Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[David Creamer]

>Not tagged. Never do that.

Tagged PDFs should be used unless there is a problem with using the setting.
They are required for PDF reviews, 508 accessibility, Acrobat editing and
export*.

*Non-tagged PDFs tend to treat each line as a separate paragraph, while
tagged PDFs "remember" the paragraph settings. In Acrobat, tagged PDFs can
even reflow paragraphs during editing.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training

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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[quills]

I have found that RTF is a much more robust and dependable format than Word 
.docx format. No surprise there.

We always used Tags in PDF, so we have a relatively seamless exchange in 
formats. 

> On Apr 18, 2018, at 12:57, Böðvar Björgvinsson  wrote:
> 
> Mike,
> Thanks. Good to know! :-)
> 
> Bodvar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 4:46 PM, Mike Wickham  wrote:
>> 
>> If you're going to convert to Word from PDF, you might want to used tagged
>> PDF for the conversion. Original PDF was not interested in the data, only
>> its position. PDFs purpose is page layout. The idea of PDF is to create a
>> document that looks exactly the same on every computer screen, with no
>> changes due to text flow, installed fonts, window size, etc. Consequently,
>> it stores data in very strange ways. Words aren't necessarily stored as
>> words, or paragraphs as paragraphs. The phrase "text frame" might be stored
>> as "te," "xtf," "r," and "ame" objects, for example, and PDF tracks which
>> font and where to draw these bits of text. It's weird that the text blocks
>> that are created by PDF, and the visible order of them, might even be
>> stored in a different order in the file. So trying to put these objects
>> back into proper order for conversion to other formats may not work well.
>> 
>> Anyway, as I recall, using tagged PDF causes the PDF to actually store
>> paragraphs as paragraph blocks, etc. So, reconstructing the data in a
>> proper way for conversion from PDF to Word should be better.
>> 
>> Mike Wickham
>> 
>>> On 4/18/2018 5:29 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mike,
>>> Not tagged. Never do that.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:09 AM, Mike Wickham 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Bodvar,
 
 It might depend on whether the PDF was saved as tagged PDF or not.
 
 Mike Wickham
 
 On 4/17/2018 12:35 PM, Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote:
 
 
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Böðvar Björgvinsson]

Mike,
Thanks. Good to know! :-)

Bodvar





On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 4:46 PM, Mike Wickham  wrote:

> If you're going to convert to Word from PDF, you might want to used tagged
> PDF for the conversion. Original PDF was not interested in the data, only
> its position. PDFs purpose is page layout. The idea of PDF is to create a
> document that looks exactly the same on every computer screen, with no
> changes due to text flow, installed fonts, window size, etc. Consequently,
> it stores data in very strange ways. Words aren't necessarily stored as
> words, or paragraphs as paragraphs. The phrase "text frame" might be stored
> as "te," "xtf," "r," and "ame" objects, for example, and PDF tracks which
> font and where to draw these bits of text. It's weird that the text blocks
> that are created by PDF, and the visible order of them, might even be
> stored in a different order in the file. So trying to put these objects
> back into proper order for conversion to other formats may not work well.
>
> Anyway, as I recall, using tagged PDF causes the PDF to actually store
> paragraphs as paragraph blocks, etc. So, reconstructing the data in a
> proper way for conversion from PDF to Word should be better.
>
> Mike Wickham
>
> On 4/18/2018 5:29 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> Not tagged. Never do that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:09 AM, Mike Wickham 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Bodvar,
>>>
>>> It might depend on whether the PDF was saved as tagged PDF or not.
>>>
>>> Mike Wickham
>>>
>>> On 4/17/2018 12:35 PM, Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote:
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Mike Wickham]

If you're going to convert to Word from PDF, you might want to used 
tagged PDF for the conversion. Original PDF was not interested in the 
data, only its position. PDFs purpose is page layout. The idea of PDF is 
to create a document that looks exactly the same on every computer 
screen, with no changes due to text flow, installed fonts, window size, 
etc. Consequently, it stores data in very strange ways. Words aren't 
necessarily stored as words, or paragraphs as paragraphs. The phrase 
"text frame" might be stored as "te," "xtf," "r," and "ame" objects, for 
example, and PDF tracks which font and where to draw these bits of text. 
It's weird that the text blocks that are created by PDF, and the visible 
order of them, might even be stored in a different order in the file. So 
trying to put these objects back into proper order for conversion to 
other formats may not work well.


