Re: 5.25" floppy drive

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi Christoph,
> In the end it turns out that the floppies that were lying in a drawer 
> for 19 years, are producing read errors.

Do NOT throw them out.
I have a tool that can rescue near all data.
http://berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/jhs/bin/public/valid/

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey: BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com
 Mail plain text;  Not HTML, quoted-printable & base 64 spam formats.
Avoid top posting, It cripples itemised cumulative responses.
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Re: 5.25" floppy drive

[Jerry]

On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:50:00 +
Thomas Mueller  articulated:

> from "Christoph Kukulies" :
> 
> > Thanks to all.
> 
> > Solved.
> 
> > It was a multiple cause issue:
> 
> > 1st: BIOS Setting was incorrect (had to enable 1.2MB 5.25 rather
> > than 3.5 which was it set to - an oversight in the firts place,
> > that occured to me).
> 
> 
> > 2nd: Cable issue: I had a combined cable (3.5 " connector at the
> > end and edge connector second but last.
> 
> 
> > 3rd:  in combination with 2nd: DS0 jumper issue.
> 
> 
> > Anyway, I found a cable that had two edge connectors.
> 
> > In the end it turns out that the floppies that were lying in a
> > drawer for 19 years, are producing read errors. I also learnt about
> > fdcontrol. Floppy interface has changed significantly since Joerg
> > Wunsch and Bruce Evans worked on them in the early FreeBSD days
> > back in 1995 :)
> 
> 
> > --
> > Christoph
> 
> Congratulations on solving your floppy problem, but I can understand
> your problems with floppies.  They've gone bad with age for me too.
> I can read but not write, then I can't read and in most cases can't
> even reformat. 
> 
> FreeBSD installation sets structure (base.aa, base.ab, base.ac etc.)
> suggests that one could install from a big set of floppies, but
> there's no way I could get such a good set of floppies together.  I
> think my 5.25" floppies and drive hold out better than the 3.5"
> floppies and drives.

I had a similar problem last year on a Windows platform when a local
municipality asked to move the data from nearly 500 5.25 disks to CD.
The disks were in storage since mid 1990. I located an external 5.25
disk drive, they are dirt cheap, and attempted to copy the data. Like
you pointed out, the majority of the disks were severely damaged. I
finally settled on Spin-Rite  to
repair the disks. I had used it before and was familiar with its
workings. It took nearly a week for us to get the disks repaired and
copied; however, with only a couple of exceptions, the job ended
successfully. I cannot comment on 3.5 vs 5.25 disks, except to say
"good riddance" to both formats.

-- 
Jerry ✌
freebsd.u...@seibercom.net

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Re: 5.25" floppy drive

[Thomas Mueller]

from "Christoph Kukulies" :

> Thanks to all.

> Solved.

> It was a multiple cause issue:

> 1st: BIOS Setting was incorrect (had to enable 1.2MB 5.25 rather than 3.5 
> which was it set to - an oversight in the firts place, that occured to me).


> 2nd: Cable issue: I had a combined cable (3.5 " connector at the end and edge 
> connector second but last.


> 3rd:  in combination with 2nd: DS0 jumper issue.


> Anyway, I found a cable that had two edge connectors.

> In the end it turns out that the floppies that were lying in a drawer for 19 
> years, are producing read errors.
> I also learnt about fdcontrol. Floppy interface has changed significantly 
> since Joerg Wunsch and Bruce Evans
> worked on them in the early FreeBSD days back in 1995 :)


> --
> Christoph

Congratulations on solving your floppy problem, but I can understand your 
problems with floppies.  They've gone bad with age for me too.  I can read but 
not write, then I can't read and in most cases can't even reformat. 

FreeBSD installation sets structure (base.aa, base.ab, base.ac etc.) suggests 
that one could install from a big set of floppies, but there's no way I could 
get such a good set of floppies together.  I think my 5.25" floppies and drive 
hold out better than the 3.5" floppies and drives.


Tom
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Re: 5.25" floppy drive

[Christoph Kukulies]

 Thanks to all.

Solved.

