Re: [Freedos-devel] Translations Was:Re: Missing FDOS utilities

[Emir Yâsin SARI via Freedos-devel]

Hello,

> perditi...@gmail.com şunları yazdı (19 May 2020 02:07):
> 
> So my questions:
> What is the best format for translators?
> utf8 po/pot file, code page specific catgets format (i.e. current format for 
> many of the programs), some json, csv, or xml format, ???

The translation system ideally should follow these requirements:

Backend:
- Single repository for all translatable strings (either translation only repo 
or a totally unified code repo)
- Proper translatable strings for all programs with proper string 
interpolation. Some languages have reverse word order compared to Indo-European 
languages (including my native language), and not knowing whether a variable is 
supposed to follow or precede a string is not ideal.  
- A script to convert translated strings to the respective language code page 
from UTF-8

Frontend:
- Easy-to-use GUI interface
- Necessary explanatory comments for all required strings

As an example, Haiku uses .catkeys format with Pootle: 
https://imgur.com/a/GMSzRDD
It fetches all the translatable strings from the main Haiku repository, and the 
translations are auto-committed and fetched from once a week.

Best,
Emir



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Translations Was:Re: Missing FDOS utilities

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jeremy and everybody,

I would only suggest any form of automated infrastructure,
central storage, distribution or conversion of translations
if you expect translations to happen frequently, which I do
not, or if you like tinkering with such infrastructures :-)

In the normal situation, I would ask myself: Which apps have
translation support? Which are sufficiently high profile to
be worth updating? Which of them are still maintained? Those
which are not can be recompiled and published by somebody else,
maybe even in a centralized way. For those which are, you can
send the new translations to the maintainer and get back fresh
packages. I understand that this takes effort for translators,
who will also not know which maintainers are still active.

LSM HTML on freedos.org/software could probably indicate that,
as well as giving hints on whether the "original" site still is
active or whether newer versions only exist on our ibiblio copy.

Of course it would also be nice to have a central point for the
translators: Somebody would have to collect all translatable code
bits from the individual packages (NOT normalizing it into single
file formats if you ask me) and put them in a repositore. When a
translator submits changes, the repository maintainer could then
distribute the changes back to the package maintainers or, if no
maintainer is active, make fresh packages themselves for ibiblio.

That would require a translation coordinator to exist and feel
like doing this. Also, there is a risk that others have been
doing the same, leading to duplicate work. Talk to the others
and organize a cooperation or, if retired, handoverin that case.

I would not worry about causing too many version number changes
because as said, translation updates are rare and very unlikely
to collide in-flight when several people update their languages.

After all, this is a very calm little OS compared to Linux :-)

>>> at https://github.com/shidel/fd-nls

> The fd-nls GitHub page, a new GitHub page, try and revive the fd-local
> Sourceforge site, try and join another open source projects...

> Maybe freedos-local is what I want and I just didn't contribute to it's
> success.  I appreciated it.  I think the key is to remove translations
> from program sources and instead combine when building / packaging

I disagree. FreeDOS is too heterogenous for that and I would not
change that for fun. You can make a collection of build scripts
to more easily update packages in their current form if you like.

Also, splitting packages into modules on different hosts has caused
trouble with FreeCOM and SUPPL lib, so even though in THEORY other
packages might share source bits, I rather have everything needed
for one package in the package itself. Same for the EDIT TUI lib.

> catgets based ... the release build need not include translations
> at all, a complete set* for a given translation can be its own
> package/download.

I rather want ALL translations to be included with the package, it
is more intuitive for DOS to not have to install separate NLS stuff.

Regards, Eric

PS: Who ran freedoslocal.sf.net and what happened to it?



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[Freedos-devel] Translations Was:Re: Missing FDOS utilities

[perditionc]

On Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:58 PM thraex  wrote:

>
>
> On 18.05.2020 15:17, Jerome Shidel wrote:
>
> > First, http://freedoslocal.sourceforge.net is no longer maintained.
>
> Indeed, that's a resource I miss sorely as a translator :(
>
> > Occasionally, individuals have sent me translations for packages other
> > than the ones I develop. With no good place to send them at present,
> > I just started to funnel all translations into a new Github project
> > at https://github.com/shidel/fd-nls
> >
> > At present, I’m thinking of it as a new temporary home for all of them.
> ...


