Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Keith Arnett]

This is a bit off-topic, but for what it is worth, I just finished my own
evaluation of OpenOffice.org Writer. While it has a number of
FrameMaker-like features, it is in no position to pose as serious
competition to FrameMaker - unless you:

 

-  Can't afford FrameMaker (OOo Writer is free)

-  Publish mostly to PDF (it has a very good PDF generator built in)

-  Are willing to design a whole new set of doc templates

-  Are prepared to contend with the usual gotchas inherent with
open-source software

 

It does save to the XML-based OpenDocument format (as well as a number of
other format, including Word), so if you can find some third-party tools to
work with that, you might be able to look at generating various help formats
(I never got that far).

 

It is very impressive in many ways, though, and I would encourage anyone
with interest to download it and play around with it. It really is
positioned to compete with MS Word more than FrameMaker. Some of the
features are pretty neat, and some are a bit wobbly. The Find and Replace is
totally geeky. The online help is commendable for an open-source product,
but still leaves a lot to be desired.

 

Here are some helpful links:

 

http://www.openoffice.org/ http://www.openoffice.org/ 

 

http://www.techsoup.org/learningcenter/software/page4765.cfm
http://www.techsoup.org/learningcenter/software/page4765.cfm 

 

http://documentation.openoffice.org/HOW_TO/word_processing/writer1_EN.pdf
http://documentation.openoffice.org/HOW_TO/word_processing/writer1_EN.pdf 

 

http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/office-suites/openoffice/1026626/
http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/office-suites/openoffice/1026626/ 

 

http://software.newsforge.com/software/05/06/14/2137222.shtml?tid=152
http://software.newsforge.com/software/05/06/14/2137222.shtml?tid=152tid=9
3 tid=93

 

It is at version 2.1 presently, and in my opinion, still has enough rough
edges to say it's not ready for prime time. I would expect that when it hits
version 3 or 4, it should be a pretty interesting alternative. And who
knows, maybe by then the OpenDocument format will have gotten some
traction...

 

Regards,

 

Keith

 



Keith Arnett

Senior Technical Writer

webMethods, Inc.\ Fairfax VA

703-460-5927

Mobile: 540-671-1954

 

 Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an 

 article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called Old Software. 

 They underlined a paragraph which says, also absent from this 

 discussion is Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and 

 lack of recent development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org
Writer.

 

 Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates 

 that Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ 

 page manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know 

 nothing about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no 

 desire to replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need 

 some knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.

 

 Thank very much in advance!

 

 Becky Frasure

 

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Replacing Framemaker

[Keith Arnett]

This is a bit off-topic, but for what it is worth, I just finished my own
evaluation of OpenOffice.org Writer. While it has a number of
FrameMaker-like features, it is in no position to pose as serious
competition to FrameMaker - unless you:



-  Can't afford FrameMaker (OOo Writer is free)

-  Publish mostly to PDF (it has a very good PDF generator built in)

-  Are willing to design a whole new set of doc templates

-  Are prepared to contend with the usual "gotchas" inherent with
open-source software



It does save to the XML-based OpenDocument format (as well as a number of
other format, including Word), so if you can find some third-party tools to
work with that, you might be able to look at generating various help formats
(I never got that far).



It is very impressive in many ways, though, and I would encourage anyone
with interest to download it and play around with it. It really is
positioned to compete with MS Word more than FrameMaker. Some of the
features are pretty neat, and some are a bit wobbly. The Find and Replace is
totally geeky. The online help is commendable for an open-source product,
but still leaves a lot to be desired.



Here are some helpful links:



http://www.openoffice.org/  



http://www.techsoup.org/learningcenter/software/page4765.cfm
 



http://documentation.openoffice.org/HOW_TO/word_processing/writer1_EN.pdf
 



http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/office-suites/openoffice/1026626/
 



http://software.newsforge.com/software/05/06/14/2137222.shtml?tid=152
 =93



It is at version 2.1 presently, and in my opinion, still has enough rough
edges to say it's not ready for prime time. I would expect that when it hits
version 3 or 4, it should be a pretty interesting alternative. And who
knows, maybe by then the OpenDocument format will have gotten some
traction...



