effects derived from those two) The dialog options reflect the actual behaviour of the effects. Regards, Emilian -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader menu structure
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Renk Thorsten wrote: > > Is there a way we can have all three possibilities (default, skydome > > shader, Thorstens atmospheric light scattering) selectable? > > Atmospheric light scattering should not be thought as different from > skydome shader - it is the terrain/model/whatnot shader combination > consistent with the skydome shader (and having the skydome shader not > creating mismatches with terrain was the original motivation for developing > the atmospheric scattering framework). > > The 2.6 scheme to have a skydome not matching terrain did not only have > issues at high altitudes, it also could not handle poor visibility or > sunrise/sunset lighting in any reasonable way. Not allowing to switch a > skydome inconsistent with the rest of the scene on is not a regression, it > is a bugfix in my opinion :-) > I think the problem now is that the nice scatter effect sky dome no longer works correctly with any render mode in the git version. The scatter effect sky dome will give you very pretty skies -- especially in combination with advanced rendering, just don't look at the terrain or your own aircraft model because those are now rendered incorrectly with many missing effects. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/ http://www.flightgear.org - http://gallinazo.flightgear.org -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader menu structure
> Is there a way we can have all three possibilities (default, skydome > shader, Thorstens atmospheric light scattering) selectable? Atmospheric light scattering should not be thought as different from skydome shader - it is the terrain/model/whatnot shader combination consistent with the skydome shader (and having the skydome shader not creating mismatches with terrain was the original motivation for developing the atmospheric scattering framework). The 2.6 scheme to have a skydome not matching terrain did not only have issues at high altitudes, it also could not handle poor visibility or sunrise/sunset lighting in any reasonable way. Not allowing to switch a skydome inconsistent with the rest of the scene on is not a regression, it is a bugfix in my opinion :-) Just my two cents... * Thorsten -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Shader menu structure
Hello, I noticed today that we can only decide between Thorstens Athmospheric Light scattering which disables other shaders, or FlightGear's Non-shaded Skydome. For me it is a regression compared with 2.6.0. So for me I have disabled the "predicate"-section in skydome.eff which enables the Athmospheric Light scatteringr as default without disabling other shaders.(while skdome shader disabled in the rendering menu). Looks good at low flightlevels, known issues at higher levels. When enabling now in the rendering-menu the skydome-shader I get now Thorstens full Athmospheric Light scattering, but other shaders are disabled. Is there a way we can have all three possibilities (default, skydome shader, Thorstens atmospheric light scattering) selectable? Cheers Heiko still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] An empassioned plea
On Wed, 2012-06-27 at 14:13 +0100, Alasdair wrote: > > OK, sorry for the noise. I was all those random buildings. With the > maximum setting of 5.0, FG uses a massive 6.3 GB of memory on another > machine. Setting it to 0, the memory usage drops to a more reasonable > 1.6GB. I wonder if there could be any way of storing just on instance > of each building type, regardless of the number of times this was > duplicated throughout a city? This is probably an insane question since > I know absolutely nothing about graphics :( > > Regards, Alasdair Forget all this! I just found a thread on this very subject. Been away a while, so have not caught up with all the Fg-dev mail. AC -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] An empassioned plea
On Wed, 2012-06-27 at 10:45 +0100, Alasdair wrote: > After yesterday's git pulls, Flightgear will no longer run at KSFO, > having > exhausted my 4G of memory and a good load of swap space as well. > Indeed, until I increased the amount of swap, it just died with an > unceremonious > "Killed" message. Runs fine at my local airport EGPF. > Is there a way I can limit the amount of scenery being loaded? I have > tried using --visibility-miles=10, but it still just goes on loading > dozens of > stg files. > Can anyone offer me a solution to this perplexing problem? > > Regards, Alasdair OK, sorry for the noise. I was all those random buildings. With the maximum setting of 5.0, FG uses a massive 6.3 GB of memory on another machine. Setting it to 0, the memory usage drops to a more reasonable 1.6GB. I wonder if there could be any way of storing just on instance of each building type, regardless of the number of times this was duplicated throughout a city? This is probably an insane question since I know absolutely nothing about graphics :( Regards, Alasdair -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] An empassioned plea
On Fri, 2012-05-04 at 20:40 +0200, flightg...@sablonier.ch wrote: > > > > Selectively disabling features is probably not going to work reasonable > > as long as the features in question are required to play nice in order > > to get disabled, there's no such infrastructure as a "kill-switch" to > > prevent the use/loading of *any* shaders (or whichever additional > > feature). > > Personally, I think the problem is that easy enabling/disabling shaders > goes along discussion of personal preferences and technical/graphical > "wow!"-game-competition of some developers temporary, and not along other > discussion. The effects and shader inheriting system is not used as it > could for such switches, at least for me. > > But dont get this wrong, because it might be right in sense of moving > forward in such a project ! Its just a lazy comment of a man with varying > interest, trying to follow every graphical enhancement the last years. > > Cheers, Yves > After yesterday's git pulls, Flightgear will no longer run at KSFO, having exhausted my 4G of memory and a good load of swap space as well. Indeed, until I increased the amount of swap, it just died with an unceremonious "Killed" message. Runs fine at my local airport EGPF. Is there a way I can limit the amount of scenery being loaded? I have tried using --visibility-miles=10, but it still just goes on loading dozens of stg files. Can anyone offer me a solution to this perplexing problem? Regards, Alasdair > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