Anyway, as I recall, using tagged PDF causes the PDF to actually store 
paragraphs as paragraph blocks, etc. So, reconstructing the data in a 
proper way for conversion from PDF to Word should be better.


Mike Wickham

On 4/18/2018 5:29 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote:

Mike,
Not tagged. Never do that.





On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:09 AM, Mike Wickham  wrote:


Bodvar,

It might depend on whether the PDF was saved as tagged PDF or not.

Mike Wickham

On 4/17/2018 12:35 PM, Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote:



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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Böðvar Björgvinsson]

Mike,
Not tagged. Never do that.





On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:09 AM, Mike Wickham  wrote:

> Bodvar,
>
> It might depend on whether the PDF was saved as tagged PDF or not.
>
> Mike Wickham
>
> On 4/17/2018 12:35 PM, Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote:
>
>> Peter Gold,
>> pdf-ed by printing book from FM 2013 to file, then distilling. In Acrobat
>> Save as Word. My only guess is that this font is a bit more exaggerated
>> serif than the standard Times (etc.) and the font size was only 10 pt.
>> Also,  it seemed to create a text frame on each page for the contents.
>>
>> Bodvar
>>
>>
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Mike Wickham]

Bodvar,

It might depend on whether the PDF was saved as tagged PDF or not.

Mike Wickham

On 4/17/2018 12:35 PM, Böðvar Björgvinsson wrote:

Peter Gold,
pdf-ed by printing book from FM 2013 to file, then distilling. In Acrobat
Save as Word. My only guess is that this font is a bit more exaggerated
serif than the standard Times (etc.) and the font size was only 10 pt.
Also,  it seemed to create a text frame on each page for the contents.

Bodvar



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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Böðvar Björgvinsson]

Peter Gold,
pdf-ed by printing book from FM 2013 to file, then distilling. In Acrobat
Save as Word. My only guess is that this font is a bit more exaggerated
serif than the standard Times (etc.) and the font size was only 10 pt.
Also,  it seemed to create a text frame on each page for the contents.

Bodvar





On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM, Peter Gold 
wrote:

> This reminds me of a story I heard back when edlin, an early text editor
> had been left in the dust by newer tools. Allegedly, an engineer wrote a
> 60-page document using edlin, since it was the only tool he knew then. It
> just proves that stick-to-it-ness has some value.
>
> As to one-word-per-line, hmmm… Some English-centric folks think that
> "foreign" languages have too many long words anyway.
>
> Seriously, is there any clue to the problem? You mentioned Word->PDF. What
> tool(s) were used to create the PDF? What was the source document's
> creator? A font issue, perhaps?
>
> Just curious.
>
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson 
> wrote:
>
> > I just tried to save a 200 page pdf to Word in Acrobat X Pro and almost
> all
> > word spaces disappeared (10pt/14 Esprit font), so I had just one very
> long
> > word for each line, more or less. Saving to rtf worked fine and I was
> able
> > to spellcheck my Icelandic (not supported by FM yet) document in
> > LibreOffice Writer, which, BTW, uses HunSpell, same as Adobe!
> >
> > Just my dime.
> > Brgds,
> > Bodvar Bjorgvinsson
> >
> >
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Peter Gold]

This reminds me of a story I heard back when edlin, an early text editor
had been left in the dust by newer tools. Allegedly, an engineer wrote a
60-page document using edlin, since it was the only tool he knew then. It
just proves that stick-to-it-ness has some value.

As to one-word-per-line, hmmm… Some English-centric folks think that
"foreign" languages have too many long words anyway.

Seriously, is there any clue to the problem? You mentioned Word->PDF. What
tool(s) were used to create the PDF? What was the source document's
creator? A font issue, perhaps?

Just curious.