Regards,



Keith





Keith Arnett

Senior Technical Writer

webMethods, Inc.\ Fairfax VA

703-460-5927

Mobile: 540-671-1954



> Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an 

> article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software." 

> They underlined a paragraph which says, "also absent from this 

> discussion is Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and 

> lack of recent development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org
Writer."

> 

> Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates 

> that Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ 

> page manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know 

> nothing about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no 

> desire to replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need 

> some knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.

> 

> Thank very much in advance!

> 

> Becky Frasure

Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Becky,

I am as bullish on FrameMaker as anyone, but it is not inaccurate to say the 
FrameMaker is starting to show its age. As for lack of recent 
development, there have been few noteworthy improvements in unstructured 
FrameMaker since version 6 improved the book window. As Frame users, we know 
that there has been a lot of action in the structured Frame arena, but to an 
outsider looking in, the quoted statement seems quite reasonable.


Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com



Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an
article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called Old Software. They
underlined a paragraph which says, also absent from this discussion is
Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent
development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer.

Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates that
Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ page
manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know nothing
about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to
replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.

Thank very much in advance!

Becky Frasure


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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Art Campbell]

Rick,
The statement was made in 2004... not that the timing changes things a
lot, but FM is looking more viable from 2007 than it did back then. I
think. ;- )

Art

On 2/5/07, Rick Quatro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Becky,

I am as bullish on FrameMaker as anyone, but it is not inaccurate to say the
FrameMaker is starting to show its age. As for lack of recent
development, there have been few noteworthy improvements in unstructured
FrameMaker since version 6 improved the book window. As Frame users, we know
that there has been a lot of action in the structured Frame arena, but to an
outsider looking in, the quoted statement seems quite reasonable.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com


 Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an
 article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called Old Software. They
 underlined a paragraph which says, also absent from this discussion is
 Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent
 development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer.

 Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates that
 Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ page
 manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know nothing
 about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to
 replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
 knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.

 Thank very much in advance!

 Becky Frasure

___


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Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
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--
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
  and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
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Replacing Framemaker

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Becky,

I am as bullish on FrameMaker as anyone, but it is not inaccurate to say the 
FrameMaker "is starting to show its age." As for "lack of recent 
development," there have been few noteworthy improvements in unstructured 
FrameMaker since version 6 improved the book window. As Frame users, we know 
that there has been a lot of action in the structured Frame arena, but to an 
outsider looking in, the quoted statement seems quite reasonable.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com


> Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an
> article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software." They
> underlined a paragraph which says, "also absent from this discussion is
> Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent
> development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."
>
> Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates that
> Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ page
> manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know nothing
> about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to
> replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
> knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.
>
> Thank very much in advance!
>
> Becky Frasure

Replacing Framemaker

[Art Campbell]

Rick,
The statement was made in 2004... not that the timing changes things a
lot, but FM is looking more viable from 2007 than it did back then. I
think. ;- )

Art

On 2/5/07, Rick Quatro  wrote:
> Hi Becky,
>
> I am as bullish on FrameMaker as anyone, but it is not inaccurate to say the
> FrameMaker "is starting to show its age." As for "lack of recent
> development," there have been few noteworthy improvements in unstructured
> FrameMaker since version 6 improved the book window. As Frame users, we know
> that there has been a lot of action in the structured Frame arena, but to an
> outsider looking in, the quoted statement seems quite reasonable.
>
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing
> 585-659-8267
> www.frameexpert.com
>
>
> > Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an
> > article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software." They
> > underlined a paragraph which says, "also absent from this discussion is
> > Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent
> > development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."
> >
> > Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates that
> > Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ page
> > manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know nothing
> > about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to
> > replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
> > knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.
> >
> > Thank very much in advance!
> >
> > Becky Frasure
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
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> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>


