Re: [Freedos-user] OpenGEM 5 freezes/hangs/locks on FreeDOS 0.9 SR2

2006-07-08 Thread John Hupp
In the course of off-list discussion, I tested this problem much more 
extensively than I reported here.  My own conclusion was similar to your 
Situation #3: HIMEM and EMM386 are not at issue, and OpenGEM has one or more 
incompatibilities with the FreeDOS kernel.

But I found further that the problem appeared on FAT32 partitions and not on 
FAT16 partitions.  Perhaps that will further narrow the inquiry.

--John Hupp

- Original Message - 
From: Michael Devore
To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 2:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] OpenGEM 5 freezes/hangs/locks on FreeDOS 0.9 SR2


At 11:38 AM 6/5/2006 -0400, John Hupp wrote:

I am using current stable:
kernel - 1.1.35 Build 2035b-cvs, 2006-05-21
freecom - 0.84-pre XMS_Swap, 2006-05-21
himem + emm386 - from emmx208 or emm208x ZIP archive

I might have added to the original post by saying that this problem does
not occur on an older 486 SX2-50 (no math coprocessor) in an ISA-only
motherboard.  Only on this newer Pentium 100 with PCI + ISA.

I could also have added that all my DOS games (Doom, Quake, Duke,
Spacequest, Beneath A Steel Sky) run fine on this computer and 
configuration.

On the chance that there was a physical memory problem I dropped from 16
to 8 MB (no difference), and then also swapped in the extra 8 MB (no
difference).

One thing I noticed in further testing was that Draw, Paint and Doodle
have the most problems.  All freehand programs.  And if they load
successfully, then they work until you try to close them.  Artline is
rather stable by comparison, though it does not seem to offer a freehand
tool, at least that I could find quickly.

If I drop all the way to no HIMEM and no EMM386, there is insufficient
memory to run Artline or Paint.  Draw, Write, Tetris, Scgem, and Fanwor
all seemed to work.  But Doodle locks the machine when it closes.

Okay, I tested OpenGEM 5 under FreeDOS and was able to get lockups at
various times, using HIMEM with or without EMM386 loaded.  Unfortunately, I
was also able to get out of memory errors and lockups after working with
different OpenGEM utilities under Microsoft HIMEM on a FreeDOS
kernel.  This was on a Athlon 3000+ machine.

The lockups were hard, i.e. Ctrl-Alt-Del did not recover.  This may be
because OpenGEM controls the keyboard vectoring, and it is possibly still
alive under the lockup, although for the user's purposes, that may be a
distinction without a difference.

Anyway, given that the problem occurs with Microsoft memory managers, I
believe you have one of three situations:

  1.  OpenGEM 5 has one or more operational bugs, OR
  2. OpenGEM 5 or its underlying language (TP?) has one or more problems
with very fast machines or machines with large amounts of free extended
memory, OR
  3. OpenGEM has one or more incompatibilities with the FreeDOS kernel.

I don't think whatever is happening is a fault of either FreeDOS HIMEM or
EMM386, since similar problems can occur without either loaded.



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Re: [Freedos-user] Russian by UTF-8 in FreeDOS?

2006-07-08 Thread Mateusz Viste
Dnia środa 05 lipiec 2006 19:52, Henrique Peron napisał:
 It should work for you in your AUTOEXEC.BAT file:

 DISPLAY CON=(,,3)
 MODE CON CODEPAGE PREPARE=((858,852) C:\FDOS\BIN\EGA.CPX)
 MODE CON CODEPAGE PREPARE=((,,808) C:\FDOS\BIN\EGA3.CPX)

 Then, you'll type MODE CON CODEPAGE SELECT=858 for french or 852 for polish
 or 808 for russian.

