Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Hi, On 10/23/2013 06:26 AM, Jay Sorg wrote: I'm concerned / confused about the future of FreeRDP. It seems like there is too many restructuring / refactoring of the source code that add no value. All the documentation on http://www.freerdp.com/api/ is out of date. True. Have a look to http://pub.freerdp.com/api/ - updated and regenerated in something like 2 hour intervals. - The link just hasn't made it to the freerdp.com page. Best regards, Bernhard -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
I'm sorry, you missed the point. Jay On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Bernhard Miklautz bmikla...@thinstuff.at wrote: Hi, On 10/23/2013 06:26 AM, Jay Sorg wrote: I'm concerned / confused about the future of FreeRDP. It seems like there is too many restructuring / refactoring of the source code that add no value. All the documentation on http://www.freerdp.com/api/ is out of date. True. Have a look to http://pub.freerdp.com/api/ - updated and regenerated in something like 2 hour intervals. - The link just hasn't made it to the freerdp.com page. Best regards, Bernhard -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
When we are talking about this, you mention Thinstuff. What do I think? I left rdesktop in Peter's control and Cendio took over. I left FreeRDP is your control and Thinstuff took over. You need to fix this! Jay On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Marc-André Moreau marcandre.mor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jay, I understand you are not in agreement with certain architectural decisions. However, they are not adding no value to the FreeRDP project, they are quite useful. WinPR has greatly enhanced the portability and reusability of the code. As for the lots of complaints and developers being discouraged by this, give me a break. FreeRDP is not a Linux-centric project, it's an RDP-centric project, and it is designed to be as portable, flexible and modular as possible. Also, it is not a secret that the Microsoft Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP) is involves a lot of the Windows API being remoted, which is why the WinPR approach feels natural. You may not like it, but that's still how we're doing it, and we can't make everybody happy at once. Regarding xrdp-ng, it was only a temporary name. We've chosen to name the project FreeRDS for FreeRDP Remote Desktop Services, and just like FreeRDP, it doesn't aim at being a Linux-centric project but a full blown cross-platform remote desktop services implementation. As for forking the project, I think we both know that we work at totally different speeds and that what Thinstuff and I need in the short term is fairly different from xrdp. If I were to make the major changes I've been doing in FreeRDS in xrdp you'd get a heart attack, as I know you wouldn't like most of it. No hard feelings, we're just working on our own project that fits our needs. It's something you're doing as well with NeutrinoRDP, the stabilization fork you're using with xrdp. It's not a competition, and I've never meant to insult you. I just need a project which is fairly different from what xrdp is. When I originally got started, I didn't have much imagination, so I just called it xrdp-ng. We've finally decided to name it FreeRDS as it will have nothing to do with xrdp in the future as it's taking a totally different direction. You already hate the WinPR approach, and that's exactly what FreeRDS is using now along with as much of FreeRDP as possible. Is it really such a bad thing that it's a separate project? It's a long term investment for us, as in total it's somewhere between 6 months to a year of development effort to get the first usable release of FreeRDS with enough features to be interesting. We've got customers who need this, that's why we're working on it, and we want it for ourselves as well because of its potential. What do you think? Best regards, - Marc-Andre On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 12:26 AM, Jay Sorg jay.s...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to express my concern too over the stability of FreeRDP. It was much better a year ago. I'm concerned / confused about the future of FreeRDP. It seems like there is too many restructuring / refactoring of the source code that add no value. All the documentation on http://www.freerdp.com/api/ is out of date. Lack of help is the problem, but who wants to help? I hear a lot of complains about the windows'ish push. WinPR / window command line parameters / a registry on Linux. Talented Linux developers are discouraged by this. I'd have to say, I'm discouraged too. Another thing, with FreeRDP is such a bad state, why is this project forking my project xrdp? Why are you duplicating all the good work done on xrdp? And why call it xrdp-ng? Are you suggesting you can do a better RDP Linux server? I find it quite insulting! I think there are some tough management issues that need to be addressed. Jay -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Hi Jay, first of I'm truthfully sorry how it went with xrdp. Even if I wasn't directly involved I absolutely understand you and also think some not really right choices were made.. Sorry for that. That said, On 10/23/2013 09:48 AM, Jay Sorg wrote: What do I think? I left rdesktop in Peter's control and Cendio took over. I left FreeRDP is your control and Thinstuff took over. ... what do you understand by took over? Spending time on fixing bugs? Trying to get new features in? Spending money on improving OSS software? Helping out users? I believe in FreeRDP and spent quite some of my spare time on it - trying to fix bugs, help people, improve infrastructure, and I'm really lucky that my employer, Thinstuff, also shares the believes in FreeRDP and that we are allowed to do some work on FreeRDP in our paid time. A lot of things I do would not be possible for me otherwise. Thinstuff didn't in *any* kind take over FreeRDP. To let me put this straight Marc-Andre is the project lead and I (like any other Thinstuff employee) isn't favoured in any way when working on FreeRDP. We don't dictate any direction, we just regular contributors doing pull request and help on other stuff. - For me that doesn't look like taking over? On the other side, it's not a secret that we do and did projects together with Marc-André and his company. If we do projects the by-product is most of the time that something that was done ends up in FreeRDP since it's a new feature or improvement even if it's just a trivial memory leak or fix. - Still not seeing the take over point her. Jay, I'm really happy and thankful that you and Marc-André started FreeRDP but if you leave the project and not happy how it turned out it's one thing. If you are unhappy how other things went thats the other. On both, I really do see your point and respect this but I also feel personally offended by public accusations that are just not right and true. I know all of the people at Thinstuff and they are nice and good girls and boys and definately not with the intention, or mindset, of taking over an project. This is just my personal opinion and has nothing todo with my employer. Best regards, Bernhard -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Hello folks, On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Bernhard Miklautz bmikla...@thinstuff.at wrote: first of I'm truthfully sorry how it went with xrdp. Even if I wasn't directly involved I absolutely understand you and also think some not really right choices were made.. Sorry for that. I think Marc-Andre and ThinStuff need to step back and listen. Stop to tell excuses and do an analysis of state points instead to justify 'your actions' learn from the feedback. On 10/23/2013 09:48 AM, Jay Sorg wrote: What do I think? I left rdesktop in Peter's control and Cendio took over. I left FreeRDP is your control and Thinstuff took over. ... what do you understand by took over? Spending time on fixing bugs? Trying to get new features in? Spending money on improving OSS software? Helping out users? Jay did it a lot. I did it a lot. I stopped when I noticed FreeRDP will never be usable for me. My product still uses FreeRDP 0.8+GIT (before rewrite) and it works more or less but it is stable. FreeRDP suck in this aspect. ... Thinstuff didn't in *any* kind take over FreeRDP. To let me put this straight Marc-Andre is the project lead and I (like any other Thinstuff Marc-Andre is very skilled but not to manage a project. FreeRDP commitment from community reduced a lot and as he realized companies are commited to their own needs and don't expend money to fix bugs which they don't care about. employee) isn't favoured in any way when working on FreeRDP. We don't dictate any direction, we just regular contributors doing pull request and help on other stuff. - For me that doesn't look like taking over? Taking over can be of many forms. I don't know all the projects done but Marc-Andre needs to ensure not only Thinstuff needs are accomplished or it ends being a 'featureness-compliance takeover'. On the other side, it's not a secret that we do and did projects together with Marc-André and his company. If we do projects the by-product is most of the time that something that was done ends up in FreeRDP since it's a new feature or improvement even if it's just a trivial memory leak or fix. - Still not seeing the take over point her. Jay, I'm really happy and thankful that you and Marc-André started FreeRDP but if you leave the project and not happy how it turned out it's one thing. If you are unhappy how other things went thats the other. On both, I really do see your point and respect this but I also feel personally offended by public accusations that are just not right and true. I know all of the people at Thinstuff and they are nice and good girls and boys and definately not with the intention, or mindset, of taking over an project. This is just my personal opinion and has nothing todo with my employer. I participated