Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi Thomas,


actually I was looking for a laptop with FreeDos using a photovoltaic system…


That should be relatively easy. Photovoltaics can output 12V DC,
230V AC with an inverter, or higher DV voltages directly via USB-C
which some newer laptops use for charging. However, those will not
usually have a BIOS, only EFI, so they cannot run DOS on hardware.

Running DOS on a not too new laptop is generally easy, but you
will almost never have WiFi / WLAN drivers for DOS and whether
popular DOS text or graphics modes look okay on the laptop screen
will vary depending on the model. Maybe a trial and error thing.

Or maybe some people here can recommend some laptop models :-)

I once tested DOS on an eeePC, which was okay, but as far as I
remember, popular resolutions had to be displayed either with
black bars or in a distorted and somewhat fuzzy zoom mode, so
it would probably take some experimenting to find a smooth mode.
Also, eeePC are too tiny for real work, I was just curious there.


(Is there DosBox for iPhones :?? )


There probably are some PC and/or DOS emulators for Android.

Interesting that you already knew Velotype!

Regarding mouse movement: In text mode, the mouse will jump
one character at at time. Of course there are graphics mode
based editors for DOS, too, like Blocek. Which may also have
the advantage that you could pick a graphics mode with better
match to your laptop screen size.


printers understanding plain text or PDF are easily available.


However, remember that text editors for DOS do not directly
output PDF, so you will need additional tools and steps from
text file to printout on paper.

I agree that Centronics no longer is popular for printers, but
if you want to run old printers on new PC, use an USB to LPT
adapter cable. I would hope generic DOS drivers exist for that.

Interestingly, with modern hardware, printing from DOS through
wired LAN to a network printer with PDF and/or PS or plain text
support might actually be less effort than using USB, but those
printers are probably more bulky than certain USB printer types.

Which brings in small external "print server" devices where you
can plug USB printers and a network to make printers networked.

Maybe some can also do the PDF rendering for "dumb" printers,
but the whole idea is getting close to "just use Raspberry Pi
or all that modern hardware and run a DOS window on that" ;-)

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

addendum: as an example about what i intend to say about "How smooth is the 
mouse in the character matrix of Dos?«

In the mentionend »Captain Blackbeard« you could regulate the »Mickeys« of your 
mouse mouvement or the size of the cursor. 

You can do this with modern OS of course, and maybe it is too much of a 
fiddleing inside a text editor, but, just regarding the question of ergonomics: 
what implications do such things *really* have? (And I know they do have a 
difference.) 

Also there is that nice videocast by Jim about changing the FONT in Dos. quite 
useful for a better reading experience of the text. And things like that.



> On 01.02.2024, at 12:50, Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Eric again!
> 
>> On 01.02.2024, at 12:26, Eric Auer via Freedos-user 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>>> Why a typewriter? Because where I write, I don’t have electricity (!).
>> 
>> Well there always is sun and photovoltaics...
> 
> sure: actually I was looking for a laptop with FreeDos using a photovoltaic 
> system…
> 
> (Is there DosBox for iPhones :?? ) - and have more problems later … and costs.
> Actually, the only good thing about a typewriter is the fact, that you can 
> hold sheets on paper with your text on it in your hand. Real stuff! No 
> »printing« later...
> 
>> 
>> What type of text input hardware would you like, given that you dislike the 
>> current style of keyboards? Apart from sliding a pen over an on-screen 
>> keyboard? Is your goal to enter text quickly? Maybe learn to Velotype :-)
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype
> 
> I know Velotype, it is quite difficult to learn, like PLOVER or STENO. 
> But speed is not my goal, rather ergonomics and workflow. 
> So I created my own keyboard and own layout for Germantexts. Quite different 
> result from what you know as a keyboard usage.
> (When ready I will post a documentation, maybe on Youtube, so you can have a 
> look.)
> 
> Actually the details of the ingredients are more important: how does the 
> mouse behave? How smooth is the mouse in the character matrix of Dos? How to 
> move inside the text document? How does the document react on changings made? 
> How select text and what to do with selected text? How to integrate it with 
> the file management? How insert characters with only one hand? (As the other 
> points at positions…) and so on. You see, it is about the revision stage, the 
> re-worlking and editing of a Text, not the speed of input. That would not be 
> a problem, like in live surtitleing or at court procedings etc. 
> 
>> 
>>> Every first letter of a new sentence appears with a lower case letter.
>> 
>> Autocorrect could fix that.
> 
> Actually it didn't. I had Autocorrect and Autocapitalization on - that VIM 
> app doesn’t do Autocapitalization on beginnings of sentences. Don’t ask my 
> why!
> 
> ( https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ivim/id1266544660 )
> 
>> 
>>> The road map of FreeDOS seems to me include compatibility with advancing 
>>> storage devices.
>>> And USB devices such as printers. Maybe networking.
>> 
>> 
>> but printers understanding plain text or PDF are easily available.
> 
> This is great info!  Thnx! (I was trying with the huge parallel printer cable 
> on the LPT1 port … - something which has become obsolete on newer machines, 
> right?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Alvah Whealton via Freedos-user]

Thomas, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post.

