Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Inbar, Paul]

Hi all,

Let me apologize for asking another font question. I have been looking
at previous posts and articles on the web, but am still not sure I
understand the issues and consequences.

Basically, our frame templates use a font called Times for our regular
Body paragraph tag.

On our Xerox network printers, everything seems to be fine. However,
they are going to be taken offline in a few weeks. 

Recently, a new HP network printer was installed. When I made the HP
printer the default printer and opened up one of our documents, I got
the Document named aaa.fm uses unavailable fonts. To reformat using
available fonts, click OK message. I opened the doc. Times appeared
checked but greyed out in the right-click context menu. I printed on the
HP. The printout looks identical, as far as I can tell, to the same doc
printed on the xerox. I saved and closed, when I opened again, I got the
same unavailable fonts message. When I make the Xerox printer the
default once again, and open the document, I don't get the unavailable
fonts message, and Times is once again black in the right-click font
context menu.

I looked around my system, in all the folders I saw mentioned in various
sites, but didn't find Times anywhere. In the PDD file for the Xerox
printer there is a line that has Times on it. The printer support people
printed out the list of fonts on the HP. It doesn't appear to have
Times.

Now, I have several questions. I realize that it may not be possible to
know exactly from this description what is going on, but I welcome
guesses.

Does it sound like I don't really have Times on my system, but
Framemaker acts like Times is there when the Xerox is the selected
printer because the Xerox has it?

If the HP doesn't have it, what are the consequences of that? Which font
did it use? Does it decide itself what is most compatible? It doesn't
seem to have changed anything in my document. When I go back to the
Xerox, Times seems ok again. Will the unavailable fonts message
interfere with smooth updating of the book?

What is the best course of action to take: 

Try to buy Times somewhere? (Or rather, try to convince my organization
to buy Times somewhere)
Change my templates to use Times New Roman?
Just live with the unavailable fonts message?

It once seemed to me that Times New Roman was a bit more crowded than
Times. That's why I always resisted Times New Roman. Is the difference
just a figment of my imagination? Also, is there a difference in
appearance between Times Roman and Times New Roman?

In short, any information would be appreciated, and will help me to
communicate to the printer support people in my organization what the
issues are. Right now they just regard me as the troublemaker who uses
Framemaker...

Thanks,
Paul




-
Intel Israel (74) Limited

This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for
the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
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Re: Smart quotes

[Joel Wilhelm]

I magnified to 800% and the quotes are indeed slightly different. I guess
it's just hard to notice in Myriad.
Joel

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Susan Modlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The version that Dov mentions is the same one that shipped with FrameMaker
 7.0.

 Joel, try this: Change your magnification to 800% and look at your Mryiad
 Pro quotes. You should be able to see a subtle shift in the weight between
 the open and close quotes. They both slant to the right, but the open quotes
 are bottom heavy and the close quotes are top heavy.

 HTH,

 ...Susan

 - Original Message 
 From: Dov Isaacs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Joel Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Framers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 5:46:22 PM
 Subject: RE: Smart quotes

 OK, I tried this myself with FrameMaker 8.0p277 (the latest update).
 I typed the same text with quotes (using the standard US keyboard straight
 double quote - i.e., the inch character - as my double quote character)
 in Times New Roman, Arial, Minion Pro, and Myriad Pro.

 For all four lines of text with those four fonts, I achieved the proper
 smart quotes results including Myriad Pro. It shows up correctly on
 the screen in FrameMaker, prints correctly, and saves as PDF correctly
 (i.e., the proper smart quotes - left and right double quotes instead
 of an inch character appear).

 One thing that you should be aware of is that left and right typographical
 quote characters in Myriad Pro (a sans serif font) have much more subtle
 differences than such differences in Minion Pro (a serif font). You have to
 look closely to see the differences which are primarily in whether the
 lines
 are thicker at the top or bottom. This is not that unusual for san serif
 fonts!

 If that is not the issue, perhaps you are using an older version of Myriad
 Pro?
 I personally don't recall changes in Myriad Pro over the years to fix any
 problem
 of this class, but I will check on this with my expert friends in the Adobe
 Type
 Development organization. The current version of Myriad Pro, appearing with
 Acrobat 9
 (and I believe Reader 9) and Font Folio 11 is version 2.037. The version of
 Myriad
 Pro that shipped with FrameMaker 8 is 2.007 which is probably the same
 version that
 shipped with CS3 and possibly Acrobat 8.