a lot on the began of FreeRDP and it was very exciting. Currently it is not. Too bad. -- Otavio Salvador O.S. Systems http://www.ossystems.com.brhttp://code.ossystems.com.br Mobile: +55 (53) 9981-7854Mobile: +1 (347) 903-9750 -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Hi Otavio, I think you also need to take a step back and realize the following: I have already acknowledged that you do bring valid points. It is not not a good thing that certain features like serial, parallel and smartcard are not as stable as they should be, and would definitely use a helping hand with that. We've never been against fixing those features, we just never got to complete fixing them. FreeRDP covers a huge amount of possible use cases and this means that if company A,B,C want FreeRDP in a certain way then company D,E,F want it a certain way which A,B,C doesn't understand or care about. We're highly inclusive and try to cover everybody's use cases as best as possible, but that doesn't mean we're offering free support to cover all use cases. It just means we'll integrate your stuff and make place for it such that it can be as reusable as possible without preventing other people from using FreeRDP the way they need to. Simply put, here's what the whole situation looks like: FreeRDP used to be more stable for features you cared about, then they were broken in 1.0 and a lot of new features and architectural fixes were done before completely fixing those features. Looking at that, you're just asking that we stop adding new features, freeze everything and spend most of our time stabilizing what we currently have rather than go after new features. Since what you need is the complete restoration of those features that were broken before you can migrate to the latest code, it can be quite frustrating to see nobody cared to fix those features over all this time. If you're frustrated about that, then hell, imagine my frustration! There's a LOT of stuff which nobody even cared to fix in all of this time that would have been totally worth it. I must keep my cool with all of these people asking me about all sorts of things and complaining all the time about missing stuff. I've been doing an incredible amount of work on this project so if you need something more, than you've got to stop complaining and start doing something. I'm just sick and tired of such alleged constructive criticism that truly isn't. The constructive part is where I acknowledged there is a problem, the negative part is where you don't understand that while we acknowledge there is a problem, you just don't acknowledge that fixing the problems require time and resources which we don't have and apparently aren't willing to provide at this time. I work on the bleeding edge of FreeRDP just like many other developers and it works fine for us. Others require a more stable version of it which is why we came up with the stable branch. Finding a method of operation that actually works in practice takes time, but the stable branch does work. Without Bernhard's amazing work *in his free time, on top of what he's already doing* I don't think the stable branch would be as useful as it is right now. What you need is to get the stuff you need to get fixed in the stable branch, and you should be happy afterwards. It truly is all you need to satisfy your requirements. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Otavio Salvador ota...@ossystems.com.brwrote: Hello folks, On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Bernhard Miklautz bmikla...@thinstuff.at wrote: first of I'm truthfully sorry how it went with xrdp. Even if I wasn't directly involved I absolutely understand you and also think some not really right choices were made.. Sorry for that. I think Marc-Andre and ThinStuff need to step back and listen. Stop to tell excuses and do an analysis of state points instead to justify 'your actions' learn from the feedback. On 10/23/2013 09:48 AM, Jay Sorg wrote: What do I think? I left rdesktop in Peter's control and Cendio took over. I left FreeRDP is your control and Thinstuff took over. ... what do you understand by took over? Spending time on fixing bugs? Trying to get new features in? Spending money on improving OSS software? Helping out users? Jay did it a lot. I did it a lot. I stopped when I noticed FreeRDP will never be usable for me. My product still uses FreeRDP 0.8+GIT (before rewrite) and it works more or less but it is stable. FreeRDP suck in this aspect. ... Thinstuff didn't in *any* kind take over FreeRDP. To let me put this straight Marc-Andre is the project lead and I (like any other Thinstuff Marc-Andre is very skilled but not to manage a project. FreeRDP commitment from community reduced a lot and as he realized companies are commited to their own needs and don't expend money to fix bugs which they don't care about. employee) isn't favoured in any way when working on FreeRDP. We don't dictate any direction, we just regular contributors doing pull request and help on other stuff. - For me that doesn't look like taking over? Taking over can be of many forms. I don't know all the projects done but Marc-Andre needs to ensure not only Thinstuff needs are accomplished or it ends being a