It was a multiple cause issue:

1st: BIOS Setting was incorrect (had to enable 1.2MB 5.25 rather than 
3.5 which was it set to - an oversight in the firts place, that occured 
to me).



2nd: Cable issue: I had a combined cable (3.5 " connector at the end and 
edge connector second but last.



3rd:  in combination with 2nd: DS0 jumper issue.


Anyway, I found a cable that had two edge connectors.

In the end it turns out that the floppies that were lying in a drawer 
for 19 years, are producing read errors.
I also learnt about fdcontrol. Floppy interface has changed 
significantly since Joerg Wunsch and Bruce Evans

worked on them in the early FreeBSD days back in 1995 :)


--
Christoph


Am 01.10.2010 19:18, schrieb Warren Block:

On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Christoph Kukulies wrote:

I'm in the need of reading some data from old 5.25" floppy media 
(1.2MB).
I lent 2 drives from neighbour institutes at the university and after 
having recalled that the
floppies have to be enabled in the BIOS I'm now seeing the fd0 device 
in dmesg (FreeBSD 8.0 RELEASE).


I can do a dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/root/fd0.dmp

The select light is lit, the head motor seems to get power but the 
spindle doesn't spin.


Possibly a drive select issue.  Some drives had jumpers or switches, 
some cables have flipped-around wires so the connectors are specific 
to one drive or another.  If your cabling is straight-through with no 
funny business at the connectors, set the drive to DS0.  If the cable 
has split out and flipped-over sections, DS1 should be set in the 
jumpers --but then it depends on which connector is used.  ...I think, 
anyway, it's been a few years since I've had to use a 5.25.



I tried that with two TEAC drives to no avail.

Any clues what I may have forgotten? The drive is connected with the 
edge connector and the end is open.

Does it need to be terminated?


None that I've seen.
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Re: 5.25" floppy drive

[Warren Block]

On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Christoph Kukulies wrote:


I'm in the need of reading some data from old 5.25" floppy media (1.2MB).
I lent 2 drives from neighbour institutes at the university and after having 
recalled that the
floppies have to be enabled in the BIOS I'm now seeing the fd0 device in 
dmesg (FreeBSD 8.0 RELEASE).


I can do a dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/root/fd0.dmp

The select light is lit, the head motor seems to get power but the spindle 
doesn't spin.


Possibly a drive select issue.  Some drives had jumpers or switches, 
some cables have flipped-around wires so the connectors are specific to 
one drive or another.  If your cabling is straight-through with no funny 
business at the connectors, set the drive to DS0.  If the cable has 
split out and flipped-over sections, DS1 should be set in the jumpers 
--but then it depends on which connector is used.  ...I think, anyway, 
it's been a few years since I've had to use a 5.25.



I tried that with two TEAC drives to no avail.

Any clues what I may have forgotten? The drive is connected with the edge 
connector and the end is open.

Does it need to be terminated?


None that I've seen.
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Re: 5.25" floppy drive

[Polytropon]

On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:04:40 +0200, Christoph Kukulies  
wrote:
>   I'm in the need of reading some data from old 5.25" floppy media (1.2MB).
> I lent 2 drives from neighbour institutes at the university and after 
> having recalled that the
> floppies have to be enabled in the BIOS I'm now seeing the fd0 device in 
> dmesg (FreeBSD 8.0 RELEASE).

Similat to this?

% dmesg | grep ^fd
fdc0: 
port 0x3f2-0x3f3,0x3f4-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on acpi0
fdc0: [FILTER]
fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0

This is for a 3.5" drive of course, the 5.25"'s message should
read similar. FreeBSD 7 here.



> I can do a dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/root/fd0.dmp
> 
> The select light is lit, the head motor seems to get power but the 
> spindle doesn't spin.
> 
> I tried that with two TEAC drives to no avail.

Strange, I would suspect drive electronics first... do you have
a "low end" PC (DOS) to check the drives? The lowest level diagnosis
tools are often the best. :-)



> Any clues what I may have forgotten? The drive is connected with the 
> edge connector and the end is open.

Sounds correct.



> Does it need to be terminated?

No.

