Re: "Private Foundation-List" Petition for referendum

[Jeff Waugh]

> [/me removes board hat]
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I like to ask for your support in my petition for referendum to make
> foundation-list archives private and membership limited to actual
> Foundation members.  If we make that change we would be able to discuss
> matters freely without making lots of news that more often than not are
> harmful to our image to the world in general.
>
> Please sign here:  http://live.gnome.org/PrivateFoundationListPetition
>
> We would need 35 to 40 signatures to put this to vote.

Changing the existing foundation-list to private: I would hate to see the
GNOME community move towards non-transparency largely due to the efforts of
an ambulance-chasing "trollumnist", and no other credible media (because
they rightly don't regard any of this as "news"). Don't over-compensate
because an idiot with a platform got his latest non-story about Open Source
people and arguments onto Slashdot (of all places).

New private mailing list for Foundation members: Much like gnome-private of
yore, everyone will still chatter on the public list because it's easier and
more useful to post there, and practically impossible to move threads away
from the public list once they've started. By all means, rename the unused
gnome-private to foundation-private, but I'm sure it'll stay as dead as it
has for *years* now.


So a sensible discussion was run off the rails by argumentative boofheads --
happens all the time, and most of the adults in the GNOME community know who
the boofheads are (which is why practically the entire board didn't pay
attention to the thread until it went off the rails; unfortunate, but there
it is).

Everyone should be embarrassed by momentary lapses of sanity like this. But
it has happened before, it'll happen again, and it barely registers on the
radar compared to the great work being done towards GNOME's mission.


Remember your priorities and carry on. None of this is worth your time.

- Jeff

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Re: board meeting quasi-minutes, May 14th and 21st, 2008

[Jeff Waugh]

> On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 2:37 AM, Luis Villa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The board had meetings on the 14th and 21st to discuss a confidential
> > matter which the board hopes to disclose in the near future. No minutes
> > were taken because of the confidential nature of the meetings,
> 
> No minutes were taken at all, or none will be posted for now? This seems
> like it could be a bad thing, but I'll reserve any further comment until I
> see what happens once this matter presents itself.

Notes were taken for a particular purpose, but these were not conventional
(or official) meetings of the board which required minuting. Luis brought
them up here because we felt it was important to mention that we had the 
meetings, and at least one of these replaced a regular board meeting. When
the item comes to fruition, it will be raised, decided and minuted in an
official board meeting. This will be soon. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Call for hosts for GUADEC 2009

[Jeff Waugh]

> I currently don't like the fact that no one can even consider working in
> such a proposal.

I think it's possible, but there's little incentive to right now, because
it seems so unlikely that it would succeed. If there was a bid that might
succeed, it would be a cheap location (in terms of travel and event budget)
pushing on the boundaries of Europe. Some might suggest that Turkey fits
that description. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Call for hosts for GUADEC 2009

[Jeff Waugh]

> Sorry, to step into this discussion, but I would really like to point out
> that every part of the world may have a gnome conference, even an
> important or *the* GNOME conference. But why can we keep GUADEC the
> "european" conference?
> 
> If you want to do a GUAD*C at any other place of the world, I am fully ok
> with that but let's keep one GNOME conference in europe as there is a huge
> community there.

100% agree. This is the principle that underlines my (apparently now noted)
"conservatism" on this issue... and why GNOME.conf.au exists. :-)

> Nevertheless, we would need some host applications anyway, before we can
> discuss the place further.

Ahoy! Get those applications in, mateys!

- Jeff

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Re: Call for hosts for GUADEC 2009

[Jeff Waugh]

> Where in the world with the highest concentration of GNOME and KDE
> community? This thread has so far been considering the GNOME community
> only.

Both communities have their strongest presence in Europe.

- Jeff

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Re: Call for hosts for GUADEC 2009

[Jeff Waugh]

> Americans might feel that it is a little unfair that guadec always is in
> Europe. Couldn't there be two conferences?

GUADEC and the Boston Summit. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Call for hosts for GUADEC 2009

[Jeff Waugh]

> 
> 
> > Is the rule about having GUADEC in Europe rather than, say, in Bangalore
> > still in play, by the way?
> 
> The 'E' still stands for Europe, yeah. ;-)

Aha, was this more in reference to the text of the CfH? In that case, it's a
minor disconnect between norms of each organisation and conference, not well
expressed in the CfH (I don't think anyone noticed it).

Speaking only for myself, not for either organisation involved in the CfH...
It would take a lot to convince me that we should hold GUADEC outside Europe
even if we had a neat GUADEC+Akademy proposal for somewhere else.

And I say that as someone who is not particularly close to Europe (let alone
anywhere else on the planet I guess). ;-)

- Jeff

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Re: Call for hosts for GUADEC 2009

[Jeff Waugh]

> Is the rule about having GUADEC in Europe rather than, say, in Bangalore
> still in play, by the way?

The 'E' still stands for Europe, yeah. ;-)

- Jeff

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Re: Minutes for Directors Meeting of Feb. 27th, 2008

[Jeff Waugh]

> > No further proof needed...
> 
> The Reply-To header was actually set to your own address, not to that of the
> list. :-)

[ Dave points out that the offending Reply-To was of course on the announce
list email. While entirely intentional, and more effective than setting the
Mail-Followup-To header, it certainly engages the no-opt-out damage pointed
out in 'Reply-To Considered Harmful'. Anyone moderating a GNOME announce
list will know, however, that even that doesn't stop people from replying to
the announcement mailing lists. ;-) ]

- Jeff

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Re: Minutes for Directors Meeting of Feb. 27th, 2008

[Jeff Waugh]

> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> 
> No further proof needed...

The Reply-To header was actually set to your own address, not to that of the
list. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: "Ga-nome" or "NOME"

[Jeff Waugh]

> I have heard a lot of people pronouncing GNOME as Ga-nome and I feel Nome
> is the correct pronunciation.
> 
> Appreciate if someone please advise me which is the correct pronunciation.

When folks ask me about this at conferences and such, I always say, "doesn't
matter how you pronounce it, as long as you love using it", quickly followed
up with, "but GNOME developers say 'guh-nome' because the 'G' comes from the
'GNU' project". :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Re-considering expectnation web service

[Jeff Waugh]

> Some people also suggested expectnation[1] web service, which is backed by
> Edd Dumbill. Followers of Planet GNOME would remember his blog posts about
> it.

Much as I love Edd and his approach to the creation of expectnation, I think
it would be awkward for us to use non-Free software where Free software can
be used, particularly in such a public role (there are other cases for which
I would be willing to use non-Free software for GNOME-related stuff, so this
is not just wild ideological handwaving).

We could implement the software used for linux.conf.au over the last couple
of years, which includes paper submission, review and delegate registration,
and has been integrated with two different content mangement systems, so we
could continue using Drupal, or switch to Moin or possibly even Plone. That
would be a great way of supporting a Free Software ecosystem as well as
satisfying our needs. :-)

There are also various things we could do with Drupal, simple and sufficient
for our needs, that might be better than what we already have.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> I think any sort of editorial control other than good old individuals
> common sense would break this spirit.

The 'editorial control' I speak of is *only* about whose blogs are included
on Planet GNOME, not what they write once they are included.

> I believe what is at issue here is that there are those who felt they
> deserved to be on Planet GNOME but never got any answers yay or nay to
> their queries.

Very, very few have 'never' got answers. Some have received delayed answers,
due to maintainer busyness, email load and travelling. That's the issue I'm
dealing with re: published guidelines and maintainership team. Some believe
that "just putting it in SVN" (which it already is) or "just doing requests
via bugzilla" will solve everything. Sadly, that's not the case. A very tiny
number regard these things as some form of censorship. I can't resolve that
kind of irrational response. An even smaller number think they should be on
Planet GNOME because they write rants about GNOME or KDE and think that's an
important contribution. That was never the intention of Planet GNOME. :-) A
substantial proportion of these issues have already been discussed in this
thread.

So, as the board noted earlier, I understand the problems, and have a plan
to deal with them based on the positive contributions to the discussion. I
will keep going with that.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> You've been asked to be more open, don't get annoyed if people are pissed
> by closed non-answers!