Indeed, it worked! It seems that my problem was that I was loading DISPLAY the 
wrong way. It could supports max. two codepages (polish and french), so when 
I tried to add the third (russian) it was just ignoring it. By the way, I 
don't knew that I could prepare several codepages, and then just selected 
which I needed. I usually stupidly repeated all the procedure every time I 
wanted to change the language (DISPLAY, PREPARE, SELECT...).
Anyway, thanks a lot!

I noticed that there are many various codepages for russian language in 
FreeDOS: 771, 772, 855, 872, 866, 808, 61282.
Could someone tell me what is the difference between them, and what should I 
use (which one is the most popular in Russia)?

Best regards,
Mateusz Viste Fox



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Re: [Freedos-user] OpenGEM 5 freezes/hangs/locks on FreeDOS 0.9 SR2

2006-07-08 Thread Shane M. Coughlan
John Hupp wrote:
 In the course of off-list discussion, I tested this problem much more 
 extensively than I reported here.  My own conclusion was similar to your 
 Situation #3: HIMEM and EMM386 are not at issue, and OpenGEM has one or more 
 incompatibilities with the FreeDOS kernel.
 But I found further that the problem appeared on FAT32 partitions and not on 
 FAT16 partitions.  Perhaps that will further narrow the inquiry.

John did indeed debug this quite extensively in a three-way conversation
with Eric and myself.  The results were:

PRELIMINARY CONCLUSION: FreeDOS FAT32 support in FreeCOM/Kernel
(wherever that support is located) seems to be the problem.

It is [...] interesting that not all GEM apps trigger problems under
FAT32.  Fgdoodle seems to be the worst, and then the other freehand
drawing apps Draw and Paint.  So graphical rendering methods connect those.

CASE 1: MS-DOS HIMEM on FAT32
   Gem Desktop locks at quit
   Draw, Doodle and Paint all lock at start

CASE 2: FreeDOS HIMEM on FAT32
   Gem Desktop quits OK
   Draw, Paint all start OK, allow me to scribble a bit, and quit OK
   Doodle locks at quit

CASE 3: MS-DOS HIMEM on FAT16
   Everything works OK

CASE 4: FreeDOS HIMEM on FAT16
   Everything works OK

OpenGEM runs fine on MS DOS machines running FAT32, as well as under
Windows running FAT32.

Regards

Shane

PS: John is my personal hero for having spent so much time working on this!

-- 
Shane Martin Coughlan
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
m: +447773180107 (UK) +353862262570 (Ire)
w: www.opendawn.com
---
OpenPGP: http://www.opendawn.com/shane/publickey.asc


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.0 in the news...

2006-07-08 Thread Aitor Santamaría
Hi,

  DRDOS has DPMI.  I assume FD could if it doesn't.

 What is the exact technical reason you can't start WfW 3.11 from
 FreeDOS? Is it the DPMI thing or something else?

I haven't looked much into this topic, but it cannot be the DPMI, as
when you run WIN then Microsoft's nice extender WIN386.EXE or if you
prefer VMM32.VXD (I've always loved the Win95 beta name, DOS386.EXE)
starts.

I guess there's a good reason why MS-DOS responds to the DOS386.EXE
start broadcast (whereas FreeDOS doesn't).

  For what this is worth, I am able to get FreeDOS with the Q stuff to run
  on newer MBs - AMD 64 -that fail with DRDOS.

 Yes, FreeDOS is great on modern hardware.

   They don't like EMM386; DR
  or FD.

 Yes, I've posted at great length about this in the past. I use UMBPCI at
 the moment.

  64 bit is a bit of a jump, but if you will settle for 32 bit - for now -
  I think we did most of that, it's called OS/2,

 Ah OK! Maybe it's time to look again at OS/2.

Well, OS/2 was promoted as better DOS than DOS, but I don't think
OS/2 is so well documented as to start Free-OS/2 (nice and interesting
attempt if you do :))

Aitor


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.0 in the news...

2006-07-08 Thread Arkady V.Belousov
Hi!