 - Dov



  -Original Message-
  From: Joel Wilhelm
  Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:36 PM
 
  Thanks for the replies. I messed with some different fonts and it does
 look
  like a problem with Myriad Pro. Minion Pro produces smart quotes, as well
 as
  other fonts. Myriad won't do it. Bummer.
  Joel
 
  On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Joel Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   I am using Frame 8 and I *cannot* get smart quotes to work. I chose
 Format
Document  Text Options and checked smart quotes, then tried what the
   manual says, and I still get straight quotes. I am on XP, using Myriad
 Pro
   for my font. What am I doing wrong?
   Thanks,
  
   Joel
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Re: Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Jim Owens]

My Windows system has Times (Type 1), Times New Roman (Type 1), and 
Times New Roman (TrueType).  The Times font is listed in the Fonts 
window under the name Times Roman, but when I view it, it is entitled 
Times (Type 1).

When you view a font selected from the Fonts window, you see the upper 
and lower case alphabets, the numerics, and a series of sample sentences 
(The quick brown fox. . .) at different font sizes. Here is what I 
observe on my screen (my printer is an HP with simulated Postscript, so 
I'm not relying on the printouts):

The Times (Type 1) alphabet takes the most horizontal space. The Times 
New Roman (OpenType) alphabet takes less space, by about one character 
over the length of the alphabet. The Times New Roman (Type 1) takes the 
least space, by about two characters over the length of the alphabet 
compared to Times.

Notwithstanding this, there is almost no discernible difference in the 
length of the Times (Type1) and Times New Roman (Type 1) sample 
sentences, while the Times New Roman (OpenType) sample sentences are 
about two characters shorter over the length (the 0 falls roughly 
under the 8 of the other two).

The leading between the sample sentences differs. The samples in Times 
(Type 1) take the least vertical space. The Times New Roman (OpenType) 
samples take more (the top of the 72pt T aligns roughly with the top 
of the Times 72pt e), and the Times New Roman (Type 1) takes the most 
(the top of the 72pt T is just a little higher than the horizontal 
line in the Times 72pt e).

The Times (Type1) face has the largest x-height. The other two have the 
same x-height, as far as I can tell. The contrast between the thick and 
thin portions of the letters is greatest for Times, less for Times New 
Roman (Type1), and least for Times New Roman (OpenType).

My overall impression is that Times (Type1) is the easiest font to read 
at 12pt. If I may veer into completely qualitative analysis, it has a 
traditional, rather calm feeling. The Times New Roman (Type1) has a more 
efficient, urgent feeling, and is slightly less legible. The Times New 
Roman (OpenType) is the least pleasant font; it has a cramped feeling.

Hope this helps.






 
 In short, any information would be appreciated, and will help me to
 communicate to the printer support people in my organization what the
 issues are. Right now they just regard me as the troublemaker who uses
 Framemaker...
 
 Thanks,
 Paul
 

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Re: Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Art Campbell]

The Xerox drive is probably PostScript compliant, the H-P, from your
description, is probably not. So far as I know. PS is still and extra
item on most H-P systems, which means that they use HPGL as the
default page description language.

Depending on your final output, many shops and users find that the
best setup is to standardize on the Adobe Acrobat PDF logical printer
as the system (of Frame -- there's a plug in that lets it be set to
default only within FM) default printer. Moving to the Adobe Acrobat
default is likely to solve your font problem too, because it is likely
to use the same fonts as the Xeros does.

Art

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Inbar, Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi all,

 Let me apologize for asking another font question. I have been looking
 at previous posts and articles on the web, but am still not sure I
 understand the issues and consequences.

 Basically, our frame templates use a font called Times for our regular
 Body paragraph tag.

 On our Xerox network printers, everything seems to be fine. However,
 they are going to be taken offline in a few weeks.

 Recently, a new HP network printer was installed. When I made the HP
 printer the default printer and opened up one of our documents, I got
 the Document named aaa.fm uses unavailable fonts. To reformat using
 available fonts, click OK message. I opened the doc. Times appeared
 checked but greyed out in the right-click context menu. I printed on the
 HP. The printout looks identical, as far as I can tell, to the same doc
 printed on the xerox. I saved and closed, when I opened again, I got the
 same unavailable fonts message. When I make the Xerox printer the
 default once again, and open the document, I don't get the unavailable
 fonts message, and Times is once again black in the right-click font
 context menu.

 I looked around my system, in all the folders I saw mentioned in various
 sites, but didn't find Times anywhere. In the PDD file for the Xerox
 printer there is a line that has Times on it. The printer support people
 printed out the list of fonts on the HP. It doesn't appear to have
 Times.

 Now, I have several questions. I realize that it may not be possible to
 know exactly from this description what is going on, but I welcome
 guesses.

 Does it sound like I don't really have Times on my system, but
 Framemaker acts like Times is there when the Xerox is the selected
 printer because the Xerox has it?

 If the HP doesn't have it, what are the consequences of that? Which font
 did it use? Does it decide itself what is most compatible? It doesn't
 seem to have changed anything in my document. When I go back to the
 Xerox, Times seems ok again. Will the unavailable fonts message
 interfere with smooth updating of the book?