I'm mostly annoyed at the attitude rather than the questions (even the ones
that have already been answered). I don't really feel an obligation to give
answers to people who have negative intent, which I know many onlookers can
appreciate. I'm writing an email now that will resolve some of these issues,
with the knowledge that nothing will satisfy those who want negativity more
than they want resolution. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> Ok... what exactly is wrong with my usage of "effort"?

Sorry, I should have avoided responding to the trolling in the first place.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> On Dec 14, 2007 10:54 PM, Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Please don't turn this into something it is not. I had already been
> > working on this before threads on this list, and before Federico's
> > recent mails. It is not particularly motivating to see the issue
> > approached in this way.
> 
> Dude, stop reading into the lines. I am interested in this and that is
> that!

You thanked Federico for his "efforts". That's what I read, and that's what
I responded to.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> But please don't ignore the question I asked:
> 
> Who's on the "potential maintainership team" for PGO, so that we may
> inquire them about the progress?

Sorry, but I'm not going to get caught up in pointless crap like this. Some
folks may think it's okay to treat me differently as a result of attempted
character assassination, but you should know better Federico.

I've already said -- before your emails and after them -- that I'm writing
down the guidelines and will have a maintainership team in order to resolve
the minor maintenance issues with Planet GNOME. The potential co-maintainers
have already had experience doing so, and were asked months ago.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> Federico,
> 
> Thank you for spearheading this.

Please don't turn this into something it is not. I had already been working
on this before threads on this list, and before Federico's recent mails. It
is not particularly motivating to see the issue approached in this way.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> What I want to resolve is this:

So do I, as already noted.

> "Sucking guidelines out of my head" --- that's exactly the kind of problem
> we need to solve.

That's why I mentioned it.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> > It's somewhat more intricate than that -- I'm writing it up atm, so
> > people can understand the decision making process (guidelines). That's
> > the first step. :-)
> 
> Ping.  Any progress on this, so the editorial policy can be linked from
> Planet?
> 
> Also, Dave's idea about having a co-maintainer for Planet didn't get any
> replies:
> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2007-September/msg00103.html
> 
> When a code module's maintainership is sucking, what we do is let someone
> else take over.  The planet-web module shouldn't be an exception.
> 
> [Yes, I'm volunteering for the co-maintainer position of Planet.]

I missed this at the bottom of the thread. Thanks for pointing it out to me
on IRC.

The module's maintainership isn't sucking in general, but there have been a
number of periods in which it hasn't been great. Please don't make this out
to be worse than it is, that kind of approach doesn't help resolve anything.

I've spoken to potential maintainership team members who already have direct
experience with pgo maintenance, and have been working on sucking guidelines
out of my head and into publishable form. What you're asking for is already
on the way.

Thanks,

- Jeff

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Re: Foundation misattribution

[Jeff Waugh]

> I'm spending a lot of time and energies advocating for free software and
> open standards in my job at Nokia. I won't go to Slashdot or even here to
> explain details about my life. Surely I have written in public pages more
> stuff that could be decontextualized and quoted against GNOME. And against
> Nokia too, it's just a matter of searching with sensationalism in mind.
> The alternative would be to stay quiet and work only indoors. Not my
> style, though.

Horrible that we have to deal with more irrelevant mudslinging at our GNOME
friends, who we know to be dedicated to Software Freedom, because the shrill
voiced flamers can't differentiate between personal goals and corporate
goals (let alone completely different people with different responsibilities
and little-to-no connection).

I'm not sure why there is such a desire to smear individuals and divide our
community over issues like these. It smacks of a lack of critical analysis
and ability to understand relationships and intent.

Quim: Note that it was the poster rather than Zonk who mentioned you, and it
was Sam Varghese (with well known bias and lack of professionalism compared
to other FLOSS-focused journalists) who wrote the ITwire article.

I'm pleased that the Slashdot comments are more positive and show more
attention to detail than the poster who suggested the story. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Vote the logo for GNOME Asia Summit -- Deadline is 9th Dec, 2007

[Jeff Waugh]

> > These are all really cool -- it was hard to choose a favourite to vote
> > for!
> > 
> > Minor comment: Once you've chosen the style, please fix the text to use
> > the GNOME logo typeface (modified Trebuchet MS Bold, see the M)
> 
> Actually it's Bitstream Vera Sans Bold modified. :)

Yeah -- I was just about to mail you about updating the brand book, as I
realised I was talking crap after referring to it. ;-) The SVG booklet you
made is delicious, and with improved pango/pdf code since last year, we can
now publish it as a PDF nicely... Then the Foundation can finally bless it
for reals! :-)

If you need a hand, or have any open questions before nailing it down, let
me know.

- Jeff

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Re: Vote the logo for GNOME Asia Summit -- Deadline is 9th Dec, 2007

[Jeff Waugh]

> Please vote your favorite logo for GNOME Asia Summit from here :
> 
> http://www.gnome-cn.org/gnome-asia-submit/gas-logo-vote/
> 
> Thanks for Yang Hong's great help on build this vote system!
> 
> We will announce the final logo on Monday, the winner will get free 
> registration to GNOME Asia Summit, Beijing 2008.

Ni hao,

These are all really cool -- it was hard to choose a favourite to vote for!

Minor comment: Once you've chosen the style, please fix the text to use the
GNOME logo typeface (modified Trebuchet MS Bold, see the M) from the SVGs on
the Brand Guidelines page , and the
subtype font should be Bitstream Vera Sans Roman.

Thanks!

- Jeff

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Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?

[Jeff Waugh]

> I don't recall that any candidate explicily rejected supporting the free
> software movement by means other than improving the attractiveness and
> success of GNOME.  But several candidates answered in a way that seemed to
> pointedly imply a rejection of any such form of support for the community.

I answered about the success of GNOME, mostly because I didn't read what you
now raise as the point of your original question.

- Jeff

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Re: Question for the candidates [Was: Re: Money spending, questions for the candidates]

[Jeff Waugh]

> Work with the Membership Committee to document their practices and make
> sure they perform them more consistently in future years.

Miss one word and it changes the entire tone... "and help make sure". They
have done a great job this year, though as a result of numerous changes to
the volunteer team a couple of things have been dropped on the floor (such
as question gathering from the community and linking to the election rules
in the announcement). Easy to fix for the future.

It's generally a pretty thankless task, so... thanks to the membership
committee! :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Question for the candidates [Was: Re: Money spending, questions for the candidates]

[Jeff Waugh]

> What will you as a candidate do to make sure we avoid this mess in the
> future?

Work with the Membership Committee to document their practices and make sure
they perform them more consistently in future years.

During the current term, I have already made that you won't have to deal
with this again for 18 months. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME dependent on Mono

[Jeff Waugh]

> And all of this could have been explained just as simply if the folks at
> boycottnovell.com had simply emailed us and asked for details, instead of
> posting unsubstantiated drivel.

Pretty much the crux of the issue with that website. Despite transparency
into the community that they would never get with companies, they do not
actually do any primary research, and have come up with some doozies about
things they simply don't understand.

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME dependent on Mono

[Jeff Waugh]

> On Nov 29, 2007 5:40 PM, Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > If these programs are important enough to deserve the term "miss out
> > > on", then I think they should be written in another language.

Note that the above quote is misattributed, and was stated by Richard, not
me.

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME dependent on Mono

[Jeff Waugh]

> It's been frustrating over the past few years that GNOME hasn't taken a
> firm position on the issue.

Agree.

> I suspect there hasn't been anything firm because (a) there is quite a bit
> of division within the community on the issue and (b) there is some
> element of "walking on eggshells" around Novell and its endorsement of the
> environment.

Agree.

Also, I think much of the issue has moved on from legal paranoia to concerns
about adopting a strategy perceived as Microsoft-friendly (at least among
those who don't adopt a knee-jerk, black-and-white approach to such issues).

> I agree this isn't really something that the foundation can force, but
> even "asking politely" in an official capacity would be a step in the
> right direction.

The Foundation asking politely of developers with regards to their choices,
or Novell (or any developer advocating Mono) asking politely of the GNOME
Foundation with regards to a policy? My feeling on past discussions about
this at the Foundation (or Advisory Board) level is that it has been other
participants, not generally Novell, that have pursued the discussion. Maybe
Novell raising the issue would be a good thing.

