Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
We argue about this a lot. Nobody has, as yet, ever done the work to make "bindist" a meta-package which depends (perhaps selectively) on sub-packages like groff, sendmail, gcc, et al. to achieve the required state of "bundling by default but not by requirement" in FreeBSD. This is despite the fact that we've even gotten to the level of discussing "how it should look" many many times, and I even believe a few people volunteered to do the work the last few times this came up. They subsequently disappeared into the same black hole which swallows so many prospective volunteers, it seems, and all that was left to mark the event was the echos of thread in the mail archives. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
At 11:21 PM -0700 2000/4/12, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: They subsequently disappeared into the same black hole which swallows so many prospective volunteers, it seems, and all that was left to mark the event was the echos of thread in the mail archives. :-) Sorry, my fault. I shouldn't have gotten this mess going again. ;-( -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy == Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED]|| Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Joe Greco wrote: In other words, if we're going to be replacing sendmail with an alternative MTA, I'd prefer postfix over qmail, and I believe I can marshall some pretty strong arguments for that position. Perhaps it's time to revisit something I proposed several years ago. Remove Sendmail from the base system - or, at least, make it a "package" that is removable with the package management tool. Then be able to add another mailer (or an updated Sendmail) in its place. Ideally, Sendmail would be available as a package for installation as part of the base system, just like games or info or proflibs. I would love to see this happen with other components of the system as well, such as BIND. While it is fantastic that FreeBSD comes out of the box so fully functional, it does make it a bit of a pain for those of us who intend to build servers - we have to disable the original before installing a new package. :-/ I always keep hearing the same line. You guys *know* perfectly well how to do it, and it's not a big thing to you, you even admit it's only "a bit of a pain". To most of the rest of the world, it's a huge thing, and they don't have the least clue how to do it. If you guys want so desperately to make things 1% easier, why have I never seen anyone bring out a parallel "sparse" FreeBSD? It wouldnt' be a large thing to do, and you who keep on asking for it, you know that very well. Just have a reasonable bit of compassion for everyone else. That's not to say the huge hurt it would do to FreeBSD to all reviewers and the public at large, just to save you "a bit of a pain". Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Joe Greco wrote: In other words, if we're going to be replacing sendmail with an alternative MTA, I'd prefer postfix over qmail, and I believe I can marshall some pretty strong arguments for that position. Perhaps it's time to revisit something I proposed several years ago. Remove Sendmail from the base system - or, at least, make it a "package" that is removable with the package management tool. Then be able to add another mailer (or an updated Sendmail) in its place. Ideally, Sendmail would be available as a package for installation as part of the base system, just like games or info or proflibs. I would love to see this happen with other components of the system as well, such as BIND. While it is fantastic that FreeBSD comes out of the box so fully functional, it does make it a bit of a pain for those of us who intend to build servers - we have to disable the original before installing a new package. :-/ I always keep hearing the same line. You guys *know* perfectly well how to do it, and it's not a big thing to you, you even admit it's only "a bit of a pain". To most of the rest of the world, it's a huge thing, and they don't have the least clue how to do it. If you guys want so desperately to make things 1% easier, why have I never seen anyone bring out a parallel "sparse" FreeBSD? It wouldnt' be a large thing to do, and you who keep on asking for it, you know that very well. Just have a reasonable bit of compassion for everyone else. That's not to say the huge hurt it would do to FreeBSD to all reviewers and the public at large, just to save you "a bit of a pain". Uh, Chuck, can you tell me how many BIND and Sendmail advisories there have been in the last five years? Wouldn't it be nice if we could just tell newbies, "hey, yeah, that Sendmail has a known security issue, pkg_delete it and then add this new one here". Or would you prefer to explain to someone who doesn't "have the least clue how to do it" how to upgrade BIND and Sendmail to the latest? The concept is beneficial from _many_ angles, not just the one I gave. Despite my tendency to promote the traditional BSD distribution style, that does not mean that