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Hi Jay, There's nothing to fix as there has never been a takeover. Where did you get that from?! And honestly, the comparison with Cendio is very insulting, you know how I feel about them. FreeRDP remains under my control, Thinstuff is *not* taking control over the FreeRDP project. If I were a control freak then I would not delegate any work, but I'm not, and Bernard has proven itself to be extremely valuable to help especially in the areas which interest Otavio and you (taking time to go over bug reports, fix bugs, set up a ci infrastructure, you name it, the work that nobody wants to do, he's been doing it). You're pointing the finger at the few people who help the most with this project. We've always been very inclusive of everybody in the FreeRDP project, and unlike the rdesktop project, we won't start rejecting meaningful contributions. Your complaint is mostly that the code changes very fast and that it's taken a direction which you personally do not like. I take the personal blame and full responsibility for all the architectural decisions I have taken and lead other people to follow me with (especially WinPR which I know you really don't like), Thinstuff definitely has nothing to do with this. We've been working VERY hard on getting the API much more stable and extensible, and that doesn't mean freezing the entire code base to add features at a very slow pace. Please don't mix decisions you don't like with the project being suddenly taken over. It's just taken a direction which helps us fit the requirements of a larger number of people more efficiently, and most of these decisions have been initiated by me. Also, I'm definitely putting code where my words are, just look at the statistics on github. There has definitely been great results already from a lot that's been undertaken, as ambitious as it is. What do you think? Best regards, - Marc-Andre On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Jay Sorg jay.s...@gmail.com wrote: When we are talking about this, you mention Thinstuff. What do I think? I left rdesktop in Peter's control and Cendio took over. I left FreeRDP is your control and Thinstuff took over. You need to fix this! Jay On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Marc-André Moreau marcandre.mor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jay, I understand you are not in agreement with certain architectural decisions. However, they are not adding no value to the FreeRDP project, they are quite useful. WinPR has greatly enhanced the portability and reusability of the code. As for the lots of complaints and developers being discouraged by this, give me a break. FreeRDP is not a Linux-centric project, it's an RDP-centric project, and it is designed to be as portable, flexible and modular as possible. Also, it is not a secret that the Microsoft Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP) is involves a lot of the Windows API being remoted, which is why the WinPR approach feels natural. You may not like it, but that's still how we're doing it, and we can't make everybody happy at once. Regarding xrdp-ng, it was only a temporary name. We've chosen to name the project FreeRDS for FreeRDP Remote Desktop Services, and just like FreeRDP, it doesn't aim at being a Linux-centric project but a full blown cross-platform remote desktop services implementation. As for forking the project, I think we both know that we work at totally different speeds and that what Thinstuff and I need in the short term is fairly different from xrdp. If I were to make the major changes I've been doing in FreeRDS in xrdp you'd get a heart attack, as I know you wouldn't like most of it. No hard feelings, we're just working on our own project that fits our needs. It's something you're doing as well with NeutrinoRDP, the stabilization fork you're using with xrdp. It's not a competition, and I've never meant to insult you. I just need a project which is fairly different from what xrdp is. When I originally got started, I didn't have much imagination, so I just called it xrdp-ng. We've finally decided to name it FreeRDS as it will have nothing to do with xrdp in the future as it's taking a totally different direction. You already hate the WinPR approach, and that's exactly what FreeRDS is using now along with as much of FreeRDP as possible. Is it really such a bad thing that it's a separate project? It's a long term investment for us, as in total it's somewhere between 6 months to a year of development effort to get the first usable release of FreeRDS with enough features to be interesting. We've got customers who need this, that's why we're working on it, and we want it for ourselves as well because of its potential. What do you think? Best regards, - Marc-Andre On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 12:26 AM, Jay Sorg jay.s...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to express my concern too over the stability of FreeRDP. It was much better a year ago. I'm