On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Böðvar Björgvinsson 
wrote:

> I just tried to save a 200 page pdf to Word in Acrobat X Pro and almost all
> word spaces disappeared (10pt/14 Esprit font), so I had just one very long
> word for each line, more or less. Saving to rtf worked fine and I was able
> to spellcheck my Icelandic (not supported by FM yet) document in
> LibreOffice Writer, which, BTW, uses HunSpell, same as Adobe!
>
> Just my dime.
> Brgds,
> Bodvar Bjorgvinsson
>
>
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Böðvar Björgvinsson]

I just tried to save a 200 page pdf to Word in Acrobat X Pro and almost all
word spaces disappeared (10pt/14 Esprit font), so I had just one very long
word for each line, more or less. Saving to rtf worked fine and I was able
to spellcheck my Icelandic (not supported by FM yet) document in
LibreOffice Writer, which, BTW, uses HunSpell, same as Adobe!

Just my dime.
Brgds,
Bodvar Bjorgvinsson





On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 11:57 PM, Jeff C  wrote:

> PDF to Word works, mostly.
>
> I was surprised the conversion of a 57MB PDF file successfully converted to
> Word.
>
> Graphics get scrambled however, so give a warning.
>
> I have a few SMEs who want a Word version to mark up. Ugh.
> I get comments about how bad the graphics are all the time...
>
> Jeff
> ++
> Major limitation, you can't save a whole book to RTF, only an individual
> .fm file.
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Jeff C]

PDF to Word works, mostly.

I was surprised the conversion of a 57MB PDF file successfully converted to
Word.

Graphics get scrambled however, so give a warning.

I have a few SMEs who want a Word version to mark up. Ugh.
I get comments about how bad the graphics are all the time...

Jeff
++
Major limitation, you can't save a whole book to RTF, only an individual
.fm file.
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Robert Lauriston]

Major limitation, you can't save a whole book to RTF, only an
individual .fm file.
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Carrie Baker]

Sometimes people ask for Word so they can give comments.


But this would not be to convert files, just to get comments

I

בתאריך יום ב׳, 16 באפר׳ 2018, 18:09, מאת Robert Lauriston ‏<
rob...@lauriston.com>:

> FrameMaker by itself can't export to Word. You might get better Word
> output by linking a FrameMaker project to RoboHelp than by saving as
> PDF and then saving as Word from Acrobat.
>
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Carrie Baker  wrote:
> > Thanks.
> > So you cannot enable the pdf for commenting without the full suite?
> > And how about export to Word from PDF, do you get that from the subset?
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Art Campbell]

Get the full version of Acrobat too.

TCS is the best way to go. Includes both and other tools that may be
useful, but which you don't know you need yet because it's a new gig.


Art Campbell
  art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358


On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:59 AM, Carrie Baker  wrote:

> Hi
> I moved to a new job and they want to buy Frame for me.
>
> How exciting!
>
> I wanted to ask.  Do I need to buy Acrobat too?
> Or us Frame enough?
> To make pdf files,  and also to fix the page they open to etc.
> Thanks!
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Harding, Dan]

Depending on the content in question, I do NOT recommend this workflow. You 
will lose any embedded index markers and other cross references that get 
preserved if you simply "Save As" RTF.

For all intents and purposes, RTF = Word.

Dan

-Original Message-
From: Framers <framers-bounces+dharding=illinois@lists.frameusers.com> On 
Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:09 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
<framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

FrameMaker by itself can't export to Word. You might get better Word output by 
linking a FrameMaker project to RoboHelp than by saving as PDF and then saving 
as Word from Acrobat.

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Carrie Baker <carrie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks.
> So you cannot enable the pdf for commenting without the full suite?
> And how about export to Word from PDF, do you get that from the subset?
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Johan Anglemark]

FrameMaker can save as RTF, which can be opened in Word and saved as 
Word. Close enough.


-j

On 2018-04-16 17:09, Robert Lauriston wrote:

FrameMaker by itself can't export to Word. You might get better Word
output by linking a FrameMaker project to RoboHelp than by saving as
PDF and then saving as Word from Acrobat.

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Carrie Baker  wrote:

Thanks.
So you cannot enable the pdf for commenting without the full suite?
And how about export to Word from PDF, do you get that from the subset?

