Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread David Megginson
On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Ron Jensen w...@jentronics.com wrote:

 I still support the idea common  shared directories idea for such things as
 instruments

 This is a nice, happy thought.  But in the real world it hasn't worked
 out so well.  Since we model such a huge variety of aircraft, and
 different FDMs and systems provide different outputs, our common
 instrument folders would need to be huge to cover all the different
 kinds of instruments, plus variations and modifications to fit each
 individual aircraft's structure.  It makes more sense to me to house
 each instrument with its aircraft.

In real life, very, very few instruments are customized for each plane
(the airspeed indicator, with its speed markings, is the obvious
example).  Most are manufactured by independent companies and are
TSO'd, so that they can be used in hundreds of different aircraft
models.  Ditto for most avionics, aside from some glass panels, etc.

A Sigma-Tek attitude gyro, for example, looks and works pretty-much
the same as a primary instrument for a Cessna 150 or as a backup
instrument on a 747 -- the differences (such as different voltage for
the backlighting) are pretty trivial.  I'd hate to see 100 copies of
the same Sigma-Tek attitude gyro in the base package.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread Torsten Dreyer
 A Sigma-Tek attitude gyro, for example, looks and works pretty-much
 the same as a primary instrument for a Cessna 150 or as a backup
 instrument on a 747 -- the differences (such as different voltage for
 the backlighting) are pretty trivial.  I'd hate to see 100 copies of
 the same Sigma-Tek attitude gyro in the base package.
What we probably need for shared instruments is a well defined set of 
properties for each instrument. Currently most of our instruments animations 
are tied directly to the output properties of the signal source. In vor.xml 
the TO-flag is animated from /instrumentation/nav[0]/to-flag. It's only usable 
for nav1 and a second set of animation xml is needed for nav2.  What we need 
are unique properties for each instrument that are responsible for the 
animation of the instrument on on side and unique properties that reflect some 
state (like a TO-flag signal) on the other side. What's left for the A/C 
designer is the linkage between these two side.
When you buy the Sigma-Tek attitude gyro at you local avionics dealer (the 
base package), you get your device with a well known interface connector and 
your avionics technician (A/C designer) needs to do the wiring.
Almost everything needed for that three-tier-design is already in fg. 
Probably we need some kind of relative mount point, so a single vor.xml can 
be loaded (mounted) into /instrumentation/vor-indicator[0] and 
/instrumentation/vor-indicator[1].

Torsten

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread David Megginson
Something I'd love to see, in the long term, is a GUI that allows
users to customize their panels, just like real aircraft owners do. I
could decide to install a different brand of TC (the default late
1970s Cessna 172P now has a vintage 1950s needle and ball instead of a
TC -- cool, but what's up with that?), upgrade or downgrade the GPS,
swap out radios, etc.  That would be especially attractive for flight
schools and students, since they could match the panels of their
actual aircraft pretty closely.


All the best,


David

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Torsten Dreyer tors...@t3r.de wrote:
 A Sigma-Tek attitude gyro, for example, looks and works pretty-much
 the same as a primary instrument for a Cessna 150 or as a backup
 instrument on a 747 -- the differences (such as different voltage for
 the backlighting) are pretty trivial.  I'd hate to see 100 copies of
 the same Sigma-Tek attitude gyro in the base package.
 What we probably need for shared instruments is a well defined set of
 properties for each instrument. Currently most of our instruments animations
 are tied directly to the output properties of the signal source. In vor.xml
 the TO-flag is animated from /instrumentation/nav[0]/to-flag. It's only usable
 for nav1 and a second set of animation xml is needed for nav2.  What we need
 are unique properties for each instrument that are responsible for the
 animation of the instrument on on side and unique properties that reflect some
 state (like a TO-flag signal) on the other side. What's left for the A/C
 designer is the linkage between these two side.
 When you buy the Sigma-Tek attitude gyro at you local avionics dealer (the
 base package), you get your device with a well known interface connector and
 your avionics technician (A/C designer) needs to do the wiring.
 Almost everything needed for that three-tier-design is already in fg.
 Probably we need some kind of relative mount point, so a single vor.xml can
 be loaded (mounted) into /instrumentation/vor-indicator[0] and
 /instrumentation/vor-indicator[1].

 Torsten

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread Ron Jensen
On Sat, 2010-02-27 at 07:56 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Ron Jensen w...@jentronics.com wrote:
 
  I still support the idea common  shared directories idea for such things as
  instruments
 
  This is a nice, happy thought.  But in the real world it hasn't worked
  out so well.  Since we model such a huge variety of aircraft, and
  different FDMs and systems provide different outputs, our common
  instrument folders would need to be huge to cover all the different
  kinds of instruments, plus variations and modifications to fit each
  individual aircraft's structure.  It makes more sense to me to house
  each instrument with its aircraft.
 