I feel that everything in FreeBSD should arrive as it did on the 4.4BSD tape. I think that the ability to be able to select modules for inclusion or exclusion would be particularly useful. ... Joe --- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Joe Greco wrote: Uh, Chuck, can you tell me how many BIND and Sendmail advisories there have been in the last five years? Wouldn't it be nice if we could just tell newbies, "hey, yeah, that Sendmail has a known security issue, pkg_delete it and then add this new one here". Or would you prefer to explain to someone who doesn't "have the least clue how to do it" how to upgrade BIND and Sendmail to the latest? The concept is beneficial from _many_ angles, not just the one I gave. Despite my tendency to promote the traditional BSD distribution style, that does not mean that I feel that everything in FreeBSD should arrive as it did on the 4.4BSD tape. I think that the ability to be able to select modules for inclusion or exclusion would be particularly useful. If you want to pick another one and by default install that, fine. If you want to force new users to read all about mailers just to get their first mail working, no, that's just too much, Joe, you're asking too much of folks. If you've got a bone to pick with sendmail, that's ok, but you have to pick a better one. If you can't decide on the best one, then how in the heck do you expect Joe Public to do better? ALWAYS provide sensible default values, not a bunch of expert questions. Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Joe Greco wrote: Uh, Chuck, can you tell me how many BIND and Sendmail advisories there have been in the last five years? Wouldn't it be nice if we could just tell newbies, "hey, yeah, that Sendmail has a known security issue, pkg_delete it and then add this new one here". Or would you prefer to explain to someone who doesn't "have the least clue how to do it" how to upgrade BIND and Sendmail to the latest? The concept is beneficial from _many_ angles, not just the one I gave. Despite my tendency to promote the traditional BSD distribution style, that does not mean that I feel that everything in FreeBSD should arrive as it did on the 4.4BSD tape. I think that the ability to be able to select modules for inclusion or exclusion would be particularly useful. If you want to pick another one and by default install that, fine. If you want to force new users to read all about mailers just to get their first mail working, no, that's just too much, Joe, you're asking too much of folks. If you've got a bone to pick with sendmail, that's ok, but you have to pick a better one. If you can't decide on the best one, then how in the heck do you expect Joe Public to do better? ALWAYS provide sensible default values, not a bunch of expert questions. Chuck, Please go back and read what I _wrote_. Your response assumes I made statements that I certainly did not, and suggests to me that you missed every third word in my previous messages. :-( In particular, I advocated including Sendmail in the base system in a manner that would allow it to be trivially removed (or, alternatively, not including it but making it a selectable package, like X11). This could, for example, be done in the very same way that we currently do loads of other crap, like /usr/games, proflibs, etc. More ideally, it would be done in a format compatible with the package management system, so that one could simply "pkg_delete" Sendmail and install a new one. Am I getting through now? :-) -- ... Joe --- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
How will this affect this /etc/mail/mailer.conf "thing" (and I wonder why that was put there to begin with). If we're going to use a mailer.conf, then it should be able to work with other MTAs; which it probably won't because they perform their respective tasks differently. _F To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Joe Greco wrote: Chuck, Please go back and read what I _wrote_. Your response assumes I made I've got your message, I quoted it fully in my first response. You asked to "Remove Sendmail from the base system", and that's a direct quote, Joe. statements that I certainly did not, and suggests to me that you missed every third word in my previous messages. :-( In particular, I advocated including Sendmail in the base system in a manner that would allow it to be trivially removed (or, alternatively, not including it but making it a selectable package, like X11). No, you said remove it, or at least make it removeable. I responded that you can't just remove it. Go to your sent mail message folder, I'm not making this up. I said don't remove it (not "don't make it removeable"). You're the one who's sticking new words in. This could, for example, be done in the very same way that we currently do loads of other crap, like /usr/games, proflibs, etc. More ideally, it would be done in a format compatible with the package management system, so that one could simply "pkg_delete" Sendmail and install a new one. Am I getting through now? :-) You asked in your mail to remove it, I said