- Jeff

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Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?

[Jeff Waugh]

> The reason this is not so is that Microsoft is trying to spin the apparent
> "support" of GNOME into proof that OOXML is not bad for free software.

Microsoft haven't done so publicly thus far, but the risk is there, and we
will endeavour to make it absolutely clear that our participation does not
imply endorsement, contribution or support. We've taken one step already
with our statement on our participation, and you are sure to see more in the
future.

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME dependent on Mono

[Jeff Waugh]

> The more "cool stuff" depends on Mono, the closer we get to a situation
> where a Microsoft attack on Mono would put GNOME in a vice.
> 
> If these programs are important enough to deserve the term "miss out on",
> then I think they should be written in another language.

That is a decision left entirely up to those who create such Free Software.
I don't believe that we can tell them what to do or how to do it. We can ask
politely.

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME dependent on Mono

[Jeff Waugh]

> > libbeagle does not depend on Mono. Perhaps, if the Fedora RPM of
> > libbeagle actually depends on Mono, it needs to be fixed.

> It doesn't.

I am Jack's abject lack of surprise. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME dependent on Mono

[Jeff Waugh]

> > Yelp has had an optional Beagle dependency for at least 2 years. It's
> > optional, and it's not news.
> 
> We need a new RPM in some distributions, as optional dependencies are not
> part of current RPM in Fedora, for instance :)

libbeagle does not depend on Mono. Perhaps, if the Fedora RPM of libbeagle
actually depends on Mono, it needs to be fixed.

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME dependent on Mono

[Jeff Waugh]

> I think you're way too harsh on people who actually concluded things like:

Sorry, but the negativity of that site greatly outweighs the positive. It
takes more than a little sucking up to earn back my respect after the crap
they've been spewing.

- Jeff

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Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?

[Jeff Waugh]

> While this is all technically true, I think it's somewhat misleading,
> based on my recollections, and what I could find in a brief browse of
> the mailing list archives.
> There was much clearer leadership in the community then, but I do not
> believe that the community came to a conclusion that we would cede
> development of a GNOME office to OpenOffice.org.  My impression of what
> happened was more that the community never got a cohesive and
> self-sustaining effort going to make a GNOME Office suite happen.

It certainly wasn't a consensus, or a clear "decision", but the energy of
popular thought in the community along with decreased investment led to us
ceding our office/productivity leadership at the time to OpenOffice.org. We
were actually well ahead, but OpenOffice.org had the weight of existing
features, code and commercial interest. Thinking about it in those terms, I
regret it even more.

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME dependent on Mono

[Jeff Waugh]

> I read http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/05/gnome-mono-yelp/ with great
> concern.

Unfortunately, the authors of that website are obstinate in their
indifference to the truth, and do not serve the interests of the Free
Software community. They prefer to create suspicion and insinuations than
report the truth of important matters such as these.

> I have always supported the development of free platforms for C#, just as
> I've supported the development of free platforms for any language that
> users use.  I also wouldn't argue that people should not use C# with a
> free platform for secondary applications.

Thanks Richard -- I think that's a very important sentiment that more people
in the Free Software community should consider.

> However, making GNOME depend on Mono is running a grave risk, and a grave
> mistake.  If the article accurately describes the situation, I think we
> need to launch a high-priority project to reimplement Yelp in some other
> language.

GNOME does not depend on Mono at all. There is one Mono-based application in
the official GNOME release suites (Tomboy) that is easily removable if users
are not comfortable using Mono. Mono bindings are included in the bindings
suite, such that developers familiar with C# (and other [CD]LR languages)
can create Free Software that works with GNOME and Free platforms (instead
of proprietary software that works with only proprietary platforms).

There are some components in GNOME that optionally integrate with Mono-based
tools, particularly Beagle. Yelp can depends on 'libbeagle' which provides
an interface to Beagle for C-based applications, but itself does not depend
on Mono at all.

You can remove Mono from modern FLOSS desktop systems without removing GNOME
itself, though you'll miss out on some cool stuff like f-spot, Beagle,
Tomboy and so on. Most distributors ship Mono 'out of the box' now anyway.

Thanks,

- Jeff

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Re: Question to candidates: what about next ODF?

[Jeff Waugh]

> The will is there, but like so much else we're short on man power.

There is a really important point to be made about this that hasn't come up
at all so far, to my knowledge:

  Around the time of the establishment of the GNOME Foundation, the GNOME
  community (under much clearer leadership at the time than we have now)
  basically ceded all office/productivity development to OpenOffice.org,
  with the idea at the time being that OpenOffice.org would be ported to
  GNOME and become, if not in name then certainly in implementation, "GNOME
  Office".

The dudes who work on the GTK+/GNOME AbiWord frontend are certainly involved
in the GNOME community, Jody has his little team working on Gnumeric, the
GNOME-DB team are largely focused on their platform stuff now, Glom is not
totally associated with "GNOME Office" but is looking very promising as a
database component, and a few projects have popped up here to do things like
presentations without getting very far -- but none of these have really had
the primary support of distributions or the GNOME community in general for a
while now. We don't even have a GNOME Office release suite to ship every six
months (not for lack of encouragement or trying though).

So although there will be a few people up in arms if I describe this as a
"storm in a teacup", what do they seriously think we have to gain by making
*political* statements about ODF or OOXML when it's not massively relevant
to the GNOME community in the first place? If the GNOME Foundation made a
profound statement on the legitimacy of OOXML, it would be about as helpful
as a flame from some random commenter on a news website. Given that, on the
whole, we are not office/productivity software practitioners, our *political
opinions* on those issues don't carry a lot of weight. So why should we be
pushed or bullied into making them?

What's relevant here is that we have helped a member of the GNOME community
to achieve his aims in support of his work on Free Software, and that there
is legitimate disagreement about whether that demonstrates *passive* support
for an unpopular company and format. We don't think that's the case, but we
accept differing opinions on the matter. Other commentators have been less
tolerant in this regard, and that is disappointing.

Phew. Ahem. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]

[Jeff Waugh]

> 
> 
> > Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it
> > because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case.
> 
> Because there's a critical mass of developers there -- most of both the
> Red Hat and Novell desktop teams.

Dan Winship points out on IRC that while this was true when the Boston
Summit was created, there aren't a lot of Novell desktop hackers left in
Boston these days. Perhaps a roaming Columbus Day weekend conference (still
in the USA) would be a good thing?

- Jeff

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Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]

[Jeff Waugh]

> Have the board paused and thought why the Summit has to be Boston? Is it
> because most hackers work around Boston? May be it was the case.

Because there's a critical mass of developers there -- most of both the Red
Hat and Novell desktop teams.

- Jeff

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Re: On Boston Summit organization and delegation [was Re: A question to candidates]

[Jeff Waugh]

> But if you look, I asked for help about Boston Summit on the boston-social
> list as early as June:
> 
>   http://mail.gnome.org/archives/boston-social/2007-June/msg0.html
> 
> and got no reply. I mailed at least three Boston residents directly and
> got no reply either. And I gave up and Jeff ended up doing it all the way
> from Australia. It was going well until the *reserved venue* got
> canceled...

Thanks for pointing that out - but I do want to stress again that Zana and
Owen saved the day when all else failed, and we should be very grateful to
them (not that you're forgetting them, I just wanted to say thanks again).

We have to wait until January to book the usual venue at MIT, so I hope J5
(elected or not - formalities, formalities) can adopt that task and pursue
it vigorously! :-)

- Jeff

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Re: two questions for candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> Microsoft isn't defending OOXML under the terms defined by ISO.

So we should be as grubby and corrupt as them? What I am saying here is not
that we should put up a weak fight. I am saying we should *defeat* OOXML
under the terms defined by ISO. I'm helping to do that in Australia. It is
in the local standards bodies that the fight exists now. Not on the GNOME
Foundation mailing list.

> >   Software Freedom is not just for geeks!
> 
> Right on, but you could make sure not only geeks noticed the many poison
> pills of OOXML. This discussion is an evident proof one of the poison
> pills is getting at people.

This discussion is not about supporting OOXML.