 In real life, very, very few instruments are customized for each plane
 (the airspeed indicator, with its speed markings, is the obvious
 example).  Most are manufactured by independent companies and are
 TSO'd, so that they can be used in hundreds of different aircraft
 models.  Ditto for most avionics, aside from some glass panels, etc.

 A Sigma-Tek attitude gyro, for example, looks and works pretty-much
 the same as a primary instrument for a Cessna 150 or as a backup
 instrument on a 747 -- the differences (such as different voltage for
 the backlighting) are pretty trivial.  I'd hate to see 100 copies of
 the same Sigma-Tek attitude gyro in the base package.

Those trivial differences are enough to make the instrument not work
properly in an aircraft, though.  I've spent a lot of time installing 5V
light bulbs in avionics equipment that came rigged for 28V lighting.

In FlightGear we have a problem in the common instruments-3d that many
instruments use funky properties for their panel lighting
(/sim/model//material/instruments/factor
or /controls/lighting/instruments-norm) instead of a more
sensical /systems/electrical/output/instruments- and then the is the
argument about that being a -norm or a -volts.  So to avoid duplicating
instruments we'd be forced to create and maintain 3 or 4 properties to
drive different instruments.  I'll sacrifice disk-space for frame-rate,
thank you.  Last time I changed an (my) instrument in Instruments-3D
there were howls of anguish.

DCulp has packaged his common instruments in his DavePack aircraft,
and that works pretty well, but I still believe the aircraft maintainer
should have the right to keep his instruments with his aircraft, even if
there is some duplication.

Thanks,
Ron

 



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread syd adams
Ewww , a GUI to do this ?
Its already pretty easy to point the model section to a different
instrument , and the one Im currently working on , Im creating several panel
files with different layouts that can be selected in the set file , but I'd
hate to see instruments being changeable while in flight 
Just my thoughts on the matter :)
Syd

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:16 AM, David Megginson
david.meggin...@gmail.comwrote:

 Something I'd love to see, in the long term, is a GUI that allows
 users to customize their panels, just like real aircraft owners do. I
 could decide to install a different brand of TC (the default late
 1970s Cessna 172P now has a vintage 1950s needle and ball instead of a
 TC -- cool, but what's up with that?), upgrade or downgrade the GPS,
 swap out radios, etc.  That would be especially attractive for flight
 schools and students, since they could match the panels of their
 actual aircraft pretty closely.


 All the best,


 David

 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Torsten Dreyer tors...@t3r.de wrote:
  A Sigma-Tek attitude gyro, for example, looks and works pretty-much
  the same as a primary instrument for a Cessna 150 or as a backup
  instrument on a 747 -- the differences (such as different voltage for
  the backlighting) are pretty trivial.  I'd hate to see 100 copies of
  the same Sigma-Tek attitude gyro in the base package.
  What we probably need for shared instruments is a well defined set of
  properties for each instrument. Currently most of our instruments
 animations
  are tied directly to the output properties of the signal source. In
 vor.xml
  the TO-flag is animated from /instrumentation/nav[0]/to-flag. It's only
 usable
  for nav1 and a second set of animation xml is needed for nav2.  What we
 need
  are unique properties for each instrument that are responsible for the
  animation of the instrument on on side and unique properties that reflect
 some
  state (like a TO-flag signal) on the other side. What's left for the A/C
  designer is the linkage between these two side.
  When you buy the Sigma-Tek attitude gyro at you local avionics dealer
 (the
  base package), you get your device with a well known interface connector
 and
  your avionics technician (A/C designer) needs to do the wiring.
  Almost everything needed for that three-tier-design is already in fg.
  Probably we need some kind of relative mount point, so a single vor.xml
 can
  be loaded (mounted) into /instrumentation/vor-indicator[0] and
  /instrumentation/vor-indicator[1].
 
  Torsten
 
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread syd adams
I think I misunderstood you ... a graphical tool to do this would certainly
speed things up ... currently I used a dummy panel in Blender to find
positions.
 I though you meant from the runtime menu :).
Syd


On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:23 AM, David Megginson david.meggin...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 2:10 PM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote:

  Its already pretty easy to point the model section to a different
  instrument , and the one Im currently working on , Im creating several
 panel
  files with different layouts that can be selected in the set file , but
 I'd
  hate to see instruments being changeable while in flight 

 Making changes in an XML file is certainly simpler than writing C++
 code -- that's why I wrote the XML property system -- but eventually,
 we'll want to let less technical people make configuration changes as
 well.  It's not a short-term goal, but something interesting to keep
 in mind, all the same.