In it, you wrote:

*I would want to focus more on the topic of the tool itself, i.e. the
computer as a writing aid, or writing machine. Historically the computer
has nothing got to do with writing texts, and in some way I do see this
still today. Hardware and software are subject to a industrial model suited
for office work: sheets and calculation. *



I don't know if you've read the biographical book about Maxwell Perkins,
"Editor of Genius," or seen  the movie made from the book. Perkins was the
editor for Thomas Wolfe, who wrote not with a typewriter but with a pencil,
sometimes using the top of a refrigerator as a standing desk for his 6'6"
frame.  The result was sometimes a manuscript that required crates and a
wheelbarrow for its transport -- literally. No explanation is offered for
how Wolfe managed his overall handwritten document, but it was a
distraction-free method, at least in the sense we've been  using the term
here. Still, it required an army of typists to render a readable copy of
the raw material for Perkins, who then had to sit down with Wolfe to
collate the thousands of pages before the draft was ready for Perkins to
begin his real job.

The "industrial model suited for office work" can sometimes eliminate the
distractions created by the volume involved in one's own writing.
Admittedly, Wolfe is an extreme example.

I always enjoyed the Outline programs in DOS for my initial writing,
PCOutline being one of them. But volume was seldom one of my problems.


Al Whealton

On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 4:38 AM Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> these are all nice anecdotes!
>
> I would want to focus more on the topic of the tool itself, i.e. the
> computer as a writing aid, or writing machine. Historically the computer
> has nothing got to do with writing texts, and in some way I do see this
> still today. Hardware and software are subject to a industrial model suited
> for office work: sheets and calculation. Jef Raskin’s »Canon Cat« was a
> clever try, but not a sales success. He lost it against Steve Jobs computer
> »for everything and everyone«.
>
> (I am sure, someone hooked a coffe machine up to his MS-Word …? creating a
> macro for »cappucino« - Control-C or »double espresso« Control-Esc   ;) )
>
> I don’t like the way the standard keyboards are made (neither
> ergonomically nor logically) and how the mouse works (clicking with your
> right hand?? and getting RSI from clicking?!) and a couple of metaphores we
> take for granted (Num-Block?? Have problems to print out your Markdown
> file?? etc etc…)
>
> To say the truth as I see it: We are trapped in a »locked-in« system, like
> the standard keyboard. Maybe it softly is beginning to change (think about
> »split keyboards« and »alternative Layouts« and »ortholinear keyboards« or
> fancy pointing devices or just a »touch screen« - never solved problem for
> usage in writing, b.t.w.)
>
> The way a writer creates her texts might partially be a secret even to the
> person herself but when it comes to the actual act: You have to ask
> yourself: what are your tools?
>
> Honestly, the mechanical typwriter is not the solution. I am occasionally
> using a typwriter (Olympia Monica) and then I OCR my pages after writing to
> do some more editing on a Mac (BBedit). Why a typewriter? Because where I
> write, I don’t have electricity (!).
>
> Yes anyways we should start thinking how mouch energy goes into
> **unnecessary** computing (!!). Use energy savers on the computer!  Don’t
> use ChatGPT!
>
> > The estimated energy consumption of a Google search query is 0.0003 kWh
> (1.08 kJ). The estimated energy consumption of a ChatGPT-4 query is
> 0.001-0.01 kWh (3.6-36 kJ), depending on the model size and number of
> tokens processed.
> [...]
> > That means a single GPT query consumes 1,567%, or 15 times more energy
> than a Google search query. To put it in context, a 60W incandescent light
> bulb consumes 0.06kWh in an hour.
> [...]
> > Using AI requires not just electricity but water as well.
> (1)
>
>
> So when you finally *do* write (I call this first stage »drafting« to
> differentiate the stages in the work process), you can »draft« your text on
> *any* device.
>
> As Jim Hall rightly puts it: »constantly spinning your wheels«, is NOT
> writing.
>
> Yes, Andrew, you are right: Writing means RE-Writing, or - as I call it
> »editing«.
>
> In this "revision stage" the actual deficiencies of our
> calculating-machines-as-writing-machines start to appear. There is a ton of
> things which are objectively ridiculous in today’s setups.
>
> My latest experience was the idea to write on an iPad Pro using the Apple
> Pencil as input device and the »swype« function to »draw words« on the tiny
> onscreen keyboard. It sort-of works actually quite well, despite the fact
> that you have to access a second layer for interpunctions. Absurd! - A »VIM
> - 

Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Hi Eric again!

> On 01.02.2024, at 12:26, Eric Auer via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
>> Why a typewriter? Because where I write, I don’t have electricity (!).
> 
> Well there always is sun and photovoltaics...

sure: actually I was looking for a laptop with FreeDos using a photovoltaic 
system…

(Is there DosBox for iPhones :?? ) - and have more problems later … and costs.
Actually, the only good thing about a typewriter is the fact, that you can hold 
sheets on paper with your text on it in your hand. Real stuff! No »printing« 
later...

> 
> What type of text input hardware would you like, given that you dislike the 
> current style of keyboards? Apart from sliding a pen over an on-screen 
> keyboard? Is your goal to enter text quickly? Maybe learn to Velotype :-)
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype

I know Velotype, it is quite difficult to learn, like PLOVER or STENO. 
But speed is not my goal, rather ergonomics and workflow. 
So I created my own keyboard and own layout for Germantexts. Quite different 
result from what you know as a keyboard usage.
(When ready I will post a documentation, maybe on Youtube, so you can have a 
look.)

Actually the details of the ingredients are more important: how does the mouse 
behave? How smooth is the mouse in the character matrix of Dos? How to move 
inside the text document? How does the document react on changings made? How 
select text and what to do with selected text? How to integrate it with the 
file management? How insert characters with only one hand? (As the other points 
at positions…) and so on. You see, it is about the revision stage, the 
re-worlking and editing of a Text, not the speed of input. That would not be a 
problem, like in live surtitleing or at court procedings etc. 