The position on the cable selects which "drive letter" will be
associated to a given drive; the one on the end is A:, the one
on the middle is B:. A single drive is usually connected to the
end of the cable. As the connector for 5.25" drive does have
a gap, you can't "wrongly connect" it. The connector to the
main board should also have a nose that prevents wrong cabling.
Wrong cabling is indicated by a permanent (!) activity light
on the drive.

Instead of using dd, can you maybe access the drive using mount
or the mtools (from ports)?

If you encounter further problems, I can get a working drive
and check here. I'm in a kind of working museum. :-)



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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5.25" floppy drive

[Christoph Kukulies]

 I'm in the need of reading some data from old 5.25" floppy media (1.2MB).
I lent 2 drives from neighbour institutes at the university and after 
having recalled that the
floppies have to be enabled in the BIOS I'm now seeing the fd0 device in 
dmesg (FreeBSD 8.0 RELEASE).


I can do a dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/root/fd0.dmp

The select light is lit, the head motor seems to get power but the 
spindle doesn't spin.


I tried that with two TEAC drives to no avail.

Any clues what I may have forgotten? The drive is connected with the 
edge connector and the end is open.

Does it need to be terminated?

--
Christoph

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Re: 5.25" Floppy

[Doug Reynolds]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:40:24 + (GMT), William Palfreman wrote:

>On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, northern snowfall wrote:
>
>>  Morning, all;
>>  I'm trying to get a Mitsumi D509V3 1.2MB 5.25" floppy drive
>>  to work on FreeBSD 4.2.6.
>
>Cool.  My father still has a 5.25" drive in production use - he has
>large numbers of 5.25 disks containing old work, and maybe once a
>year needs something off one of them.  Works fine on his W2k box.
>
>> The operating system reports the drive
>>  is available and definitely makes contact with the drive (visual
>>  confirmation: LED). The issue is during read/write from the
>>  drive. Error message:
>>  fd0c: hard error reading fsbn 0 (No status)
>>  I have the proper drive type set in the BIOS. FreeBSD seems to
>>  agree according to the dmesg:
>>  fd0: <1200-KB 5.25" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
>>  I've been doing simple read tests using:
>>  dd if=/dev/fd0 count=1 bs=512 | hexdump ;
>>  Any suggestions?
>
>Drive might be broken, disk might be broken, disk might not be
>formated, and finally make sure you know what kind of 5.25 both the
>drive and the disk are. 8088/86 machines stated off with single sided 8
>sector one @160k, then double sided 8 sector (320k), then single sided 9
>sector (180k), then double sided 9 sector (360k).  That was the
>standard.  AT machines (i.e. 286s and later 386s & 486s) used 1.2Mb
>5.25" disks.  These AT drives could read 360k PC disks (PC = 8086/88,
>BTW) but if you wrote to one there was a very good chance it would never
>be readable by a PC again, because the 1.2Mb AT drive had a read/write
>head 1/3 of the size of the 360Kb PC drive, and often the mark it left
>was too small to be read by larger PC heads.  For that reason I always
>treated 360k disks as read-only media on 1.2Mb drives.

correct; however, you can also format a 360K disk as a 360K High
Density, so you could read or write to it from a 1.2M, and still read
it from a 360k (but not write).

---
doug reynolds | the maverick | [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: 5.25" Floppy

[jdunham]

On 7 Feb 2003 at 11:06, northern snowfall wrote:

> Yeh, according to FreeBSD's /sys/isa/fd.c and /sys/sys/fdcio.h 360k 1.2M 
> 720k are the only ones supported. This, in particular, is a Mitsumi D509V3 which 
> is a 1.2M.

The fact that it's a Mitscrewme worries me.  I've seen a lot of trouble 
with their floppy mechanisms.  1.2s were particularly troublesome.  
Often they could read what they wrote, but not what was written 
elsewhere.

Hmmm  I suppose there's not much chance I'll get this here 8-inch 
floppy drive working on my FreeBSD system.  Ah, well, all my disks were 
written in DOS.H, anyway.