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Hi Vic, Thank you for your support, and you do summarize well the situation. We have always been very inclusive of people's contributions and always will be. As for enjoying the new code without complaining and fixing problems which bother you, that's pretty much how this should be approached. I've had numerous conversations similar to this with developers from HP in the past until they figured out that the best way to approach this is to do exactly like Vic said: enjoy the code, fix what bothers you, we'll give you the space that you need and make sure to integrate it as much as possible. Daryl can probably tell you about that ;) You need a stable branch where you can develop on top of a non-moving target? I totally understand the need for that, and I've never been against it, that's why we have the stable branch. Luckily we have volunteers who spend time maintaining that branch to make it truly useful and frequently backport fixes from master to it. We found out through experience that using master the way it is with a separate stable branch that we can frequently backport fixes to is a lot easier than trying to use master as a stable branch. While all of this discussion is happening, there are people working on improving the state of certain features which have been discussed (serial and smartcard). Instead of complaining that they're not working, how about just working on fixing them with the others? It's funny how those developers actively working on fixing what is causing all of these complaints are not actively involved in this conversation. Maybe we should take their example, less complaining, more fixing and coding, that's how things move forward. Best regards, - Marc-Andre On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Vic Lee llyzs@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jay, I am sorry you feel that way. I still remember when you and Marc invited me to leave rdesktop and join FreeRDP because rdesktop was controlled by Cendio and refused any architetural changes even they were useful or necessary. And Marc said FreeRDP would be much more open. This has been true until now, and I believe it will be always true in the project. I really don't feel it has been taken over by any group of people like Cendio in any way - anybody from anywhere are still always welcome to contribute, I am sure Marc agrees. Regarding the topic: yes lack of stable release control is an issue. Often when I merged master in order to use some new feature I would also have all kinds of problems, but I usually just fix them myself, and enjoy the new codes instead of complaining... Marc has made the point, stable release control requires a lot of manpower, and it's even more difficult for such a fast-evolving technology. Speaking of architetural changes, sometimes you don't see benefits of something when you are not using it yet. I was also skeptical about WinPR, felt it was way too much effort for little value, until when I moved to cross-platform development I saw the idea behind and the advantages, and even start to contribute to it. Let's stay a healthy community and not let such differences ruin us. I am sure a solution will eventually come out, and we should focus on working on solutions instead of falling apart. Thanks, Vic On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 03:48 PM, Jay Sorg wrote: When we are talking about this, you mention Thinstuff. What do I think? I left rdesktop in Peter's control and Cendio took over. I left FreeRDP is your control and Thinstuff took over. You need to fix this! Jay -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Hi Arlo, Thank you for your feedback, and you are right, it can be very hard to stay in sync with the bleeding edge of FreeRDP. In this case, the stable branch of FreeRDP may be better suited for you. If you base your work on the stable branch, you won't be getting new features as as fast as they keep coming in the master branch, but at least you will be able to work on top of a non-moving target which is the core of the issue here. I totally get your point and you're not the first one to bring that up, the compromise we came up with was the stable branch and it's been working very well for HP contributions. The problem was exactly what you are describing. As for RDP8 features, please let us know when you have code like that sitting on a branch somewhere! It's not the first time I manually integrate large contributions that are received in all sorts of states. The more closely we can work together the easier it is for us to help with the integration. For instance, the original libfreerdp-primitives contribution from HP was not in a state which could be merged without breaking portability for most non-Linux platforms. I spent a whole