 All the best,


 David


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread Curtis Olson
Could certainly be done ... perhaps (although maybe a little awkwardly ...
or not?) using the FlightGear gui and nasal infrastructure.

I'm envisioning the 2d panel structure I guess ... probably would be more
complicated with 3d panels.

Curt.


On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 2:26 PM, syd adams wrote:

 I think I misunderstood you ... a graphical tool to do this would certainly
 speed things up ... currently I used a dummy panel in Blender to find
 positions.
  I though you meant from the runtime menu :).


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread Gary Neely
I don't know about dynamic positioning of instruments, but I would
find it interesting to have an easy method of selecting alternate
instruments for the same position. For example, I have several
attitude indicator variations that could be used based on period or
pilot/owner preference. This would have application in aircraft like
the Grumman Goose, which spans many decades of instrument development.

It would be interesting to have a menu of instrument choices that I
could then be saved with other user preferencess. Other than including
the different instruments in the same xml/model package, which is
clearly not the goal, I don't know how to do this, especially without
burdening the system by loading instrument resources that are not
used. Currently to do this I write up a little how-to for pulling in a
different instrument in the relevant xml, but many folks don't read
those details and perhaps miss the configuration possibilities. It
would be great to offer an easier more dynamic scheme.

-Gary


On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 3:58 PM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote:
 I can see 3d instruments being easier  position them on the panel with a
 mouse click then drag them like i did the b1900d manual ... or menu buttons
 in a dialog like the ufo does scenery objects for finer adjustments ...
 I suppose the 2d instrument placement would be almost the same...
 Dont know if I like the idea of moving instruments around in flight , but
 then I guess the new arrangement would need to be written to a file to be
 permenant .
 Cheers

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-27 Thread syd adams
Interesting idea... Ive got  a panel file for each panel layout , but that
changes the entire instrument positions and types , not individual
instruments ...
Might be tricky unless the instrument selection is from the Instruments-3d
folder ...
Just thinking out loud here :)
Syd

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Gary Neely grne...@gmail.com wrote:

 I don't know about dynamic positioning of instruments, but I would
 find it interesting to have an easy method of selecting alternate
 instruments for the same position. For example, I have several
 attitude indicator variations that could be used based on period or
 pilot/owner preference. This would have application in aircraft like
 the Grumman Goose, which spans many decades of instrument development.

 It would be interesting to have a menu of instrument choices that I
 could then be saved with other user preferencess. Other than including
 the different instruments in the same xml/model package, which is
 clearly not the goal, I don't know how to do this, especially without
 burdening the system by loading instrument resources that are not
 used. Currently to do this I write up a little how-to for pulling in a
 different instrument in the relevant xml, but many folks don't read
 those details and perhaps miss the configuration possibilities. It
 would be great to offer an easier more dynamic scheme.

 -Gary


 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 3:58 PM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote:
  I can see 3d instruments being easier  position them on the panel
 with a
  mouse click then drag them like i did the b1900d manual ... or menu
 buttons
  in a dialog like the ufo does scenery objects for finer adjustments ...
  I suppose the 2d instrument placement would be almost the same...
  Dont know if I like the idea of moving instruments around in flight , but
  then I guess the new arrangement would need to be written to a file to be
  permenant .
  Cheers


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-26 Thread Stefan Seifert
On Friday 26 February 2010 17:16:38 Detlef Faber wrote:

 I guess most duplicate files are instruments which are not in the
 generic folder.
 Of course it would be desireable to have them all in one place and
 reference to there, but that would cause severe problems with the
 aircraft downloads, because every aircraft on the download page would
 need a second package for instruments which are not in the Base
 package.
 Including all these Instruments in the Base Package would greatly
 increase the download size.

This repeatedly strikes me as problems that Linux packages managers have 
solved completely, elegantly and simply a long time ago. They support 
dependencies, so commonly used parts only have to be installed once. They 
support versioning, making upgrades simple and safe by for example not 
allowing binaries to be installed alongside incompatible data. With systems 
like the openSUSE build service, users can even create their own repositories 
and link to others. Those systems even support mirrors to spread downloads.

Maybe it's time to use what's already there?

Stefan

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-26 Thread Alan Teeder

--
From: Stefan Seifert n...@detonation.org
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:26 PM
To: FlightGear developers discussions 
flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package
 This repeatedly strikes me as problems that Linux packages managers have
 solved completely, elegantly and simply a long time ago. They support
 dependencies, so commonly used parts only have to be installed once. They
 support versioning, making upgrades simple and safe by for example not
 allowing binaries to be installed alongside incompatible data. With 
 systems
 like the openSUSE build service, users can even create their own 
 repositories
 and link to others. Those systems even support mirrors to spread 
 downloads.