 What is the best course of action to take:

 Try to buy Times somewhere? (Or rather, try to convince my organization
 to buy Times somewhere)
 Change my templates to use Times New Roman?
 Just live with the unavailable fonts message?

 It once seemed to me that Times New Roman was a bit more crowded than
 Times. That's why I always resisted Times New Roman. Is the difference
 just a figment of my imagination? Also, is there a difference in
 appearance between Times Roman and Times New Roman?

 In short, any information would be appreciated, and will help me to
 communicate to the printer support people in my organization what the
 issues are. Right now they just regard me as the troublemaker who uses
 Framemaker...

 Thanks,
 Paul




 -
 Intel Israel (74) Limited

 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for
 the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution
 by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
 recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
 ___



-- 
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358
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3D Reviewer to FM to PDF

[Fabio Di Francesco]

Hi All, 

 

My company recently purchased Adobe's Technical Communication Suite and we're 
slowly incorporating some of our 3D CAD models (Inventor) into our technical 
documentation. Using the 3D Reviewer available with Acrobat Extended Pro, I 
created a simple animation, exported my file to the u3d format, and then 
imported this file into FM, version 8. Upon generating my PDF, the animation 
which I created is not available. I've posted this issue on the AUC site as 
well, but have yet to receive a reply. Basically, I'd like to know if anyone 
has any experience using 3D Reviewer seeing that it was recently released, and 
if my problem is related to FM or 3D Reviewer. 

 

Thank you...



Fabio Di Francesco

Technical Writer/Rédacteur Technique

NJM/CLI Packaging Systems International

Tel: 514-630-6990 Ext. 153

www.njmcli.com

 

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Convert XML to FM8

[eva.heljesten]

Hi,
I am new to this list, and right now I feel semi-new to FM as well. I did
work with FM 6 some years back, but never with structured material, and now
it seems I am yet again to embark on the FM train. I may take on a job of
converting a couple of user guides from xml (or possibly sgm, don't have all
the details yet) into fm, since the client wants an easier interface to do
future updates themselves.
So, since I think I can relatively easily get up to date on the FM side of
things (I don't think it has changed that much from ver 6 to 8?), I would
need some help to get started on the structured side. 
I assume I will be provided with a DTD plus of course all the source files
(xml or sgm). But then, are there any particular pitfalls I should avoid
when converting the files in FM 8? Do I need to create templates first, or
will fm templates be created for me based on the old set of files? What are
the most likely problems - cross references, images, TOCs, indexes, etc?
Is there any particular order you all would recommend for doing things in
regards to this?
If you have any links or references I could read up on that relates to this
type of project, it would be great. As far as I have understood there is no
up-to-date user books on the structured side of FM 8 as yet (apart form the
built-in help)?
When I look at the menu option StructureTools/Utilities/Convert Structured
Documents there is a listbox called Application. How does that work? At what
point can I choose something from that list, and how do I know what format
each of these options is? I couldn't find much on that in the FM help. Or,
is that not applicable at all for what I want to achieve?
And, before selecting that, should I set the DTD path (StructeTools/Open
DTD)?
As you see, I have many questions, some I guess quite basic. But I still
hope you will help me get started in this. It would be great just to have a
few sample files to play along with for a while, but I haven't found
anything suitable yet.
 
Anyway, many thanks in advance.
 
Eva

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RE: Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Dov Isaacs]

The original problem reported by Paul stems from the Windows
phantom phont phenomena! Windows font enumeration, used by standard
Windows applications (such as FrameMaker), allows printer drivers to
insert font information to be passed back to the application even if
such fonts are not actually installed on the system. PostScript printer
drivers (and specifically, the standard PSCRIPT5 driver of Windows 2000,
XP, and Vista) enumerates all fonts found in the PPD file - for Adobe
PostScript 3 devices, this could be up to 136 fonts! PCL drivers often
enumerate fonts built into the printer.

If you actually try to use a phantom phont in your document and the
font is indeed printer-resident for the printer you have set as the
current print device, Windows will substitute something on the screen
and your output will use the printer version of that font.

The workaround that I have advocated for over seven years (first documented
as part of a workaround for the infamous Zapf Dingbats problem - see
http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.ef4dc7a) is to edit all PostScript
printer PPD files, either prior to doing a PostScript printer driver
instance installation or afterwards (both are tricky) to eliminate ALL
font references except one - you must keep the line that defines Courier.
Once such an edit is made, the driver no longer enumerates printer-resident,
i.e., phantom, fonts to application programs.

Note that applications that bypass the OS font enumeration (such as Illustrator,
Photoshop, InDesign, and Acrobat) aren't phooled by the phantom phont phenomena!

Per Art's response, no, moving to the Adobe Acrobat (Adobe PDF) printer
default won't solve the problem since Times is not a native font of the
Distiller.

