RE: Call for testers: SNMPv3 support for bsnmpd(1)
On Mon, 31 Mar 2014, Marciano, Anthony wrote: MACurrently, we are just looking to monitor standard objects such as MAinterfaces and send traps accordingly. Would it be possible to provide MAa trap example of what needs to be added to the snmpd.config file to MAmonitor an object and have it sent via V3? MA MAI've searched for this information and read through various RFCs but MAhave not discovered any bsnmpd specific trap syntax and/or examples. Well, bsnmp can send only the standard traps currently. This is configured via the begemotTrapSinkTable (/usr/share/snmp/mibs/BEGEMOT-SNMPD.txt). Each row in the table is a trap target and all traps are sent to all targets in the table. I don't know, how this interacts with v3, though. harti ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: UDP Lite support
Joe Nosay wrote: On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Kevin Lo ke...@freebsd.org wrote: On 2014/03/28 00:21, John Baldwin wrote: On Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:32:16 am Kevin Lo wrote: Are you interested in working on these and report back? The revised patch is available at: http://people.freebsd.org/~kevlo/udplite.diff Thank you for your suggestions. A few suggestions: - I would just drop the INP lock and return EOPNOTSUPP directly rather than using goto's to 'bad_setoptname' and 'bad_getoptname' so the UDP-lite options are self-contained. Fixed. Thanks. - I'm not a super big fan of all the udp_common_* macros only because I think it obfuscates things. At the very least, please move these things out of the header and into udp_usrreq.c so they are closer to the implementation. I would even suggest making them inline functions instead of macros. Okay, I removed two udp_common_* macros. I also renamed udp_common_init() to udp_udplite_init() and moved it into udp_usrreq.c. Using a macro here to follow the style used in SCTP (sctp_os_bsd.h). Here's a third version of the udp-lite patch: http://people.freebsd.org/~kevlo/udplite.diff Ok, I would say that udp_common_init() is actually a better name if you keep the macro (which I think is fine) rather than udp_udplite_init() as the macro is not specific to UDP Lite. However, thanks for moving the macros out of the header. Thank you John. glebius@ suggests we don't need to have two absolutely equal uma zones since most systems don't run UDP-Lite. If practice shows that a differentiation at zone level between UDP and UDP-Lite PCBs is important, then it could be done later. Following up with a fourth version of the udp-lite patch. http://people.freebsd.org/~kevlo/udplite.diff On top of the previous versions, this: - removes a uma zone for udp-lite - udp_common_ctlinput() belongs under #ifdef INET - removes sysctl nodes for udp-lite. - bumps version and adds my copyright. Kevin Do I patch over the current src- which was already patched with version 3- or do I just start new? Start new, thanks. Kevin ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: but you won't be able to use your graphics card? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Eitan Adler ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 4/1/14, 1:46 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all Hey it's not an apr 1 joke if it's true.. ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: ZFS panic in -CURRENT
on 01/04/2014 02:22 R. Tyler Croy said the following: Bumping this with more details On Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:53:32 -0700 R Tyler Croy ty...@monkeypox.org wrote: Apologies for the rough format here, I had to take a picture of this failure because I didn't know what else to do. http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentdero/13469355463/ I'm building off of the GitHub freebsd.git mirror here, and the latest commit in the tree is neel@'s Add an ioctl to suspend.. My dmesg/pciconf are here: https://gist.github.com/rtyler/1faa854dff7c4396d9e8 As linked before, the dmesg and `pciconf -lv` output can be found here: https://gist.github.com/rtyler/1faa854dff7c4396d9e8 Also in addition to the photo from before of the panic, here's another reproduction photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/agentdero/13472248423/ Are you or have you even been running with any ZFS-related kernel patches? I'm running -CURRENT as of r263881 right now, with a custom kernel which is built on top of the VT kernel (https://github.com/rtyler/freebsd/blob/5e324960f1f2b7079de369204fe228db4a2ec99d/sys/amd64/conf/KIWI) I'm able to get this panic *consistently* whenever a process accesses my maildir folder which I sync with the mbsync program (isync package), such as `mbsync personal` or when I back up the maildir with duplicity. The commonality seems to be listing or accessing portions of this file tree. Curiously enough it only seems to be isolated to that single portion of the filesystem tree. The zpool is also clean as far as errors go: [16:11:03] tyler:freebsd git:(master*) $ zpool status zroot pool: zroot state: ONLINE status: Some supported features are not enabled on the pool. The pool can still be used, but some features are unavailable. action: Enable all features using 'zpool upgrade'. Once this is done, the pool may no longer be accessible by software that does not support the features. See zpool-features(7) for details. scan: scrub repaired 0 in 0h18m with 0 errors on Fri Mar 28 11:55:03 2014 config: NAME STATE READ WRITE CKSUM zroot ONLINE 0 0 0 ada0p3.eli ONLINE 0 0 0 errors: No known data errors [16:19:57] tyler:freebsd git:(master*) $ I'm not sure what other data would be useful here, I can consistently see the panic, but this data is highly personal, so I'm not sure how much of a repro case I can give folks. :( Cheers -- Andriy Gapon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi, On 04/01/14 07:46, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. Can this be translated that the green is always better on the other side ? The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. I agree that there are usability issues with the sound framework in FreeBSD. I've seen this myself, for example trying to get sound using firefox, you now need pulseaudio and it must be configured correctly. I'm pretty sure there are people around in the FreeBSD project that are quite capable and could easily fix these issues, given some coordination and funding. Probably you should ask the FreeBSD foundation to fund a developer for a year or two to work on the desktop issues. Desktop is complicated. You need to understand that many device frameworks are designed entirely for other platforms, and I think that the current approach to compile Linux oriented code like HAL under FreeBSD is not always the right approach. We need to make our own HAL that is compatible with the Linux Applications, that need to know where the scanner or webcam is attached. Speaking about sound again, I think we need a tiny library and daemon that sits between /dev/dspX.X and the applications, that pulls together the most common audio libraries, like portaudio, pulseaudio and the KDE one, into a single and brand new solution. I did propose something at EuroBSDcon last year, that we can use character device emulation in user-space, cuse4bsd, to achieve this. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Did FreeBSD ever compete on the Desktop market? While touching this topic, I must say that I'm very grateful to all you port-guys that keep stuff compiling and working on the Desktop front. I've asked myself a few times during the last couple of years, who are the people really making my FreeBSD Desktop work? Did they receive enough thanks or funds for their work? Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Because something does not work in FreeBSD it can prove an excellent opportunity for someone to fix it! Don't underestimate that! --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 1 Apr 2014, at 08:11, Jordan Hubbard j...