Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-27 Thread Nicholas Kovats 
Amazing!

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Pip Chodorov  wrote:
> Henri Chomette did some of that in 1925 although he used train tunnels - not
> sure if headlights were bright then (see around the two-minute mark and
> around 5:40 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcQdU94mJs4).
>
> There are also some bits in Man Ray's Retour à la raison from 1923.
>
>
>
> At 15:42 + 26/06/16, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>>
>> What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a
>> car/driver POV?
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-27 Thread Francisco Torres 
I remember seeing  that kind of thing in late 60s Psych rock clips... The
precursors of MTV.

2016-06-26 23:55 GMT-04:00 o...@thenowcorporation.com <
o...@thenowcorporation.com>:

> was it Thanatopsis? love that film.
>
> Owen's mobile device
>
>
>
> On Jun 26, 2016, at 8:42 PM, Colinet André <colinet.an...@coditel.net>
> wrote:
>
> I agree with Myron and Fred.
> That makes three cranky old schoolers.
> Colinet André
> Brussels
>
> *From:* Myron Ort <z...@sonic.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 27, 2016 12:09 AM
> *To:* Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Frameworks] History question
>
> in the 60s we all would shoot elapsed time single exposures of lights at
> night either moving the camera while exposing or letting the movement of
> the car or whatever make the streaks, usually superimposing over other
> stuff.  Not necessarily long term time lapse requiring a timer though...
> Ed Emshwiller did something like this way back, I forget which film…..
>
> no big deal, and who cares who did it first…..
>
> btw, “Koyaanisqatsi” always just seemed like a high budget student film to
> me, same subject matter and trivial default message of every student film I
> saw as a film instructor…..you can hardly go out with your camera in an
> urban environment and fool around with various techniques and not make a
> film  with that “message”…….by default….
>
> --another cranky old schooler…..
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote:
>
>
> Cancel my last post. It's been pointed out that you were not replying to
> me, sorry. I don't need to get more involved in all this!
> Fred Camper
> Chicago
>
> On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>
> Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to any
> clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's why the
> question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.
>
>  /
> <  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko
>  /
>
>
>
> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres <fjtorre...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the
> Vimeo video?
>
> 2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran <televis...@hotmail.com>:
>
>> Cranky Camper.
>>
>> Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote:
>>
>> The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable
>> question in film history. You would have to see every film ever made,
>> including all the ones that have been lost, to answer it.
>>
>> Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?
>>
>> Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland that
>> no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if "Koyaanisqatsi"
>> "popularized" the effect, does that mean that every subsequent use of it
>> was a result? Surely there are filmmakers since who discovered it on their
>> own. If you are filming a car ride with a camera with single framing, it's
>> kind of an obvious thing to try.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of
>> the 1960s.
>>
>> Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not
>> completely).
>> Fred Camper
>> Chicago
>>
>> On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> A historical question:
>>
>> What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
>> car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was 
>> it first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the 
>> Road that featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the 
>> first, were we?  You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on 
>> Vimeo athttps://vimeo.com/25296928
>>
>> When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate 
>> sequence from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing 
>> real-world cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film 
>> festival in 1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 
>> and not shown since.
>>
>> So who originated this effect?
>>
>> Gregory Gutenko
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Frame

Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread o...@thenowcorporation.com 
was it Thanatopsis? love that film.