If you really want/need Times, you have the following options:

(1) Change all occurrences of Times in your documents and templates
to Times New Roman remembering that Times New Roman is in fact a different
font than Times although Microsoft (via Monotype) endeavored to keep the
set widths of the characters in Times New Roman the same as those of Times
to minimize the chance of line ending differences.

(2) If you have a Xerox printer that uses Adobe PostScript, it came with
a CD or DVD with host-based versions of the printer resident fonts. You
can install the fonts you need from that CD onto your computer.

(3) You can license either the Type 1 version of Times from Adobe or
with changes to your document for the font name, the OpenType version,
Times LT Std and install that font on your system.

- Dov




 -Original Message-
 From: Art Campbell
 Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:11 AM

 The Xerox drive is probably PostScript compliant, the H-P, from your
 description, is probably not. So far as I know. PS is still and extra
 item on most H-P systems, which means that they use HPGL as the
 default page description language.

 Depending on your final output, many shops and users find that the
 best setup is to standardize on the Adobe Acrobat PDF logical printer
 as the system (of Frame -- there's a plug in that lets it be set to
 default only within FM) default printer. Moving to the Adobe Acrobat
 default is likely to solve your font problem too, because it is likely
 to use the same fonts as the Xeros does.

 Art

 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Inbar, Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi all,
 
  Let me apologize for asking another font question. I have been looking
  at previous posts and articles on the web, but am still not sure I
  understand the issues and consequences.
 
  Basically, our frame templates use a font called Times for our regular
  Body paragraph tag.
 
  On our Xerox network printers, everything seems to be fine. However,
  they are going to be taken offline in a few weeks.
 
  Recently, a new HP network printer was installed. When I made the HP
  printer the default printer and opened up one of our documents, I got
  the Document named aaa.fm uses unavailable fonts. To reformat using
  available fonts, click OK message. I opened the doc. Times appeared
  checked but greyed out in the right-click context menu. I printed on the
  HP. The printout looks identical, as far as I can tell, to the same doc
  printed on the xerox. I saved and closed, when I opened again, I got the
  same unavailable fonts message. When I make the Xerox printer the
  default once again, and open the document, I don't get the unavailable
  fonts message, and Times is once again black in the right-click font
  context menu.
 
  I looked around my system, in all the folders I saw mentioned in various
  sites, but didn't find Times anywhere. In the PDD file for the Xerox
  printer there is a line that has Times on it. The printer support people
  printed out the list of fonts on the HP. It doesn't appear to have
  Times.
 
  Now, I have several questions. I realize that it may not be possible to
  know exactly from this description what is going on, but I welcome
  guesses.
 
  Does 

RE: Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Combs, Richard]

Art Campbell wrote: 
 
 The Xerox drive is probably PostScript compliant, the H-P, from your
 description, is probably not. So far as I know. PS is still and extra
 item on most H-P systems, which means that they use HPGL as the
 default page description language.

Actually, HP printers use PCL (Printer Control Language) by default
(plotters use HPGL). Here's a comparison of PostScript and PCL from HP
(some pro-PCL bias should be assumed): 

http://tinyurl.com/57zs8v
 
 Depending on your final output, many shops and users find that the
 best setup is to standardize on the Adobe Acrobat PDF logical printer
 as the system (of Frame -- there's a plug in that lets it be set to
 default only within FM) default printer. Moving to the Adobe Acrobat
 default is likely to solve your font problem too, because it is likely
 to use the same fonts as the Xeros does.

The setup suggestion is a good idea. The plugin is SetPrint from
Sundorne Communications:

http://www.sundorne.com/FrameMaker/Freeware/setPrint.htm

But Art is exactly wrong about the font problem. With a Xerox PostScript
printer as your FM printer, you have access to the PostScript fonts that
reside on the printer (typically, PS printers have the standard 35 PS
fonts). When you switch to Acrobat as your printer, you'll only have
available the fonts that are actually installed on your computer. Unless
you've purchased and installed a package like Adobe Type Basics, you
probably won't have all the fonts you've been used to using because
they're on your printer. 

OTOH, you shouldn't be using fonts that aren't on your PC -- you can't
embed them in your PDFs, so if you release those, your readers are
seeing some ugly font substitutions. 

HTH!
Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--





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RE: Vertical line between columns of text

[Kristy Nolan]

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Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Inbar, Paul]

Hi all,

Let me apologize for asking another font question. I have been looking
at previous posts and articles on the web, but am still not sure I
understand the issues and consequences.

Basically, our frame templates use a font called Times for our regular
Body paragraph tag.

On our Xerox network printers, everything seems to be fine. However,
they are going to be taken offline in a few weeks. 