> 
>> Every first letter of a new sentence appears with a lower case letter.
> 
> Autocorrect could fix that.

Actually it didn't. I had Autocorrect and Autocapitalization on - that VIM app 
doesn’t do Autocapitalization on beginnings of sentences. Don’t ask my why!

( https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ivim/id1266544660 )

> 
>> The road map of FreeDOS seems to me include compatibility with advancing 
>> storage devices.
>> And USB devices such as printers. Maybe networking.
> 
> 
> but printers understanding plain text or PDF are easily available.

This is great info!  Thnx! (I was trying with the huge parallel printer cable 
on the LPT1 port … - something which has become obsolete on newer machines, 
right?)




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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi!


Why a typewriter? Because where I write, I don’t have electricity (!).


Well there always is sun and photovoltaics...

What type of text input hardware would you like, given that you dislike 
the current style of keyboards? Apart from sliding a pen over an 
on-screen keyboard? Is your goal to enter text quickly? Maybe learn to 
Velotype :-)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype


The estimated energy consumption of a Google search query is 0.0003 kWh (1.08 
kJ). The estimated energy consumption of a ChatGPT-4 query is 0.001-0.01 kWh 
(3.6-36 kJ)

[...]

That means a single GPT query consumes 1,567%, or 15 times more energy


But 36 / 1.08 would even be 33, not 15?


Every first letter of a new sentence appears with a lower case letter.


Autocorrect could fix that.


The road map of FreeDOS seems to me include compatibility with advancing 
storage devices.
And USB devices such as printers. Maybe networking.


I think it already does support printers and WIRED networking. For
wireless, you can use a small external device as a proxy. Note that
some printers are not smart enough and have to be fed pixel data,
for which DOS drivers usually are not available and not planned,
but printers understanding plain text or PDF are easily available.

You can connect printers using USB, printer port or network. And you can 
again use small external devices as proxy, or even adapter cables, to 
make more combinations work with DOS.


Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Hi Andrew, 

these are all nice anecdotes! 

I would want to focus more on the topic of the tool itself, i.e. the computer 
as a writing aid, or writing machine. Historically the computer has nothing got 
to do with writing texts, and in some way I do see this still today. Hardware 
and software are subject to a industrial model suited for office work: sheets 
and calculation. Jef Raskin’s »Canon Cat« was a clever try, but not a sales 
success. He lost it against Steve Jobs computer »for everything and everyone«.

(I am sure, someone hooked a coffe machine up to his MS-Word …? creating a 
macro for »cappucino« - Control-C or »double espresso« Control-Esc   ;) ) 

I don’t like the way the standard keyboards are made (neither ergonomically nor 
logically) and how the mouse works (clicking with your right hand?? and getting 
RSI from clicking?!) and a couple of metaphores we take for granted 
(Num-Block?? Have problems to print out your Markdown file?? etc etc…)

To say the truth as I see it: We are trapped in a »locked-in« system, like the 
standard keyboard. Maybe it softly is beginning to change (think about »split 
keyboards« and »alternative Layouts« and »ortholinear keyboards« or fancy 
pointing devices or just a »touch screen« - never solved problem for usage in 
writing, b.t.w.)

The way a writer creates her texts might partially be a secret even to the 
person herself but when it comes to the actual act: You have to ask yourself: 
what are your tools? 

Honestly, the mechanical typwriter is not the solution. I am occasionally using 
a typwriter (Olympia Monica) and then I OCR my pages after writing to do some 
more editing on a Mac (BBedit). Why a typewriter? Because where I write, I 
don’t have electricity (!). 

Yes anyways we should start thinking how mouch energy goes into **unnecessary** 
computing (!!). Use energy savers on the computer!  Don’t use ChatGPT!

> The estimated energy consumption of a Google search query is 0.0003 kWh (1.08 
> kJ). The estimated energy consumption of a ChatGPT-4 query is 0.001-0.01 kWh 
> (3.6-36 kJ), depending on the model size and number of tokens processed.
[...]
> That means a single GPT query consumes 1,567%, or 15 times more energy than a 
> Google search query. To put it in context, a 60W incandescent light bulb 
> consumes 0.06kWh in an hour.
[...]
> Using AI requires not just electricity but water as well.
(1)


So when you finally *do* write (I call this first stage »drafting« to 
differentiate the stages in the work process), you can »draft« your text on 
*any* device. 

As Jim Hall rightly puts it: »constantly spinning your wheels«, is NOT writing. 

Yes, Andrew, you are right: Writing means RE-Writing, or - as I call it 
»editing«. 

In this "revision stage" the actual deficiencies of our 
calculating-machines-as-writing-machines start to appear. There is a ton of 
things which are objectively ridiculous in today’s setups. 

My latest experience was the idea to write on an iPad Pro using the Apple 
Pencil as input device and the »swype« function to »draw words« on the tiny 
onscreen keyboard. It sort-of works actually quite well, despite the fact that 
you have to access a second layer for interpunctions. Absurd! - A »VIM - App« 
for iPad allows for extra buttons to insert interpunctions. Nice. But wait: VIM 
on an iPad? How absurd is that idea?! And… There is another problem: Every 
first letter of a new sentence appears with a lower case letter.  

And the hurdles just start to multiply. Every used a text editor on an iPad? 
Did someone say »distraction free« ?? And so on and so on… 

Experiences like the one I had unveil that nowbody actually seems to have 
thought to create a really proper working system, nor an industrial devide for 
writing for ordinary people, rather following down the industrial standard a 
»all purpose machine« and gadgets like iPads as entertainment devices. 