Owen's mobile device



> On Jun 26, 2016, at 8:42 PM, Colinet André <colinet.an...@coditel.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree with Myron and Fred.
> That makes three cranky old schoolers.
> Colinet André
> Brussels
>  
> From: Myron Ort
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 12:09 AM
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] History question
>  
> in the 60s we all would shoot elapsed time single exposures of lights at 
> night either moving the camera while exposing or letting the movement of the 
> car or whatever make the streaks, usually superimposing over other stuff.  
> Not necessarily long term time lapse requiring a timer though...
> Ed Emshwiller did something like this way back, I forget which film…..
>  
> no big deal, and who cares who did it first…..
>  
> btw, “Koyaanisqatsi” always just seemed like a high budget student film to 
> me, same subject matter and trivial default message of every student film I 
> saw as a film instructor…..you can hardly go out with your camera in an urban 
> environment and fool around with various techniques and not make a film  with 
> that “message”…….by default….
>  
> --another cranky old schooler…..
>  
>  
>  
>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Cancel my last post. It's been pointed out that you were not replying to me, 
>> sorry. I don't need to get more involved in all this!
>> 
>> Fred Camper
>> Chicago
>> 
>>> On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>>> Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to any 
>>> clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's why the 
>>> question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.
>>> 
>>>  / 
>>> <  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko 
>>>  /
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres <fjtorre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the 
>>>> Vimeo video?
>>>>  
>>>> 2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran <televis...@hotmail.com>:
>>>>> Cranky Camper.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Tim
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable 
>>>>>> question in film history. You would have to see every film ever made, 
>>>>>> including all the ones that have been lost, to answer it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland 
>>>>>> that no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if 
>>>>>> "Koyaanisqatsi" "popularized" the effect, does that mean that every 
>>>>>> subsequent use of it was a result? Surely there are filmmakers since who 
>>>>>> discovered it on their own. If you are filming a car ride with a camera 
>>>>>> with single framing, it's kind of an obvious thing to try.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of 
>>>>>> the 1960s.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not 
>>>>>> completely).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fred Camper
>>>>>> Chicago
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A historical question:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from 
>>>>>>> a car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but 
>>>>>>> when was it first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called 
>>>>>>> Nervous on the Road that featured this technique at mid-point, but 
>>>>>>> surely we weren't the first, were we?

Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Myron Ort 
Just saying, that is an Experimental Film circa 1962.  Ed Emshwiller !  was ok 
in my book.

Myron Ort




> On Jun 26, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Myron Ort <z...@sonic.net> wrote:
> 
> Ed Emshwiller, hey kids take a look:
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDoH_KGTR7A 
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDoH_KGTR7A>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 5:42 PM, Colinet André <colinet.an...@coditel.net 
>> <mailto:colinet.an...@coditel.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> I agree with Myron and Fred.
>> That makes three cranky old schoolers.
>> Colinet André
>> Brussels
>>  
>> From: Myron Ort <mailto:z...@sonic.net>
>> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 12:09 AM
>> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <mailto:frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] History question
>>  
>> in the 60s we all would shoot elapsed time single exposures of lights at 
>> night either moving the camera while exposing or letting the movement of the 
>> car or whatever make the streaks, usually superimposing over other stuff.  
>> Not necessarily long term time lapse requiring a timer though...
>> Ed Emshwiller did something like this way back, I forget which film…..
>>  
>> no big deal, and who cares who did it first…..
>>  
>> btw, “Koyaanisqatsi” always just seemed like a high budget student film to 
>> me, same subject matter and trivial default message of every student film I 
>> saw as a film instructor…..you can hardly go out with your camera in an 
>> urban environment and fool around with various techniques and not make a 
>> film  with that “message”…….by default….
>>  
>> --another cranky old schooler…..
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com 
>>> <mailto:f...@fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> Cancel my last post. It's been pointed out that you were not replying to 
>>> me, sorry. I don't need to get more involved in all this!
>>> Fred Camper
>>> Chicago
>>> 
>>> On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>>>> Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to any 
>>>> clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's why the 
>>>> question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.
>>>> 
>>>>  / 
>>>> <  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko 
>>>>  /
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres <fjtorre...@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:fjtorre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the 
>>>>> Vimeo video?
>>>>>  
>>>>> 2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran <televis...@hotmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:televis...@hotmail.com>>:
>>>>>> Cranky Camper.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:f...@fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable 
>>>>>>> question in film history. You would have to see every film ever made, 
>>>>>>> including all the ones that have been lost, to answer it.
>>>>>>> Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland 
>>>>>>> that no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if 
>>>>>>> "Koyaanisqatsi" "popularized" the effect, does that mean that every 
>>>>>>> subsequent use of it was a result? Surely there are filmmakers since 
>>>>>>> who discovered it on their own. If you are filming a car ride with a 
>>>>>>> camera with single framing, it's kind of an obvious thing to try.
>>>>>>> I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of 
>>>>>>> the 1960s.
>>>>>>> Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidd

Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Myron Ort 
Ed Emshwiller, hey kids take a look:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDoH_KGTR7A 
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDoH_KGTR7A>