6-Июл-2006 22:10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerry Hickman) wrote to
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net:

 You mean you booted into MS-DOS 6.22 and then started WfW from within
 DOS 6.22? If so, I have to ask why??
GH No one has answered this part yet, especially why.

 There _was_ answer. See next line:

 That's actually how Windows 1.x-3.x worked ...

 Ie., Win3 was designed to work on runned MS-DOS. Not only MS-DOS 6.22 -
previous versions too.

GH Yes, if you means 3.0 I agree it's a shell around DOS. I don't agree in
GH the case of WfW 3.11

 No, all the same, except that 3.11 contains more drivers. Kernel, which
works over DOS, remains same.

 technically, Win95/98
 also worked a similar way, but Microsoft kind of changed things to make
 it not so obvious.
GH I think to claim a 32bit prot-mode o/s with a PnP driver model is a DOS
GH Shell is stretching it beyond belief.

 Application, which runs from DOS, and works with disks directly (say,
FDISK), but continues to use DOS services for other tasks, remains
DOS-application.

GH Does every 32bit API call map back to a DOS 6.22 software interrupt?

 Not necessary. But many. And same true for other DOS-programs - beside
DOS API, they use many things without accessing DOS. For example, screen IO
through BIOS or even directly to video memory.

 For Windows 3.11 (WFW) you boot into DOS, then you run win to start
 Windows.
GH Yes, but is it not the case that the startup files are different, plus

 Startup files are same.

GH it's prot-mode,

1. Previous versions also may work in PM (so called Enhanced mode).
2. DOS-protected programs also works in PM. So what?

GH and anyway is it not the case you are much better to run
GH it with it's own startup files, HIMEM, EMM386 and IFSHLP, as opposed to
GH the DOS 6.22 versions, especially for Networking?

 Wrong. MS-DOS 6.22 was much newer and it recommended to use
himem/emm386 from it, instead native ones.

 Think of Windows as being just like Norton File Commander, or
 MS-DOS DOSSHELL.
GH I can't.

 This is your trouble, not us.  :)

 Windows just sat on top of DOS and managed the
 multitasking.
GH As I said, a different o/s, the fact it was loaded from DOS 6.22 doesn't
GH mean it's just a DOS shell. If I booted WinXP from grub it doesn't
GH mean it's just a LINUX shell.

 But XP doesn't uses grub for its services and nowhere depends from its
functionality. Whereas Win3 (and W9x) does depends on DOS services (though,
W9x is less dependent, because it replaces most services on-the fly).

 Different issue is Novel Netware - this OS starts from DOS, but it
completely not depends on DOS in other things, so this is really
(independent) OS.

GH Eric mentioned in the past that DOS does
GH not have the sub-systems to allow multiple programs to read/write to the
GH NIC at the same time and to be able to queue them. In my view, this
GH makes WfW a different o/s.

 No. If I in my DOS-program implement asynchronous IO over serial lines,
this not makes my program different OS.

 Windows 3.11 (WFW) stopped using DOS for file i/o,

 Not necessary - only when runned special driver, which bypasses DOS
(and BIOS).

GH Exactly, but how did they invent new I/O that didn't rely on DOS?

 Because DOS doesn't deals with real IO, DOS only handles logical
structure of file system - whereas driver traps all IO requests and replaces
BIOS functionality.

GH Does Windows make calls direct to the hardware interrupts?

 Yes. But these _additional_ features do not untie Win3 dependency from
DOS in all other parts.

 Windows wasn't so much an operating system as an extension
 that leveraged DOS to do most of the behind the scenes work.  That's
 what Ray means with just a shell.
GH OK, let's agree it's just a shell for a minute; why would anyone want to
GH start it from within FreeDOS?

 Because those anyone expect replace non-free MS-DOS by free one.

GH In my view, it's a total mismatch. FreeDOS
GH doesn't pretend to be a prot-mode o/s

 Also as MS-DOS.

GH and anyway it runs much better in real mode at the moment.

 It runs same.