- Jeff

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Re: two questions for candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> 
> 
> > 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
> > OOXML?
> 
> I'd probably include a message about not fighting OOXML on political
> grounds because they have no impact on the ISO standardisation process. To
> succeed, we need to fight OOXML under the terms defined by ISO, which
> means nuking it as hard was we possibly can on technical grounds.

Actually, a very important point, which I'm not just saying because this is
a reply to a question from Richard... :-)

What I *wouldn't* change in our statement is that the number 1 point in our
position statement was Software Freedom, and that our final comment was to
encourage people to contribute to Software Freedom.

That's important because ultimately, whatever goes on with standards and
their impact on our industry, *our* number 1 priority is Software Freedom,
and making sure our users can access it, use it and enjoy it.

- Jeff

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Re: two questions for candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> Finally, I'd have liked it to have been more timely. I think Jeff is right
> that it would not have changed the impact much (we'd still have been
> flamed) but we'd have looked like we were doing it above board, instead of
> trying to sneak behind anyone's back.

Agree. :-\

- Jeff

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Pre-announcement about joining ECMA

[Jeff Waugh]

> The fault lies with the Foundation for not communicating it decisions when
> they happened in a format that is easily digested.

Hey,

I don't want this to sound like rationalisation for the mistake we made (we
did say we were going to do an announcement when it happened, and it slipped
through the cracks), but it is going to sound a bit like post-game analysis:

I'm not so sure that an announcement about it back in July would have had a
better result than what we've been stuck with after that open letter. I did
and do agree that we should've done that, but I think the results would have
been much the same, with a very slim chance of being worse.

What I've seen of the very-harshly-against-us sections of the community, we
would not have changed any minds in the first place. Any kind of association
with Microsoft, OOXML or TC45-M is VERBOTEN and evidence of evil, financial
incentive, and/or conspiracies. It wouldn't matter how easily digested or
how rational our views would have been. (Some will use my comments here to
argue that we were very clearly wrong, because our decision was unpopular. I
disagree, and think the rest of the Board would too.)

The slim chance of it being worse is that by actively promoting that we'd
done it, perhaps it would have been seen with even more suspicion, ie. GNOME
proudly trumpeting that it was getting involved with the great evils, OOXML
and Microsoft.

I'm hypothesising here, and it's probably pointless post-game analysis, but
I think it's an accurate rendering of what we're dealing with. I've had some
folks who I regard as level-headed (who don't have a boat to row in this
debate) thank us for being balanced, not being extreme, and "keeping our
friends close, but our enemies closer".

Anyway... Just to reiterate: Yes, we made a mistake, and didn't do what we
said we'd do.

Thanks,

- Jeff

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Re: A question to candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> Well one week point is the board seems almost foreign to the every day
> GNOME contributor.  People vote and pretty much forget about the inner
> workings until Slashdot gets a hold on some sensationalized story and a
> press release is put out and still to the outside world the role of the
> foundation is unclear.  It is hard to figure out weak points because it is
> hard to see exactly what the foundation does.  I would fix this by
> communicating any decision, from the mundane to the sensational, in an
> easy to digest format on my blog.  Meeting minutes and press releases are
> just not enough.  Active engagement of the community is a must.

I created a Foundation blog on blogo, but only the other day, so I figured I
should wait for the new Board to come in to bless it as an official voice of
the Foundation. I think this would be really cool, and not only because the
manually updated news feed on foundation.gnome.org is so boring (it really
only contains major announcements anyway). :-)

- Jeff

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Re: two questions for candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> 1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
> OOXML?

I'd probably include a message about not fighting OOXML on political grounds
because they have no impact on the ISO standardisation process. To succeed,
we need to fight OOXML under the terms defined by ISO, which means nuking it
as hard was we possibly can on technical grounds.

> 2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
> Software Movement in general?

By creating rocking Free Software that is easy to use, accessible and usable
for users around the world, whether they're ubergeeks or neophytes. :-) The
phrase I use that I think best illustrates GNOME's values in this regard is:

  Software Freedom is not just for geeks!

:-)

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME Foundation Elections 2007. Let's start the debate!

[Jeff Waugh]

> Jeff is right: it's not all rollercoasters and martinis. There's ice cream
> too.

I heartily endorse this strategy. 

  http://www.flickr.com/photos/garrett/858313114/

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME Foundation Elections 2007. Let's start the debate!

[Jeff Waugh]

> > [6] Some of the tasks of a Board Member are mundane administrative
> > tasks, are you comfortable taking on such tasks as opposed to being
> > always involved in strategic and visionary thinking ?
> 
> Handling these mundane administrative tasks is fine for now, but should
> there be an executive director and staff to handle some of this work?

We have a part-time administrator, and have been considering hiring a full
time staffer again. Regardless of staffing, Board members are required to do
mundane administrative tasks -- it's not all rollercoasters and martinis!

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME Foundation Statement on ECMA TC45-M Participation

[Jeff Waugh]

> On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 04:45 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > In any event I dont understand why the gnome foundation was pulled
> > > into this - cant you do your work with ECMA without foundation
> > > backing?
> > 
> > As explained in the statement, the GNOME Foundation joined ECMA as a
> > non-profit to allow Jody to continue his work sucking the documentation
> > blood from Microsoft's stone.
> 
> I know but that does not answer my question - could jody do this without
> foundation backing?

No, of course not.

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME Foundation Statement on ECMA TC45-M Participation

[Jeff Waugh]

> In any event I dont understand why the gnome foundation was pulled into
> this - cant you do your work with ECMA without foundation backing?

As explained in the statement, the GNOME Foundation joined ECMA as a
non-profit to allow Jody to continue his work sucking the documentation
blood from Microsoft's stone.

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME Foundation Statement on ECMA TC45-M Participation

[Jeff Waugh]

> I can see MS spinning this to their advantage and I believe playing safe
> here would be better for us in the short term

Thing is, Microsoft haven't spun it to their advantage. They've mentioned
that Gnumeric is implementing OOXML, but that actually works against them
(due to the complexity of the spec and the completeness of the impl). They
haven't spun our membership of TC45-M to their advantage, and they won't,
because we're not their friends, and won't react kindly if they do. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME Foundation Statement on ECMA TC45-M Participation

[Jeff Waugh]

> The more you guys keep playing the neutral game, the more you'll get
> abused like this.

There is no "neutral game" being played here. Concerns were raised that the
GNOME Foundation's participation in EMCA TC45-M suggested that we supported
OOXML becoming an ISO standard. Thus, the answer was simple: We do not.

- Jeff

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Re: Candidacy: Jeff Waugh

[Jeff Waugh]

> On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 06:34 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> 
> >  * This year has been pretty tough for me as a Board member, as I've
> >  been starting a new business which has required a lot of time, I have
> >  been travelling a lot, and conference calls have been at a particularly
> >  bad time for me in Sydney.
> 
> Do you have a plan to deal with the situation this coming year?

Sorry, missed this mail until now... Yeah, I think the situation this year
is different in a number of ways:

 * I'm not organising linux.conf.au this time around, and I failed to
   realise how much an impact that really had on almost the first half of
   last year.

 * There were some extremely demotivating personal issues in the GNOME
   community that I had to contend with last year, which led to a fairly
   long period of depression (mentioned in my blog a few months back). I can
   only hope this doesn't return.

 * Finally, the nature of the work Pia and I are doing in our business is
   changing a bit from frenetic startup stuff to more regular, ongoing
   projects... and *hopefully* less travel. I totally thought that would be
   one of the benefits of leaving Canonical...

Unfortunately, I can't see the timezone thing changing too much. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: A question to candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> This is generally caused by the habit of only making decisions in
> meetings, instead of making decisions on the mailing list. And a tendency
> to think that all decisions must be unanimous.

A majority of the decisions this year were made on the mailing list, with a
quorum consensus rather than majority. Plenty slipped through, and tougher
decisions were deferred to meetings or ultimately not made, but largely due
to team coherency issues more than anything else. There were *very* few
times that the Board suffered from consensus gridlock this year, which is a
good sign.

- Jeff

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Re: A question to candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> (also I'm not sure why you mention GTK+ developers never requested a GTK+
> summit: it seems to me they did)

It's sort of in the middle -- they wanted to do one, but never really came
to the Board for support. We've always been 100% behind helping though! I'm
going to spend some time putting together a GNOME Mobile summit, which I
hope will be an appropriate venue for a GTK+ development meeting too.