> On Jun 26, 2016, at 5:42 PM, Colinet André <colinet.an...@coditel.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree with Myron and Fred.
> That makes three cranky old schoolers.
> Colinet André
> Brussels
>  
> From: Myron Ort <mailto:z...@sonic.net>
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 12:09 AM
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <mailto:frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] History question
>  
> in the 60s we all would shoot elapsed time single exposures of lights at 
> night either moving the camera while exposing or letting the movement of the 
> car or whatever make the streaks, usually superimposing over other stuff.  
> Not necessarily long term time lapse requiring a timer though...
> Ed Emshwiller did something like this way back, I forget which film…..
>  
> no big deal, and who cares who did it first…..
>  
> btw, “Koyaanisqatsi” always just seemed like a high budget student film to 
> me, same subject matter and trivial default message of every student film I 
> saw as a film instructor…..you can hardly go out with your camera in an urban 
> environment and fool around with various techniques and not make a film  with 
> that “message”…….by default….
>  
> --another cranky old schooler…..
>  
>  
>  
>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com 
>> <mailto:f...@fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>>  
>> Cancel my last post. It's been pointed out that you were not replying to me, 
>> sorry. I don't need to get more involved in all this!
>> Fred Camper
>> Chicago
>> 
>> On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>>> Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to any 
>>> clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's why the 
>>> question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.
>>> 
>>>  / 
>>> <  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko 
>>>  /
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres <fjtorre...@gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:fjtorre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the 
>>>> Vimeo video?
>>>>  
>>>> 2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran <televis...@hotmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:televis...@hotmail.com>>:
>>>>> Cranky Camper.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Tim
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com 
>>>>> <mailto:f...@fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable 
>>>>>> question in film history. You would have to see every film ever made, 
>>>>>> including all the ones that have been lost, to answer it.
>>>>>> Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland 
>>>>>> that no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if 
>>>>>> "Koyaanisqatsi" "popularized" the effect, does that mean that every 
>>>>>> subsequent use of it was a result? Surely there are filmmakers since who 
>>>>>> discovered it on their own. If you are filming a car ride with a camera 
>>>>>> with single framing, it's kind of an obvious thing to try.
>>>>>> I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of 
>>>>>> the 1960s.
>>>>>> Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not 
>>>>>> completely).
>>>>>> Fred Camper
>>>>>> Chicago
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A historical question:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from 
>>>>>>> a car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but 
>>>>>>> w

Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Colinet André 
I agree with Myron and Fred.
That makes three cranky old schoolers.
Colinet André
Brussels

From: Myron Ort 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 12:09 AM
To: Experimental Film Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [Frameworks] History question

in the 60s we all would shoot elapsed time single exposures of lights at night 
either moving the camera while exposing or letting the movement of the car or 
whatever make the streaks, usually superimposing over other stuff.  Not 
necessarily long term time lapse requiring a timer though... 
Ed Emshwiller did something like this way back, I forget which film…..

no big deal, and who cares who did it first…..

btw, “Koyaanisqatsi” always just seemed like a high budget student film to me, 
same subject matter and trivial default message of every student film I saw as 
a film instructor…..you can hardly go out with your camera in an urban 
environment and fool around with various techniques and not make a film  with 
that “message”…….by default…. 

--another cranky old schooler…..



  On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote:

  Cancel my last post. It's been pointed out that you were not replying to me, 
sorry. I don't need to get more involved in all this!

  Fred Camper
  Chicago


  On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:

Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to any 
clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's why the 
question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.

 /  
<  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko  
 /



On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres <fjtorre...@gmail.com> wrote:


  If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the 
Vimeo video?

  2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran <televis...@hotmail.com>:

Cranky Camper. 

Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory. 

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper <f...@fredcamper.com> wrote:


  The question of who was first with an  effect is the most 
unanswerable question in film history. You would have to see every film ever 
made, including all the ones that have been lost, to answer it.


  Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?

  Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland 
that no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if "Koyaanisqatsi" 
"popularized" the effect, does that mean that every subsequent use of it was a 
result? Surely there are filmmakers since who discovered it on their own. If 
you are filming a car ride with a camera with single framing, it's kind of an 
obvious thing to try.

  I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films 
of the 1960s.


  Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not 
completely).


  Fred Camper
  Chicago


  On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:

Hello All,

A historical question:

What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was it 
first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the Road that 
featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the first, were we? 
 You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on Vimeo at
https://vimeo.com/25296928

When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate sequence 
from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing real-world 
cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film festival in 
1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 and not shown 
since.