-- 
Art Campbell art.campbell at 
gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
   and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358

Replacing Framemaker

[Peter Gold]

IMO, the real deal maker/breakers go something like:

* What do you need to do now, and perhaps going forward, that FrameMaker 
can't do now, that some other product does?
* What do you need to do now, and perhaps going forward, that FrameMaker 
can do now, but some other product does better?
* Is the real total cost of migrating from FrameMaker to some other 
product worth the advantage(s) that it provides?
* Is there value in retaining FrameMaker in your workflow as you 
incorporate some other product for its advantages?

HTH

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Art Campbell wrote:
> Rick,
> The statement was made in 2004... not that the timing changes things a
> lot, but FM is looking more viable from 2007 than it did back then. I
> think. ;- )
>
> Art
>
> On 2/5/07, Rick Quatro  wrote:
>> Hi Becky,
>>
>> I am as bullish on FrameMaker as anyone, but it is not inaccurate to 
>> say the
>> FrameMaker "is starting to show its age." As for "lack of recent
>> development," there have been few noteworthy improvements in 
>> unstructured
>> FrameMaker since version 6 improved the book window. As Frame users, 
>> we know
>> that there has been a lot of action in the structured Frame arena, 
>> but to an
>> outsider looking in, the quoted statement seems quite reasonable.
>>
>> Rick Quatro
>> Carmen Publishing
>> 585-659-8267
>> www.frameexpert.com
>>

Replacing Framemaker

[Alan Litchfield]

Rebecca,

On 2/02/2007, at 12:39 AM, Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov wrote:

> Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me)


> I am always arguing with my officemates that
> Framemaker is the best software for what we do,


> but I need some
> knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.
>

Hmm,  take a deep breath and count to 10 :)

I would say that they left the bait and you bit it.

If you must, send some of the great information that has been  
supplied to the magazine publishers in a letter to the editor, or if  
they have online version, respond to that.

Cheers
Alan

Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Steve Rickaby]

At 06:39 -0500 1/2/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an article 
from the January STC Magazine Intercom called Old Software. They underlined 
a paragraph which says, also absent from this discussion is Adobe Framemaker, 
which is starting to show its age and lack of recent development. Fans may 
want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer.

Writer appears to be more of a potential replacement for Word than for 
applications like FrameMaker.

There's a detailed comparison here:

http://software.newsforge.com/software/05/06/14/2137222.shtml?tid=152tid=93

And of course, Writer does not support structure.

As for 'starting to show its age and lack of recent development', followers of 
this group already know that this is not true.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Yves Barbion]

I wouldn't call this lack of recent development:

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/framemaker_ap/

Definitely something worth considering if you plan on going structured.



--
Yves Barbion
Documentation Architect
Adobe-Certified FrameMaker Instructor




On 2/1/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an
article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called Old Software. They
underlined a paragraph which says, also absent from this discussion is
Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent
development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer.

Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates that
Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ page
manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know nothing
about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to
replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.

Thank very much in advance!

Becky Frasure


___


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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Bodvar Bjorgvinsson]

Very good reference indeed. IMHO, the main drawback of OOo vs M$Word
is that it tries too much to imitate the latter.

I use OOo a lot, but i find it much harder to work with than
FrameMaker. It seems to default to arbitrary formatting rather than
paragraph and character formatting tags, which it has. Like M$W, OOo
does too much guessing on what you are going to to regarding numbering
etc.

Bodvar


On 2/1/07, Steve Rickaby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

At 06:39 -0500 1/2/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an article from the January STC 
Magazine Intercom called Old Software. They underlined a paragraph which says, also 
absent from this discussion is Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent 
development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer.

Writer appears to be more of a potential replacement for Word than for 
applications like FrameMaker.