- Jeff

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Re: Questions to the candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> Will you apply for the position as new Executive Director for GNOME?
> Will you apply for any paid position within GNOME while serving as board
> member?

Unlikely, although I have considered it in the past. It would be foolish to
rule anything out. Enough people have asked me about it that it seems to be
in the realm of possibility.

> Will you attend at least 90% of the board calls?

I'd try, but as anyone who has been on the Board will attest (and those who
have been on the Board while living in GMT+10 and above would INSIST) it is
difficult to attend *every* meeting in between the average business, travel
and personal commitments of GNOME Board members. Hopefully the meeting time
will be somewhat more compatible with my timezone... but looking at the list
of candidates, I somewhat doubt it. ;-)

> Can you accept competing official ISO standards?

Absolutely. It is ISO's role to facilitate the development of standards in a
coherent, transparent manner, not to determine the market demand for a given
standard. I think it's extremely short-sighted to protest OOXML on the basis
of "competing standards" given that standards exist for technologies that we
are very likely to want true Free standards for in the future - for example,
video encoders and decoders.

> What is your position towards official standards that do not meet the
> gennerally accepted definition of a free and open standard. Such as
> Microsoft OOXML?

That is an extremely loaded question, so I can only refer to my sigquote for
the appropriate response.

- Jeff

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Re: A question to candidates

[Jeff Waugh]

> What do you see as the best way to spend this money?

Getting GNOME contributors together, face-to-face, to nut out the difficult
problems that are tough to solve in a distributed fashion.

> In terms of hiring, do you prefer hiring a sysadmin, or an executive
> director?

We must have a full time staff member to manage any further hires, as there
is no way our part time administrator should have to deal with any duties
related to management. So, of the two, I'd prefer a full time, management
capable hire before a sysadmin hire. Alternatively, we can contract for the
sysadmin position. (I would not describe my priority for the first full time
hire as an "executive director", either -- GNOME is not an art gallery.)

> A second question to all candidates: what do you see as the weak points of
> the current board, and how do you propose addressing those weak points?

The biggest weak point is that we were unable to function as a coherent team
for much of the past two, perhaps three, years. The major reason for this is
not going to be a problem next year (and is thus not worth discussing), the
secondary issue will be solved for the 2009-2010 Board (GUADEC at the start
of the year), and I intend to focus on team-building and goal-setting for
the first six months of the year, to get everyone focused and *ROCKING* for
the rest of the 18 month term.

- Jeff

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Re: Statement about OOXML

[Jeff Waugh]

> This statement seems to be taking a long time; the delay reduces the
> effect.  When will it be published?

It will be out this week. They delay is entirely my fault -- aside from the
spirit-crushing stupidity of the whole thing, I've also been quite unwell. I
would not be surprised if OOXML has had an adverse impact on my health. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: GNOME Foundation Elections 2007. Let's start the debate!

[Jeff Waugh]

> [1] How much impact would being a member of the GNOME Foundation Board
> have on your current contributions to GNOME ?

Not a huge amount -- most of what I do these days is either related in some
way to the Board, or keeping things ticking as maintenance. While I've been
on the Board, I've still had the time to do large projects such as creating
blogs.gnome.org and massive repair work on our mail server.

> [2] Online Desktop and Services are being talked about as the next large
> step in GNOME - what is your vision for Online Desktop and Services and
> how would you measure them ?

GOD is only one of the many interesting opportunities we have right now, so
I think there's a broader conversation to have here -- but it's also mostly
outside the scope of what the Foundation does.

GOD raises some interesting questions for the Foundation though, which I've
commented on at GUADEC and on this list in the past: Should the Foundation
start hosting services? What can we provide that supports our community and
commercial ecosystem, without creating unnecessary competition?

I want the Foundation to play a role here, but we have to figure out just
what that is going to be -- where the GOD developers have an idea that is
unrealistic without some kind of central support, I want them to know they
can lean on the Foundation. I don't want our software to suffer because we
don't have the organisational cajones to support great ideas. :-)

> [3] What are the SMART goals that you desire to set for yourself should
> you be elected to the Board ?

Is 'SMART' a management acronym of some kind, or capitalised for emphasis? I
wasn't expecting candidates to suggest DUMB goals... ;-) I think I'll answer
this in question [8].

> [4] If you were part of the GNOME Board last year and a candidate again,
> what would you like to put as your achievements as a Board member ?

They may seem small, but I'm very glad to have fixed two outstanding issues
with the operation of the GNOME Foundation: The position of 'President' has
been held by someone who has not had an active role in the Foundation for a
long time -- we've now established the convention that the President of the
GNOME Foundation will be an elected director playing substantially the same
role we've referred to as 'Chairman' for years. I also pursued a change to
our bylaws that results in the next Board term starting with a face-to-face
meeting at GUADEC. Towards the end of the year I've done quite a bit of
outreach to companies considering participation in GNOME and the Foundation
(which hopefully makes up for the start of the year when I was pretty burnt
out after linux.conf.au 2007 -- I keep forgetting about that black hole).

> [5] Do you think it is important to mentor and coach potential leaders in
> the GNOME community ? If yes, what do you think the role of the Board be
> in this task ? If no, what are your thoughts on this ?

Yes, in both technology and community roles. I have some thoughts about how
we can do better with technology mentorship, but they are not relevant to my
candidacy (because the Foundation does not play a role in the technical side
of the project other than handling emergencies and resolving disputes).

Next year, I want to involve more contributors in Foundation activities as
"delegates" of the Board, responsible for particular tasks or projects for
the community. We've dabbled in this a bit in the past, but always in a very
casual kind of way. I want to pursue it in a more robust fashion, ensuring
that contributors are involved in things like the Board conference calls, to
report on their activities and be a part of the team.

If we make a real effort to do this well, we can grow the number of people
who are contributing in community roles, and who might want to run for the
Board in the future. I do see it as essentially a mentoring opportunity.

> [6] Some of the tasks of a Board Member are mundane administrative tasks,
> are you comfortable taking on such tasks as opposed to being always
> involved in strategic and visionary thinking ?

Yeah. Half my GNOME time is spent doing the relatively mundane anyway. :-)

> [7] What or which according to you, is the one "tipping point" move for
> GNOME in the coming year ?

For GNOME in general I think the dovetailing of so much work in disparate
little related projects is going to make one of 2.22-2.26 *really* shine.
More needs to be done to encourage this dovetailing -- we need to be more
proactive about it.

For the GNOME Foundation (which is what is important here), I think that
making a artful hire within the next 12-18 months may have a huge impact on
the resources we have to hand, and our commercial ecosystem (whether that
means the traditional big players or the recent influx of smaller companies
involved in GNOME). I say "artful" because I strongly believe we can't rush
in and hire "just anyone" so we can claim to have a warm body -- we need
someone who can bring a very different skill set to

Re: Candidacy Announcement for the 2007 GNOME Board Election: George Kraft

[Jeff Waugh]

> On Fri, 2007-11-16 at 02:49 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> > No director represents their affiliation -- they're elected to represent
> > the GNOME Foundation membership after all -- but it must be documented
> > (least of all because of the maximum representation rule).
> 
> Should I repost to foundation-list and election with the correction, or is
> this discussion thread good enough?

Probably best to request that the membership committee fix it where it is
published as information to eligible voters in the future. You could reply
to the foundation-announce mail with a correction, but it's probably a bit
of overkill.

- Jeff

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Re: Candidacy Announcement for the 2007 GNOME Board Election: George Kraft

[Jeff Waugh]

> > Great to see you running.  So, you are not with IBM anymore?  In that
> > case your Bio page is outdated.
> 
> I still work for IBM, but I would not officially represent them with
> respect to GNOME.

No director represents their affiliation -- they're elected to represent the
GNOME Foundation membership after all -- but it must be documented (least of
all because of the maximum representation rule).

- Jeff

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Re: academic cooperation

[Jeff Waugh]

> I've created the page after last GUADEC this year, unfortunatly there is a
> request for the mailing list but isn't still resolved. Anyway i think that
> today we are "more" people interested so we can try to advance on this
> idea together.