So who originated this effect?

Gregory Gutenko
 

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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Myron Ort 
in the 60s we all would shoot elapsed time single exposures of lights at night 
either moving the camera while exposing or letting the movement of the car or 
whatever make the streaks, usually superimposing over other stuff.  Not 
necessarily long term time lapse requiring a timer though...
 Ed Emshwiller did something like this way back, I forget which film…..

no big deal, and who cares who did it first…..

btw, “Koyaanisqatsi” always just seemed like a high budget student film to me, 
same subject matter and trivial default message of every student film I saw as 
a film instructor…..you can hardly go out with your camera in an urban 
environment and fool around with various techniques and not make a film  with 
that “message”…….by default…. 

--another cranky old schooler…..



> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Fred Camper  wrote:
> 
> Cancel my last post. It's been pointed out that you were not replying to me, 
> sorry. I don't need to get more involved in all this!
> 
> Fred Camper
> Chicago
> 
> On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>> Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to any 
>> clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's why the 
>> question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.
>> 
>>  / 
>> <  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko  
>>  /
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres < 
>> fjtorre...@gmail.com 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the 
>>> Vimeo video?
>>> 
>>> 2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran >> >:
>>> Cranky Camper. 
>>> 
>>> Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory. 
>>> 
>>> Tim
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper < 
>>> f...@fredcamper.com 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
 The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable 
 question in film history. You would have to see every film ever made, 
 including all the ones that have been lost, to answer it.
 Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?
 
 Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland that 
 no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if "Koyaanisqatsi" 
 "popularized" the effect, does that mean that every subsequent use of it 
 was a result? Surely there are filmmakers since who discovered it on their 
 own. If you are filming a car ride with a camera with single framing, it's 
 kind of an obvious thing to try.
 
 I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of the 
 1960s.
 Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not 
 completely).
 Fred Camper
 Chicago
 
 On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> A historical question:
> 
> What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
> car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when 
> was it first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on 
> the Road that featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't 
> the first, were we?  You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out 
> on Vimeo at
> https://vimeo.com/25296928 
> 
> When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate 
> sequence from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing 
> real-world cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a 
> film festival in 1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 
> 1980 and not shown since.
> 
> So who originated this effect?
> 
> Gregory Gutenko
> 
> 
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com 
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks 
> 
 
 ___
 FrameWorks mailing list
 FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com 
 https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks 
 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com 
>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com

Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Tim Halloran 
Agreed. Peace.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Fred Camper 
> wrote:


Cancel my last post. It's been pointed out that you were not replying to me, 
sorry. I don't need to get more involved in all this!

Fred Camper
Chicago

On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to any 
clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's why the 
question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.

 /
<  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko
 /



On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres 
<fjtorre...@gmail.com>
 wrote:

If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the Vimeo 
video?

2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran 
>:
Cranky Camper.

Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper 
<f...@fredcamper.com> 
wrote:


The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable question 
in film history. You would have to see every film ever made, including all the 
ones that have been lost, to answer it.

Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?

Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland that no 
one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if "Koyaanisqatsi" 
"popularized" the effect, does that mean that every subsequent use of it was a 
result? Surely there are filmmakers since who discovered it on their own. If 
you are filming a car ride with a camera with single framing, it's kind of an 
obvious thing to try.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of the 
1960s.

Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not completely).

Fred Camper
Chicago

On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:

Hello All,

A historical question:

What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was it 
first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the Road that 
featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the first, were we? 
 You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on Vimeo at
https://vimeo.com/25296928

When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate sequence 
from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing real-world 
cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film festival in 
1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 and not shown 
since.

So who originated this effect?

Gregory Gutenko



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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Tim Halloran 
"Attack"? What are you even talking about? I believe the OP was referring to 
the Vimeo description being a "provocation," not your response. 

I, on the other hand, thought your tone in the original reply was definitely 
cranky and judging by this follow-up, you're still having a bad day. 

Sorry about that. 

Tim


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 26, 2016, at 1:59 PM, Fred Camper  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>> Provocation.  Works for Trump
> I'm not going to descend into this kind of ad hominem attack. The "first" 
> question has long been a problem in film history, and I tried to indicate why.
> 
> Fred Camper
> Chicago
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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Fred Camper 
Cancel my last post. It's been pointed out that you were not replying to 
me, sorry. I don't need to get more involved in all this!