GH If it's going to a 32/64 bit prot-mode o/s

 ...then it stops be MS-DOS clone.

GH then
GH really it's time to forget the whole legacy thing and just create a
GH next generation 64bit command line o/s that supports endless memory,
GH multi-processors, multi-tasking, firmware BIOS, native SCSI, NTFS, NFS,
GH KERBEROS and SMB signing.

 There are a lot of already existing such OSes. For example, Linux or
Hurd.


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.0 in the news...

2006-07-08 Thread Arkady V.Belousov
Hi!

7-Июл-2006 10:28 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerry Hickman) wrote to
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net:

GH What is the exact technical reason you can't start WfW 3.11 from
GH FreeDOS? Is it the DPMI thing or something else?

 Some differences in kernel structure. And some unimplemented in FD API
calls, which used by Win3 to callback DOS.


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Re: [Freedos-user] OpenGEM 5 freezes/hangs/locks on FreeDOS 0.9 SR2

2006-07-08 Thread Kenneth J. Davis
Shane M. Coughlan wrote:

 John Hupp wrote:
 
In the course of off-list discussion, I tested this problem much more 
extensively than I reported here.  My own conclusion was similar to your 
Situation #3: HIMEM and EMM386 are not at issue, and OpenGEM has one or more 
incompatibilities with the FreeDOS kernel.
But I found further that the problem appeared on FAT32 partitions and not on 
FAT16 partitions.  Perhaps that will further narrow the inquiry.
 
 
 John did indeed debug this quite extensively in a three-way conversation
 with Eric and myself.  The results were:
 
 PRELIMINARY CONCLUSION: FreeDOS FAT32 support in FreeCOM/Kernel
 (wherever that support is located) seems to be the problem.
 
 It is [...] interesting that not all GEM apps trigger problems under
 FAT32.  Fgdoodle seems to be the worst, and then the other freehand
 drawing apps Draw and Paint.  So graphical rendering methods connect those.
 
...

Could you (off list if you want) send me a more or less detailed 
description of which files to get and run and I will see if I can find 
the kernel issue.  Two questions though, did you try with 4DOS or MS 
Command.com to rule out FreeCom issues (not sure why it would cause it, 
but I do know it sometimes causes weird issues) and was this with dev 
kernel, stable kernel, or both?

Thanks,
Jeremy




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Re: [Freedos-user] OpenGEM 5 freezes/hangs/locks on FreeDOS 0.9 SR2

2006-07-08 Thread John Hupp
My (pure) FreeDOS installation was as loaded by the 0.9 Beta SR2 CD, except 
that I updated the kernel and freecom.

I was using current *stable*:
kernel - 1.1.35 Build 2035b-cvs, 2006-05-21
freecom - 0.84-pre XMS_Swap, 2006-05-21
himem + emm386 - from emmx208 or emm208x ZIP archive (though that was a moot 
point when running tests without either)

You can run with a test configuration like this:

BUFFERS=30
FILES=40
SHELL=C:\command.com C:\ /E:512 /P=C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT
-
SET DOSDIR=C:\FDOS
SET TEMP=C:\FDOS\TEMP
SET TMP=C:\FDOS\TEMP
CTMOUSE

I was using OpenGEM Release 5, the Complete version downloadable from 
http://gem.shaneland.co.uk/fullversions.html

Install everything on a FAT32 partition to see the problem behavior (or on a 
FAT16 partition to see everything working fine).

The GEM apps triggering the problems are Doodle, Draw and Paint, though if 
you run without HIMEM you won't have enough memory to run Paint.

I did test with COMMAND.COM from MS-DOS 6.22 and got the same results as 
with FreeCOM.