I was surprised when I learned of FreeDOS that the main use of it seems that 
people can play old computer games… Really?

The road map of FreeDOS seems to me include compatibility with advancing 
storage devices. And USB devices such as printers. Maybe networking. 
That is cool. Even the tiniest CLI Linux cannot compete with the simplicity of 
DOS. (HAIKU OS or MENUET OS someone? Forget it!) And no nagging »update me« and 
spying and cookies and so on.

I am much interested in seeing more integrated and single use devices for 
writing. The »freewriter« and the »AlphaSmart« (obsolete) are made looking in 
this direction, but not made for the revisioning and editing stage. Useless for 
me. Who would really need a crippled computer which still is a fragile 
electronic device, only to carry it to your corner shop for writing and sipping 
a »latte«?

Also the »input methods« are of great interest to me. The motto for me is: Take 
back control over the machine! - keep writing, folks!

(That is, by the way, why I like FreeDos.)


Thomas

Source:
(1) 

Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[andrew fabbro via Freedos-user]

On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 12:57 PM Jim Hall via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> It's a different sort of thing, but a colleague shared his editor's
> advice to write in a way that makes it difficult to go back and edit
> what you've done, while you're writing it. The idea is that you don't
> spend time "editing as you go" - constantly spinning your wheels,
> editing what you just wrote when you should be focusing on writing new
> stuff - and instead do all your editing and revisions after you've
> finished a full draft of something (article, chapter, etc).
>

There's a simpler solution: turn off your monitor :-)   I actually read
that in a fiction writing book once (Frey's *How to Write a Damn Good Novel*
 IIRC).

The "don't revise while you edit" is good advice but in my experience it's
more about consciously not getting bogged down and not using revising as an
excuse.  But you're going to spend far more time rewriting than rewriting,
anyway.  Writing is fundamentally rewriting, not writing.

TBH, none of the pro writers I know use any kind of "distraction free"
setup.  Most of them are writing on Scrivener for macOS (which I used) or
Word for Windows.  If you're going to write a book, you write a book and
distractions aren't going to get in your way.  I've written three books and
did them all on Scrivener for macOS.  If I was going to get distracted, I'd
find a way even if I was carving cuneiform.

But whatever works for you!  The history of alternate writing methods is
long.  Jack Kerouac bought a roll of butcher paper and fed it into a
typewriter and wrote the first draft of *On the Road* as one long
continuous scroll.  Tom Robbins wrote all of his novels one sentence at a
time...drafting it it in his mind, debating it, perfecting it, and then
committing it on his typewriter, and he never revised.  When he'd written
his last sentence, he sent the stack of papers to his publisher.  I'm not
endorsing Kerouac or Robbins' results but writers have tried all kinds of
things and there is no one method that fits everyone.

On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 11:13 AM Ben Collver via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> If there's a "Walden" for computer programmers, it would be a 4:3
> display running DOS where coding can be done without any modern day
> annoying interruptions.
>

I disagree.  The perfect coding environment is radically different than the
perfect fiction writing environment.  When I'm writing code, I want
reference docs, PDFs of books, StackOverflow, ChatGPT, manuals, my own
library of examples, etc.

Even when I'm writing nonfiction articles (which I do every day), I'm
pulling in info from the web, books, etc.

As always, YMMV.
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Liam Proven via Freedos-user]

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 at 18:26, Santiago Almenara via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> It is a 2014 article, I believe he might have discovered Youtube, Email, 
> Facebook and all other distractions.
> He haven't written any complete book since 2011, except for short stories. :(

I last met GRRM in 2019 although I first did in 1995, when the first
ASOIAF book came out.

I suspect, but cannot prove, that at some point his publicists quietly
took a decade off his public age or DoB.

He's written before about being an unstructured, improvisational sort
of writer, and I think having the framework of the AGOT TV series has
stifled his creativity.

Damned shame. He is a very fine writer & I'd been enjoying his SF
since the 1970s.

I mentioned in a comment to my day job the other day the idea of Corel
buying up DR DOS Inc and doing a bootable live USB with DOS
WordPerfect. There was some enthusiastic approval of this notion.

I have been working on such a thing myself for 5Y now but 4Y ago I had
a daughter and being a dad in my 50s has got in the way...

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053


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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

The Captain_Blackbeard test editor actually has a couple of nifty ideas 
realized.

Ex.g. 
the company delivered the editor with helper programs: 

- a little program that generates a help file and a manual of the editor based 
on the key bindings you have chosen yourself. So those helpers are always 
corresponding to the real bindings.

- another super small »one task« program generates a neat list of my project 
directory contents. Writing a multi-chapter text, this comes in very handy for 
commenting my text-files.

my use of this: -> I find the  8.3 format of the file naming convention kind of 
difficult to name my files. Besides haveing my »system« to this, creating a 
text-file which lists acutal files and make comments there is a nice workaround 
to a larger writing project. Actually even better for me then using »comment« 
or »tag« functions like in the MacOs! (Easy print out and read it on paper, 
using colored pencils, yeah!)

- the line drawing capacities inside the editor. (Obsolete today…?)
Uses the extended ASCII semigraphic Box-drawing characters, also known as 
line-drawing characters in a clever way.

- chose the width of your cursor shape directly in the program’s options 

and more… great stuff and many brilliant ideas which work.

 

Looking at new text editors: Are we constantly re-inventing the wheel? 

Even the rather more recent »multi-cursor« feature was partly realized already 
in the 80ies
(select a colum block would print any character you hit in all those lines!)