Fred Camper
Chicago

On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to 
any clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's 
why the question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.


 /
<  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko
 /



On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres > wrote:


If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in 
the Vimeo video?


2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran >:


Cranky Camper.

Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper > wrote:


The question of who was first with an effect is the most
unanswerable question in film history. You would have to see
every film ever made, including all the ones that have been
lost, to answer it.

Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?

Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in
Finland that no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify?
Even if "Koyaanisqatsi" "popularized" the effect, does that mean
that every subsequent use of it was a result? Surely there are
filmmakers since who discovered it on their own. If you are
filming a car ride with a camera with single framing, it's kind
of an obvious thing to try.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental"
films of the 1960s.

Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not
completely).

Fred Camper
Chicago

On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:

Hello All,

A historical question:

What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was it 
first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the Road that 
featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the first, were we? 
 You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on Vimeo at
https://vimeo.com/25296928

When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate 
sequence from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing 
real-world cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film 
festival in 1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 and 
not shown since.

So who originated this effect?

Gregory Gutenko


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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Fred Camper 



On 6/26/2016 2:42 PM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:

Provocation.  Works for Trump
I'm not going to descend into this kind of ad hominem attack. The 
"first" question has long been a problem in film history, and I tried to 
indicate why.


Fred Camper
Chicago
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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Gutenko, Gregory 
Provocation.  Works for Trump.  But so far we had not been directed to any 
clips of "streaky-lights car POV" footage prior to 1975.  That's why the 
question is out there.  Happy to revise when 'fact-checked'.

 /
<  DV  >  Gregory Gutenko
 /



On Jun 26, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Francisco Torres 
> wrote:

If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the Vimeo 
video?

2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran 
>:
Cranky Camper.

Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper 
> wrote:


The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable question 
in film history. You would have to see every film ever made, including all the 
ones that have been lost, to answer it.

Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?

Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland that no 
one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if "Koyaanisqatsi" 
"popularized" the effect, does that mean that every subsequent use of it was a 
result? Surely there are filmmakers since who discovered it on their own. If 
you are filming a car ride with a camera with single framing, it's kind of an 
obvious thing to try.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of the 
1960s.

Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not completely).

Fred Camper
Chicago

On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:

Hello All,

A historical question:

What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was it 
first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the Road that 
featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the first, were we? 
 You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on Vimeo at
https://vimeo.com/25296928

When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate sequence 
from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing real-world 
cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film festival in 
1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 and not shown 
since.

So who originated this effect?

Gregory Gutenko



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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Francisco Torres 
If you are not sure it was the ''first time ever'' why claim it in the
Vimeo video?

2016-06-26 14:17 GMT-04:00 Tim Halloran :

> Cranky Camper.
>
> Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper  wrote:
>
> The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable
> question in film history. You would have to see every film ever made,
> including all the ones that have been lost, to answer it.
>
> Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?
>
> Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland that
> no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if "Koyaanisqatsi"
> "popularized" the effect, does that mean that every subsequent use of it
> was a result? Surely there are filmmakers since who discovered it on their
> own. If you are filming a car ride with a camera with single framing, it's
> kind of an obvious thing to try.
>
> I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of the
> 1960s.
>
> Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not
> completely).
> Fred Camper
> Chicago
>
> On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> A historical question:
>
> What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
> car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was 
> it first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the Road 
> that featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the first, 
> were we?  You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on Vimeo 
> athttps://vimeo.com/25296928
>
> When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate 
> sequence from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing 
> real-world cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film 
> festival in 1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 and 
> not shown since.
>
> So who originated this effect?
>
> Gregory Gutenko
>
>
>
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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Tim Halloran 
Cranky Camper.

Regardless, a pretty cool little film Gregory.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Fred Camper 
> wrote:


The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable question 
in film history. You would have to see every film ever made, including all the 
ones that have been lost, to answer it.

Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?

Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland that no 
one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if "Koyaanisqatsi" 
"popularized" the effect, does that mean that every subsequent use of it was a 
result? Surely there are filmmakers since who discovered it on their own. If 
you are filming a car ride with a camera with single framing, it's kind of an 
obvious thing to try.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of the 
1960s.

Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not completely).

