Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video
Jean Rouch should definitely be mentioned, especially Les Maitres Fous, Jaguar, and Chronicle of a Summer - as he influenced Godard and the French New Wave. The unavailability of his films in the U.S. has eased in recent months due to institutional DVD copies being made available through Icarus. Much ethnographic film from various eras would apply: The Ax Fight (self-reflexivity) and To Live With Herds (observational cinema landmark) come to mind, as does Mead and Bateson's groundbreaking work like Trance and Dance in Bali. Also Robert Gardner's Forest of Bliss and Lucien Taylor's and Verena Paravel's recent Leviathan (for ideas of sensory ethnography). Shirley Clarke's Portrait of Jason, for ideas of changing representation of black and LGBT cultures and figures in documentary. Of course, Black Audio Film Collective's Handsworth Songs and everything by Marlon Riggs. Further away from experimental here, but an argument could be made for This Is Spinal Tap as a pivotal work of fake documentary, with influence far beyond comedy/fiction. Definitively unavailable, and completely pivotal: An American Family. Andy Ditzler www.filmlove.org www.johnq.org Graduate Institute of the Liberal Arts, Emory University On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:19 PM, David Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking to help a friend do research on the history of documentary, and I'd like to introduce him to some of the more experimental side of the form. For his purposes, the work needs to available on video: he needs to see stuff, not just read about it, and he needs to be able to pull decent quality clips for presentation. So I'm not looking for more purely experimental films that have some actuality footage, but something more readily recognizable under a (very) broad rubric of 'documentary'. Something like Sonic Outlaws' or Odds of Recovery would be pretty central examples. About as far down the experimental scale I'd want to get would be such films as Window Water Baby Moving or Sink or Swim. (Thus, for example, Thigh Line Lyre Triangular is too 'far out' for this purpose.) I'd also welcome suggestions for essay-form docs beyond Marker (which I've already got). Another example of such might be Mulvey's 'Frida Kahlo / Tina Modotti With those loose guidelines, feel free to recommend away without worrying too much about the 'fit'. I can/will edit the recs I pass on... TIA! ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video
RE: An American Family, it's true that it was long unavailable, but it was released on DVD in 2011, so now it needs not simply be the stuff of legend: http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=11645510 ... R. On Jan 11, 2014, at 12:16 PM, Andy Ditzler wrote: Jean Rouch should definitely be mentioned, especially Les Maitres Fous, Jaguar, and Chronicle of a Summer - as he influenced Godard and the French New Wave. The unavailability of his films in the U.S. has eased in recent months due to institutional DVD copies being made available through Icarus. Much ethnographic film from various eras would apply: The Ax Fight (self-reflexivity) and To Live With Herds (observational cinema landmark) come to mind, as does Mead and Bateson's groundbreaking work like Trance and Dance in Bali. Also Robert Gardner's Forest of Bliss and Lucien Taylor's and Verena Paravel's recent Leviathan (for ideas of sensory ethnography). Shirley Clarke's Portrait of Jason, for ideas of changing representation of black and LGBT cultures and figures in documentary. Of course, Black Audio Film Collective's Handsworth Songs and everything by Marlon Riggs. Further away from experimental here, but an argument could be made for This Is Spinal Tap as a pivotal work of fake documentary, with influence far beyond comedy/fiction. Definitively unavailable, and completely pivotal: An American Family. Andy Ditzler www.filmlove.orghttp://www.filmlove.org/ www.johnq.orghttp://www.johnq.org/ Graduate Institute of the Liberal Arts, Emory University On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:19 PM, David Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.commailto:djte...@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking to help a friend do research on the history of documentary, and I'd like to introduce him to some of the more experimental side of the form. For his purposes, the work needs to available on video: he needs to see stuff, not just read about it, and he needs to be able to pull decent quality clips for presentation. So I'm not looking for more purely experimental films that have some actuality footage, but something more readily recognizable under a (very) broad rubric of 'documentary'. Something like Sonic Outlaws' or Odds of Recovery would be pretty central examples. About as far down the experimental scale I'd want to get would be such films as Window Water Baby Moving or Sink or Swim. (Thus, for example, Thigh Line Lyre Triangular is too 'far out' for this purpose.) I'd also welcome suggestions for essay-form docs beyond Marker (which I've already got). Another example of such might be Mulvey's 'Frida Kahlo / Tina Modotti With those loose guidelines, feel free to recommend away without worrying too much about the 'fit'. I can/will edit the recs I pass on... TIA! ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.commailto:FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.commailto:FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video