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--
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Robert Lauriston]

FrameMaker by itself can't export to Word. You might get better Word
output by linking a FrameMaker project to RoboHelp than by saving as
PDF and then saving as Word from Acrobat.

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Carrie Baker  wrote:
> Thanks.
> So you cannot enable the pdf for commenting without the full suite?
> And how about export to Word from PDF, do you get that from the subset?
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Carrie Baker]

Thanks.
So you cannot enable the pdf for commenting without the full suite?
And how about export to Word from PDF, do you get that from the subset?
In my previous position I had the full suite, so that is why I am asking

בתאריך יום ב׳, 16 באפר׳ 2018, 17:49, מאת Robert Lauriston ‏<
rob...@lauriston.com>:

> FrameMaker, which includes a subset of Acrobat and RoboHelp features,
> is $1000. The PDF settings let you specify the start page:
>
>
> https://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/2017/using/using-framemaker-2017/frm_generating_output/Configure_PDF_settings-.htm
>
> For $1700, you can get Adobe Technical Communications Suite, which
> adds full Acrobat Pro, full RoboHelp, and Captivate. One useful
> addition to FrameMaker in TCS is a "Save as review PDF" command, which
> generates a comment-enabled PDF.
>
> Or you could subscribe to Adobe Creative Suite, which includes Acrobat
> Pro as well as PhotoShop and Illustrator, which might be more useful
> than the TCS apps.
>
> Hard to say which is the best choice without knowing your exact
> requirements.
>
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 5:59 AM, Carrie Baker  wrote:
> > I moved to a new job and they want to buy Frame for me.
> >
> > I wanted to ask.  Do I need to buy Acrobat too?
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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Robert Lauriston]

FrameMaker, which includes a subset of Acrobat and RoboHelp features,
is $1000. The PDF settings let you specify the start page:

https://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/2017/using/using-framemaker-2017/frm_generating_output/Configure_PDF_settings-.htm

For $1700, you can get Adobe Technical Communications Suite, which
adds full Acrobat Pro, full RoboHelp, and Captivate. One useful
addition to FrameMaker in TCS is a "Save as review PDF" command, which
generates a comment-enabled PDF.

Or you could subscribe to Adobe Creative Suite, which includes Acrobat
Pro as well as PhotoShop and Illustrator, which might be more useful
than the TCS apps.

Hard to say which is the best choice without knowing your exact requirements.

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 5:59 AM, Carrie Baker  wrote:
> I moved to a new job and they want to buy Frame for me.
>
> I wanted to ask.  Do I need to buy Acrobat too?
___

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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Jeff Coatsworth]

FM right out of the box includes a version of Acrobat that's commonly called 
"headless" - you don't get the full functionality of Acrobat exposed & I 
believe you can't send jobs to PDF from any other applications either. 
Generally, you want the full Acrobat Pro version.

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
<framers-bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub@lists.frameusers.com> On Behalf 
Of Carrie Baker
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 8:59 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

Hi
I moved to a new job and they want to buy Frame for me.

How exciting!

I wanted to ask.  Do I need to buy Acrobat too?
Or us Frame enough?
To make pdf files,  and also to fix the page they open to etc.
Thanks!
___

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Re: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[john . x . posada]

Depends on what your output from Frame is. If it is PDF printed docs, then yes, 
get Acrobat.

OTOH, if your output is something else, get whatever you need to polish/adjust 
that output.

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+john.x.posada=us.hsbc@lists.frameusers.com] On 
Behalf Of Carrie Baker
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 8:59 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: [Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

Hi
I moved to a new job and they want to buy Frame for me.

How exciting!

I wanted to ask.  Do I need to buy Acrobat too?
Or us Frame enough?
To make pdf files,  and also to fix the page they open to etc.
Thanks!
___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at  
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[Framers] Frame alone or Adobe too?

[Carrie Baker]

Hi
I moved to a new job and they want to buy Frame for me.

How exciting!

I wanted to ask.  Do I need to buy Acrobat too?
Or us Frame enough?
To make pdf files,  and also to fix the page they open to etc.
Thanks!
___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
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