There's a detailed comparison here:

http://software.newsforge.com/software/05/06/14/2137222.shtml?tid=152tid=93

And of course, Writer does not support structure.

As for 'starting to show its age and lack of recent development', followers of 
this group already know that this is not true.

--
Steve
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RE: Replacing Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

On behalf of Adobe and without getting into details (sorry),
let me assure you that the next version of FrameMaker is 
under active development.

- Dov


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:39 AM
 To:   framers@frameusers.com
 Subject: Replacing Framemaker
 
 Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out 
 me), an article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called 
 Old Software. They underlined a paragraph which says, also 
 absent from this discussion is Adobe Framemaker, which is 
 starting to show its age and lack of recent development. Fans 
 may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer.
 
 Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my 
 officemates that Framemaker is the best software for what we 
 do, which are 700+ page manuals, with multiple updates and 
 constant repagination. I know nothing about OpenOffice.org 
 Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to replace, I'm 
 getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some 
 knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.
 
 Thank very much in advance!
 
 Becky Frasure
___


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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Joe Malin]

I usually ignore what the STC says.

What part of usda is aphis? My mom used to work for arserrc.

JOe

Yves Barbion wrote:

I wouldn't call this lack of recent development:

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/framemaker_ap/

Definitely something worth considering if you plan on going structured.





--


*Joe Malin*

[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Art Campbell]

One detail, please?
Here, or still in exile in India?

Art

On 2/1/07, Dov Isaacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On behalf of Adobe and without getting into details (sorry),
let me assure you that the next version of FrameMaker is
under active development.

- Dov


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:39 AM
 To:   framers@frameusers.com
 Subject: Replacing Framemaker

 Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out
 me), an article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called
 Old Software. They underlined a paragraph which says, also
 absent from this discussion is Adobe Framemaker, which is
 starting to show its age and lack of recent development. Fans
 may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer.

 Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my
 officemates that Framemaker is the best software for what we
 do, which are 700+ page manuals, with multiple updates and
 constant repagination. I know nothing about OpenOffice.org
 Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to replace, I'm
 getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
 knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.

 Thank very much in advance!

 Becky Frasure
___


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--
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
  and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
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RE: Replacing Framemaker

[Combs, Richard]

Art Campbell wrote: 
 
 One detail, please?
 Here, or still in exile in India?

Why does that matter? 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--




 
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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Stuart Rogers]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I know nothing
about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? 


It's very much like MS Word, in the way it is cumbersome and unintuitive 
and at least a little bit unstable.


I have used it to edit a document created by someone else. The first 
thing that went wrong was... the Numbering! Mucking about with some 
numbered paragraphs crashed the program and lost my work. I have also 
been trying to apply a figure numbering style that includes chapnum, and 
find that OOo keeps dropping the hyphen from the style definition. The 
dialog boxes are like Word, in that you have to drill down a million 
levels to set options. The on-line Help is reference oriented, not task 
oriented, so you're left guessing at what features exist by what names 
that will do what you want.


In short, it's been every bit as irritating and frustrating as Word, and 
I wouldn't use it for anything more than memos and very short reports 
(which is what I use Word for).


regards,

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

Developers explain How the Product Works.
Technical writers explain How to Work the Product.


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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Bill Briggs]

At 12:43 PM + 2/1/07, Steve Rickaby wrote:
I sometimes think I'd dearly like to see a head-to-head challenge between a 
competent FrameMaker user and a competent Word user (or 'FrameMaker 
'alternative of your choice' user) to perform a series of standard operations 
we take for granted in FrameMaker. Such a test could involve creating a 
template with a dozen styles, expanding that into a book, top and tailing the 
book, indexing a few paragraphs, making all the table styles consistent, and 
so on... against the clock.

 I did this exact thing at Macworld a few years ago. It was the desktop pub 
shootout, or some such title. There was a Quark expert, an ID expert, and me 
driving FrameMaker. We took turns doing things that showed the application's 
stuff and challenged the others to match it. MS Word wasn't even invited to 
the shootout as it wasn't considered a contender.