An American Family was influenced by Arthur Ginsberg’s “The Continuing Story of Carel and Ferd” (1970-72, EAI and VDB). From: Andy Ditzler Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2014 10:16 AM To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video Jean Rouch should definitely be mentioned, especially Les Maitres Fous, Jaguar, and Chronicle of a Summer - as he influenced Godard and the French New Wave. The unavailability of his films in the U.S. has eased in recent months due to institutional DVD copies being made available through Icarus. Much ethnographic film from various eras would apply: The Ax Fight (self-reflexivity) and To Live With Herds (observational cinema landmark) come to mind, as does Mead and Bateson's groundbreaking work like Trance and Dance in Bali. Also Robert Gardner's Forest of Bliss and Lucien Taylor's and Verena Paravel's recent Leviathan (for ideas of sensory ethnography). Shirley Clarke's Portrait of Jason, for ideas of changing representation of black and LGBT cultures and figures in documentary. Of course, Black Audio Film Collective's Handsworth Songs and everything by Marlon Riggs. Further away from experimental here, but an argument could be made for This Is Spinal Tap as a pivotal work of fake documentary, with influence far beyond comedy/fiction. Definitively unavailable, and completely pivotal: An American Family. Andy Ditzler www.filmlove.org www.johnq.org Graduate Institute of the Liberal Arts, Emory University On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:19 PM, David Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking to help a friend do research on the history of documentary, and I'd like to introduce him to some of the more experimental side of the form. For his purposes, the work needs to available on video: he needs to see stuff, not just read about it, and he needs to be able to pull decent quality clips for presentation. So I'm not looking for more purely experimental films that have some actuality footage, but something more readily recognizable under a (very) broad rubric of 'documentary'. Something like Sonic Outlaws' or Odds of Recovery would be pretty central examples. About as far down the experimental scale I'd want to get would be such films as Window Water Baby Moving or Sink or Swim. (Thus, for example, Thigh Line Lyre Triangular is too 'far out' for this purpose.) I'd also welcome suggestions for essay-form docs beyond Marker (which I've already got). Another example of such might be Mulvey's 'Frida Kahlo / Tina Modotti With those loose guidelines, feel free to recommend away without worrying too much about the 'fit'. I can/will edit the recs I pass on... TIA! ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video
Hi Roger, I hadn't checked recently and didn't know about this DVD release - thanks for the tip - but it looks like it's a condensed two-hour version of the original 12-hour series. At least something's out there, but nothing can replace the scope of the full series. Sad. Andy Ditzler On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Beebe, Roger roge...@ufl.edu wrote: RE: An American Family, it's true that it was long unavailable, but it was released on DVD in 2011, so now it needs not simply be the stuff of legend: http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=11645510 ... R. On Jan 11, 2014, at 12:16 PM, Andy Ditzler wrote: Jean Rouch should definitely be mentioned, especially Les Maitres Fous, Jaguar, and Chronicle of a Summer - as he influenced Godard and the French New Wave. The unavailability of his films in the U.S. has eased in recent months due to institutional DVD copies being made available through Icarus. Much ethnographic film from various eras would apply: The Ax Fight (self-reflexivity) and To Live With Herds (observational cinema landmark) come to mind, as does Mead and Bateson's groundbreaking work like Trance and Dance in Bali. Also Robert Gardner's Forest of Bliss and Lucien Taylor's and Verena Paravel's recent Leviathan (for ideas of sensory ethnography). Shirley Clarke's Portrait of Jason, for ideas of changing representation of black and LGBT cultures and figures in documentary. Of course, Black Audio Film Collective's Handsworth Songs and everything by Marlon Riggs. Further away from experimental here, but an argument could be made for This Is Spinal Tap as a pivotal work of fake documentary, with influence far beyond comedy/fiction. Definitively unavailable, and completely pivotal: An American Family. Andy Ditzler www.filmlove.org www.johnq.org Graduate Institute of the Liberal Arts, Emory University On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:19 PM, David Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking to help a friend do research on the history of documentary, and I'd like to introduce him to some of the more experimental side of the form. For his purposes, the work needs to available on video: he needs to see stuff, not just read about it, and he needs to be able to pull decent quality clips for presentation. So I'm not looking for more purely experimental films that have some actuality footage, but something more readily recognizable under a (very) broad rubric of 'documentary'. Something like Sonic Outlaws' or Odds of Recovery would be pretty central examples. About as far down the experimental scale I'd want to get would be such films as Window Water Baby Moving or Sink or Swim. (Thus, for example, Thigh Line Lyre Triangular is too 'far out' for this purpose.) I'd also welcome suggestions for essay-form docs beyond Marker (which I've already got). Another example of such might be Mulvey's 'Frida Kahlo / Tina Modotti With those loose guidelines, feel free to recommend away without worrying too much about the 'fit'. I can/will edit the recs I pass on... TIA! ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks -- Andy Ditzler www.filmlove.org www.johnq.org Graduate Institute of the Liberal Arts, Emory University ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video