I understand both sides, from a translator perspective, having a single
location to check for and submit updates to is both useful (avoids wasting
time & effort to find who & where) and convenient (only 1 instead of many
places to find and submit updates).  From a project perspective, we want to
encourage translations, so the easier this is then the better.  However,
the reality is that a FreeDOS distribution is like a Linux distribution, a
collection of separate programs grouped together and installed as though it
were a singular piece of software.  Originally there were quite a few
developers and each piece was maintained by different people; not
necessarily the case today.  I still like having the translation with the
program and maintained along with it, but I want to encourage
translations.  My concern is having multiple places to submit a translation
for the same program will result in wasted or duplicate effort.  Pulling
translations out and into their own project is going to make building
(compiling) more complex, now you need to download and extract translations
from a separate project sometimes even before building, depending on what
translation mechanism is used.

Personally I would like to split the process.  Have a central repository
for translations* that is easy for developers to add new strings to, easy
for translators to see what has changed/added and to add translations for,
that is not tied to how the programs use the strings (I'm sure there are
common standard formats in use that can be easier for translations and easy
enough to convert to program specific format).  The FreeDOS site should
prominently point to this location, be it on Sourceforge, a GitHub
repository, or a third party translation site hosted by whoever, ...
Everyone would know where to send updates to regardless of which program
and developers can periodically, such as when making a new release,
download latest translations, convert to appropriate format and include the
conversions into their build process.  No risk of lost translations,
duplicate work, or confusion.

So my questions:
What is the best format for translators?
utf8 po/pot file, code page specific catgets format (i.e. current format
for many of the programs), some json, csv, or xml format, ???

Where should these translations be stored including how to update and
download?
The fd-nls GitHub page, a new GitHub page, try and revive the fd-local
Sourceforge site, try and join another open source projects translation
site, ???

Can we agree to use the above site and format for sharing or is this going
to be some do and most don't so eventually stopped being updated as well?
I am willing to convert all the current programs that are part of FDOS
GitHub site that lack upstream maintainers to do this.  That is, submit a
source set of messages and current translations of appropriate format to
shared site and then download and convert back for releases.  Current
translations would be deleted from FDOS repositories with updated
instructions for where to send/get translations and how to build
(downloading and converting needs to be an automatic part of compiling).


Sorry for such a long message.  Please reply.  If there is not much
discussion or consensus, then I will likely just create a new repository
under FDOS with latest translations and update the other repositories to
use it as described.  Format undecided, but with tools to convert to po and
program format.


Maybe freedos-local is what I want and I just didn't contribute to it's
success.  I appreciated it.  I think the key is to remove translations from
program sources and instead combine when building/packaging for release but
avoiding duplicate public locations to get/submit translations to.  For
catgets based programs, the release build need not include translations at
all, a complete set* for a given translation can be its own
package/download.

*Note that I am mostly concerned about the core (base+) programs, but it
would be nice if it worked out for other included programs as well.

Jeremy
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Missing FDOS utilities

[Jerome Shidel]

Hi,

> On May 18, 2020, at 3:42 PM, thraex  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 18.05.2020 15:17, Jerome Shidel wrote:
> 
>> First, http://freedoslocal.sourceforge.net is no longer maintained. 
> 
> Indeed, that's a resource I miss sorely as a translator :(
> 
>> Occasionally, individuals have sent me translations for packages other
>> than the ones I develop. With no good place to send them at present,
>> I just started to funnel all translations into a new Github project
>> at https://github.com/shidel/fd-nls 
>> 
>> At present, I’m thinking of it as a new temporary home for all of them. 
> 
> Hehe, I have bad news for you Jerome. I reviewed French translations and
> I (or rather, the spellchecker and the Grammalecte tool) caught several
> mistakes in choice, edlin, fc, fdnpkg, find, freecom_err, freecom_lng,
> help, htmlhelp, md5sum, more, move, password, sort, trch, tree, and
> xcopy. I already filed a report
> () for FreeCOM containing the
> updated translations, but for the remaining ones it looks like fd-nls
> will be their new home (see ) :P

Unfortunately if you disregard the little broken-spanish I know, I really only 
speak
and write two languages, English and bad English. :-)

If you’ve found spelling and grammatical errors, please update them and submit a
Pull request. 

> 
> Also, I would have two questions:
> 
> Firstly, I noticed
> 
> now has 331 listings, whereas the file I had translated in 2018 has only
> 302. Do you have updated French & Turkish csv files so I can translate
> new items that must be in English, or do I have to insert them manually
> on my side (ugh)?