Recently, a new HP network printer was installed. When I made the HP
printer the default printer and opened up one of our documents, I got
the "Document named aaa.fm uses unavailable fonts. To reformat using
available fonts, click OK" message. I opened the doc. Times appeared
checked but greyed out in the right-click context menu. I printed on the
HP. The printout looks identical, as far as I can tell, to the same doc
printed on the xerox. I saved and closed, when I opened again, I got the
same unavailable fonts message. When I make the Xerox printer the
default once again, and open the document, I don't get the unavailable
fonts message, and Times is once again black in the right-click font
context menu.

I looked around my system, in all the folders I saw mentioned in various
sites, but didn't find Times anywhere. In the PDD file for the Xerox
printer there is a line that has Times on it. The printer support people
printed out the list of fonts on the HP. It doesn't appear to have
Times.

Now, I have several questions. I realize that it may not be possible to
know exactly from this description what is going on, but I welcome
guesses.

Does it sound like I don't really have Times on my system, but
Framemaker acts like Times is there when the Xerox is the selected
printer because the Xerox has it?

If the HP doesn't have it, what are the consequences of that? Which font
did it use? Does it decide itself what is most compatible? It doesn't
seem to have changed anything in my document. When I go back to the
Xerox, Times seems ok again. Will the unavailable fonts message
interfere with smooth updating of the book?

What is the best course of action to take: 

Try to buy Times somewhere? (Or rather, try to convince my organization
to buy Times somewhere)
Change my templates to use Times New Roman?
Just live with the unavailable fonts message?

It once seemed to me that Times New Roman was a bit more crowded than
Times. That's why I always resisted Times New Roman. Is the difference
just a figment of my imagination? Also, is there a difference in
appearance between Times Roman and Times New Roman?

In short, any information would be appreciated, and will help me to
communicate to the printer support people in my organization what the
issues are. Right now they just regard me as the troublemaker who uses
Framemaker...

Thanks,
Paul




-
Intel Israel (74) Limited

This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for
the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution
by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.

Smart quotes

[Joel Wilhelm]

I magnified to 800% and the quotes are indeed slightly different. I guess
it's just hard to notice in Myriad.
Joel

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Susan Modlin  wrote:

> The version that Dov mentions is the same one that shipped with FrameMaker
> 7.0.
>
> Joel, try this: Change your magnification to 800% and look at your Mryiad
> Pro quotes. You should be able to see a subtle shift in the weight between
> the open and close quotes. They both slant to the right, but the open quotes
> are bottom heavy and the close quotes are top heavy.
>
> HTH,
>
> ...Susan
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Dov Isaacs 
> To: Joel Wilhelm ; Framers 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 5:46:22 PM
> Subject: RE: Smart quotes
>
> OK, I tried this myself with FrameMaker 8.0p277 (the latest update).
> I typed the same text with quotes (using the standard US keyboard straight
> double quote - i.e., the inch character - as my double quote character)
> in Times New Roman, Arial, Minion Pro, and Myriad Pro.
>
> For all four lines of text with those four fonts, I achieved the proper
> "smart quotes" results including Myriad Pro. It shows up correctly on
> the screen in FrameMaker, prints correctly, and saves as PDF correctly
> (i.e., the proper "smart quotes" - left and right double quotes instead
> of an inch character appear).
>
> One thing that you should be aware of is that left and right typographical
> quote characters in Myriad Pro (a sans serif font) have much more subtle
> differences than such differences in Minion Pro (a serif font). You have to
> look closely to see the differences which are primarily in whether the
> lines
> are thicker at the top or bottom. This is not that unusual for san serif
> fonts!
>
> If that is not the issue, perhaps you are using an older version of Myriad
> Pro?
> I personally don't recall changes in Myriad Pro over the years to fix any
> problem
> of this class, but I will check on this with my expert friends in the Adobe
> Type
> Development organization. The current version of Myriad Pro, appearing with
> Acrobat 9
> (and I believe Reader 9) and Font Folio 11 is version 2.037. The version of
> Myriad
> Pro that shipped with FrameMaker 8 is 2.007 which is probably the same
> version that
> shipped with CS3 and possibly Acrobat 8.
>
> - Dov
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Joel Wilhelm
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:36 PM
> >
> > Thanks for the replies. I messed with some different fonts and it does
> look
> > like a problem with Myriad Pro. Minion Pro produces smart quotes, as well
> as
> > other fonts. Myriad won't do it. Bummer.
> > Joel
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Joel Wilhelm  wrote:
> >
> > > I am using Frame 8 and I *cannot* get smart quotes to work. I chose
> Format
> > > > Document > Text Options and checked smart quotes, then tried what the
> > > manual says, and I still get straight quotes. I am on XP, using Myriad
> Pro
> > > for my font. What am I doing wrong?
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Joel
> ___
>
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>

Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Jim Owens]

My Windows system has Times (Type 1), Times New Roman (Type 1), and 
Times New Roman (TrueType).  The Times font is listed in the Fonts 
window under the name "Times Roman", but when I view it, it is entitled 
"Times (Type 1)".