@mail.turbofuzz.com wrote: 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list just goes on and on. It’s a lot of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal, in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email. Some things have already seen progress, for example Davide's calloutng work includes timer coalescing, but there are still a lot of, uh, opportunities for improvement. The Symbian EKA2 book has some very interesting detail on their power management infrastructure, which would be worth looking at for anyone interested in working on this, and I believe your former employer had some expertise in this area. Of course, no matter how good the base system becomes at power management, we still can't prevent stuff in ports running idle spinloops. We can, however, provide tools that encourage power-efficient design. For example, currently hald wakes up every 30 seconds and polls the optical drive if you have one. Why? Because there's no devd event when a CD is inserted, so the only way for it to get these notifications is polling. If you have a laptop with an optical drive, this is really bad for power usage. David ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it’s just an elaborate April Fool’s joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool’s joke, so I’m willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) I’ll choose to be serious and say what I’m about to say in spite of the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose “the power to serve” as FreeBSD’s first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS and it’s easy to defend its role in the server room. It’s also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be “BSD on the desktop” (and while they share some common technologies, it’s increasingly a stretch to say that), it’s just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons: 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list just goes on and on. It’s a lot of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. 2. Multimedia. A real end-user’s desktop is basically one big UI for watching things, listening to things, and running apps. A decent audio / video subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that has always been really weak - entire engineering teams can spend years working on codecs, performance optimizations, low and guaranteed latency support for audio I/O, etc. What’s worse, the bar is only being raised. You want to be part of the next wave of folks who can author and edit content for the new 4K video standard? Not on FreeBSD or Linux, you’re not. 3. Applications. A desktop without real and useful applications is not a desktop, it’s just an empty display surface. Sure, there are users out there who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser and maybe a calendaring app, but those users are also arguably even better candidates for Chrome or other simplified environments where all of that simply happens in a fancy web browser and you get things like “software updates” and cloud integration essentially for free since it’s all just one cohesive picture there. The ability to solve those user’s needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the web application delivery platforms. For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit videos or even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually published sometime in the last year, they’ll use a real desktop OS and won't even bother looking at one of the free ones because guess what, the free ones just can’t do those things, or do them badly enough that their users feel like they’re perpetually living in a kind of self-selected ghetto. Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the floor in a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you’re young, but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have a real bed in a real house! Those are just three reasons. There are lots more, not least of which among them is the fact that it’s damn hard even just to *create* significant applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux provide. You have to stitch together some Frankenstein collection of libraries out of ports (or linux packages) and then hope the whole
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hice April 1st piece, Let's see what I could contribute :) On 01.04.14 08:46, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. There is no platform that can do everything as you please. In fact, there can't be any such thing with computers, because they are not humans and only do what we humans instruct (program) them to do, not what we believe we programmed them to do. A slight difference, but important to see things in perspective. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Who said we can't? We did, do and will do that. On a case by case solution. This is strictly hardware specific issue and of course, no other OS can claim good power management on any hardware. Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. Lack of documentation has always been the weak part of any enthusiast work. For people care more about getting the work done, than writing long essays. I would not go that far to say you can't switch audio outputs in a middle of a song (or why not, a movie?). After all, this is strictly hardware specific issue and of course, no other OS can claim good audio management on any hardware. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: but you won't be able to use your graphics card? Purchasing specialized hardware (a laptop), without being aware what software will drive it is always a very bad idea. As for those vendor's proprietary technologies, they don't function on many other modern platforms, not only FreeBSD. Then, there is choice -- you could use other vendor's technologies, if that suits you. Or, if (say) CUDA requires OS XYZ, use that instead of FreeBSD. Not that this has anything to do with desktop. In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. If you will remember, most of this is because of different licensing restrictions imposed by those vendors. I am absolutely confident, Adobe will produce a very good Flash Player for FreeBSD, once you convince them there is money in that. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. FreeBSD is not sold. There is no such thing as market for FreeBSD. Neither in Desktop, Server or whatever other arbitrary segments. In fact, FreeBSD is not even a product -- it is more of a toolkit, which you use to build your very own OS for your very own segment. Yes, 2014 might very well turn out to be the year of Linux, but that is not because of FreeBSD -- Microsoft are helping much more with their insistence to kill Windows XP. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? You mean, all those short lived species will arrive in hordes and destroy the Dragon? Might be, might be not. The dragon has seen thousands of those already come and go. Having fun is most important in the process. :) Daniel ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 4/1/2014 1:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: but you won't be able to use your graphics card? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? I don't know much about BSD on the desktop, but it's somewhere I'd like to go eventually. This comment caught me off, however. The fact that there are thousands of flavors of Linux vs one flavor of a BSD desktop is sort of irrelivant--it could be applied, by that same method to BSD as a server. there are hundreds of Linux distributions that can be used as a server, so by your logic, how do hundreds of Linux servers stand up to 3 flavors of BSD? I switched to BSD for a few reasons: 1) The documentation is amazing. As with any project, it can be improved as was mentioned in the most recent BSDNow, but the only other close call I can see is maybe Archlinux, and I don't want that on a server. 2) The ports and PKGNG system is beyond amazing. 3) The organization is more amazing. Everything is incredibly intuitive. I love the customization, flexability and organization of BSD. 4) I didn't care until rather recently, but anything that lets me rely less and less on GNU and the GPL is a bonus. Given this, I commend everyone who has put hundreds of hours of work into making BSD a desktop system. Rather than suggest that BSD stays merely a server OS, why not pose these issues as problems or milestones. Perhaps sound has some drawbacks, but when the day arrives when it is up to par, I can almost guarantee if the BSD ideals remain the same that it'll be so much easier and cleaner to use than pulse/alsa, etc. Eitan Adler ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Call for testers: SNMPv3 support for bsnmpd(1)