Actually, the current FR & TR files are semi-broken. The RBE (Release Build 
Environment)
throws many errors while parsing those CSV files. Mostly, they have an extra 
column. The RBE
complains and ignores it. However, some entries cause it to basically say 
"HUH?” and just ignore 
the entire translation for that package. The RBE outputs a message for missing 
translations data.
I need to add something that also lists missing entries. (if no translation at 
all, it doesn’t complain… yet)

If you could spend a few minutes and check out the LOG to fix the current 
issues, I’d really appreciate it.
I’m really getting tired of seeing hundreds of translation errors during 
release test builds. :-)

Meanwhile, I’ll spend a couple minutes and throw together a bash script, that 
will compare the main English CSV to a 
translation and generate a "What’s needed” CSV.

> 
> Secondly, I noticed certain translations (for isntance fdnpkg.fr) do not
> comply with the limit of 80 characters per line.
> Let's consider:
> "2.6:Vous devriez mettre dans votre fichier de configuration au moins
> une entr‚ée de la forme suivante :"
> Is this OK, or should it be split in two lines? If so, may I ask the
> syntax for doing so?

Honestly don’t know. I don’t use kitten, cats or any of those NLS libs in favor 
of my own.

I’ve always preferred entries like

WELCOME_MSG=Hi there

to

1.7=Hi there.

But, that’s probably just me.

Anyhow, you should check with Mateusz for the specifics on how his programs 
handles NLS. 

> 
> Thanks a lot for your time.
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Missing FDOS utilities

[thraex]

On 18.05.2020 15:17, Jerome Shidel wrote:

> First, http://freedoslocal.sourceforge.net is no longer maintained. 

Indeed, that's a resource I miss sorely as a translator :(

> Occasionally, individuals have sent me translations for packages other
> than the ones I develop. With no good place to send them at present,
> I just started to funnel all translations into a new Github project
> at https://github.com/shidel/fd-nls 
> 
> At present, I’m thinking of it as a new temporary home for all of them. 

Hehe, I have bad news for you Jerome. I reviewed French translations and
I (or rather, the spellchecker and the Grammalecte tool) caught several
mistakes in choice, edlin, fc, fdnpkg, find, freecom_err, freecom_lng,
help, htmlhelp, md5sum, more, move, password, sort, trch, tree, and
xcopy. I already filed a report
() for FreeCOM containing the
updated translations, but for the remaining ones it looks like fd-nls
will be their new home (see ) :P

Also, I would have two questions:

Firstly, I noticed

now has 331 listings, whereas the file I had translated in 2018 has only
302. Do you have updated French & Turkish csv files so I can translate
new items that must be in English, or do I have to insert them manually
on my side (ugh)?

Secondly, I noticed certain translations (for isntance fdnpkg.fr) do not
comply with the limit of 80 characters per line.
Let's consider:
"2.6:Vous devriez mettre dans votre fichier de configuration au moins
une entr‚ée de la forme suivante :"
Is this OK, or should it be split in two lines? If so, may I ask the
syntax for doing so?

Thanks a lot for your time.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Missing FDOS utilities

[Jerome Shidel]

> On May 18, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Emir Yâsin SARI via Freedos-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> [..]
> I have updated a couple of translations, and opened a PR for them.

Thanks.

> 
>> The best solution, is to send translations to the actual developer of the 
>> individual project the translation was created.
> 
> I tend to disagree. AFAIS, it is really hard to find all the maintainers, and 
> chase them to update their version. Instead, maintaining them at the FDOS 
> organisation (each project would have their own maintainer and only the 
> maintainer would have the permission to edit) would contribute to a steady 
> development.
> 
> This would really help the FDOS release managers to update the latest strings 
> before a major release.
> 
> Regarding the remaining translations, I still have fdpkg, fc, tee, md5sum, 
> password and htmlhelp to update. I searched on the internet for the source 
> files, but most ibiblio links are dead and some of the source files have 
> conflicting message file contents/outdated. I would really appreciate help 
> regarding these files.
> 
> On the main Github org; edlin, find, sort have pending PRs for the 
> translations as well.

For now, it may be a good idea to setup a PR for my nls that contains all of 
those (fdpkg, edlin, etc)  as well. 