Looking at a tablet and speaking of »distraction-free": Who possible can WORK 
texts with such a gimmick?




> On 29.01.2024, at 19:55, Jim Hall via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> and let’s mention »Captain Blackbeard« editor. Also great!
>> 
> 
> That's an editor I hadn't heard of (there were a million text editors
> in the DOS era) so I looked it up:
> http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Captain_Blackbeard
> 
> Very interesting programmer's editor.
> 



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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[John Vella via Freedos-user]

I've got a similar setup, however I use WordPerfect 5.1. I really am too
easily distracted!

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024, 22:52 Dan Schmidt via Freedos-user, <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Now, that's an interesting use for a Dos/FreeDos retro computer:
>
>
> https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/14/5716232/george-r-r-martin-uses-dos-wordstar-to-write
>
> How many computers destined for the landfill still have perfectly good
> screens and keyboards?  (Recalling those heavy, grey, indestructible PS2
> keyboards where the keys snapped back up with a vigour that seemed to sent
> your fingers flying on to the next character)  Now, I might have gone with
> WordPerfect 6 instead of WordStar 4, but the idea itself is solid: A
> computer that you just use for writing, sans distractions. No YouTube, no
> Email, no Facebook - you sit - you write.  I mean, it's hard to argue it
> didn't work well for this guy!
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

the real distraction is … you

> On 29.01.2024, at 19:55, Jim Hall via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thomas Cornelius Desi wrote:
>> 
>> Apropos authoring on DOS Software: As I was looking for
>> someting nifty that would enhance my writing workflow on
>> the computer, I decided for VDE by Eric Meyer writer.
>> ( have a look here: https://archive.org/details/vde-197 )
>> It actually does sort-of-UTF8 encoding which in my case
>> (German Umlaute äöü ß) is important.  And yes: why has
>> it become so cumbersome to switch of internet-connections?!
> 
> It's a different sort of thing, but a colleague shared his editor's
> advice to write in a way that makes it difficult to go back and edit
> what you've done, while you're writing it. The idea is that you don't
> spend time "editing as you go" - constantly spinning your wheels,
> editing what you just wrote when you should be focusing on writing new
> stuff - and instead do all your editing and revisions after you've
> finished a full draft of something (article, chapter, etc).
> 
> I tried his advice, and I have been (unironically) writing articles
> using Edlin or ed(1) at home. (That's why I had the "comma" question
> last week.) I write my content in plain text using Markdown, which
> makes it easy to do simple formatting like section headings, bold, and
> italics. When I'm done with my draft, I run the Markdown command to
> convert to HTML, open it in a browser and copy/paste into a word
> processor - where I'll finish editing before I submit. It works well
> for what I do. And it's the ultimate in "distraction free" writing.
> :-)
> 
> 
>> and let’s mention »Captain Blackbeard« editor. Also great!
>> 
> 
> That's an editor I hadn't heard of (there were a million text editors
> in the DOS era) so I looked it up:
> http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Captain_Blackbeard
> 
> Very interesting programmer's editor.
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

There is even software that shuts down if you stop writing for more than a 
couple fo seconds. ouch!

And here is a funny writing software, unfortunately only for Windows …
It only lets you write like on a Typwriter. But you can save it either as html 
single pages or as a txt - file. 

https://www.softpedia.com/get/Office-tools/Other-Office-Tools/Keep-Writing.shtml



> On 29.01.2024, at 19:55, Jim Hall via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thomas Cornelius Desi wrote:
>> 
>> Apropos authoring on DOS Software: As I was looking for
>> someting nifty that would enhance my writing workflow on
>> the computer, I decided for VDE by Eric Meyer writer.
>> ( have a look here: https://archive.org/details/vde-197 )
>> It actually does sort-of-UTF8 encoding which in my case
>> (German Umlaute äöü ß) is important.  And yes: why has
>> it become so cumbersome to switch of internet-connections?!
> 
> It's a different sort of thing, but a colleague shared his editor's
> advice to write in a way that makes it difficult to go back and edit
> what you've done, while you're writing it. The idea is that you don't
> spend time "editing as you go" - constantly spinning your wheels,
> editing what you just wrote when you should be focusing on writing new
> stuff - and instead do all your editing and revisions after you've
> finished a full draft of something (article, chapter, etc).
> 
> I tried his advice, and I have been (unironically) writing articles
> using Edlin or ed(1) at home. (That's why I had the "comma" question
> last week.) I write my content in plain text using Markdown, which
> makes it easy to do simple formatting like section headings, bold, and
> italics. When I'm done with my draft, I run the Markdown command to
> convert to HTML, open it in a browser and copy/paste into a word
> processor - where I'll finish editing before I submit. It works well
> for what I do. And it's the ultimate in "distraction free" writing.
> :-)
> 
> 
>> and let’s mention »Captain Blackbeard« editor. Also great!
>> 
> 
> That's an editor I hadn't heard of (there were a million text editors
> in the DOS era) so I looked it up:
> http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Captain_Blackbeard
> 
> Very interesting programmer's editor.
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Jim Hall via Freedos-user]

Thomas Cornelius Desi wrote:
>
> Apropos authoring on DOS Software: As I was looking for
> someting nifty that would enhance my writing workflow on
> the computer, I decided for VDE by Eric Meyer writer.
> ( have a look here: https://archive.org/details/vde-197 )
> It actually does sort-of-UTF8 encoding which in my case
> (German Umlaute äöü ß) is important.  And yes: why has
> it become so cumbersome to switch of internet-connections?!