Thank Harti. Tony -Original Message- From: Hartmut Brandt [mailto:hartmut.bra...@dlr.de] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 2:06 AM To: Marciano, Anthony Cc: syr...@freebsd.org; Bjoern A. Zeeb; freebsd-current@freebsd.org; tomaro...@gmail.com Subject: RE: Call for testers: SNMPv3 support for bsnmpd(1) On Mon, 31 Mar 2014, Marciano, Anthony wrote: MACurrently, we are just looking to monitor standard objects such as MAinterfaces and send traps accordingly. Would it be possible to MAprovide a trap example of what needs to be added to the snmpd.config MAfile to monitor an object and have it sent via V3? MA MAI've searched for this information and read through various RFCs but MAhave not discovered any bsnmpd specific trap syntax and/or examples. Well, bsnmp can send only the standard traps currently. This is configured via the begemotTrapSinkTable (/usr/share/snmp/mibs/BEGEMOT-SNMPD.txt). Each row in the table is a trap target and all traps are sent to all targets in the table. I don't know, how this interacts with v3, though. harti ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it’s just an elaborate April Fool’s joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool’s joke, so I’m willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) I’ll choose to be serious and say what I’m about to say in spite of the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose “the power to serve” as FreeBSD’s first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS and it’s easy to defend its role in the server room. It’s also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be “BSD on the desktop” (and while they share some common technologies, it’s increasingly a stretch to say that), it’s just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons: 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list just goes on and on. It’s a lot of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. 2. Multimedia. A real end-user’s desktop is basically one big UI for watching things, listening to things, and running apps. A decent audio / video subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that has always been really weak - entire engineering teams can spend years working on codecs, performance optimizations, low and guaranteed latency support for audio I/O, etc. What’s worse, the bar is only being raised. You want to be part of the next wave of folks who can author and edit content for the new 4K video standard? Not on FreeBSD or Linux, you’re not. 3. Applications. A desktop without real and useful applications is not a desktop, it’s just an empty display surface. Sure, there are users out there who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser and maybe a calendaring app, but those users are also arguably even better candidates for Chrome or other simplified environments where all of that simply happens in a fancy web browser and you get things like “software updates” and cloud integration essentially for free since it’s all just one cohesive picture there. The ability to solve those user’s needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the web application delivery platforms. For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit videos or even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually published sometime in the last year, they’ll use a real desktop OS and won't even bother looking at one of the free ones because guess what, the free ones just can’t do those things, or do them badly enough that their users feel like they’re perpetually living in a kind of self-selected ghetto. Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the floor in a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you’re young, but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have a real bed in a real house! Those are just three reasons. There are lots more, not least of which among them is the fact that it’s damn hard even just to *create* significant applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux provide. You have to stitch together some Frankenstein collection of libraries out of ports (or linux packages) and then hope the whole pile of multi-“vendor bits will sort of work together, which of course they rarely do because they
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Mon, 2014-03-31 at 22:46 -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: but you won't be able to use your graphics card? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Why even bother? Its over, just embrace the future and be like this happy Mac user: http://people.freebsd.org/~sbruno/happy_desktop_user.jpg sean ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: ZFS panic in -CURRENT
On Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:41:45 +0300 Andriy Gapon a...@freebsd.org wrote: on 01/04/2014 02:22 R. Tyler Croy said the following: Bumping this with more details On Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:53:32 -0700 R Tyler Croy ty...@monkeypox.org wrote: Apologies for the rough format here, I had to take a picture of this failure because I didn't know what else to do. http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentdero/13469355463/ I'm building off of the GitHub freebsd.git mirror here, and the latest commit in the tree is neel@'s Add an ioctl to suspend.. My dmesg/pciconf are here: https://gist.github.com/rtyler/1faa854dff7c4396d9e8 As linked before, the dmesg and `pciconf -lv` output can be found here: https://gist.github.com/rtyler/1faa854dff7c4396d9e8 Also in addition to the photo from before of the panic, here's another reproduction photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/agentdero/13472248423/ Are you or have you even been running with any ZFS-related kernel patches? Negative, I've never run any specific ZFS patches on this machine (or any machine for that matter!) One other unique clue might be that I'm running with an encrypted zpool, other than that, nothing fancy here. - R. Tyler Croy -- Code: https://github.com/rtyler Chatter: https://twitter.com/agentdero % gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key 3F51E16F -- ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: UDP Lite support
On Monday, March 31, 2014 10:20:53 pm Kevin Lo wrote: On 2014/03/28 00:21, John Baldwin wrote: On Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:32:16 am Kevin Lo wrote: Are you interested in working on these and report back? The revised patch is available at: http://people.freebsd.org/~kevlo/udplite.diff Thank you for your suggestions. A few suggestions: - I would just drop the INP lock and return EOPNOTSUPP directly rather than using goto's to 'bad_setoptname' and 'bad_getoptname' so the UDP-lite options are self-contained. Fixed. Thanks. - I'm not a super big fan of all the udp_common_* macros only because I think it obfuscates things. At the very least, please move these things out of the header and into udp_usrreq.c so they are closer to the implementation. I would even suggest making them inline functions instead of macros. Okay, I removed two udp_common_* macros. I also renamed udp_common_init() to udp_udplite_init() and moved it into udp_usrreq.c. Using a macro here to follow the style used in SCTP (sctp_os_bsd.h). Here's a third version of the udp-lite patch: http://people.freebsd.org/~kevlo/udplite.diff Ok, I would say that udp_common_init() is actually a better name if you keep the macro (which I think is fine) rather than udp_udplite_init() as the macro is not specific to UDP Lite. However, thanks for moving the macros out of the header. Thank you John. glebius@ suggests we don't need to have two absolutely equal uma zones since most systems don't run UDP-Lite. If practice shows that a differentiation at zone level between UDP and UDP-Lite PCBs is important, then it could be done later. Ok. I do think this is probably cleaner as well and almost suggested it myself. The only caveat to this is that it means UDP and UDP Lite sockets share the same resource limit. That is probably fine in practice. I think the current patch looks good. -- John Baldwin ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