weekend cleaning it up, improving the cmake scripts, testing on non-Windows platforms and making sure it wouldn't break things for other people when I finally merged it in master. Oftentimes we can't expect developers to really know the side effect of their code in terms of portability, and we can't blame them, there's just so much to think about. I think the contribution that came in the worst possible state was the original TS Gateway code. It was a tarball in an email with version control history removed, so I had to proceed with making a diff of the source trees and manually integrating bits of code. I still did it, and here we are today. When we originally got the contribution for USB redirection, I originally left it in a branch because it required some extra work avoid breaking the build on many platforms. It took some time before it found its way into master, but I eventually merged it after it was modified to build properly only when enabled on platforms where it was supported and after dependencies were detected. This being said, I would more than glad to take a look at your code and help integrating it myself just like I often did in the past for major contributions :) What do you think? Best regards, - Marc-Andre On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Arlo Liu arlo@atrustcorp.com wrote: There are something I want to talk. I and my company really want to push back many bug fix and new features back to FreeRDP (like we did with USB redirection). But there is a big issue that cause us stop to merge code to FreeRDP mainline. You guys change API and architecture too often. The first time that we found that it's hard to merge code back is FreeRDP change to use WinPR (lacks functional and unstable at that time). So we decide to take lots of time to merge our code base to keep update with mainline, but we found you changed API again when we finished the merge work. And not just API, it seems you prefer to put some very experiential or even not completed feature to mainline instead of development branch. After 2~3 times we try to sync our code base with mainline, we give up finally, even we already preapred some bug fix/feature patch like serial redirection, RD gateway...etc, which want to push back to community. I'm not saying that the new features is not cool (it is), but if it's an open project which want to let many developers collaborate with it, it might needs to consider the consistency of core API, backward compatibility and the essential quality of commit (or, at least do not push a single commit with so many modification). For example, we can't push some RDP 8.x feature like GFX, VOR back to mainline. It's not just because that we need to spend lots of time for porting task, the more major issue is because we found the architecture of mainline changed a lot, and we can't not just add a new VC extension with modify current architecture. 2013/10/24 Marc-André Moreau marcandre.mor...@gmail.com Hi Vic, Thank you for your support, and you do summarize well the situation. We have always been very inclusive of people's contributions and always will be. As for enjoying the new code without complaining and fixing problems which bother you, that's pretty much how this should be approached. I've had numerous conversations similar to this with developers from HP in the past until they figured out that the best way to approach this is to do exactly like Vic said: enjoy the code, fix what bothers you, we'll give you the space that you need and make sure to integrate it as much as possible. Daryl can probably tell you about that ;) You need a stable branch where you can develop on top of a non-moving target? I totally understand the need for that, and I've never been against it, that's why we have the stable branch. Luckily
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Thanks Marc and Vic. I'm only trying to explain why there are not as many contributors as there was. When any project gets too close to any company you loose contributor. We spent a lot of time switching to the Apache lincese but we allow GPL like code from one company. Why? Can other companies get non Apache code in FreeRDP? Why won't this project accept an Apache IOS or Android client? Why did the CEO of Thinstuff email we shortly after your xrdp fork and ask me to join xrdp-ng? You talk about insulting! Jay On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 9:39 AM, Marc-André Moreau marcandre.mor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Vic, Thank you for your support, and you do summarize well the situation. We have always been very inclusive of people's contributions and always will be. As for enjoying the new code without complaining and fixing problems which bother you, that's pretty much how this should be approached. I've had numerous conversations similar to this with developers from HP in the past until they figured out that the best way to approach this is to do exactly like Vic said: enjoy the code, fix what bothers you, we'll give you the