There were some problems creating mailing lists around that time. I'll do it
for you immediately.

Thanks,

- Jeff

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Re: Statement on OOXML

[Jeff Waugh]

> Is someone working on a statement that the GNOME Foundation does not
> support acceptance of OOXML as an ISO standard?
> 
> I would be glad to offer confidential suggestions about a draft.

We're working on a statement regarding the controversy last week at the
moment. We're nearing the end of that process and have had quite some input
into it, so further input is more likely to delay than improve the process.

Thanks for your offer to help,

- Jeff

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Re: Help us prepare a budget for 2008!

[Jeff Waugh]

>  + small meetings/hackfests:

As mentioned to the Board previously, I'd like to put a GNOME Mobile (maybe
also GTK+ if they're keen [1]) summit on the budget agenda for March/April
2008, in Europe. It's far enough away from both the Boston Summit and GUADEC
that I think this will be a good bookend event for the community. Europe
because the vast majority of our Mobile folk are there, and it's expensive
to focus on the Boston Summit for them.

Thanks,

- Jeff

[1] I hope this event can be the GTK+ summit too, but from previous talks, I
get the impression they'd like to have something pretty exclusively GTK+. I
think the natural platform focus of GNOME Mobile and our interest in pushing
GTK+ forward would make this combined event even more worthwhile -- and much
easier to fund, to boot!

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Re: Who would be a good member? [Was: About the coming election]

[Jeff Waugh]

> Also, people tend to forget what they wrote in their introduction after a
> few months :-) Again, as Quim said, it's not because they're bad people.
> It's just really easy to forget the original "plan" when many new things
> have appeared in the meantime!
> 
> (I'm sure I'd be ashamed to see I didn't do what I wrote in mine last
> year)

A couple of times we've tried to build a plan based on those statements, but
the difficulties of doing so in a thorough way over the phone or email have
made it less successful than it could be. I'm hoping the next Board can make
a better go of it, because it would be a great thing to get right at the
start of the year.

(This is why having an in-person Board meeting at the beginning of the term
is such an exciting opportunity, and why I pushed hard to make it possible
this term. No point waiting when we can fix something easily.)

- Jeff

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Re: Who would be a good member? [Was: About the coming election]

[Jeff Waugh]

> > Above all else, I hope you vote for people you know and trust to
> > represent what you value about GNOME. To put it in a clunky but simple
> > way, if "GNOME is People", vote for the people who "are GNOME".
> 
> That was what I guess I was getting at. Unless the circle of trust is cast
> wider each year, the set of people one knows and trusts would perhaps be
> static.

I think we do pretty well at this. People who've grown into leadership roles
in the last few years include Quim, Behdad, Vincent and Lucas. The Board may
be smaller these days, but look back at how things have changed over time...
The kids become leaders, the leaders become parents, new energy arrives. :-)

> In fact, I'd rather say (a personal opinion and not that of the Membership
> Committee) that a few of aspiring GNOME Foundation candidates (this year
> and coming year) might like to also get involved with the Membership
> Committee - that's a great place to get to know people and become aware
> what they are doing and who all are doing the cool things along side them

Yeah -- great idea.

> There has to be a strong movement towards telling GNOME contributors that
> there's no magical halo that entitles them to a place on the Foundation
> other than the willingness to put in hours to make it a better place for
> all.

NOW HEAR THIS! THERE IS NO MAGICAL HALO! ;-)

- Jeff

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Who would be a good member? [Was: About the coming election]

[Jeff Waugh]

> That in effect perhaps raises the important question "So who would be a
> good member of the Board?".

Above all else, I hope you vote for people you know and trust to represent
what you value about GNOME. To put it in a clunky but simple way, if "GNOME
is People", vote for the people who "are GNOME".

- Jeff

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Re: Executive director [was: Re: OOXML]

[Jeff Waugh]

> It is perhaps of interest to some that the Mozilla Foundation has not
> found it easy to find a new Executive Director (see
> http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/executive-director-search.html).  Note
> the Mozilla position comes with salary and benefits.  Are we thinking the
> same for GNOME?

Yes (this was the case with our previous ED too, btw), although we probably
have less room to move on that front that Mozilla. ;-) Even if you know you
want the traditional ED role filled, it's tough to find the right candidate.

- Jeff

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Re: bounties?

[Jeff Waugh]

> Did the foundation come out against bounties on principal, or has the idea
> just not gone anywhere?

Given that you've read previous threads here, I'll just briefly summarise
where I think we stand with regards to bounties:

We've had some success and some failures, but ultimately it required quite a
lot of infrastructure and time to get it right, but hadn't really delivered
on expectations. There are also ongoing concerns about how the introduction
of financial incentives will affect volunteer motivation.

Hopefully that's a useful summary, and I'm sure others will chime in with
other views or additional info if necessary.

- Jeff

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Re: board [was Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]]

[Jeff Waugh]

> Also, looking backwards we also see that our time and issues could have
> been invested much better.

I think that's probably true, but I strongly disagree with your examples. I
also think that with such high expectations, we can beat ourselves up pretty
badly even when we do great things. What follows on from that is bitterness,
defensiveness, and a dysfunctional group of people. We could have done a lot
better with debriefs and general meeting conversation to avoid some of this.

> What is left from the 10th anniversary? Imagine if some of that time would
> have been put in a Boston Summit planning.

I've explained this a few times now, but I'll do it again here: The Board
could not have done significantly more about the Boston Summit to avoid or
avert the crisis we had. It's that simple. Due to unrepresentative and ill
informed noise on board-list, it has been turned into a much bigger issue
that it ever was.

At precisely the time when the Boston Summit was ready to announce and work
could begin on the (much more interesting) detail of catering, what we were
going to do, how we were going to run it, and calling for local volunteers
to run the show, our apparently booked venue pulled the plug. This started a
lengthy period of going through other channels to get the venue back, trying
for a different venue with the same organisation, looking at different dates
and hosts, and finally, a last-minute splurge on a venue as we were down to
the wire and couldn't feasibly change the dates. It was not a lack of time,
planning or local volunteers that set off this chain of events... It was a
*horribly* timed disappearance of the most important piece of the Summit's
organisational puzzle: The venue. If there's no venue, there's no Summit.

Of course, massive thanks go to Zana and Owen for pulling it all together
for a very successful Summit despite the roadblocks and challenges. In the
end, the Board only received one complaint about the Summit, and that was
before it was held, and by someone who did not go to it. (If anyone *does*
have complaints about the Summit, please mail the Board!)

I am more (personally) disappointed with the 10th anniversary execution and
results than those of the Boston Summit.

> How much time did we put in aligning the election period with GUADEC?
> Imagine if instead we had been dealing with this poisoned OOXML
> discussion.

It took *one* Board member's time and leadership to pursue the term length
bylaws change (in addition to discussion among members and the time of the
membership committee to run the vote). This is a very important and worthy
change, which will have a positive impact from 2009 onward - that's a long
time away, but we had to change it now or it would languish until the 2010
term! Given that this has come up nearly every term I've been on the Board,
I regard actual execution on this issue as a great success of this term.

It would have taken *one* Board member's time (and a bit of review) to ship
a timely announcement and clarification when we joined ECMA and TC45-M. It
would have created an outburst itself, with mildly different properties to
what we're experiencing now -- unless we had done a *spectacular* job with
the messaging, it would've been "GNOME announces support for OOXML". I have
been dealing with the shrill voices for days now, so I might sound a bit
rankled on this front. ;-)

Different people were responsible for these tasks, there was no substantial
cross-over in time or topic, so they're basically incomparable.

- Jeff

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Re: Executive director [was: Re: OOXML]

[Jeff Waugh]

> This sounds, 2 years on, like exactly the situation we find ourselves in
> now. Perhaps it is time to revisit the assumption that our organisation is
> so radically different from others that we don't need/want an executive
> director?

I substantially agree with everything raised in your email, but I've come to
a different conclusion -- and that's okay!

 * I don't think we're in the dire situation described in your email. We're
   firmly on the small-target side of execution, but that's okay for now.

 * I don't think we have an assumption that our organisation is so radically
   different that we don't need/want an executive director. That sounds like
   a misinterpretation of my emphasis on previous hiring goals, which I'd be
   happy to work through with you if necessary.