Check this guy out: http://www.sell.com/2527LQ Bootleg of the complete series. Tim Sent from my iPhone On Jan 11, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Andy Ditzler a...@andyditzler.com wrote: Hi Roger, I hadn't checked recently and didn't know about this DVD release - thanks for the tip - but it looks like it's a condensed two-hour version of the original 12-hour series. At least something's out there, but nothing can replace the scope of the full series. Sad. Andy Ditzler On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Beebe, Roger roge...@ufl.edu wrote: RE: An American Family, it's true that it was long unavailable, but it was released on DVD in 2011, so now it needs not simply be the stuff of legend: http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=11645510 ... R. On Jan 11, 2014, at 12:16 PM, Andy Ditzler wrote: Jean Rouch should definitely be mentioned, especially Les Maitres Fous, Jaguar, and Chronicle of a Summer - as he influenced Godard and the French New Wave. The unavailability of his films in the U.S. has eased in recent months due to institutional DVD copies being made available through Icarus. Much ethnographic film from various eras would apply: The Ax Fight (self-reflexivity) and To Live With Herds (observational cinema landmark) come to mind, as does Mead and Bateson's groundbreaking work like Trance and Dance in Bali. Also Robert Gardner's Forest of Bliss and Lucien Taylor's and Verena Paravel's recent Leviathan (for ideas of sensory ethnography). Shirley Clarke's Portrait of Jason, for ideas of changing representation of black and LGBT cultures and figures in documentary. Of course, Black Audio Film Collective's Handsworth Songs and everything by Marlon Riggs. Further away from experimental here, but an argument could be made for This Is Spinal Tap as a pivotal work of fake documentary, with influence far beyond comedy/fiction. Definitively unavailable, and completely pivotal: An American Family. Andy Ditzler www.filmlove.org www.johnq.org Graduate Institute of the Liberal Arts, Emory University On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:19 PM, David Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking to help a friend do research on the history of documentary, and I'd like to introduce him to some of the more experimental side of the form. For his purposes, the work needs to available on video: he needs to see stuff, not just read about it, and he needs to be able to pull decent quality clips for presentation. So I'm not looking for more purely experimental films that have some actuality footage, but something more readily recognizable under a (very) broad rubric of 'documentary'. Something like Sonic Outlaws' or Odds of Recovery would be pretty central examples. About as far down the experimental scale I'd want to get would be such films as Window Water Baby Moving or Sink or Swim. (Thus, for example, Thigh Line Lyre Triangular is too 'far out' for this purpose.) I'd also welcome suggestions for essay-form docs beyond Marker (which I've already got). Another example of such might be Mulvey's 'Frida Kahlo / Tina Modotti With those loose guidelines, feel free to recommend away without worrying too much about the 'fit'. I can/will edit the recs I pass on... TIA! ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks -- Andy Ditzler www.filmlove.org www.johnq.org Graduate Institute of the Liberal Arts, Emory University ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video
If you're interested in recent short form - my series The Observatory, I believe, meets your criteria. I'm not a well-represented somebody, not sure if that matters, but my work is adding to the discussion of non-fiction film without being too out there (or that's my motivation to say the least). http://bryanmcmanus.com/THE-OBSERVATORY Good luck! - Also - am interested in your final list if you care to post it! -Bryan On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 5:19 PM, David Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking to help a friend do research on the history of documentary, and I'd like to introduce him to some of the more experimental side of the form. For his purposes, the work needs to available on video: he needs to see stuff, not just read about it, and he needs to be able to pull decent quality clips for presentation. So I'm not looking for more purely experimental films that have some actuality footage, but something more readily recognizable under a (very) broad rubric of 'documentary'. Something like Sonic Outlaws' or Odds of Recovery would be pretty central examples. About as far down the experimental scale I'd want to get would be such films as Window Water Baby Moving or Sink or Swim. (Thus, for example, Thigh Line Lyre Triangular is too 'far out' for this purpose.) I'd also welcome suggestions for essay-form docs beyond Marker (which I've already got). Another example of such might be Mulvey's 'Frida Kahlo / Tina Modotti With those loose guidelines, feel free to recommend away without worrying too much about the 'fit'. I can/will edit the recs I pass on... TIA! ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks -- Bryan McManus *|* Filmmaker, Artist call 828.508.1129 write bryanhaysmcma...@gmail.com see bryanmcmanus.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video