--
Jerry Dunham
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: 5.25" Floppy

[William Palfreman]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, northern snowfall wrote:

>  Morning, all;
>  I'm trying to get a Mitsumi D509V3 1.2MB 5.25" floppy drive
>  to work on FreeBSD 4.2.6.

Cool.  My father still has a 5.25" drive in production use - he has
large numbers of 5.25 disks containing old work, and maybe once a
year needs something off one of them.  Works fine on his W2k box.

> The operating system reports the drive
>  is available and definitely makes contact with the drive (visual
>  confirmation: LED). The issue is during read/write from the
>  drive. Error message:
>  fd0c: hard error reading fsbn 0 (No status)
>  I have the proper drive type set in the BIOS. FreeBSD seems to
>  agree according to the dmesg:
>  fd0: <1200-KB 5.25" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
>  I've been doing simple read tests using:
>  dd if=/dev/fd0 count=1 bs=512 | hexdump ;
>  Any suggestions?

Drive might be broken, disk might be broken, disk might not be
formated, and finally make sure you know what kind of 5.25 both the
drive and the disk are. 8088/86 machines stated off with single sided 8
sector one @160k, then double sided 8 sector (320k), then single sided 9
sector (180k), then double sided 9 sector (360k).  That was the
standard.  AT machines (i.e. 286s and later 386s & 486s) used 1.2Mb
5.25" disks.  These AT drives could read 360k PC disks (PC = 8086/88,
BTW) but if you wrote to one there was a very good chance it would never
be readable by a PC again, because the 1.2Mb AT drive had a read/write
head 1/3 of the size of the 360Kb PC drive, and often the mark it left
was too small to be read by larger PC heads.  For that reason I always
treated 360k disks as read-only media on 1.2Mb drives.

As other people have said, /dev/fd0.1200 and /dev/fd0.360 look like you
friends here.  Personally I don't bother compiling fd stuff into the
kernel any more.

- -- 
W. Palfreman.
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W5hprQHP/oeOpwE0U7NKY4I=
=QjNO
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Re: 5.25" Floppy

[northern snowfall]

Here's the rundown:
SSDD 8-sector: 160K  This is all that was available in MS-DOS 1.0, IIRC.
SSDD 9-sector: 180K
DSDD 8-sector: 320K
DSDD 9-sector: 360K  This was the default starting with MS-DOS 2.1, IIRC.
DSHD 15-sector: 1.2G (At least I think it was 15-sector...)

Only the last two appear to be supported by FreeBSD 4.7, at least by
default.


Yeh, according to FreeBSD's /sys/isa/fd.c and /sys/sys/fdcio.h 360k 1.2M 
720k are
the only ones supported. This, in particular, is a Mitsumi D509V3 which 
is a
1.2M.
Don




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Re: 5.25" Floppy

[Jim Trigg]

On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 10:16:51AM -0500, Louis LeBlanc wrote:
> On 02/07/03 12:41 AM, Daxbert sat at the `puter and typed:
> > have you tried using:
> > 
> > /dev/fd0.1200  
> > 
> > I think 1.2MB is the normal size for a 5.25 dual sided floppy.  
> > 
> > --daxbert
> > 
> I thought that was the newer ones.  Weren't the old style 5.25s 640K?
> It's been so long . . .

Here's the rundown:
SSDD 8-sector: 160K  This is all that was available in MS-DOS 1.0, IIRC.
SSDD 9-sector: 180K
DSDD 8-sector: 320K
DSDD 9-sector: 360K  This was the default starting with MS-DOS 2.1, IIRC.
DSHD 15-sector: 1.2G (At least I think it was 15-sector...)

Only the last two appear to be supported by FreeBSD 4.7, at least by
default.

Jim Trigg
-- 
Jim Trigg, Lord High Everything Else  O-  /"\
Verger, All Saints Church - Sharon Chapel \ /  ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Novice, OSMXHELP CURE HTML MAIL
Hostmaster, michaelines.net   / \

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Re: 5.25" Floppy

[northern snowfall]

I thought that was the newer ones.  Weren't the old style 5.25s 640K?
It's been so long . . .


Model independant


Where the heck did you even find a working one?  

Around the house. We have three...