 * It's more important to have a good grasp on what we want to hire for, and
   who we want to hire than just filling the role with a warm body. I firmly
   believe that hiring the wrong person is worse than having no one at all.

 * The current Board, during its mid-year meeting at GUADEC, chose not to
   put hiring on the top of its priority list for the rest of this term.
 
 * As I said in a previous mail, *things change*. I imagine that this will
   be one of the items a fresh Board would like to take a run at (and I'll
   be there with bells on).

 * This was one of the reasons I took the term length bylaws modification so
   seriously, and I regard that as a great success of this Board, given how
   often it has come up during my previous terms.

Thanks,

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> Jeff Waugh wrote:
> > Things change -- what was taken for granted while you were on the Board
> > may not be the case now.
> 
> Way to make a guy feel like his opinion is worth something Jeff.

Huh? Of course your opinion is worth something, but the issue is not static.

> Would you mind educating me on what's changed, please? Perhaps as a
> foundation member who put a lot of time over two terms into the hiring
> process I might have something to offer the decision making process?

I explained it in that email. If something wasn't clear or you need further
explanation, let me know what it is.

- Jeff

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Re: board [was Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]]

[Jeff Waugh]

> As for "trashing you", it seems any comment about the boards actions or
> activities that is the slighest bit negative or in disagreement with
> yourself you take as a personal insult and follow up in flowery language
> attempting to supress the dissent by acting hurt. 

I pointed out behaviour that I thought was inappropriate and unproductive.
Given that it wasn't particularly relevant to myself (but highly relevant to
my corporate responsibility with the Board), your attempts to discredit me
and my comments are similarly inappropriate and unproductive. I suggest you
take a gander at the Code of Conduct, and figure a more constructive way to
contribute to the community.

- Jeff

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Re: board [was Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]]

[Jeff Waugh]

> > So, yes, I totally understand your position, but I think that falling
> > back on unsympathetic, dramatic criticism of the Board and ultimatums is
> > not a productive way of fixing the problem.
> 
> "unsympathetic, dramatic criticism" would be "telling it as it is" "of the
> Board" would be "blaming Jeff"

Luis hasn't blamed me. On either occasion of your nasty replies, in fact!

> "ultimatums" has me baffled given all the Luis said about getting the job
> done whatever it took.

Unfortunately, this refers to a discussion on board-list (which I didn't
realise, as I've been reading my mail weirdly due to being without laptop
power adapter for a few days). Though it didn't broach confidence, I
apologise for bringing board-list issues across to foundation-list.

> Can you translate that particular bit of newspeak Jeff, as I can't work
> out how to make sense of your comments with respect to Luis offer.

I suppose if you keep referring to anything I say as 'newspeak', someone
will believe it. Not a great way to encourage respectful discussion on this
list, and I don't really see the point besides trashing me personally.

- Jeff

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Re: board [was Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]]

[Jeff Waugh]

> I volunteered to take leadership on this position months ago.

We chose to have a Board member as liaison to the Legal team, which was very
clearly delegated the responsibility to provide legal support and advice to
the Foundation. This is the same model as other teams, but as the legal team
is new and doesn't have a well-defined leadership/sustainability model (as,
say, the release team does), it could do with a lot more shepherding. It was
only clear to us very recently that the current liaison was not doing this
effectively. The only reason it became clear to us is that our own goals
were not being met, not as a result of feedback from the legal team itself.

So, yes, I totally understand your position, but I think that falling back
on unsympathetic, dramatic criticism of the Board and ultimatums is not a
productive way of fixing the problem.

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> For the future the board should really consider not sponsoring anyone to
> work on the OOXML format

No one was sponsored to work on the OOXML format.

> (and withdraw existing involvement on the behalf of the GNOME Foundation),
> as many people in the free software/FOSS community are working hard to try
> to prevent the OOXML from becoming a standard.

We're not working towards ISO standardisation of OOXML.

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> What we've shown is not having a full-time director has been a mistake

It has actually been a very helpful learning experience -- understanding
what the purpose of that role should be, by grokking the gaps. It's less
obvious what that role ought to be now that we're so far away from the
"Executive Director" assumption.

> I agree that expecting a 7 person volunteer board to take care of the
> administration and day to day running of the foundation is asking too
> much.

It would be, but luckily, that's not the situation we're in. We have a very
good part time administrator in Zana, who has done a fantastic job picking
up the pieces of our previous administrative mess.

It's very easy to simplify this issue, and I think it's a mistake to do so.
Defining the role and hiring someone for it has been and will continue to be
a very tricky task. We have to be very comfortable choosing between large
target and small target goals. Just hiring for an "Executive Director" role
would put us firmly in the small target zone, which is probably not the
right thing to do. I don't even think it's necessary.

Things change -- what was taken for granted while you were on the Board may
not be the case now.

- Jeff

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Re: board [was Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]]

[Jeff Waugh]

> I'm hesitant to declare it a failure until I see more evidence that
> delegation has been tried and failed. For example, I could do this sort of
> thing without being on the board at all- no need to appoint me to the
> board. But frankly I have not felt like my attempts to help out have been
> invited, much less encouraged.

I have personally tried, and certainly taken legal issues to legal-private
as a matter of delegation (and only received one response, btw), but I think
there is an issue of... domain-specific responsibility... involved that has
not created or encouraged an active team around legal work. That's a bummer,
and I think the extreme business of other Board members has contributed to
no one else picking up that ball.

(Sorry I'm not being more specific, but I have to figure out if/how I can be
during this election cycle.)

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> Maybe Jody's involvement can be just his personal activity and totally
> separated from, and have nothing to do with, GNOME.

His involvement is facilitated by our membership of ECMA. We were entirely
willing to do so.

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> I am frustrated, and so I will be running for the board again.
> 
> If elected, my almost-exclusive focus will be handling legal and
> secretarial issues for the board. So I can't guarantee that my being on
> the board would necessarily have prevented this particular problem, but
> I'd like to think I would have at least screamed very loud.

That's rocking good news. More warm bodies on the Board with time to spare
(or a very particular focus, plus the usual oversight and representation) is
a very welcome thing, and it would be great to have you on the Board again.

A related issue: I think we've pretty much shown that the seven person Board
thing is a bit of a failure. Even if you're not elected or didn't run, we
could appoint you to the Board for this function. :-) We ought to consider
adding a couple of people to the Board.

So much for being away for five years. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> Maybe Jody's involvement can be just his personal activity and totally
> separated from, and have nothing to do with, GNOME.

That would be challenging, given ECMA's participation model. Besides, what
is wrong with the GNOME Foundation supporting Jody's participation in a
standards body? He's doing great work.

(Andreas Guelzow is one of the only GNOMEy folks involved in the ISO group
working on ODF, and has joined as an individual, which means he's probably
paying $300 a year for his efforts. I'm sure the GNOME Foundation could help
with that if he wanted us to -- though it'd have change to an organisational
membership of some sort.)

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> the GNOME Foundation should make a statement opposing the acceptance of
> OOXML and explaining the reason for participating in ECMA.

We'll be making a statement about the issue soon. Don't expect it to please
everyone.

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> I have another word for that newspeak ... "Accountability"

It's entirely possible to be held accountable without being unduly slapped
around, particularly by otherwise upstanding members of the community, who
ought to know better.

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> This flaming was completely and utterly predictable. I'm disappointed that
> the board took the time to approve an action that obviously exposed GNOME
> to PR problems without taking the (very obvious) PR steps to reduce that
> impact.

Based on the genesis of the "open letter", it is hard to believe it would
have helped. That said, since the letter, there have been numerous contacts
to the Board and members of it, and there is likely to be a more official
response to come (due to the interest in clarifying what on earth the letter
was about).

I look forward to further aggravated public shaming of past incompetencies,
especially ones so obvious in hindsight, as it always improves motivation
and encourages members to run for election. I'm sorry I couldn't find a way
to write this sentence without sarcasm.

- Jeff

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Re: OOXML [was Re: GNOME Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 7/6/07]

[Jeff Waugh]

> So, uh... this apparently didn't happen, and now we're getting flamed
> (rightfully) for appearing to give a stamp of approval to a deeply flawed
> standard. So... when is the board making this happen?