space that you need and make sure to integrate it as much as possible. Daryl can probably tell you about that ;) You need a stable branch where you can develop on top of a non-moving target? I totally understand the need for that, and I've never been against it, that's why we have the stable branch. Luckily we have volunteers who spend time maintaining that branch to make it truly useful and frequently backport fixes from master to it. We found out through experience that using master the way it is with a separate stable branch that we can frequently backport fixes to is a lot easier than trying to use master as a stable branch. While all of this discussion is happening, there are people working on improving the state of certain features which have been discussed (serial and smartcard). Instead of complaining that they're not working, how about just working on fixing them with the others? It's funny how those developers actively working on fixing what is causing all of these complaints are not actively involved in this conversation. Maybe we should take their example, less complaining, more fixing and coding, that's how things move forward. Best regards, - Marc-Andre On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Vic Lee llyzs@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jay, I am sorry you feel that way. I still remember when you and Marc invited me to leave rdesktop and join FreeRDP because rdesktop was controlled by Cendio and refused any architetural changes even they were useful or necessary. And Marc said FreeRDP would be much more open. This has been true until now, and I believe it will be always true in the project. I really don't feel it has been taken over by any group of people like Cendio in any way - anybody from anywhere are still always welcome to contribute, I am sure Marc agrees. Regarding the topic: yes lack of stable release control is an issue. Often when I merged master in order to use some new feature I would also have all kinds of problems, but I usually just fix them myself, and enjoy the new codes instead of complaining... Marc has made the point, stable release control requires a lot of manpower, and it's even more difficult for such a fast-evolving technology. Speaking of architetural changes, sometimes you don't see benefits of something when you are not using it yet. I was also skeptical about WinPR, felt it was way too much effort for little value, until when I moved to cross-platform development I saw the idea behind and the advantages, and even start to contribute to it. Let's stay a healthy community and not let such differences ruin us. I am sure a solution will eventually come out, and we should focus on working on solutions instead of falling apart. Thanks, Vic On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 03:48 PM, Jay Sorg wrote: When we are talking about this, you mention Thinstuff. What do I think? I left rdesktop in Peter's control and Cendio took over. I left FreeRDP is your control and Thinstuff took over. You need to fix this! Jay -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
I had a similar problem when I was using FreeRDP libraries in xrdp. The API kept changing from day to day for things that add no value. palette renamed to colorTable, then ColorTable This breaks the API twice. What value was added? The API needs to be a special place that one guy maintains and only justified changes get in. I had to stop supporting the FreeRDP module in xrdp. Jay On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Arlo Liu arlo@atrustcorp.com wrote: There are something I want to talk. I and my company really want to push back many bug fix and new features back to FreeRDP (like we did with USB redirection). But there is a big issue that cause us stop to merge code to FreeRDP mainline. You guys change API and architecture too often. The first time that we found that it's hard to merge code back is FreeRDP change to use WinPR (lacks functional and unstable at that time). So we decide to take lots of time to merge our code base to keep update with mainline, but we found you changed API again when we finished the merge work. And not just API, it seems you prefer to put some very experiential or even not completed feature to mainline instead of development branch. After 2~3 times we try to sync our code base with mainline, we give up finally, even we already preapred some bug fix/feature patch like serial redirection, RD gateway...etc, which want to push back to community. I'm not saying that the new features is not cool (it is), but if it's an open project which want to let many developers collaborate with it, it might needs to consider the consistency of core API, backward compatibility and the essential quality of commit (or, at least do not push a single commit with so many modification). For example, we can't push some RDP 8.x feature like GFX, VOR back to mainline. It's not just because that we need to spend lots of time for porting task, the more major issue is because we found the architecture of mainline changed a lot, and we can't not just add a new VC extension with modify current architecture. 