 All things considered, FrameMaker held its ground against the others. It 
couldn't match the typography of ID, and was not as graceful at doing magazine 
style layout with lots of graphics, but it kicked some butt in the area where 
we all know it shines, like number streams, cross references, conditional text, 
etc.

 There was no clear winner. It came down to choosing the right tool for the 
job. Of course ID and Quark were fighting for supremacy in the same DTP space. 
FrameMaker has a feature set that focuses on other things. But it held its own.

 My most vivid memory of the shootout was the audible gasp from Jay (who was 
driving Quark) when, with a couple of keystrokes, I imported an image into a 
table cell. Apparently that wasn't easy to do in Quark at that time.

 But then we all know the virtues of FrameMaker.

- web
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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Daniel Emory]

The publication by the STC of this article
demonstrates the declining relevance of that
organization.


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Re: Replacing Framemaker

[Art Campbell]

At the risk of injecting more accurate facts into this thread and
disabusing Dan's low opinion of STC (why yes, I am a senior member)


* Becky Frasure's original assertion that the article was published
in the January issue of STC Intercom is inaccurate. What was published
there was an article on or Open-Source Tools for Technical
Communicators, Part II: Interoperability
(http://www.stc.org/intercom/PDFs/2007/200701_8-11.pdf) that contains
a link to ...

* http://www.techwr-l.com/techwhirl/, the commercial TechWriter
mailing list site owned and operated by the same people that publish
this FM mailing list, which published an article in its online
magazine titled Replacing FrameMaker with OpenOffice.org Writer
(http://www.techwr-l.com/techwhirl/magazine/technical/replaceframewithwriter.html)

* The author of that article, Bruce Byfield, describes himself: I am
a computer journalist, primarily for the Open Source Technology Group
(OSTG) so we might assume at the outset that he may be a bit biased
in his reporting because he's comparing an open program with a
commercial competitor He concludes: However, so long as they take
the time to learn Writer, they can be in little doubt that they are
using software that competes with FrameMaker on its own terms, and
wins as often it loses. Even ignoring the cost and philosophical
differences, OpenOffice.org is clearly an acceptable alternative to
FrameMaker.

He does, however, present some interesting conclusions. Some of which
I'd disagree with, but there ya go.

Byfield's own site is at http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

Cheers,
Art

On 2/1/07, Daniel Emory [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The publication by the STC of this article
demonstrates the declining relevance of that
organization.


___



--
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
  and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
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Replacing Framemaker

[Steve Rickaby]

At 06:39 -0500 1/2/07, Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov wrote:

>Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an article 
>from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software." They underlined 
>a paragraph which says, "also absent from this discussion is Adobe Framemaker, 
>which is starting to show its age and lack of recent development. Fans may 
>want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."

Writer appears to be more of a potential replacement for Word than for 
applications like FrameMaker.

There's a detailed comparison here:



And of course, Writer does not support structure.

As for 'starting to show its age and lack of recent development', followers of 
this group already know that this is not true.

-- 
Steve

Replacing Framemaker

[Yves Barbion]

I wouldn't call this "lack of recent development":

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/framemaker_ap/

Definitely something worth considering if you plan on going structured.



-- 
Yves Barbion
Documentation Architect
Adobe-Certified FrameMaker Instructor




On 2/1/07, Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov <
Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov> wrote:
>
> Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an
> article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software." They
> underlined a paragraph which says, "also absent from this discussion is
> Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent
> development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."
>
> Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates that
> Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ page
> manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know nothing
> about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to
> replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
> knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.
>
> Thank very much in advance!
>
> Becky Frasure
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as yves.barbion at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
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>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>

Replacing Framemaker

[Bodvar Bjorgvinsson]

Very good reference indeed. IMHO, the main drawback of OOo vs M$Word
is that it tries too much to imitate the latter.