--John Hupp

- Original Message - 
From: Kenneth J. Davis
To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] OpenGEM 5 freezes/hangs/locks on FreeDOS 0.9 SR2


Shane M. Coughlan wrote:

 John Hupp wrote:

In the course of off-list discussion, I tested this problem much more
extensively than I reported here.  My own conclusion was similar to your
Situation #3: HIMEM and EMM386 are not at issue, and OpenGEM has one or 
more
incompatibilities with the FreeDOS kernel.
But I found further that the problem appeared on FAT32 partitions and not 
on
FAT16 partitions.  Perhaps that will further narrow the inquiry.


 John did indeed debug this quite extensively in a three-way conversation
 with Eric and myself.  The results were:

 PRELIMINARY CONCLUSION: FreeDOS FAT32 support in FreeCOM/Kernel
 (wherever that support is located) seems to be the problem.

 It is [...] interesting that not all GEM apps trigger problems under
 FAT32.  Fgdoodle seems to be the worst, and then the other freehand
 drawing apps Draw and Paint.  So graphical rendering methods connect 
 those.

...

Could you (off list if you want) send me a more or less detailed
description of which files to get and run and I will see if I can find
the kernel issue.  Two questions though, did you try with 4DOS or MS
Command.com to rule out FreeCom issues (not sure why it would cause it,
but I do know it sometimes causes weird issues) and was this with dev
kernel, stable kernel, or both?

Thanks,
Jeremy




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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.0 in the news...

2006-07-08 Thread Gerry Hickman
Hi Arkady,

 GH Yes, but is it not the case that the startup files are different, plus
 
  Startup files are same.

Can you clarify what you mean here? How do you define same?

  Wrong. MS-DOS 6.22 was much newer and it recommended to use
 himem/emm386 from it, instead native ones.

Maybe this is where I'm getting mixed up. You appear to be saying DOS 
6.22 is much newer than WfW 3.11, is this correct? I thought it was the 
other way round.

-- 
Gerry Hickman (London UK)


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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.0 in the news...

2006-07-08 Thread Arkady V.Belousov
Hi!

8-Июл-2006 22:29 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerry Hickman) wrote to
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net:

 GH Yes, but is it not the case that the startup files are different, plus
  Startup files are same.
GH Can you clarify what you mean here? How do you define same?

 Identical or newer versions.

  Wrong. MS-DOS 6.22 was much newer and it recommended to use
 himem/emm386 from it, instead native ones.
GH Maybe this is where I'm getting mixed up. You appear to be saying DOS
GH 6.22 is much newer than WfW 3.11, is this correct?

 DOS 6.22 is end of 1994 (1994/08/19), Win 3.11 is middle of 1994
(1994/05/23).

GH I thought it was the other way round.


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[Freedos-user] New Release: EMM386 2.10, HIMEM 3.13

2006-07-08 Thread Michael Devore
Uploaded to ftp://ftp.devoresoftware.com/downloads/emm386/ are the files 
emmx210.zip, EMM386 version 2.10 and HIMEM version 3.13 memory managers, 
mostly executables; and emms210.zip, source code files for the new release.

The latest revisions (effectively completed in May) contain several 
compatibility modifications and two bugfixes.  The bugfixes apply to 
DOS-extended programs for certain DOS extenders running under large (256M) 
free memory conditions.  The compatibility modifications remove the need 
for a few programs to specify options or memory configurations to work 
correctly, and they stop VDS warning feedback for users of DiamondWare's 
Sound Toolkit (DWSTK).  Almost everyone is welcome and encouraged to give 
feedback on the revised memory managers, particularly should any problems 
persist.

As regular readers know, gory details follow:

First, the bugfixes.  Previously, EMS allocations were insufficiently 
coupled to VCPI allocations, meaning that sometimes the reported and actual 
EMS available for allocations did not take into account VCPI allocations 
already made from their pool (EMS and VCPI always share the same memory 
pool).  This was not instantly fatal to DOS extenders which depended on the 
information, but depending on their allocation strategies could confuse 
some extenders to the point of serious misbehavior, plus it was generally a 
bad idea that needed fixing.  So it was.