-Original Message- From: Eitan Adler [mailto:li...@eitanadler.com] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 10:47 PM To: hack...@freebsd.org; curr...@freebsd.org; freebsd- advoc...@freebsd.org Subject: Leaving the Desktop Market Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: but you won't be able to use your graphics card? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Eitan, While I understand your frustration, VICOR is using FreeBSD as a Desktop since FreeBSD 2.2. We don't use sound and we are fine relying on vesa. While I understand that the things you listed are actual short-comings for normal Desktop users, I think it's the wrong decision to say that we should be backing out *any* functionality that would make the Desktop any more difficult to produce. As it stands, it would take me weeks just to count the number of workstations that are running a GUI, rely on one of the existing video drivers (nv, radeon, mach64, etc.) and use lots of Desktop ports. -- Devin _ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
-Original Message- From: Lars Engels [mailto:lars.eng...@0x20.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:41 AM To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Eitan Adler; hack...@freebsd.org; curr...@freebsd.org; freebsd- advoc...@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the [snip] I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? -- Devin _ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
You got me for a moment :) On a serious note... OpenBSD is reportedly having some success on a desktop- is using -CURRENT on dev's desktop religiously (so I've heard) something related? (e.g. working sound out of the box) I have sound with www/firefox without pulseaudio, albeit firefox 28 segfaults from time to time (see gecko@ if really interested). My desktop experience from few years on -CURRENT/STABLE- with stable/sane configuration that's working it's a bliss, however when something goes awry... Few hours of frustration almost guaranteed. And sometimes it goes that way due to some update unfortunately. -- View this message in context: http://freebsd.1045724.n5.nabble.com/Leaving-the-Desktop-Market-tp5899597p5899727.html Sent from the freebsd-current mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Mon, March 31, 2014 10:46 pm, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: itâs almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely itâs that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: but you won't be able to use your graphics card? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Eitan Adler ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Hi, I don't understand the gripe about sound. OSS works well. If you install the verson in ports, audio/oss, you get a more elaborate set of tools. (you can use the tools with the OSS drivers in base, its possible to remove the base OSS system and *only* use the updated OSS system however there are some caveats that may cause serious issues with a 'user', if you don't want to get your hands dirty don't mess with that.) Anyhow, last I went through a few month period of experimenting with sound and picked up a bunch of hardware on ebay, different cards from various vendors, ie asus, creative, etc. Its possible and not too difficult to have four or five cards on the machine and use them simultaneously. I didn't notice any problem switching from speakers to headphones while music is playing. Maybe this works on other operating systems, i haven't tried. The thing about sound, the card is a digital-to-analog converter, and vice-versa. It uses PCM data. (PCM was actually first 'invented' in the 1800's - no fools joke). Digital audio/Sound has never really gotten better, it has only gotten cheaper. -- Waitman Gobble San Jose California USA +1.510-830-7975 ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. Ha, ha, ha. Reminds me of the long running 04-01 gag stating that kernel.org ran on FreeBSD. As to Leaving the Desktop Market; +1. OK by me. OTOH The following /will/ give you everything you /claim/ isn't /currently/ possible. x11/xorg-minimal x11-wm/xfce4 audio/aquqlung multimedia/vlc The above list also gives you the ability to switch output(s) on the fly (via mixer). exotic video card? emulators/linux_base-f10 x11/nvidia-driver --Chris P.S. Happy April fools to you, too. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: but you won't be able to use your graphics card? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Eitan Adler ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Fwd: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Sorry, should have replied to everybody ;) Cheers -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Date: Tuesday 01 April 2014, 17:34:28 From: Stefan Wendler stefan.wend...@tngtech.com To: freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org Hi, On Monday 31 March 2014 22:46:45 Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. I don't know the posts you are talking about. I'm using FreeBSD as a server since Version 7. Since FreeBSD 9 I'm also using it as main notebook OS. With everything you can imagine: sound, flash, 3D gfx, eve online via wine rocks, printing, scanning, you name it. Yes, FreeBSD has some rough edges. But after over 18 years of Linux I can say, Linux has enough rough edges and depending on the current needs I more than freaked out once with each distro. And I still am freaking out on a daily basis as a *nix admin when one of the Linux's shows their true face. Like undocumented autoupgrading that messes up your whole ovirt-cluster. I never had that with a BSD. But what there is to learn is, I only ever had problems with consumer/cheap hardware. Most Linux Distros suck at least one way. For me the only Distro that really made me happy for over 14 years was Gentoo. In a way FreeBSD is similar but much much cleaner and sorted. It may be that FreeBSD is not for you and you are more the Linux Mint/*buntu user. But it would be a nightmare for me, if the good FreeBSD folks would stop supporting X-stuff. I even give to the FreeBSD Foundation on a monthly basis with the wish to further support the desktop. FreeBSD is quite simple once you get the hang of it. But you have to be the person that likes to dig in sometimes. Currently it runs as smooth as butter here. When learning to use Gentoo for example I had not only one sleepless night where I had to fix broken libc upgrades without the ability to google that. But this is how we learn. With FreeBSD you have at least a running base system even if you mess up big time. Delete /usr/local/* but keep your /usr/local/etc and start over ... try that with Linux. No chance! I can go on here ;) The big lag of FreeBSD is indeed vendor support. But it won't get better if we drop support for stuff. I'm sorry FreeBSD is such an upsetting experience for you. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? ... PCBSD stands out in that it is a really nice experience and people from the Linux world are asking about it and it just plain works mostly out of the box like a ubuntu or mint does, on hardware that is not no-name. And there is always GhostBSD (http://www.ghostbsd.org/) ... so there are two flavours already ;) The base system is still FreeBSD but I don't think that this is a problem. Ever fu**d around with getting the right packages in the right versions of some tools for example SuSE, CentOS, Debian, or whatever without freaking out? The different approaches in packaging systems on Linux is a mess as well. PCBSD is not for me though. But not that is isn't working but it is not for me as a BSD user as Ubuntu never was for me as a Linux/Gentoo user. Linux is not the silver bullet. And in every Linux forum there are always people that complain about why Linux or this or that distro sucks and why they move on. And even Linux wouldn't be what it is without the various BSDs. Cheers, Stefan P.S. One thing they could upgrade though is the linuxulator. ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org - ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Sean Bruno sean...@yahoo-inc.com wrote: Why even bother? Its over, just embrace the future and be like this happy Mac user: http://people.freebsd.org/~sbruno/happy_desktop_user.jpg I have Macs at work (typing on one now), and a mac at home. I like them. I recently installed FreeBSD 10 on an Intel i5 NUC. 16GB ram, and a 120GB m-SATA SSD. I put a nice keyboard and an old 19” Dell monitor on it, used vidconsole to make the screen green on black, and a decent resolution. It’s just like being back in the 80s, when Unix had a desktop market, only much, much faster. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 2014-04-01 03:11, Jordan Hubbard wrote: 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list just goes on and on. It’s a lot of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. There is some advantage to focusing on power in the Server and Embedded space. Saving power in a rack full of machines would be a very big win, and it could be especially important in embedded. As Jordan mentions, a kernel scheduler that is aware of power management could do big things here. It may also be able to provide a performance boost, Intel's TurboBoost feature is controlled via power management, and only lights off under specific circumstances, unlocking that extra performance at key times may also be a big win. - Jordan ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Allan Jude signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
-Original Message- From: owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Randi Harper You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are going to step up and say Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! It's totally viable! Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a small company. Many companies combined create a market. Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? I'm no marketing expert or anything, but it would seem that there is some kind of market out there that isn't being catered to. I may be a masochist, but I refuse to have to pay Apples prices for their hardware. They just seem insane to me. If they ever decided to sell OS X for non-Apple hardware I might use it. And just for the record I've been using FreeBSD as an exclusive home desktop since 1999. At work now so however Outlook mangles this is my fault :) Rod Person Programmer (412)454-2616 Just because it can been done, does not mean it should be done. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 07:52:13AM -0700, dte...@freebsd.org wrote: -Original Message- From: Lars Engels [mailto:lars.eng...@0x20.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:41 AM To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Eitan Adler; hack...@freebsd.org; curr...@freebsd.org; freebsd- advoc...@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the [snip] I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) pgpSJwTsqAsgD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Mon, March 31, 2014 10:46 pm, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled Story of a Laptop User and Story of a Desktop User. For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: itâ�s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely itâ�s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: but you won't be able to use your graphics card? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Eitan Adler ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Hi, I don't understand the gripe about sound. OSS works well. If you install the verson in ports, audio/oss, you get a more elaborate set of tools. ---8--- The thing about sound, the card is a digital-to-analog converter, and vice-versa. It uses PCM data. (PCM was actually first 'invented' in the 1800's - no fools joke). Digital audio/Sound has never really gotten better, it has only gotten cheaper. WOW. That an interesting bit of historical information. Thanks for sharing it! --Chris -- Waitman Gobble San Jose California USA +1.510-830-7975 ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard j...@mail.turbofuzz.com wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose the power to serve as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be BSD on the desktop (and while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons: As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing pretty well. I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P Cheers, -matt ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander m...@ixsystems.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard j...@mail.turbofuzz.com wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose the power to serve as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be BSD on the desktop (and while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons: As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing pretty well. I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! Seeing this I could not resist: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P Let them prosper! Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than the other alternatives. Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And native flash, although I say flash, no thank you Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of linux clients ;) I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change. Cheers Andreas Cheers, -matt ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi all, I have been a member of the FreeBSD hackers mailing list for about a year.5 now and I must say that I was looking forward to this year's 4/1 email. Last year, I didn't even realize that the discussion of promoting i386 as a tier 1 architecture was a joke until someone blatantly mentioned in... To address the actual content of this thread, personally, I absolutely love the FreeBSD os and the community that supports it. However, even as a third year computer engineering student, I still have not overcome the overhead that comes with becoming familiar with the UNIX environment. Of course, that is mostly attributed to my laziness and my unwillingness to sit through an entire reading of documentation... To share an observation, I am a teaching assistant for a freshman C programming class and I recently set up three FreeBSD servers, one for each section, where students could learn to develop C programs in an actual UNIX environment. Here is the lecture that I wrote up to help them learn the basics: http://vecr.ece.villanova.edu/bk/fc/labs/docs/ece1620-l2unix.pdf. I led the first section yesterday and I have to say that it was an utter disaster. Only about 1/8th of the class showed even an ounce of interest in this stuff (as it was something extra and not required for the course) and I really f'ed up by trying to teach them how to use vi... Long live the BSD community! On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander m...@ixsystems.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard j...@mail.turbofuzz.com wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose the power to serve as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be BSD on the desktop (and while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons: As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing pretty well. I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! Seeing this I could not resist: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P Let them prosper! Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than the other alternatives. Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And native flash, although I say flash, no thank you Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of linux clients ;) I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both his home server as