I use OOo a lot, but i find it much harder to work with than
FrameMaker. It seems to default to arbitrary formatting rather than
paragraph and character formatting tags, which it has. Like M$W, OOo
does too much guessing on what you are going to to regarding numbering
etc.

Bodvar


On 2/1/07, Steve Rickaby  wrote:
> At 06:39 -0500 1/2/07, Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov wrote:
>
> >Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an article 
> >from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software." They 
> >underlined a paragraph which says, "also absent from this discussion is 
> >Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent 
> >development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."
>
> Writer appears to be more of a potential replacement for Word than for 
> applications like FrameMaker.
>
> There's a detailed comparison here:
>
> 
>
> And of course, Writer does not support structure.
>
> As for 'starting to show its age and lack of recent development', followers 
> of this group already know that this is not true.
>
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as bodvar at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
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>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>

Replacing Framemaker

[Yves Barbion]

And this might help as well:

http://www.adobe.com/products/special/crossproduct/tech_communication/faq.html#item-1-2




-- 
Yves Barbion
Documentation Architect
Adobe-Certified FrameMaker Instructor



On 2/1/07, Yves Barbion  wrote:
>
> I wouldn't call this "lack of recent development":
>
> http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/framemaker_ap/
>
> Definitely something worth considering if you plan on going structured.
>
>
>
> --
> Yves Barbion
> Documentation Architect
> Adobe-Certified FrameMaker Instructor
> 
>
>
>
> On 2/1/07, Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov  aphis.usda.gov>
> wrote:
> >
> > Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an
> > article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software."
> > They
> > underlined a paragraph which says, "also absent from this discussion is
> > Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent
> > development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."
> >
> > Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates that
> > Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ page
> > manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know nothing
> >
> > about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to
> > replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
> > knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.
> >
> > Thank very much in advance!
> >
> > Becky Frasure
> >
> >
> > ___
> >
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to Framers as yves.barbion at gmail.com.
> >
> > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
> >
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> > or visit
> > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/yves.barbion%40gmail.com
> >
> > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
> >
>
>
>
>

Replacing Framemaker

[Steve Rickaby]

Rebecca

>Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an article 
>from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software." They underlined 
>a paragraph which says, "also absent from this discussion is Adobe Framemaker, 
>which is starting to show its age and lack of recent development. Fans may 
>want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."

Just an afterthought... Too often folks who criticize FrameMaker like this have 
no real, or deep, knowledge of the application or what it can do. The writer of 
that article should be made to justify their words.

I sometimes think I'd dearly like to see a head-to-head challenge between a 
competent FrameMaker user and a competent Word user (or 'FrameMaker 
'alternative of your choice' user) to perform a series of standard operations 
we take for granted in FrameMaker. Such a test could involve creating a 
template with a dozen styles, expanding that into a book, top and tailing the 
book, indexing a few paragraphs, making all the table styles consistent, and so 
on... against the clock.

The results would be interesting, to say the least. And the demonstration of 
FrameMaker's ability to do ordinary things faster, and out-of-the-ordinary 
things *at all*, would maybe sell a load more site licenses to middle 
management.

By the way, someone on the 'FrameMaker for OS X' group might have messed with 
Writer, if you want to post there for real-world experiences.

-- 
Steve

Replacing Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

On behalf of Adobe and without getting into details (sorry),
let me assure you that the next version of FrameMaker is 
under active development.

- Dov


> -Original Message-
> From: Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:39 AM
> To:   framers at frameusers.com
> Subject: Replacing Framemaker
> 
> Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out 
> me), an article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called 
> "Old Software." They underlined a paragraph which says, "also 
> absent from this discussion is Adobe Framemaker, which is 
> starting to show its age and lack of recent development. Fans 
> may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."
> 
> Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my 
> officemates that Framemaker is the best software for what we 
> do, which are 700+ page manuals, with multiple updates and 
> constant repagination. I know nothing about OpenOffice.org 
> Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to replace, I'm 
> getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some 
> knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.
> 
> Thank very much in advance!
> 
> Becky Frasure

Replacing Framemaker

[Joe Malin]

I usually ignore what the STC says.