Second, the VCPI server, aka EMM386, did not temporarily reset linear 
memory to its own memory mapping via CR3 reload on direct calls to the 
server.  Since most memory tables lived within the common 4M memory shared 
with a VCPI client, this typically was not an issue.  However, if a target 
environment had more than around 256M free, and a DOS extender made 
protected mode calls back into EMM386 to allocate memory blocks (not all 
do), the memory page table mappings were large enough to extend beyond the 
shared 4M zone, and EMM386 tried to grab pages from memory that owned 
solely by the VCPI client.  This Is A Bad Thing And Made Bad Things 
Happen.  Since it has been established that I do not ever have any bugs in 
my code and the bug is indisputably present, the only logical explanation 
is the covert intervention of a malign deity.  Watch yourself while coding; 
dark forces gather to oppose FreeDOS 1.0.

Moving along to compatibility changes, EMM386 VDS function 0ch no longer 
returns an unsupported code.  It is treated as the no-op it effectively is 
under EMM386 and always returns success without warning feedback.  Also, 
VDS function 0bh silently returns an unsupported code without giving 
warning feedback.  Previously, both would give  feedback, which caused 
great consternation to users of DiamondWare's Sound Toolkit that made the 
function calls.  Riots ensued, dogs howled, and the entire student body of 
a women's college stripped to nothing and ran down the street...uhh, no, 
wait, that was last week's late night Cinemax movie that I had far too much 
self-respect to watch a single minute of.  Anyway, the warning message is 
gone with DWSTK under EMM386 and people should feel less worried about the 
whole thing.

EMM386 has a more efficient memory allocator when a user requests more 
memory be set-aside on the command line options than is available in the 
machine.  Previously EMM386 would divide by 2 until the request could be 
met.  So, if you requested 64M and 30M was available at startup, you would 
up with 16M.  Now, after failure on initial request, EMM386 tries to 
allocate all it can that it sees available, so in the example you should 
wind up with 30M, assuming no memory fragmentation.

Also, EMM386 reserves more XMS memory from ever being allocated by EMS/VCPI 
for those few goofy programs that always want a little bit of free XMS or 
else throw a tantrum.  386K is now reserved, of which FreeCOM usually 
chomps off about 100K or so, leaving between 256K and 300K XMS.

HIMEM now defaults to using the /X2MAX32 option, because two people have 
reported (buggy) applications that needed it.  Depending on what multiplier 
you use for reports vs. actual problems, that likely means 20, 200 or 2000 
people really need the option turned on.  Since it's such a silly thing 
anyway, I just decided to make it the default and avoid a bit of confusion 
in the world.  Also added was a new /NOX2MAX32 option to inhibit the 
/X2MAX32 behavior and restore the world to its normal state of affairs.

Oh yeah, XMS 3.0 function 88h was modified to have ECX correctly return the 
highest available memory address per XMS 3.0 specification.  Wooo, that 
might be a big deal and fix some problematic stuff you say?  Forget it, 
Microsoft's own HIMEM from MS-DOS 6.x screws it up and returns a garbage 
value.  Probably nothing uses the value, or should, anyway.

Finally, copyright messages were updated.  Yup, saved the biggest change 
for last.




Re: [Freedos-user] [Freedos-devel] New Release: EMM386 2.10, HIMEM 3.13

2006-07-08 Thread Michael Devore
At 10:18 PM 7/8/2006 -0500, Michael Devore wrote:

a bunch of stuff, but forgot to mention something people asked me about 
earlier

I used the newest release UPX 2.01d to compress this version of EMM386 and 
HIMEM.  It saved about 400 bytes for EMM386.EXE and 200 bytes for HIMEM.EXE 
over the old mutant UPX.

Yeaaa, the new UPX works with DOS EXE/SYS files.  Yeaaa, the UPX developers 
mentioned me in the THANKS file.  Yeaaa, big party at Jim Hall's house when 
FreeDOS 1.0 is released, free ice cream and pink lemonade for everyone.

Okay, I made that last part up.



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