It's a different sort of thing, but a colleague shared his editor's
advice to write in a way that makes it difficult to go back and edit
what you've done, while you're writing it. The idea is that you don't
spend time "editing as you go" - constantly spinning your wheels,
editing what you just wrote when you should be focusing on writing new
stuff - and instead do all your editing and revisions after you've
finished a full draft of something (article, chapter, etc).

I tried his advice, and I have been (unironically) writing articles
using Edlin or ed(1) at home. (That's why I had the "comma" question
last week.) I write my content in plain text using Markdown, which
makes it easy to do simple formatting like section headings, bold, and
italics. When I'm done with my draft, I run the Markdown command to
convert to HTML, open it in a browser and copy/paste into a word
processor - where I'll finish editing before I submit. It works well
for what I do. And it's the ultimate in "distraction free" writing.
:-)


> and let’s mention »Captain Blackbeard« editor. Also great!
>

That's an editor I hadn't heard of (there were a million text editors
in the DOS era) so I looked it up:
http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Captain_Blackbeard

Very interesting programmer's editor.


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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Yeah, sure, Martin writes on Word perfect. Still does. 

> On 29.01.2024, at 19:24, Santiago Almenara via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> It is a 2014 article, I believe he might have discovered Youtube, Email, 
> Facebook and all other distractions.
> He haven't written any complete book since 2011, except for short stories. :(
> 
> El sáb, 27 ene 2024 a la(s) 5:52 p.m., Dan Schmidt via Freedos-user 
> (freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net 
> ) escribió:
>> Now, that's an interesting use for a Dos/FreeDos retro computer:
>> 
>> https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/14/5716232/george-r-r-martin-uses-dos-wordstar-to-write
>> 
>> How many computers destined for the landfill still have perfectly good 
>> screens and keyboards?  (Recalling those heavy, grey, indestructible PS2 
>> keyboards where the keys snapped back up with a vigour that seemed to sent 
>> your fingers flying on to the next character)  Now, I might have gone with 
>> WordPerfect 6 instead of WordStar 4, but the idea itself is solid: A 
>> computer that you just use for writing, sans distractions. No YouTube, no 
>> Email, no Facebook - you sit - you write.  I mean, it's hard to argue it 
>> didn't work well for this guy!
>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Santiago Almenara via Freedos-user]

It is a 2014 article, I believe he might have discovered Youtube, Email,
Facebook and all other distractions.
He haven't written any complete book since 2011, except for short stories.
:(

El sáb, 27 ene 2024 a la(s) 5:52 p.m., Dan Schmidt via Freedos-user (
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net) escribió:

> Now, that's an interesting use for a Dos/FreeDos retro computer:
>
>
> https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/14/5716232/george-r-r-martin-uses-dos-wordstar-to-write
>
> How many computers destined for the landfill still have perfectly good
> screens and keyboards?  (Recalling those heavy, grey, indestructible PS2
> keyboards where the keys snapped back up with a vigour that seemed to sent
> your fingers flying on to the next character)  Now, I might have gone with
> WordPerfect 6 instead of WordStar 4, but the idea itself is solid: A
> computer that you just use for writing, sans distractions. No YouTube, no
> Email, no Facebook - you sit - you write.  I mean, it's hard to argue it
> didn't work well for this guy!
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Louis Santillan via Freedos-user]

You may also be interested in the Blocek editor -
http://www.laaca.borec.cz/blocek/#blocek

On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 7:55 AM Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Apropos authoring on DOS Software: As I was looking for someting nifty
> that would enhance my writing workflow on the computer, I decided for
> VDE by Eric Meyer writer. ( have a look here:
> https://archive.org/details/vde-197 )
>  It actually does sort-of-UTF8 encoding which in my case (German Umlaute
> äöü ß) is important.
> And yes: why has it become so cumbersome to switch of
> internet-connections?!
>
> and let’s mention »Captain Blackbeard« editor. Also great!
>
>
> > On 29.01.2024, at 16:44, Jim Hall via Freedos-user <
> freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> >
> > Mart Zirnask wrote:
> >>> As for writers with DOS, I recalled and managed to dig up a video with
> >>> Philip Roth using a standing desk and a Blue DOS Screen - is this also
> >>> Wordstar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBlVEcMSOGw=201
> >>>
> >>> The video is dated 2004, though - back then, I imagine it was not that
> >>> uncommon yet to use a DOS wordprcessor.
> >
> > Louis Santillan wrote:
> >>
> >> That looks like Wordperfect for DOS.
> >
> > Agreed, that's definitely WordPerfect for DOS at 3:30 in the video.
> > And a few seconds earlier at 3:25, you can see the WordPerfect
> > template over the Model M function keys.
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Anton Shepelev via Freedos-user]

Anton Shepelev:
> Jim Hall:
>
> > No ChatGPT assistant/coauthor.
>
> "Doesn't have ChatGPT or a co-author tool" is actually not
> a problem for a professional writer. It can actually be a
> bonus. :-)

Yes, but the temptation to use such a tool is great, and the
commerical pressure quite strong.  I for one want pure human
art, and now there is no way to make sure a novel, digital
image, music track, or movie is AI-free.



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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Apropos authoring on DOS Software: As I was looking for someting nifty that 
would enhance my writing workflow on the computer, I decided for 
VDE by Eric Meyer writer. ( have a look here:  
https://archive.org/details/vde-197 ) 
 It actually does sort-of-UTF8 encoding which in my case (German Umlaute äöü ß) 
is important. 
And yes: why has it become so cumbersome to switch of internet-connections?!

and let’s mention »Captain Blackbeard« editor. Also great!