 Maybe it's time to use what's already there?

One problem which springs to mind is that there must be many same name files 
(e.g. HSI.xml and its related HSI.ac) which are specific to one aircraft and 
are in fact entirely different.

These will need to be renamed per aircraft  (e.g SpitfireMKX.HSI) or per 
instrument manufacturer (e.g. FD108HSI).

However if a common library could be set up a great saving would be made, 
not only in unused duplicates, but in the ability of designers to find 
already completed instruments. 


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-26 Thread Gene Buckle
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Alan Teeder wrote:

 Maybe it's time to use what's already there?

 One problem which springs to mind is that there must be many same name files
 (e.g. HSI.xml and its related HSI.ac) which are specific to one aircraft and
 are in fact entirely different.

 These will need to be renamed per aircraft  (e.g SpitfireMKX.HSI) or per
 instrument manufacturer (e.g. FD108HSI).

It's my understanding that the duplicate checker operates on checksums not 
filenames.

g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-26 Thread Alan Teeder

--
From: Gene Buckle ge...@deltasoft.com
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:29 PM
To: FlightGear developers discussions 
flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

 On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Alan Teeder wrote:

 Maybe it's time to use what's already there?

 One problem which springs to mind is that there must be many same name 
 files
 (e.g. HSI.xml and its related HSI.ac) which are specific to one aircraft 
 and
 are in fact entirely different.

 These will need to be renamed per aircraft  (e.g SpitfireMKX.HSI) or per
 instrument manufacturer (e.g. FD108HSI).

 It's my understanding that the duplicate checker operates on checksums not
 filenames.


Apologies.

The upper-lower case duplicate name problem was in my stupid head.

I still support the idea common  shared directories idea for such things as 
instruments

Alan 


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-26 Thread Ron Jensen
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 21:13 +, Alan Teeder wrote:

 I still support the idea common  shared directories idea for such things as 
 instruments
 
 Alan 

This is a nice, happy thought.  But in the real world it hasn't worked
out so well.  Since we model such a huge variety of aircraft, and
different FDMs and systems provide different outputs, our common
instrument folders would need to be huge to cover all the different
kinds of instruments, plus variations and modifications to fit each
individual aircraft's structure.  It makes more sense to me to house
each instrument with its aircraft.

Also, each instrument is commonly comprised of three separate files, the
texture (png), the model (ac) and the animations (xml).  Needing a
change in any one of these really necessitates all three being in the
same place.  So even if the texture and the model are the same, using a
different animation file means the .png and .ac are duplicates, its
true, but this also ensures the model and or texture don't change in
ways that are incompatible with the animation file.  


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-25 Thread syd adams
I agree , there's a lot of duplication ,(in instruments, too) but I think
the problem is author's tastes ...
I've duplicated textures because I dont care for the look , or style ,
etc,of existing ones and Im sure that's the same for other contributors.
So it might be a problem deciding who's get's used, and how many duplicates
pop up in that folder  :).
But it would be nice to solve this one...
Cheers

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Roy Vegard Ovesen roy.v.ove...@haugnett.no
 wrote:

 FSlint reports that the base package, or the data directory, contains quite
 a
 lot of duplicate files. The file that is wasting the most bytes is
 glass_shader.png (some instances named glass.png) with 43 974 656 bytes, or
 around 45MB. This file is duplicated 89 times. The second biggest waster is
 shader.png (here too some instances are named glass.png) with 31 457 280
 bytes
 and 641 instances.

 Running fdupes in the data directory reports that duplicate files occupy
 about
 420 megabytes of the 2.7 Gig. Thats roughly 15% (if my math is correct).

 Many of the duplicate files seem to be textures. This begs the question:
 would
 it be better to have a directory $FG_ROOT/Aircraft/Textures where one would
 put textures that are shared by several aircraft? There already is a
 $FG_ROOT/Textures directory, but this seems to contain only non-aircraft
 textures.

 Comments?

 --
 Roy Vegard


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Duplicate files in base package

2010-02-25 Thread Roy Vegard Ovesen
On Friday February 26 2010 02:18:30 syd adams wrote:
 I agree , there's a lot of duplication ,(in instruments, too) but I think
 the problem is author's tastes ...
 I've duplicated textures because I dont care for the look , or style ,
 etc,of existing ones and Im sure that's the same for other contributors.

I've only considered files that are bit-by-bit identical (identical SHA1 
checksum). If in your example you've duplicated a bitmap from another aircraft 
and then changed the file, then it is not considered a duplicate.

 So it might be a problem deciding who's get's used, and how many duplicates
 pop up in that folder  :).
 But it would be nice to solve this one...
 Cheers
 

-- 
Roy Vegard

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