When you view a font selected from the Fonts window, you see the upper 
and lower case alphabets, the numerics, and a series of sample sentences 
("The quick brown fox. . .") at different font sizes. Here is what I 
observe on my screen (my printer is an HP with simulated Postscript, so 
I'm not relying on the printouts):

The Times (Type 1) alphabet takes the most horizontal space. The Times 
New Roman (OpenType) alphabet takes less space, by about one character 
over the length of the alphabet. The Times New Roman (Type 1) takes the 
least space, by about two characters over the length of the alphabet 
compared to Times.

Notwithstanding this, there is almost no discernible difference in the 
length of the Times (Type1) and Times New Roman (Type 1) sample 
sentences, while the Times New Roman (OpenType) sample sentences are 
about two characters shorter over the length (the "0" falls roughly 
under the "8" of the other two).

The leading between the sample sentences differs. The samples in Times 
(Type 1) take the least vertical space. The Times New Roman (OpenType) 
samples take more (the top of the 72pt "T" aligns roughly with the top 
of the Times 72pt "e"), and the Times New Roman (Type 1) takes the most 
(the top of the 72pt "T" is just a little higher than the horizontal 
line in the Times 72pt "e").

The Times (Type1) face has the largest x-height. The other two have the 
same x-height, as far as I can tell. The contrast between the thick and 
thin portions of the letters is greatest for Times, less for Times New 
Roman (Type1), and least for Times New Roman (OpenType).

My overall impression is that Times (Type1) is the easiest font to read 
at 12pt. If I may veer into completely qualitative analysis, it has a 
traditional, rather calm feeling. The Times New Roman (Type1) has a more 
efficient, urgent feeling, and is slightly less legible. The Times New 
Roman (OpenType) is the least pleasant font; it has a cramped feeling.

Hope this helps.






> 
> In short, any information would be appreciated, and will help me to
> communicate to the printer support people in my organization what the
> issues are. Right now they just regard me as the troublemaker who uses
> Framemaker...
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul
> 

Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Art Campbell]

The Xerox drive is probably PostScript compliant, the H-P, from your
description, is probably not. So far as I know. PS is still and extra
item on most H-P systems, which means that they use HPGL as the
default page description language.

Depending on your final output, many shops and users find that the
best setup is to standardize on the Adobe Acrobat PDF logical printer
as the system (of Frame -- there's a plug in that lets it be set to
default only within FM) default printer. Moving to the Adobe Acrobat
default is likely to solve your font problem too, because it is likely
to use the same fonts as the Xeros does.

Art

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Inbar, Paul  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Let me apologize for asking another font question. I have been looking
> at previous posts and articles on the web, but am still not sure I
> understand the issues and consequences.
>
> Basically, our frame templates use a font called Times for our regular
> Body paragraph tag.
>
> On our Xerox network printers, everything seems to be fine. However,
> they are going to be taken offline in a few weeks.
>
> Recently, a new HP network printer was installed. When I made the HP
> printer the default printer and opened up one of our documents, I got
> the "Document named aaa.fm uses unavailable fonts. To reformat using
> available fonts, click OK" message. I opened the doc. Times appeared
> checked but greyed out in the right-click context menu. I printed on the
> HP. The printout looks identical, as far as I can tell, to the same doc
> printed on the xerox. I saved and closed, when I opened again, I got the
> same unavailable fonts message. When I make the Xerox printer the
> default once again, and open the document, I don't get the unavailable
> fonts message, and Times is once again black in the right-click font
> context menu.
>
> I looked around my system, in all the folders I saw mentioned in various
> sites, but didn't find Times anywhere. In the PDD file for the Xerox
> printer there is a line that has Times on it. The printer support people
> printed out the list of fonts on the HP. It doesn't appear to have
> Times.
>
> Now, I have several questions. I realize that it may not be possible to
> know exactly from this description what is going on, but I welcome
> guesses.
>
> Does it sound like I don't really have Times on my system, but
> Framemaker acts like Times is there when the Xerox is the selected
> printer because the Xerox has it?
>
> If the HP doesn't have it, what are the consequences of that? Which font
> did it use? Does it decide itself what is most compatible? It doesn't
> seem to have changed anything in my document. When I go back to the
> Xerox, Times seems ok again. Will the unavailable fonts message
> interfere with smooth updating of the book?
>
> What is the best course of action to take:
>
> Try to buy Times somewhere? (Or rather, try to convince my organization
> to buy Times somewhere)
> Change my templates to use Times New Roman?
> Just live with the unavailable fonts message?
>
> It once seemed to me that Times New Roman was a bit more crowded than
> Times. That's why I always resisted Times New Roman. Is the difference
> just a figment of my imagination? Also, is there a difference in
> appearance between Times Roman and Times New Roman?
>
> In short, any information would be appreciated, and will help me to
> communicate to the printer support people in my organization what the
> issues are. Right now they just regard me as the troublemaker who uses
> Framemaker...
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> -
> Intel Israel (74) Limited
>
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for
> the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution
> by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
> ___
>
>