you can't leave ordinary users without a good default. Your context in what you said was that it was a minor pain to have to remove the default mailer. I stand by what I said. You changed your message, and if you want, I can send your message back to you. If you argue *only* that some easier method be arranged so that mailers can be swapped out, that I fully approve of. I never said otherwise, and I don't like much the way you changed things. In fact, what the heck, here's your original message, cut out of my reply (where I quoted all of your part of the exchange): Perhaps it's time to revisit something I proposed several years ago. Remove Sendmail from the base system - or, at least, make it a "package" that is removable with the package management tool. Then be able to add another mailer (or an updated Sendmail) in its place. Ideally, Sendmail would be available as a package for installation as part of the base system, just like games or info or proflibs. I would love to see this happen with other components of the system as well, such as BIND. While it is fantastic that FreeBSD comes out of the box so fully functional, it does make it a bit of a pain for those of us who intend to build servers - we have to disable the original before installing a new package. :-/ Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Joe Greco wrote: Chuck, Please go back and read what I _wrote_. Your response assumes I made I've got your message, I quoted it fully in my first response. You asked to "Remove Sendmail from the base system", and that's a direct quote, Joe. Yes. That doesn't mean that it can't come with FreeBSD... manpages, games, proflibs, even X11, none of those are part of the base system, but people find their way to installing them. Somehow. Also, you've completely ignored that there was a latter half to that sentence. "Hmm." I love creative quoting, and I really have an aversion to being made to say something that I didn't, like "let's force users to choose a mailer". -- ... Joe --- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 05:21:24PM -0500, Joe Greco wrote: Remove Sendmail from the base system - or, at least, make it a "package" that is removable with the package management tool. Then be able to add another mailer (or an updated Sendmail) in its place. Ideally, Sendmail would be available as a package for installation as part of the base system, just like games or info or proflibs. Sounds all basically like a good idea to have different choices for a MTA. But I don't like _basic_ system functionalities to be out sourced completely to ports. Two examples: If I give people a FreeBSD-STABLE snapshot CD, I'd like to give them a complete Unix, and for me a MTA belongs to a basic package. If I want to do a complete upgrade of all of my system ports, because I come to the conclusion - I installed to much experimental crap and don't get it sorted out manually - or I want to upgrade everything to the latest and greatest I don't want to kill my MTA (sendmail) by performing a rm -rf /usr/local/* action. FreeBSD - as is - has all the basic system functionality in the base system and I wouldn't like to have a "neutral" "castrated" Unix just for the sake, that you can start later to customize things like sendmail and maybe other things I would love to see this happen with other components of the system as well, such as BIND. definitively not. I hate the Linux way to have a puzzle system. Could we please still agree on a base system that is complete, so that SNAP CD's still represent a complete BSD without having to create additional ports ??? Again FreeBSD != Linux. While it is fantastic that FreeBSD comes out of the box so fully functional, it does make it a bit of a pain for those of us who intend to build servers - we have to disable the original before installing a new package. :-/ Well ... for that purpose I'd vote for the following: a) make more NO_ (sendmail, bind, whatever) knobs in /etc/make.conf as needed b) make the Makefiles in the install target more complete by removing (old) occurrencies of sendmail, bind, if such a NO_XXX knob has been set. Then you get such an ISP server as you like after a make world session c) Split FreeBSD packaging any further (bin, man, doc, compat,...) Add something like a package internet (sendmail, bind, ...) Then you can install a sendmail, DNS free system as you like. But I wouldn't for a generally castrated BSD. -- Andreas Klemm http://people.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD New APSFILTER 533 and songs from our band - http://people.freebsd.org/~andreas To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