> On 29.01.2024, at 16:44, Jim Hall via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mart Zirnask wrote:
>>> As for writers with DOS, I recalled and managed to dig up a video with
>>> Philip Roth using a standing desk and a Blue DOS Screen - is this also
>>> Wordstar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBlVEcMSOGw=201
>>> 
>>> The video is dated 2004, though - back then, I imagine it was not that
>>> uncommon yet to use a DOS wordprcessor.
> 
> Louis Santillan wrote:
>> 
>> That looks like Wordperfect for DOS.
> 
> Agreed, that's definitely WordPerfect for DOS at 3:30 in the video.
> And a few seconds earlier at 3:25, you can see the WordPerfect
> template over the Model M function keys.
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Jim Hall via Freedos-user]

Mart Zirnask wrote:
>> As for writers with DOS, I recalled and managed to dig up a video with
>> Philip Roth using a standing desk and a Blue DOS Screen - is this also
>> Wordstar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBlVEcMSOGw=201
>>
>> The video is dated 2004, though - back then, I imagine it was not that
>> uncommon yet to use a DOS wordprcessor.

Louis Santillan wrote:
>
> That looks like Wordperfect for DOS.

Agreed, that's definitely WordPerfect for DOS at 3:30 in the video.
And a few seconds earlier at 3:25, you can see the WordPerfect
template over the Model M function keys.


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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Jim Hall via Freedos-user]

> Dan Schmidt wrote:
> > Now, I might have gone with WordPerfect 6 instead of
> > WordStar 4, but the idea itself is solid: A computer that
> > you just use for writing, sans distractions. No YouTube,
> > no Email, no Facebook -- you sit -- you write.  I mean,
> > it's hard to argue it didn't work well for this guy!


Anton Shepelev wrote:
> No ChatGPT assistant/coauthor.


"Doesn't have ChatGPT or a co-author tool" is actually not a problem
for a professional writer. It can actually be a bonus. :-)


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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Anton Shepelev via Freedos-user]

Dan Schmidt:

> Now, I might have gone with WordPerfect 6 instead of
> WordStar 4, but the idea itself is solid: A computer that
> you just use for writing, sans distractions. No YouTube,
> no Email, no Facebook -- you sit -- you write.  I mean,
> it's hard to argue it didn't work well for this guy!

No ChatGPT assistant/coauthor.



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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Louis Santillan via Freedos-user]

That looks like Wordperfect for DOS.

On Sat, Jan 27, 2024 at 9:29 PM Mart Zirnask via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
[SNIP]

> As for writers with DOS, I recalled and managed to dig up a video with
> Philip Roth using a standing desk and a Blue DOS Screen - is this also
> Wordstar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBlVEcMSOGw=201
>
> The video is dated 2004, though - back then, I imagine it was not that
> uncommon yet to use a DOS wordprcessor.
>
> Greetings from Estonia,
> Mart
>
> 1: http://tinycorelinux.net/
> 2: http://tedfelix.com/qbasic/ (Haven't made my translation public yet
> - nor informed the author -, but eventually might do this as well.)
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Mart Zirnask via Freedos-user]

A "distraction free" writing environment was probably one of the
reasons I tested out FreeDOS at one point. I think it must also be the
fastest-booting distraction-free system of its kind these days? Even
as compared to some bare-bones ram-booted Linux like my beloved Tiny
Core [1]. It literally takes 2 seconds to press the power button and
get to the text editor that is configured to auto-launch via
autoexec.bat.

I think the idea of having a system that can be configured with just 2
files (config.sys and autoexec.bat) might also appeal to many of those
distraction free system seeker types. The entire system is at your
fingertips, and well understandable to tech-curious-but-not-uber-geeky
users.

Also, I've started to teach our son programming with QBasic (it feels
kind of weird to state this - but it is till an incredibly good
teaching environment and language, particularly for children who are
non-native English speakers). Currently we're using dosemu on Linux,
but I've often thought that a bootable USB thumb drive with
FreeDOS/SvarDOS and QBasic launched via autoexec.bat would make an
even better environment. A lock-in, in a positive sense -- the child
would not feel the urge to alt-tab to Minercaft or Firefox if he is
booted to a system where all he can do is use QBasic. It would also be
impossible to mess things up with keypresses that conflict with the
main OS (Linux or Windows; we've had an issue with him always pressing
the Windows key by accident). I have already observed that the Blue
Screen of QBasic does create a noticeable "flow state" of learning for
our 10yo son. Especially when paired with the instant feedback the
user gets from an environment like QBasic.

In fact, I actually went as far as translating a great QBasic tutorial
by Ted Felix into our language (Estonian) [2]. It is a joy to watch a
2024 10yo kid Actually Reading The Spiral-Bound Printout and typing in
the exercises. n=1, but I can confirm that this "oldschool" way of
teaching programming does still seem to work, provided you have
teaching material as good as this Ted Felix tutorial (and, maybe, a
child who already likes to read paper books).

As for writers with DOS, I recalled and managed to dig up a video with
Philip Roth using a standing desk and a Blue DOS Screen - is this also
Wordstar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBlVEcMSOGw=201

The video is dated 2004, though - back then, I imagine it was not that
uncommon yet to use a DOS wordprcessor.

Greetings from Estonia,
Mart

1: http://tinycorelinux.net/
2: http://tedfelix.com/qbasic/ (Haven't made my translation public yet
- nor informed the author -, but eventually might do this as well.)