-- 
Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358

Convert XML to FM8

[eva.heljes...@gmail.com]

Hi,
I am new to this list, and right now I feel semi-new to FM as well. I did
work with FM 6 some years back, but never with structured material, and now
it seems I am yet again to embark on the FM train. I may take on a job of
converting a couple of user guides from xml (or possibly sgm, don't have all
the details yet) into fm, since the client wants an easier interface to do
future updates themselves.
So, since I think I can relatively easily get up to date on the FM side of
things (I don't think it has changed that much from ver 6 to 8?), I would
need some help to get started on the structured side. 
I assume I will be provided with a DTD plus of course all the source files
(xml or sgm). But then, are there any particular pitfalls I should avoid
when converting the files in FM 8? Do I need to create templates first, or
will fm templates be created for me based on the old set of files? What are
the most likely problems - cross references, images, TOCs, indexes, etc?
Is there any particular order you all would recommend for doing things in
regards to this?
If you have any links or references I could read up on that relates to this
type of project, it would be great. As far as I have understood there is no
up-to-date user books on the structured side of FM 8 as yet (apart form the
built-in help)?
When I look at the menu option StructureTools/Utilities/Convert Structured
Documents there is a listbox called Application. How does that work? At what
point can I choose something from that list, and how do I know what format
each of these options is? I couldn't find much on that in the FM help. Or,
is that not applicable at all for what I want to achieve?
And, before selecting that, should I set the DTD path (StructeTools/Open
DTD)?
As you see, I have many questions, some I guess quite basic. But I still
hope you will help me get started in this. It would be great just to have a
few sample files to play along with for a while, but I haven't found
anything suitable yet.

Anyway, many thanks in advance.

Eva

Convert XML to FM8

[feimin_lore...@amis.com]

Hi Eva:

Sorry I don't have time to answer all your questions, but there are lots 
of better-qualified people on this list who can help you out. My 
suggestions for more information are:

The Scriptorium wiki: http://wiki.scriptorium.com/tiki-index.php. 
Scriptorium is generally a good source of FrameMaker information.
I'm using FrameMaker 7.2, but perhaps there's something similar in 
FrameMaker 8: C:\Program Files\Adobe\FrameMaker7.2\samples\fmsgml. There's 
a sample structured document and its EDD in that folder for you to play 
with.
I thought I heard about a structured FrameMaker cookbook, but I can't find 
it. Maybe this will help: 
http://www.adobe.com/support/documentation/en/framemaker/#xmldita. At 
least the Structured Application Developer's Guide (FrameMaker 8) can 
answer your question about "StructureTools/Utilities/Convert Structured 
Documents there is a listbox called Application"

Good luck!

Fei Min Lorente

Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Dov Isaacs]

The original problem reported by Paul stems from the Windows
"phantom phont phenomena!" Windows font enumeration, used by standard
Windows applications (such as FrameMaker), allows printer drivers to
insert font information to be passed back to the application even if
such fonts are not actually installed on the system. PostScript printer
drivers (and specifically, the standard PSCRIPT5 driver of Windows 2000,
XP, and Vista) enumerates all fonts found in the PPD file - for Adobe
PostScript 3 devices, this could be up to 136 fonts! PCL drivers often
enumerate fonts built into the printer.

If you actually try to use a phantom phont in your document and the
font is indeed printer-resident for the printer you have set as the
current print device, Windows will substitute something on the screen
and your output will use the printer version of that font.

The workaround that I have advocated for over seven years (first documented
as part of a workaround for the infamous Zapf Dingbats problem - see
) is to edit all PostScript
printer PPD files, either prior to doing a PostScript printer driver
instance installation or afterwards (both are tricky) to eliminate ALL
font references except one - you must keep the line that defines Courier.
Once such an edit is made, the driver no longer enumerates printer-resident,
i.e., phantom, fonts to application programs.

Note that applications that bypass the OS font enumeration (such as Illustrator,
Photoshop, InDesign, and Acrobat) aren't phooled by the phantom phont phenomena!

Per Art's response, no, moving to the Adobe Acrobat (Adobe PDF) printer
default won't solve the problem since Times is not a native font of the
Distiller.

If you really want/need Times, you have the following options:

(1) Change all occurrences of "Times" in your documents and templates
to "Times New Roman" remembering that "Times New Roman" is in fact a different
font than "Times" although Microsoft (via Monotype) endeavored to keep the
"set widths" of the characters in Times New Roman the same as those of Times
to minimize the chance of line ending differences.