At 2:44 PM -0400 2000/4/9, Patrick Bihan-Faou wrote: The advantage would be that we can have a fairly decent qmail configuration using the standard make world feature. Is there any interest in that kind of work ? Considering the number of qmail-specific pieces that need to be installed to support it (and the resulting domino effect), the highly negative impacts that qmail is notorious for, and that it is not intended to be a drop-in replacement for sendmail, I would be highly opposed to this change. If we are actively interested in finding a replacement for the open-source sendmail MTA, I would prefer one that was designed from the beginning with security in mind (including going so far as being intended to run in a chroot() environment), is intended to avoid undesirable behaviour as much as possible, and is intended to be a drop-in replacement for sendmail to the greatest degree possible. In other words, if we're going to be replacing sendmail with an alternative MTA, I'd prefer postfix over qmail, and I believe I can marshall some pretty strong arguments for that position. Perhaps it's time to revisit something I proposed several years ago. Remove Sendmail from the base system - or, at least, make it a "package" that is removable with the package management tool. Then be able to add another mailer (or an updated Sendmail) in its place. Ideally, Sendmail would be available as a package for installation as part of the base system, just like games or info or proflibs. I would love to see this happen with other components of the system as well, such as BIND. While it is fantastic that FreeBSD comes out of the box so fully functional, it does make it a bit of a pain for those of us who intend to build servers - we have to disable the original before installing a new package. :-/ -- ... Joe --- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 05:21:24PM -0500, Joe Greco wrote: While it is fantastic that FreeBSD comes out of the box so fully functional, it does make it a bit of a pain for those of us who intend to build servers - we have to disable the original before installing a new package. :-/ man mailwrapper No, that's not what I'm talking about. If you want to install the latest Sendmail, what do you do? (hint: it has nothing to do with mailwrapper) I'd like it to be something like: # pkg_delete sendmail; pkg_add sendmail Right now, to do a chrooted sendmail, not only do you have to remove the pre-existing sendmail: # chmod 000 /usr/sbin/sendmail /etc/sendmail.cf (etc etc) but you also have to do some things to install it chrooted someplace safe. Some of us also view the concept of having to actually change executables within the base system as something nearing criminal. I _really_ like the idea of mounting my systems RO and very secure. Changing modes on files doesn't bother me so much, but I'd prefer not to do it. The ideal situation would be where sendmail did not come installed by default. -- ... Joe --- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
At 2:44 PM -0400 2000/4/9, Patrick Bihan-Faou wrote: The advantage would be that we can have a fairly decent qmail configuration using the standard make world feature. Is there any interest in that kind of work ? Considering the number of qmail-specific pieces that need to be installed to support it (and the resulting domino effect), the highly negative impacts that qmail is notorious for, and that it is not intended to be a drop-in replacement for sendmail, I would be highly opposed to this change. If we are actively interested in finding a replacement for the open-source sendmail MTA, I would prefer one that was designed from the beginning with security in mind (including going so far as being intended to run in a chroot() environment), is intended to avoid undesirable behaviour as much as possible, and is intended to be a drop-in replacement for sendmail to the greatest degree possible. In other words, if we're going to be replacing sendmail with an alternative MTA, I'd prefer postfix over qmail, and I believe I can marshall some pretty strong arguments for that position. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy == Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED]|| Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
At 5:40 PM -0400 2000/4/9, Patrick Bihan-Faou wrote: Then people that are running a mail server could install either the Sendmail, Postfix, Qmail, Zmail, etc... MTA ports. Sounds like a great idea. The reason why I am doing this is because I DONT want sendmail. The solution that is being implemented sounds like the best way to approach this. I can support this position as well. I don't think we're likely to find consensus on replacing one MTA with another (the community is too diverse for that), so replacing a full-featured MTA with one that has the minimum necessary features for "nullclient" operations and then allowing people to install whatever full-featured MTA they may want seems to be the best alternative. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy == Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED]|| Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Integrating QMAIL in the world