What part of usda is aphis? My mom used to work for arserrc.

JOe

Yves Barbion wrote:
> I wouldn't call this "lack of recent development":
>
> http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/framemaker_ap/
>
> Definitely something worth considering if you plan on going structured.
>
>
>

-- 


*Joe Malin*

jmalin at jmalin.com 

Replacing Framemaker

[Art Campbell]

One detail, please?
Here, or still in exile in India?

Art

On 2/1/07, Dov Isaacs  wrote:
> On behalf of Adobe and without getting into details (sorry),
> let me assure you that the next version of FrameMaker is
> under active development.
>
> - Dov
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov
> > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:39 AM
> > To:   framers at frameusers.com
> > Subject: Replacing Framemaker
> >
> > Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out
> > me), an article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called
> > "Old Software." They underlined a paragraph which says, "also
> > absent from this discussion is Adobe Framemaker, which is
> > starting to show its age and lack of recent development. Fans
> > may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."
> >
> > Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my
> > officemates that Framemaker is the best software for what we
> > do, which are 700+ page manuals, with multiple updates and
> > constant repagination. I know nothing about OpenOffice.org
> > Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to replace, I'm
> > getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some
> > knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.
> >
> > Thank very much in advance!
> >
> > Becky Frasure
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>


-- 
Art Campbell art.campbell at 
gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
   and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358

Replacing Framemaker

[Combs, Richard]

Art Campbell wrote: 

> One detail, please?
> Here, or still in exile in India?

Why does that matter? 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Replacing Framemaker

[Stuart Rogers]

Rebecca.L.Frasure at aphis.usda.gov wrote:
  I know nothing
> about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? 

It's very much like MS Word, in the way it is cumbersome and unintuitive 
and at least a little bit unstable.

I have used it to edit a document created by someone else. The first 
thing that went wrong was... the Numbering! Mucking about with some 
numbered paragraphs crashed the program and lost my work. I have also 
been trying to apply a figure numbering style that includes chapnum, and 
find that OOo keeps dropping the hyphen from the style definition. The 
dialog boxes are like Word, in that you have to drill down a million 
levels to set options. The on-line Help is reference oriented, not task 
oriented, so you're left guessing at what features exist by what names 
that will do what you want.

In short, it's been every bit as irritating and frustrating as Word, and 
I wouldn't use it for anything more than memos and very short reports 
(which is what I use Word for).

regards,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

"Developers explain How the Product Works.
Technical writers explain How to Work the Product."


Get Firefox!
http://tinyurl.com/8q9c5

Replacing Framemaker

[Stuart Rogers]

Steve Rickaby wrote:
> I sometimes think I'd dearly like to see a head-to-head challenge
> between a competent FrameMaker user and a competent Word user (or
> 'FrameMaker 'alternative of your choice' user) to perform a series of
> standard operations we take for granted in FrameMaker. Such a test
> could involve creating a template with a dozen styles, expanding that
> into a book, top and tailing the book, indexing a few paragraphs,
> making all the table styles consistent, and so on... against the
> clock.

For an outline of just such a test (and a lovely laugh as you imagine 
the progress of each individual), see
http://www.techknowledgecorp.com/demo.html

cheers,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

"Developers explain How the Product Works.
Technical writers explain How to Work the Product."


Get Firefox!
http://tinyurl.com/8q9c5

Replacing Framemaker

[Bill Briggs]

At 12:43 PM + 2/1/07, Steve Rickaby wrote:
>I sometimes think I'd dearly like to see a head-to-head challenge between a 
>competent FrameMaker user and a competent Word user (or 'FrameMaker 
>'alternative of your choice' user) to perform a series of standard operations 
>we take for granted in FrameMaker. Such a test could involve creating a 
>template with a dozen styles, expanding that into a book, top and tailing the 
>book, indexing a few paragraphs, making all the table styles consistent, and 
>so on... against the clock.