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, April 1, 2014 11:59 am, Andreas Nilsson wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander m...@ixsystems.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard j...@mail.turbofuzz.com wrote: On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose the power to serve as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be BSD on the desktop (and while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons: As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing pretty well. I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! Seeing this I could not resist: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P Let them prosper! Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than the other alternatives. Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And native flash, although I say flash, no thank you Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of linux clients ;) I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change. Cheers Andreas Cheers, -matt ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org re pulseaudio: I've had luck reading the raw PCM data from the /dev/dsp* devices, storing in postgres (bytea), then later playing back to /dev/dsp.. 'streaming' to another system (maybe pgsql as el intermedio?) would be pretty simple. In this scenario there is no Alsa requirement, which works for me :) -- Waitman Gobble San Jose California USA +1.510-830-7975 ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
-Original Message- From: owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Randi Harper You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are going to step up and say Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! It's totally viable! Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a small company. Many companies combined create a market. Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? I'm no marketing expert or anything, but it would seem that there is some kind of market out there that isn't being catered to. I may be a masochist, but I refuse to have to pay Apples prices for their hardware. They just seem insane to me. If they ever decided to sell OS X for non-Apple hardware I might use it. OK. Now that I opened my big fat mouth, and made the mistake of involving myself earlier in this post before finishing my first of coffee. I'm already committed, so here goes... Can we take a look at advocacy for a moment? What defines it exactly? Is there better advocacy than another? What's the best advocacy? Is it contributing more $$ to the foundation? Is it contributing lines of code to the project? Is it putting a textual, or graphical link the Power to Serve on your web page? Is it telling everyone you know about how great FreeBSD is? I don't know. But just the other day, as I struggled with the [apparent] direction(s) FreeBSD was taking in the past few months. I began to reflect on the ~25yrs. of working with the code, and then (*)BSD itself. I realized that I spent no less than 75% of my waking hours in front of the tty. Almost all of which, was in some way related to FreeBSD. Much of it, was dedicated to installs. I calculate to this day, I have performed some 36,000 installs. At least 28,000 still running. Then it occurred to me; if that isn't the BEST form of advocacy, I don't know what is. Really. Think about it. So say what you will. Condemn, or patronize the misfits of society, the geeks, or geeky people. But know this; if it weren't for them, FreeBSD wouldn't be but some pie-in-the-sky ideal/dream. In some far away thought, or dream. For the record; I /don't/ live in my basement. I /do/ take showers. I own my home outright (2nd one, for the record). What's more, my current one was a complete renovation, which I performed myself. Masochistic? Maybe, but somebody has to pay the price, so others can reap the luxury. No? --Chris out... And just for the record I've been using FreeBSD as an exclusive home desktop since 1999. At work now so however Outlook mangles this is my fault :) Rod Person Programmer (412)454-2616 Just because it can been done, does not mean it should be done. ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 07:43:02PM +0200, Lars Engels escribió: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the [snip] I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) +1 matthias (FreeBSD since 2.2.5 and sending this from an EeePC 900, netbook, UMTS connected, KDE4 desktop, sound, webcam, vim, mutt, sendmail, ...) -- Sent from my FreeBSD netbook Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ f: +49-170-4527211 UNIX since V7 on PDP-11, UNIX on mainframe since ESER 1055 (IBM /370) UNIX on x86 since SVR4.2 UnixWare 2.1.2, FreeBSD since 2.2.5 ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Re: UDP Lite support
Hi! On 31 March 2014 19:20, Kevin Lo ke...@freebsd.org wrote: Thank you John. glebius@ suggests we don't need to have two absolutely equal uma zones since most systems don't run UDP-Lite. If practice shows that a differentiation at zone level between UDP and UDP-Lite PCBs is important, then it could be done later. Following up with a fourth version of the udp-lite patch. http://people.freebsd.org/~kevlo/udplite.diff On top of the previous versions, this: - removes a uma zone for udp-lite - udp_common_ctlinput() belongs under #ifdef INET - removes sysctl nodes for udp-lite. - bumps version and adds my copyright. I've just briefly review this. I recommend turning the places where you do this: + pcbinfo = (pr == IPPROTO_UDP) ? V_udbinfo : V_ulitecbinfo; .. into some inline function which returns the correct pcbinfo based on what 'pr' is. That way if someone wants to add another derivative UDP handler they won't have to go and change those conditionals to yet another set of nested conditionals. Same for: + pcblist = (pr == IPPROTO_UDP) ? V_udb : V_ulitecb; Other than that, it looks good. -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 04/01/2014 07:46, dte...@freebsd.org wrote: Eitan, While I understand your frustration, VICOR is using FreeBSD as a Desktop since FreeBSD 2.2. We don't use sound and we are fine relying on vesa. While I understand that the things you listed are actual short-comings for normal Desktop users, I think it's the wrong decision to say that we should be backing out *any* functionality that would make the Desktop any more difficult to produce. As it stands, it would take me weeks just to count the number of workstations that are running a GUI, rely on one of the existing video drivers (nv, radeon, mach64, etc.) and use lots of Desktop ports. I have three FreeBSD desktops (one at work, one at home-office, and one for the usual messing around). They're all running 9.2, with Windows for Unix(TM)...uh, I mean KDE v4.12.3 as the GUI. Yes, I actually like KDE. I also have a machine at home running Debian Wheezy, also with KDE, and I have 2-3 mac devices that actually run MacOS (I have a few mac minis that run Free- and OpenBSD). The minis work exceptionally well as FreeBSD workstations. Each of the FreeBSD systems I have is my go-to workstation--it's where I do most of my work. Only if I can't do something (or don't want to run it on FreeBSD--e.g. Flash), do I use the Mac. The Debian box I just use for messing around--nothing serious. My home FreeBSD workstation has perfect sound, excellent graphics (nvidia), and I can even watch a lot of video using Firefox, since video is increasingly becoming HTML5-based. For me it just works. The whole combination that makes up my environment can be challenging to keep up-to-date, but it's getting a lot easier with pkgng and portmaster. I would hate to see this stuff, which I find very useful, and helps me both at work and home, to be ripped out of the OS. I have been using FreeBSD on the desktop since 1997, when I had two workstations on my desk (FreeBSD and RedHat) and I let them duke it out to see who would win. FreeBSD won then, and even though I continue to keep a Linux desktop around for fun, FreeBSD still wins on the basis of usability, stability, security, etc. michael PS. My current KDE wallpaper for my work office machine is the Windows XP green hillside with blue sky background. It's giving people fits here. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 07:43:02PM +0200, Lars Engels escribió: That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the [snip] I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) +1 matthias (FreeBSD since 2.2.5 and sending this from an EeePC 900, netbook, UMTS connected, KDE4 desktop, sound, webcam, vim, mutt, sendmail, ...) FreeBSD desktop since 3.3 (makes me a newbie!) I really dislike pulseaudio and have managed to live without it. Firefox works fine without it. Unfortunately they dropped OSS support a while go, so I now must use alsa, but it works well and without the pain of dealing with pulseaudio, a solution in search of a problem it I ever saw one. Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem getting my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The setup is a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and set up stuff once. It just works. If you want my example set-up, I can post it somewhere or you can look in the archives for it as I have posted it in the past. I used exmh with emacs for years, but no when work stopped allowing private SMTP systems, I switched to Thunderbird. Not great, but satisfactory. I must use a bit of emulation but it works. (E.g. Flash, alsa) I can run what I need and have been happy to avoid the issues Windows users have to deal with (Can you day Windows 8 or Metro?) Power is an issue and I find the current defaults suck. Read mav's article on the subject on the wiki. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired E-mail: rkober...@gmail.com ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
In article 533b3903.7030...@rancid.berkeley.edu, mich...@rancid.berkeley.edu writes: I have been using FreeBSD on the desktop since 1997, Hmmm. I'm a bit biased here, but I've been using FreeBSD on the desktop since, well, before it was called FreeBSD. It's still my primary platform for nearly everything (except photo management, which drove me to a Mac laptop so I could run Lightroom, and those few remaining Web sites that still bury all their content inside Flash). But let's be clear that different people have different requirements for a desktop. My requirements are relatively simple: twm, xterm, XEmacs, vlc, LaTeX, xpdf, a Jabber client (psi), $VCS_OF_CHOICE, gnucash, and at least two Web browsers (I use Opera for most stuff and Firefox for promiscuous-mode browsing). Once in a while, I even need to run a remote X application over an SSH tunnel. A Web server (Apache) and a mail server with local delivery and spam filtering (sendmail+spamass-milter+crm114) round out the requirements. I do not ever need or even want translucent windows, Zeroconf, 3-D games, or nonlinear video editing. Audio playback only matters to the extent that it's smooth and the settings stick. I write documents and code; my desktop is a productivity tool, not a gaming platform, and it performs that function quite well, thank you very much. Other people have rather different requirements, and that's OK. But let's please not break the applications for which FreeBSD is very good now (and has actually gotten substantially better). -GAWollman ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: [CFT] ASLR and PIE on amd64
On 3/31/14, Shawn Webb latt...@gmail.com wrote: On Mar 31, 2014 02:07 AM +0200, Oliver Pinter wrote: On 3/22/14, Shawn Webb latt...@gmail.com wrote: Hey All, First off, I hope that even as a non-committer, it's okay that I post a call for testing. If not, please excuse my newbishness in this process. This is my first time submitting a major patch upstream to FreeBSD. Over the past few months, I've had the opportunity and pleasure to enhance existing patches to FreeBSD that implement a common exploit mitigation technology called Address Space Layout Randomization (ASLR) along with support for Position Independent Executables (PIE). ASLR+PIE has been a long-requested feature by many people I've met on IRC. I've submitted my patch to PR kernel/181497. I'm currently in the process of adding PIE support to certain high-visibility applications in base (mainly network daemons). I've added a make.conf knob that's default to enabled (WITH_PIE=1). An application has to also explicitly support PIE as well by defining CAN_PIE in the Makefile prior to including bsd.prog.mk. After I get a decent amount of applications enabled with PIE support, I'll submit one last patch. The following sysctl's can be set with a kernel compiled with the PAX_ASLR option: security.pax.aslr.status: 1 security.pax.aslr.debug: 0 security.pax.aslr.mmap_len: 16 security.pax.aslr.stack_len: 12 security.pax.aslr.exec_len: 12 The security.pax.aslr.status sysctl enables and disables the ASLR system as a whole. The debug sysctl gives debugging output. The mmap_len sysctl tells the ASLR system how many bits to randomize with mmap() is called. The stack_len sysctl tells the ASLR system how many bits to randomize in the stack. The exec_len sysctl tells the ASLR system how many bits to randomize the execbase (this controls PIE). These sysctls can be set as a per-jail basis. If you have an application which doesn't support ASLR, yet you want ASLR enabled for everything else, you can simply place that misbehaving application in a jail with only that jail's ASLR settings turned off. Please let me know how your testing goes. I'm giving a presentation at BSDCan regarding this. If you want to keep tabs on my bleeding-edge development process, please follow my progress on GitHub: https://github.com/lattera/freebsd (branch: soldierx/lattera/aslr). Thank you very much, Hi! Please apply this patch. This fixed an issue with tunables. Patch merged successfully into my GitHub repo. Fixed with commit d2c0813. I'll include it in my next patch submission upstream when I submit my PIE work. Thanks! please see the attached patch, compile and boot tested on amd64 0001-PAX-ASLR-remove-dirty-hack-to-determine-which-pax_in.patch Description: Binary data ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 1 April 2014 15:40, Garrett Wollman woll...@hergotha.csail.mit.edu wrote: In article 533b3903.7030...@rancid.berkeley.edu, mich...@rancid.berkeley.edu writes: I have been using FreeBSD on the desktop since 1997, Hmmm. I'm a bit biased here, but I've been using FreeBSD on the desktop since, well, before it was called FreeBSD. It's still my primary platform for nearly everything (except photo management, which drove me to a Mac laptop so I could run Lightroom, and those few remaining Web sites that still bury all their content inside Flash). But let's be clear that different people have different requirements for a desktop. My requirements are relatively simple: twm, xterm, XEmacs, vlc, LaTeX, xpdf, a Jabber client (psi), $VCS_OF_CHOICE, gnucash, and at least two Web browsers (I use Opera for most stuff and Firefox for promiscuous-mode browsing). Once in a while, I even need to run a remote X application over an SSH tunnel. A Web server (Apache) and a mail server with local delivery and spam filtering (sendmail+spamass-milter+crm114) round out the requirements. I do not ever need or even want translucent windows, Zeroconf, 3-D games, or nonlinear video editing. Audio playback only matters to the extent that it's smooth and the settings stick. I write documents and code; my desktop is a productivity tool, not a gaming platform, and it performs that function quite well, thank you very much. Other people have rather different requirements, and that's OK. But let's please not break the applications for which FreeBSD is very good now (and has actually gotten substantially better). The problem (among many) is that you don't have those requirements but the Xorg desktop developers and the graphics driver / layer developers have those requirements and they're sure sticking to them. So, you're going to end up getting 3D/hardware accelerated graphics and crazy audio integration requirements for your web browsers soon, which drag in libdri_chipset.so and all of the bugs that keep popping up with that. It's no longer xorg just speaks to the graphics chip. -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
kevent has bug?