Although I disagree with the tone and content of your email, an announcement
is pending about a related issue, which may address concerns (legitimate or
not) raised about GNOME's involvement in TC45-M. Participation in the TC45-M
process does not imply approval or support for ISO standardisation of OOXML.

- Jeff

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Re: Suggestion for coming elections

[Jeff Waugh]

> Quim Gil wrote:
> > What happens when you get less than 7 people with votes?
> 
> I don't understand - you mean if there are fewer than 7 candidates?

Quim meant fewer than seven who receive votes at all (implying that there
would be other candidates running who received none). I don't think it's a
huge issue, as those who were elected can choose to appoint more directors
should they wish to.

I think it would be better to go with a widely used and familiar system,
such as those proposed by James Henstridge and Ryan Lortie in previous
years. In fact, I would be happy to appoint a group (including James and
Ryan) to come up with a proposal for the Board.

- Jeff

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Re: Preliminary results for Membership Vote Regarding Change to Bylaws

[Jeff Waugh]

> Voting in referenda is generally not very high, and there was 0 debate on
> this issue on the list (I did see some grumbling on IRC, but nothing
> concrete), so it's hardly an initiative that's going to mobilise the
> troops.

There was buttloads of discussion around the initial plan, which partly led
to the revised implementation (mostly about extending the current board's
term, and we had legal advice suggesting the bylaws change). Based on the
length and breadth of the earlier threads, I don't think there was any lack
of discussion. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> Jeff Waugh wrote, On 13/09/07 11:43:
> 
>  > > The planet is not a newspaper or a magazine, it is just a planet.
>  > > That censorship / editorial line idea doesn't make any sense to me.
>  >
>  > I hope that this is a similar effect to that of great design -- you
>  > don't notice the editorship because Planet is highly readable and
>  > reflective of the people who are active bloggers in our community. :-)
> 
> Does that mean that if someone isn't an active blogger he has nothing
> interesting to write about every now and then?

That's a pretty bizaare interpretation of what I wrote. :-)

> Besides, that would need someone to be over the good and the bad to make
> the decision of whether a post is worth to be in the planet or not... and
> I'd like to think that nobody would step forward to take over that
> position.

Editorship doesn't mean intrusive oversight of every post. It means there's
a benchmark for inclusion. I'm summarising how I go through that decision at
the moment [1].

- Jeff

[1] I did tell myself not to get involved in the discussion and just post
this once I'd finished it, but I didn't want to let the conversation go off
the rails with all the conspiracy theory crap.

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> The planet is not a newspaper or a magazine, it is just a planet. That
> censorship / editorial line idea doesn't make any sense to me.

I hope that this is a similar effect to that of great design -- you don't
notice the editorship because Planet is highly readable and reflective of
the people who are active bloggers in our community. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> But I'm 100% fine with this since we still didn't change most of the world
> to understand French; hopefully we will get there soon! ;-)

This would be an entirely reasonable catalyst for applying censorship to
Planet GNOME.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> That's why full feeds are preferred over GNOME-specific tags

Minor point: I do mean 'preferred'. If someone has a good reason for wanting
only their GNOME-related posts on Planet I'm cool with that, but I always go
back to ask before putting them up. So no knicker-twisting, censorship nuts!

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> I think that asking people to have tags/categories on their blogs and not
> aggregate everything would be better than having all the content of the
> ones who arrived first.

Planet GNOME is about the people moreso than the project. We talk about the
project *all the time*. The reason why I started Planet GNOME (and Planet!)
was to read about and better understand the *people*. That's why full feeds
are preferred over GNOME-specific tags, why we have hackergotchis (to put a
face to a name), and why this idea has been so influential around the FLOSS
community.

> Some people currently post everyday about their life and it's never
> related to GNOME at all.

It's related to GNOME because they're part of our *family*, and we are all
better off for knowing each other.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> The current "editorial control" is simply more or less "if you ever did
> something peripherally related to GNOME, you can be on Planet, regardless
> of what you post".

It's somewhat more intricate than that -- I'm writing it up atm, so people
can understand the decision making process (guidelines). That's the first
step. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> I'd even go one step further saying than most people care about gnome and
> gnome apps, and not about one's cats and the other's culinar niceties.

> Because despite Gnome is people, I think that for most people, Planet
> Gnome is primarily about Gnome.

Well, that's counter to the original purpose and design of Planet GNOME. It
would be like asking Bastien to include support for comic book compression
formats in Totem. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> OK. But please, could someone tell us what's this Editorial Control all
> about? 

Sure, it's about the quality and relevance of what appears on Planet GNOME.
As you note, "relevance" does not mean relevance of blog content to the
project, but of people to the project. It's also related to *why* people
want to be on Planet GNOME -- for instance, it sucks that some people make
blogs solely to be published on Planet GNOME.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> Which is why a transparent process is really really important.

I agree, though I've had concerns figuring out the things you raised next:

> Oh, and I don't believe the argument that "feelings might get hurt if
> someone is publicly rejected." If someones ego is so fragile that it
> breaks by being rejected from syndication, one must ask why you're
> publishing a blog for the world to see in the first place?
> planet.gnome.org is an important source of gnome related news and
> understandably, not everyone can belong.
> 
> Not that I think very many would be rejected in an open system. It's not
> like people would apply unless they actually are interested in and writing
> about GNOME and free software.

I hope this is true, but I haven't been very confident about it. I've felt
uncomfortable from both sides though -- worried that public rejection will
offend, and that maybe I would be less editorially strict to avoid public
offense. This part I really haven't figured out to my satisfaction yet.

That said, I am happy so far that no one has been privately offended when
receiving a "sorry, no" or "not just yet" response. At least about feeds.
I've had a couple go slightly mental because I wouldn't put non-pgo style
hackergotchis up. :-)

(Despite all the noise, I'm mostly concentrating on making the guidelines
more clear and addressing the maintenance issues.)

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> *sigh*, I wonder what you are basing this claim on, maybe there's an
> archived thread that you could reffer us to which details that ?

Unfortunately my blog didn't have comments at the time, so most of the
responses to this were on IRC or by mail. It's mentioned fairly regularly
even now. Planet GNOME is vastly more readable and relevant (in terms of
people, not topic) than many other Planets.

> I think its important to note here that giving someone access to blog on
> planet gnome is like publicly aknowlaging that they are indeed a part of
> the gnome community - people who contribute to the project need to feel
> like they are part of the project.

For sure.

> Currently it seems like there is even more sensorship in planet membership
> than svn access

I'm just not going to get caught up in all this alarmism about censorship. I
can't imagine why anyone would think I could get away with actual censorship
of Planet... it would be laughable if it wasn't so mean spirited.

Suggesting this about SVN is equally ridiculous.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> > I wonder if this control in itself is a source of frustration to some
> > people who've been contributing code to the gnome project and want to
> > brag about it on planet gnome
> 
> The planet-web hacking file says the editorial policies "seem fascist",
> which seems to acknowledge that view...

I do not acknowledge that view, though I'll happily joke about it.

> I would suggest opening pgo as a free-for-all for those with commit access

Just so everyone knows: That is *extremely* unlikely to happen. There has
been significant support for the editorial stewardship of Planet GNOME for
ages now. When I last considered making it a free-for-all, there was a *LOT*
of pushback. Despite the occasional maintenance issues that has not changed.

> For instance, add the ability to show just the post title for certain 
> posters, with an "expand" button to see the hackergotchi + post. Then if 
> John. Q. Gnome keeps posting shopping lists or pictures of kittens, you 
> click the "collapse view for this blogger by default" button. And if 
> they post something cool-sounding, you can click-to-expand.

You can hide posts based on a CSS class (look for people's nicks in the
source).

> That way you get democracy at both ends - posting and viewing.

GNOME is not democratic. :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Foundation Board Meeting Minutes :: 23rd August 2007

[Jeff Waugh]

> Is there some background to this, or are you just having a bad email day? 

Both.

- Jeff

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Re: Can we improve things?

[Jeff Waugh]

> We have no editorial control.  Get over it :)

We absolutely *do* have editorial control at the moment. The challenge I
have at the moment is to continue that, while improving what people see to
be the drawbacks of the current process (which can almost entirely be
summarised as slow response particularly when I'm travelling).

- Jeff

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