 I did this exact thing at Macworld a few years ago. It was the desktop pub 
shootout, or some such title. There was a Quark expert, an ID expert, and me 
driving FrameMaker. We took turns doing things that showed the application's 
"stuff" and challenged the others to match it. MS Word wasn't even invited to 
the shootout as it wasn't considered a contender.

 All things considered, FrameMaker held its ground against the others. It 
couldn't match the typography of ID, and was not as graceful at doing magazine 
style layout with lots of graphics, but it kicked some butt in the area where 
we all know it shines, like number streams, cross references, conditional text, 
etc.

 There was no clear winner. It came down to choosing the right tool for the 
job. Of course ID and Quark were fighting for supremacy in the same DTP space. 
FrameMaker has a feature set that focuses on other things. But it held its own.

 My most vivid memory of the shootout was the audible gasp from Jay (who was 
driving Quark) when, with a couple of keystrokes, I imported an image into a 
table cell. Apparently that wasn't easy to do in Quark at that time.

 But then we all know the virtues of FrameMaker.

- web

Replacing Framemaker

[Daniel Emory]

The publication by the STC of this article
demonstrates the declining relevance of that
organization.

Replacing Framemaker

[Art Campbell]

At the risk of injecting more accurate facts into this thread and
disabusing Dan's low opinion of STC (why yes, I am a senior member)


 * Becky Frasure's original assertion that the article was published
in the January issue of STC Intercom is inaccurate. What was published
there was an article on "or Open-Source Tools for Technical
Communicators, Part II: Interoperability"
(http://www.stc.org/intercom/PDFs/2007/200701_8-11.pdf) that contains
a link to ...

* http://www.techwr-l.com/techwhirl/, the commercial TechWriter
mailing list site owned and operated by the same people that publish
this FM mailing list, which published an article in its online
magazine titled "Replacing FrameMaker with OpenOffice.org Writer"
(http://www.techwr-l.com/techwhirl/magazine/technical/replaceframewithwriter.html)

 * The author of that article, Bruce Byfield, describes himself: "I am
a computer journalist, primarily for the Open Source Technology Group
(OSTG)" so we might assume at the outset that he may be a bit biased
in his reporting because he's comparing an "open" program with a
commercial competitor He concludes: "However, so long as they take
the time to learn Writer, they can be in little doubt that they are
using software that competes with FrameMaker on its own terms, and
wins as often it loses. Even ignoring the cost and philosophical
differences, OpenOffice.org is clearly an acceptable alternative to
FrameMaker."

He does, however, present some interesting conclusions. Some of which
I'd disagree with, but there ya go.

Byfield's own site is at http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/

Cheers,
Art

On 2/1/07, Daniel Emory  wrote:
> The publication by the STC of this article
> demonstrates the declining relevance of that
> organization.
> 
>
> ___


-- 
Art Campbell art.campbell at 
gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
   and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358

Replacing Framemaker

[rebecca.l.fras...@aphis.usda.gov]

Someone left on my desk (presumably to irritate the heck out me), an 
article from the January STC Magazine Intercom called "Old Software." They 
underlined a paragraph which says, "also absent from this discussion is 
Adobe Framemaker, which is starting to show its age and lack of recent 
development. Fans may want to consider using OpenOffice.org Writer."

Now that's not true, is it? I am always arguing with my officemates that 
Framemaker is the best software for what we do, which are 700+ page 
manuals, with multiple updates and constant repagination. I know nothing 
about OpenOffice.org Writer. Does anyone else? I have no desire to 
replace, I'm getting ready to learn Structured, but I need some 
knowlegable words from my fellow listmates.

Thank very much in advance!

Becky Frasure