Hi,
I think, kevent() has a bug.
I tested sample programs by attached sources.
This sample tests about EVFILT_SIGNAL.
I build sample programs by the following commands.
% gcc -O2 -o child child.c
% gcc -O2 -o parent parent.c
The expected result is the following.
% ./parent
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
OK
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
OK
But, sometimes the result was the following.
% ./parent
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
This result means the number of times the signal has occured was
incorrect.
In case of EVFILT_SIGNAL, according to `man kevent', `data' retuns the
number of times the signal has occurred since the last call to
kevent(). This `data' is recorded by filt_signal() (This is f_event in
struct filterops).
The system call kevent()'s events are processed by kqueue_scan() in
kern_event.c. In kqueue_scan(), kn-kn_fop-f_event() is allways
called after KN_INFLUX is set to kn-kn_status.
On the other hand, kernel events are occured by knote() in
kern_event.c. (In EVFILT_SIGNAL, knote() is called from tdsendsignal()
in kern_sig.c.) In knote(), kn-kn_fop-f_event() is called only when
KN_INFLUX is not set in kn-kn_status.
In race condition between kqueue_scan() and knote(),
kn-kn_fop-f_event() from knote() may not be called, I think.
In knote(), because the context holds knlist's lock, the context can
not sleep. So, KN_INFLUX should not be set on calling
kn-kn_fop-f_event() in kqueue_scan(), I think.
What do you think about this issue?
Best regards,
Kohji Okuno
#include sys/types.h
#include stdlib.h
#include unistd.h
#include stdio.h
int
main()
{
sleep(1);
exit(0);
}
#include sys/types.h
#include sys/wait.h
#include sys/event.h
#include sys/time.h
#include stdlib.h
#include stdio.h
#include unistd.h
#include signal.h
#define NUM_CHILDREN20
int
main()
{
int i;
pid_t pid;
char *argv[2] = {child, NULL};
struct kevent kev;
int kqfd = kqueue();
int count;
int err;
int status;
EV_SET(kev, SIGCHLD, EVFILT_SIGNAL, EV_ADD, 0, 0, 0);
kevent(kqfd, kev, 1, NULL, 0, NULL);
while (1) {
count = 0;
for (i = 0; i NUM_CHILDREN; i++) {
pid = fork();
if (pid == 0) {
execve(./child, argv, NULL);
}
}
while (1) {
err = kevent(kqfd, NULL, 0, kev, 1, NULL);
if (err 0 kev.ident == SIGCHLD) {
for (i = 0; i kev.data; i++) {
pid = waitpid(-1, status, WNOHANG);
if (pid 0) {
count++;
printf(%d , count);
fflush(stdout);
if (count == NUM_CHILDREN) {
printf(\nOK\n);
goto next;
}
}
}
}
}
next:
;
}
exit(0);
}
___
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Re: UDP Lite support
On 2014/04/02 04:53, Adrian Chadd wrote: Hi! Hi Adrian, On 31 March 2014 19:20, Kevin Lo ke...@freebsd.org wrote: Thank you John. glebius@ suggests we don't need to have two absolutely equal uma zones since most systems don't run UDP-Lite. If practice shows that a differentiation at zone level between UDP and UDP-Lite PCBs is important, then it could be done later. Following up with a fourth version of the udp-lite patch. http://people.freebsd.org/~kevlo/udplite.diff On top of the previous versions, this: - removes a uma zone for udp-lite - udp_common_ctlinput() belongs under #ifdef INET - removes sysctl nodes for udp-lite. - bumps version and adds my copyright. I've just briefly review this. I recommend turning the places where you do this: + pcbinfo = (pr == IPPROTO_UDP) ? V_udbinfo : V_ulitecbinfo; .. into some inline function which returns the correct pcbinfo based on what 'pr' is. That way if someone wants to add another derivative UDP handler they won't have to go and change those conditionals to yet another set of nested conditionals. Same for: + pcblist = (pr == IPPROTO_UDP) ? V_udb : V_ulitecb; Other than that, it looks good. Thanks for the review. I added two inline functions get_inpcbinfo() and get_pcblist() which return the correct pcbinfo and pcblist respectively. The current version of the patch is in the same location, thanks. -a Kevin ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