On 28/01/2024, Jim Hall via Freedos-user
 wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 27, 2024 at 4:51 PM Dan Schmidt via Freedos-user
>  wrote:
>>
>> Now, that's an interesting use for a Dos/FreeDOS retro computer:
>>
>> https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/14/5716232/george-r-r-martin-uses-dos-wordstar-to-write
>>
>> How many computers destined for the landfill still have perfectly good
>> screens and keyboards?  (Recalling those heavy, grey, indestructible
>> PS2 keyboards where the keys snapped back up with a vigour that
>> seemed to sent your fingers flying on to the next character)  Now,
>> I might have gone with WordPerfect 6 instead of WordStar 4, but the
>> idea itself is solid: A computer that you just use for writing, sans
>> distractions. No YouTube, no Email, no Facebook - you sit - you write.
>> I mean, it's hard to argue it didn't work well for this guy!
>
> I know I'm kind of an odd duck among my friends, but I'm with George
> R.R. Martin on this. (Not the first time I've seen this article from
> 2014.) DOS is pretty good at the distraction-free environment,
> necessitated by the limitations of the era. A distraction-free
> environment is great for certain kinds of work, especially writing.
>
> Actually, I've seen other, similar articles from different writers who
> do the same. There's an example of a professional screenwriter (don't
> remember the name) who still used a DOS word processor in 2020 to
> write movie scripts. It was specialized software aimed at writing
> scripts, and it only ran on DOS. This person said they had an office
> set up just for writing, with a dedicated DOS-only laptop for writing.
> If he needed to look up something on the Internet (or wanted to check
> email) he had a separate computer for that. I'm not sure how he
> transferred files from DOS to his other computer, but you can use a
> USB drive for that.
>
> There's a lot of DOS software that's still great in 2024. And I'd
> argue some tools haven't gotten much better since the DOS days. My
> favorite spreadsheet (on any platform) is As Easy As on DOS. That saw
> me through my undergraduate program. If I didn't need to share
> spreadsheets with anyone else, I think As Easy As could manage 99% of
> my spreadsheet needs. And probably 100% if I just accepted that some
> things worked differently (only 16 text colors 

Re: [Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Jim Hall via Freedos-user]

On Sat, Jan 27, 2024 at 4:51 PM Dan Schmidt via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> Now, that's an interesting use for a Dos/FreeDOS retro computer:
>
> https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/14/5716232/george-r-r-martin-uses-dos-wordstar-to-write
>
> How many computers destined for the landfill still have perfectly good
> screens and keyboards?  (Recalling those heavy, grey, indestructible
> PS2 keyboards where the keys snapped back up with a vigour that
> seemed to sent your fingers flying on to the next character)  Now,
> I might have gone with WordPerfect 6 instead of WordStar 4, but the
> idea itself is solid: A computer that you just use for writing, sans
> distractions. No YouTube, no Email, no Facebook - you sit - you write.
> I mean, it's hard to argue it didn't work well for this guy!

I know I'm kind of an odd duck among my friends, but I'm with George
R.R. Martin on this. (Not the first time I've seen this article from
2014.) DOS is pretty good at the distraction-free environment,
necessitated by the limitations of the era. A distraction-free
environment is great for certain kinds of work, especially writing.

Actually, I've seen other, similar articles from different writers who
do the same. There's an example of a professional screenwriter (don't
remember the name) who still used a DOS word processor in 2020 to
write movie scripts. It was specialized software aimed at writing
scripts, and it only ran on DOS. This person said they had an office
set up just for writing, with a dedicated DOS-only laptop for writing.
If he needed to look up something on the Internet (or wanted to check
email) he had a separate computer for that. I'm not sure how he
transferred files from DOS to his other computer, but you can use a
USB drive for that.

There's a lot of DOS software that's still great in 2024. And I'd
argue some tools haven't gotten much better since the DOS days. My
favorite spreadsheet (on any platform) is As Easy As on DOS. That saw
me through my undergraduate program. If I didn't need to share
spreadsheets with anyone else, I think As Easy As could manage 99% of
my spreadsheet needs. And probably 100% if I just accepted that some
things worked differently (only 16 text colors and 16 background
colors for conditional formatting of cells, for example .. As Easy As
ran in VGA mode so could do 16 background colors).

I also experimented with using Word for DOS 5.5 as a "distraction
free" writing environment, and it works well. Word 5.5 uses modern
keybindings like ctrl-c to copy, ctrl-v to paste, etc (I didn't use
earlier versions of Word, might be the same there too, don't know) so
my fingers don't have to re-learn how to select text. If I did more
writing that didn't require special formatting (I rely on styles for
my tech writing these days) I'd probably be able to get by with Word
5.5. And LibreOffice Writer can read the files, too.


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[Freedos-user] One use case for FreeDos

[Dan Schmidt via Freedos-user]

Now, that's an interesting use for a Dos/FreeDos retro computer:

https://www.theverge.com/2014/5/14/5716232/george-r-r-martin-uses-dos-wordstar-to-write

How many computers destined for the landfill still have perfectly good
screens and keyboards?  (Recalling those heavy, grey, indestructible PS2
keyboards where the keys snapped back up with a vigour that seemed to sent
your fingers flying on to the next character)  Now, I might have gone with
WordPerfect 6 instead of WordStar 4, but the idea itself is solid: A
computer that you just use for writing, sans distractions. No YouTube, no
Email, no Facebook - you sit - you write.  I mean, it's hard to argue it
didn't work well for this guy!
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