> 
> Thank you,
> Emir
> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Missing FDOS utilities

[Emir Yâsin SARI via Freedos-devel]

Hello,

Thank you Jerome for your reply.

> Jerome Shidel  şunları yazdı (18 May 2020 15:17):
> 
> But, that is mostly just normal management headaches.

To fix that, a common repository with all strings’ files would be an ideal 
intermediary solution. Each package maintainer would upload their strings, and 
translators could update as necessary. And it should be the translator’s 
responsibility to make sure that before a release all translations are updated.

> 
> Occasionally, individuals have sent me translations for packages other than 
> the ones I develop. With no good place to send them at present,
> I just started to funnel all translations into a new Github project at 
> https://github.com/shidel/fd-nls

I have updated a couple of translations, and opened a PR for them.

> The best solution, is to send translations to the actual developer of the 
> individual project the translation was created.

I tend to disagree. AFAIS, it is really hard to find all the maintainers, and 
chase them to update their version. Instead, maintaining them at the FDOS 
organisation (each project would have their own maintainer and only the 
maintainer would have the permission to edit) would contribute to a steady 
development.

This would really help the FDOS release managers to update the latest strings 
before a major release.

Regarding the remaining translations, I still have fdpkg, fc, tee, md5sum, 
password and htmlhelp to update. I searched on the internet for the source 
files, but most ibiblio links are dead and some of the source files have 
conflicting message file contents/outdated. I would really appreciate help 
regarding these files.

On the main Github org; edlin, find, sort have pending PRs for the translations 
as well.

Thank you,
Emir

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Missing FDOS utilities

[Jerome Shidel]

Hi,

> On May 18, 2020, at 7:23 AM, Emir Yâsin SARI via Freedos-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Lately I have been translating FreeDOS utilities into Turkish, and most of 
> them are merged into their respective master repositories, thank you very 
> much. After submitting the translations, thraex mentioned the site 
> http://freedoslocal.sourceforge.net/, in which complete FreeDOS utility 
> translations can be found. But when I glance at the FDOS Github organisation, 
> most of these utilities are missing, specifically:
> 
> password, move, compute, pause, fdpkg, trch, htmlhelp, md5sum, tee, help, fc.
> 
> Where are these utilities located? I’d like to review current translations 
> and submit updated ones before the test release for 1.3. It would be splendid 
> if these utilities were included within the Github FDOS organisation.
> 
> Thank you,
> Emir


Well, there are a couple issues. 

First, http://freedoslocal.sourceforge.net 
 is no longer maintained. 

Also, the way packages are structured does not really lend itself to doing 
quick and easy updates to its language translation.

For example, lets say we have a DPRUNE v1.23.
Someone submits a spanish translation. 
After we incorporate the translation, the version needs changed. 
Lets say, we change it to DPRUNE v1.23b.
Now we get a Russian Translation.
Rebuild the package as v1.23c
Now, the author of the releases an update as v1.23a with either ES or RU 
translations.
Ugh.

But, that is mostly just normal management headaches.

Occasionally, individuals have sent me translations for packages other than the 
ones I develop. With no good place to send them at present,
I just started to funnel all translations into a new Github project at 
https://github.com/shidel/fd-nls  

At present, I’m thinking of it as a new temporary home for all of them. 

The best solution, is to send translations to the actual developer of the 
individual project the translation was created.

I think for the time being, we may want to create a new package that just 
contains all of the unincorporated language translations. 
It could be updated at anytime and not require repacking any programs. Then 
when the program is updated, it could include the newest translations.

Another alternative would be to remove all translations from individual 
packages and put them in a language specific translation package. 

IDK. 

Jerome


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[Freedos-devel] Missing FDOS utilities

[Emir Yâsin SARI via Freedos-devel]

Hello everyone,

Lately I have been translating FreeDOS utilities into Turkish, and most of them 
are merged into their respective master repositories, thank you very much. 
After submitting the translations, thraex mentioned the site 
http://freedoslocal.sourceforge.net/, in which complete FreeDOS utility 
translations can be found. But when I glance at the FDOS Github organisation, 
most of these utilities are missing, specifically:

password, move, compute, pause, fdpkg, trch, htmlhelp, md5sum, tee, help, fc.

Where are these utilities located? I’d like to review current translations and 
submit updated ones before the test release for 1.3. It would be splendid if 
these utilities were included within the Github FDOS organisation.

Thank you,
Emir

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