(2) If you have a Xerox printer that uses Adobe PostScript, it came with
a CD or DVD with host-based versions of the printer resident fonts. You
can install the fonts you need from that CD onto your computer.

(3) You can license either the Type 1 version of Times from Adobe or
with changes to your document for the font name, the OpenType version,
Times LT Std and install that font on your system.

- Dov




> -Original Message-
> From: Art Campbell
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:11 AM
>
> The Xerox drive is probably PostScript compliant, the H-P, from your
> description, is probably not. So far as I know. PS is still and extra
> item on most H-P systems, which means that they use HPGL as the
> default page description language.
>
> Depending on your final output, many shops and users find that the
> best setup is to standardize on the Adobe Acrobat PDF logical printer
> as the system (of Frame -- there's a plug in that lets it be set to
> default only within FM) default printer. Moving to the Adobe Acrobat
> default is likely to solve your font problem too, because it is likely
> to use the same fonts as the Xeros does.
>
> Art
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Inbar, Paul  wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Let me apologize for asking another font question. I have been looking
> > at previous posts and articles on the web, but am still not sure I
> > understand the issues and consequences.
> >
> > Basically, our frame templates use a font called Times for our regular
> > Body paragraph tag.
> >
> > On our Xerox network printers, everything seems to be fine. However,
> > they are going to be taken offline in a few weeks.
> >
> > Recently, a new HP network printer was installed. When I made the HP
> > printer the default printer and opened up one of our documents, I got
> > the "Document named aaa.fm uses unavailable fonts. To reformat using
> > available fonts, click OK" message. I opened the doc. Times appeared
> > checked but greyed out in the right-click context menu. I printed on the
> > HP. The printout looks identical, as far as I can tell, to the same doc
> > printed on the xerox. I saved and closed, when I opened again, I got the
> > same unavailable fonts message. When I make the Xerox printer the
> > default once again, and open the document, I don't get the unavailable
> > fonts message, and Times is once again black in the right-click font
> > context menu.
> >
> > I looked around my system, in all the folders I saw mentioned in various
> > sites, but didn't find Times anywhere. In the PDD file for the Xerox
> > printer there is a line that has Times on it. The printer support people
> > printed out the list of fonts on the HP. It doesn't appear to have
> > Times.
> >
> > Now, I have several questions. I realize that it may not be possible to
> > know 

Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, and changing printers, etc.

[Combs, Richard]

Art Campbell wrote: 

> The Xerox drive is probably PostScript compliant, the H-P, from your
> description, is probably not. So far as I know. PS is still and extra
> item on most H-P systems, which means that they use HPGL as the
> default page description language.

Actually, HP printers use PCL (Printer Control Language) by default
(plotters use HPGL). Here's a comparison of PostScript and PCL from HP
(some pro-PCL bias should be assumed): 

http://tinyurl.com/57zs8v

> Depending on your final output, many shops and users find that the
> best setup is to standardize on the Adobe Acrobat PDF logical printer
> as the system (of Frame -- there's a plug in that lets it be set to
> default only within FM) default printer. Moving to the Adobe Acrobat
> default is likely to solve your font problem too, because it is likely
> to use the same fonts as the Xeros does.

The setup suggestion is a good idea. The plugin is SetPrint from
Sundorne Communications:

http://www.sundorne.com/FrameMaker/Freeware/setPrint.htm

But Art is exactly wrong about the font problem. With a Xerox PostScript
printer as your FM printer, you have access to the PostScript fonts that
reside on the printer (typically, PS printers have the "standard 35" PS
fonts). When you switch to Acrobat as your printer, you'll only have
available the fonts that are actually installed on your computer. Unless
you've purchased and installed a package like Adobe Type Basics, you
probably won't have all the fonts you've been used to using because
they're on your printer. 

OTOH, you shouldn't be using fonts that aren't on your PC -- you can't
embed them in your PDFs, so if you release those, your readers are
seeing some ugly font substitutions. 

HTH!
Richard


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Vertical line between columns of text

[Kristy Nolan]

Vertical line between columns of text

[Art Campbell]

It depends a little on your application, but for a newspaper or mag
style page, it's easy. Just go to the Master Page(s) for the layout
and put the vertical rule in place.

Art

Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358



On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Alan Litchfield  
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Not sure if this can be done, but is it possible for FM to create a
> vertical line between columns of text?
>
> Cheers
> Alan
> --
> Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
> AlphaByte
> PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
> http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
>

What is the purpose of round-tripping Structured Framemaker and XML

[Celine Deguire]

Hello Framers

I'm trying to figure out why I would need to round-trip between Structured
Framemaker sources and XML. I thought it would be for translation purposes
but one of my translators tells me that Trados (Tag editor) allows editing
(translating) structured FM sources as well as XML.

Regards

Celine