'Crooked Beauty' and 'For Shadows' by yours truly. Ken www.maddancementalhealthfilmtrilogy.com www.kenpaulrosenthal.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Looking to build a list of 'Experimental Documentaries' on video
Bryan McManus wrote: I'm not a well-represented somebody, not sure if that matters Alas, it does. My apologies for not being clear enough in the OP. My friend's project involves tracing 'the historical development of the documentary.' What that means is, in short, that the works to be discussed need to have been seen by enough people that they can be considered to have had some influence on the development of the form. That could either be due to some formal innovation or originality of approach that was followed in some ways by other makers, or using existing techniques/styles etc. in a particularly effective way that allows the film to connect with certain audiences. To give an example from NON-experimental docs, I'm going to recommend that Kevin consider Ed Pincus's Diaries, although very few people outside of a fairly narrow documentary community have ever seen it. But, of course, it was extremely influential in all the many different types of diary films that folowed. E.G. it sees to me you'd want to connect Ross McElwee back to Pincus, etc. (Speaking of diaries, I know George Kuchar made many diary films and videos, none of which I've seen (mea culpa). So I don't know how 'documentary' they are, or which of his works in that category would be considered the most exemplary/seen and discussed/ influential etc. etc.) You might describe his project as a sort of multi-media version of Barnouw, but with a more personal approach - more essay than 'objective' history. Part of Kevin's problem is that he's using Barnouw as a resource, and it's woefully outdated. I've forwarded him Pat Aufderheide's more recent Short Introduction To Documentary, but as with any overview, she includes some things I wouldn't and leaves out some things I'd want discusses. Anyway, I'm just a resource for the guy doing the actual project, trying to help him broaden the scope, and make it more up to date than, say, 1985. I just thought I'd poll the List in search of some perhaps-should-be-obvious stuff that hasn't popped into my now senior-moment-challenged mind. And, again, it's not a project about experimental-docs, though that would be a good project in and of itself. I just think Kevin out to put a little bit of the more experimental side of things into his 'big picture,' but in the end he may decide to do little or even none of that. Building a good list might help convince him that some attention to the more avant garde side ought to be included, you know, before we get to Ken Burns (yuchh!). I do hope no one who has suggested their own films feels slighted. I'm not in a position to be judgmental about Kevin's interests. His question is 'how did we get here?' not 'what's happening right now.' If the project was something like (to borrow an Alan Rosenthal-ish title) 'New Directions In 21ist Century Documentary', then I'd be eager to review and forward all your stuff. But it's not. I guess one way of saying it is that the question is probably more up the alley of folks thinking in programmer/curator/scholar mode rather than film artist mode. Not that these are mutuallu exclusive categories by any means: I do know lots of you own more than one hat. --- Another note: the operative defintion of documentary here does NOT include all work that uses the 'real' world as it's subject. There ought to be some forward movement of thought, if not a story, or an argument (essay form), then at least a process. (A beginning-middle and end, though not necessarily in that order as Godard would say) So, for example, Peter Hutton's films, while being pure actualities, are in this sense, not-docuemntaries. This would probably also filter out some works that are in the canon of experimental docs, to the extent that there is one, such as Bridges Go Round. It's a great work, but it doesn't really GO anywhere, if you know what I mean. And again, for the purposes of the project, the works have to be readily accessible in video form. And did I mention that this is a project that has no budget? So, basically I'm looking for stuff we can borrow from a library, rent from Facets/Le Video type sources, etc. For example, let's say I thought there was enough narrative development in some of David Gatten's films about the Byrds to consider them experimental documentaries. These films have been seen widely enough at festivals to be considered part of a broader film/culture discourse, if out at the avant garde edge. But David's a celluloid purist who doesn't distribute his film work in video form, so, no go. (In truth Gatten might be too 'far out' for Kevin, it's just the first example that came to mind). There's good and important stuff out there that remains accessible only through prints, which for merely pragmatic concerns will have to fall outside the scope of the project. This is not only a very limited budget project money-wise, but time-wise. Kevin is not an academic and is doing this as