Hi, I have integrated the source of qmail so it can be built as part of the "world". I think that it would be nice to have an alternative for the mailer package to be built as part of a make world. What I would like to do is upgrate the "NO_SENDMAIL" variable to a "MAILER_SYSTEM" variable, which could be set to "SENDMAIL" (default), "NONE" or "QMAIL". The advantage would be that we can have a fairly decent qmail configuration using the standard make world feature. Is there any interest in that kind of work ? Patrick. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:44:25PM -0400, Patrick Bihan-Faou wrote: I have integrated the source of qmail so it can be built as part of the "world". I think that it would be nice to have an alternative for the mailer package to be built as part of a make world. I don't recall the particulars (it's been a while since I've managed a qmail installation), but aren't there issues with qmail's distribution license that would make integrating it into the build tree illegal? As a side note, I don't think it's all that good of an idea to add another MTA to the build tree, but I'm sure others will raise a more substantial argument than I could. -- Jon Parise ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) . Rochester Inst. of Technology http://www.csh.rit.edu/~jon/ : Computer Science House Member To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
From: "Jon Parise" [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:44:25PM -0400, Patrick Bihan-Faou wrote: I have integrated the source of qmail so it can be built as part of the "world". I think that it would be nice to have an alternative for the mailer package to be built as part of a make world. I don't recall the particulars (it's been a while since I've managed a qmail installation), but aren't there issues with qmail's distribution license that would make integrating it into the build tree illegal? I will contact DJB and find out if this is OK with him. After reading his "license" page, I come to the conclusion that it is a matter of obtaining is approval. He wants to ensure that qmail IS qmail no matter how and where it is installed. As a side note, I don't think it's all that good of an idea to add another MTA to the build tree, but I'm sure others will raise a more substantial argument than I could. Well, qmail is a fairly popular alternative to sendmail. It is supposedly more secure, and definitely easier to configure. I use it exclusively and it would be a lot nicer for me to have it included in the base distribution of FreeBSD. I am sure that other people feel the same. My intent is NOT to start a flame war on MTA's. If nobody is interested and/or the FreeBSD team does not want it, then it will not be included in the tree. It's that simple. I remember some while ago some threads going wild on the subject of MTA. The only reason why I am posting this is that I did the work for some other project I am involved in, and if it can help others, then I'd rather share it. Patrick. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:44:25PM -0400, Patrick Bihan-Faou wrote: I have integrated the source of qmail so it can be built as part of the "world". I think that it would be nice to have an alternative for the mailer package to be built as part of a make world. ... Is there any interest in that kind of work ? I'd say probably not. Peter Wemm is working on kicking Sendmail out of the base system and replacing it with a very simple piece that can do local mail delivery and outgoing SMTP to a relay host -- these are the minimal operational requirements. Then people that are running a mail server could install either the Sendmail, Postfix, Qmail, Zmail, etc... MTA ports. -- -- David([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
- Original Message - From: "David O'Brien" [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:44:25PM -0400, Patrick Bihan-Faou wrote: I have integrated the source of qmail so it can be built as part of the "world". I think that it would be nice to have an alternative for the mailer package to be built as part of a make world. ... Is there any interest in that kind of work ? I'd say probably not. Peter Wemm is working on kicking Sendmail out of the base system and replacing it with a very simple piece that can do local mail delivery and outgoing SMTP to a relay host -- these are the minimal operational requirements. Then people that are running a mail server could install either the Sendmail, Postfix, Qmail, Zmail, etc... MTA ports. Sounds like a great idea. The reason why I am doing this is because I DONT want sendmail. The solution that is being implemented sounds like the best way to approach this. Thread closed ? Patrick. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Integrating QMAIL in the world
qmail is distributed as "freeware" according to freshmeat.net. They do not define the term, but by my definition, freeware would be freer than the BSD license. * Jon Parise ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [000409 15:04]: I don't recall the particulars (it's been a while since I've managed a qmail installation), but aren't there issues with qmail's distribution license that would make integrating it into the build tree illegal? -- Hasan Diwan [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] :) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Computer Science Department http://forsythe.dhs.org/~hdiwan PGP signature