Even the 3.5s are
pretty much beyond usefulness for me now that the net is everywhere
and the CDRWs are so easy and cheap, but those 5.25s would be pretty
interesting for nostalgia.


Nostalgia, sure... but, hacking an 8086 boot disk just to access an even 
more
ancient hard disk with an original 70s FORTRAN compiler and libraries?
Much cooler.

Either way, I'll bet Daxbert's advice will at least set you in the
right direction.

Good luck.


I appreciate the luck =) But, I tried that before posting to the lists. 
No such
luck in that direction. The driver plumbs the "fd?.*" interface along 
with the
"fd?" interface based on values probed from the CMOS, so, its basically a
namespace bind on static size media.
Don



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Re: 5.25" Floppy

[Louis LeBlanc]

I thought that was the newer ones.  Weren't the old style 5.25s 640K?
It's been so long . . .

Where the heck did you even find a working one?  Even the 3.5s are
pretty much beyond usefulness for me now that the net is everywhere
and the CDRWs are so easy and cheap, but those 5.25s would be pretty
interesting for nostalgia.

Either way, I'll bet Daxbert's advice will at least set you in the
right direction.

Good luck.
Lou

On 02/07/03 12:41 AM, Daxbert sat at the `puter and typed:
> have you tried using:
> 
> /dev/fd0.1200  
> 
> I think 1.2MB is the normal size for a 5.25 dual sided floppy.  
> 
> --daxbert
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "northern snowfall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:26 AM
> Subject: 5.25" Floppy 
> 
> 
> > Morning, all;
> >  I'm trying to get a Mitsumi D509V3 1.2MB 5.25" floppy drive
> >  to work on FreeBSD 4.2.6. The operating system reports the drive
> >  is available and definitely makes contact with the drive (visual
> >  confirmation: LED). The issue is during read/write from the
> >  drive. Error message:
> >  fd0c: hard error reading fsbn 0 (No status)
> >  I have the proper drive type set in the BIOS. FreeBSD seems to
> >  agree according to the dmesg:
> >  fd0: <1200-KB 5.25" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
> >  I've been doing simple read tests using:
> >  dd if=/dev/fd0 count=1 bs=512 | hexdump ;
> >  Any suggestions?
> >  Don
> >  
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
> > 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
> 
> 

-- 
Louis LeBlanc   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :)
http://www.keyslapper.org ԿԬ

Kramer's Law:
  You can never tell which way the train went by looking at the tracks.

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Re: 5.25" Floppy

[Daxbert]

have you tried using:

/dev/fd0.1200  

I think 1.2MB is the normal size for a 5.25 dual sided floppy.  

--daxbert


- Original Message - 
From: "northern snowfall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:26 AM
Subject: 5.25" Floppy 


> Morning, all;
>  I'm trying to get a Mitsumi D509V3 1.2MB 5.25" floppy drive
>  to work on FreeBSD 4.2.6. The operating system reports the drive
>  is available and definitely makes contact with the drive (visual
>  confirmation: LED). The issue is during read/write from the
>  drive. Error message:
>  fd0c: hard error reading fsbn 0 (No status)
>  I have the proper drive type set in the BIOS. FreeBSD seems to
>  agree according to the dmesg:
>  fd0: <1200-KB 5.25" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
>  I've been doing simple read tests using:
>  dd if=/dev/fd0 count=1 bs=512 | hexdump ;
>  Any suggestions?
>  Don
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
> 

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5.25" Floppy

[northern snowfall]

Morning, all;
I'm trying to get a Mitsumi D509V3 1.2MB 5.25" floppy drive
to work on FreeBSD 4.2.6. The operating system reports the drive
is available and definitely makes contact with the drive (visual
confirmation: LED). The issue is during read/write from the
drive. Error message:
fd0c: hard error reading fsbn 0 (No status)
I have the proper drive type set in the BIOS. FreeBSD seems to
agree according to the dmesg:
fd0: <1200-KB 5.25" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
I've been doing simple read tests using:
dd if=/dev/fd0 count=1 bs=512 | hexdump ;
Any suggestions?
Don






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