Fred Camper
Chicago

On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:

Hello All,

A historical question:

What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was it 
first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the Road that 
featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the first, were we? 
 You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on Vimeo at
https://vimeo.com/25296928

When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate sequence 
from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing real-world 
cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film festival in 
1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 and not shown 
since.

So who originated this effect?

Gregory Gutenko



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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Gutenko, Gregory 
Ah ha!  Thanks!  I never seen this film.

From: FrameWorks [frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] on behalf of Pip 
Chodorov [framewo...@re-voir.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 11:08 AM
To: Experimental Film Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Frameworks] History question

Henri Chomette did some of that in 1925 although
he used train tunnels - not sure if headlights
were bright then (see around the two-minute mark
and around 5:40 of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcQdU94mJs4).

There are also some bits in Man Ray's Retour à la raison from 1923.



At 15:42 + 26/06/16, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
>What was the first film to do a time-exposed
>single-frame sequence from a car/driver POV?
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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Pip Chodorov 
Henri Chomette did some of that in 1925 although 
he used train tunnels - not sure if headlights 
were bright then (see around the two-minute mark 
and around 5:40 of 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcQdU94mJs4).


There are also some bits in Man Ray's Retour à la raison from 1923.



At 15:42 + 26/06/16, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:
What was the first film to do a time-exposed 
single-frame sequence from a car/driver POV?

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Re: [Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Fred Camper 
The question of who was first with an  effect is the most unanswerable 
question in film history. You would have to see every film ever made, 
including all the ones that have been lost, to answer it.


Even if you could answer it, what would the answer mean?

Perhaps the first was a 1937 film by an amateur filmmaker in Finland 
that no one ever saw. So what would that fact signify? Even if 
"Koyaanisqatsi" "popularized" the effect, does that mean that every 
subsequent use of it was a result? Surely there are filmmakers since who 
discovered it on their own. If you are filming a car ride with a camera 
with single framing, it's kind of an obvious thing to try.


I'm pretty sure I've seen this in lesser known "experimental" films of 
the 1960s.


Personally, I hope no one tries it again (just kidding, but not completely).

Fred Camper
Chicago

On 6/26/2016 10:42 AM, Gutenko, Gregory wrote:

Hello All,

A historical question:

What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was it 
first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the Road that 
featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the first, were we? 
 You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on Vimeo at
https://vimeo.com/25296928

When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate sequence 
from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing real-world 
cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film festival in 
1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 and not shown 
since.

So who originated this effect?

Gregory Gutenko


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[Frameworks] History question

2016-06-26 Thread Gutenko, Gregory 
Hello All,

A historical question:

What was the first film to do a time-exposed single-frame sequence from a 
car/driver POV?  Koyaanisqatsi popularized the effect in 1983, but when was it 
first done?  I worked on a student film in 1975 called Nervous on the Road that 
featured this technique at mid-point, but surely we weren't the first, were we? 
 You can check a very compressed file of Nervous out on Vimeo at
https://vimeo.com/25296928

When we did this we were going for the slit-scan look of the stargate sequence 
from 2001, but that was an animation process and we were doing real-world 
cinematography with a wind-up Bolex.  It won an award at a film festival in 
1997 and was broadcast over four midwest PBS stations in 1980 and not shown 
since.

So who originated this effect?

Gregory Gutenko___
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Re: [Frameworks] History question about Hallelujah the Hills

2014-04-06 Thread Pip Chodorov 
BO made the optical effects, such as the white frames within the 
frame that appear in some scenes.
Jonas later used them again, probably for Award Presentation to Andy 
Warhol, to have each frame reprinted twice.




At 11:09 -0400 4/04/14, Michael Betancourt wrote:
In doing some unrelated research into the animator Byron Rabbitt, I 
ran across a mention of Hallelujah the Hills and the NY documentary 
production company BO Film Specialists, Inc. What did BO do on the 
film? Did they produce its titles?

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[Frameworks] History question about Hallelujah the Hills

2014-04-04 Thread Michael Betancourt 
In doing some unrelated research into the animator Byron Rabbitt, I ran
across a mention of Hallelujah the Hills and the NY documentary production
company BO Film Specialists, Inc. What did BO do on the film? Did they
produce its titles?

Michael Betancourt
Savannah, GA USA


michaelbetancourt.com
twitter.com/cinegraphic | vimeo.com/cinegraphic
www.cinegraphic.net | the avant-garde film  video blog
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