2013/10/24 Marc-André Moreau marcandre.mor...@gmail.com Hi Vic, Thank you for your support, and you do summarize well the situation. We have always been very inclusive of people's contributions and always will be. As for enjoying the new code without complaining and fixing problems which bother you, that's pretty much how this should be approached. I've had numerous conversations similar to this with developers from HP in the past until they figured out that the best way to approach this is to do exactly like Vic said: enjoy the code, fix what bothers you, we'll give you the space that you need and make sure to integrate it as much as possible. Daryl can probably tell you about that ;) You need a stable branch where you can develop on top of a non-moving target? I totally understand the need for that, and I've never been against it, that's why we have the stable branch. Luckily we have volunteers who spend time maintaining that branch to make it truly useful and frequently backport fixes from master to it. We found out through experience that using master the way it is with a separate stable branch that we can frequently backport fixes to is a lot easier than trying to use master as a stable branch. While all of this discussion is happening, there are people working on improving the state of certain features which have been discussed (serial and smartcard). Instead of complaining that they're not working, how about just working on fixing them with the others? It's funny how those developers actively working on fixing what is causing all of these complaints are not actively involved in this conversation. Maybe we should take their example, less complaining, more fixing and coding, that's how things move forward. Best regards, - Marc-Andre On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Vic Lee llyzs@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jay, I am sorry you feel that way. I still remember when you and Marc invited me to leave rdesktop and join FreeRDP because rdesktop was controlled by Cendio and refused any architetural changes even they were useful or necessary. And Marc said FreeRDP would be much more open. This has been true until now, and I believe it will be always true in the project. I really don't feel it has been taken over by any group of people like Cendio in any way - anybody from anywhere are still always welcome to contribute, I am sure Marc agrees. Regarding the topic: yes lack of stable release control is an issue. Often when I merged master in order to use some new feature I would also have all kinds of problems, but I usually just fix them myself, and enjoy the new codes instead of complaining... Marc has made the point, stable release control requires a lot of manpower, and it's even more difficult for such a fast-evolving technology. Speaking of architetural changes, sometimes you don't see benefits of
[Freerdp-devel] Peter Novodvorsky has invited you to use Google Talk
Peter Novodvorsky has invited you to sign up for Google Talk so you can talk to each other for free over your computers. To sign-up, go to: http://www.google.com/accounts/NewAccount?service=talksendvemail=trueskipvpage=truereqemail=freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.netcontinue=http://www.google.com/talk/service/handleinvite?p%3DjRFstkMBAAA.QDDp59g_f_hv-AWFHD8Z3WBBBrcnicQv_inrWca5BhaqzPqCL0mcLKgGzAY2wvp50C1jfHwkoRzJCHoa6pZYBg.jjQXKgM9DfW_vW9EUXKv5wfollowup=http://www.google.com/talk/service/HandleEmailVerified?ee%3DjRFstkMBAAA.TUQOpHG9DG4s_0w99GeggCxnL_b-CbKVNjfN0DZ2nPKp8EOLC6zw2zOAM432kJTD.HXM5_-iuNhZT0ec3R5J5Kw%26p%3DjRFstkMBAAA.QDDp59g_f_hv-AWFHD8Z3WBBBrcnicQv_inrWca5BhaqzPqCL0mcLKgGzAY2wvp50C1jfHwkoRzJCHoa6pZYBg.jjQXKgM9DfW_vW9EUXKv5w Google Talk is a downloadable Windows* application that offers: - Free calls over your computer anytime, from anywhere, and for as long as you want - A simple and intuitive user interface for sending instant messages or making calls--no clutter, pop-ups or ads - Superior voice quality through just a microphone and computer speaker - Fast file transfers with no restrictions on file type After signing-up, download Google Talk and sign in with your new Google Account username and password. You can then begin inviting anyone you want to talk to for free. Google Talk works with any computer speaker and microphone, such as the ones built-in to many PC laptops today, as well as with wired and wireless headsets and USB phones. Google Talk also works across all firewalls. Google Talk is still in beta. Just like with Gmail, we're working hard to add features and make improvements, so we might also ask for your comments and suggestions periodically. We appreciate your help in making it even better! Thanks, The Google Talk Team To learn more about Google Talk before signing up, visit: http://www.google.com/talk/about.html (If clicking the URLs in this message does not work, copy and paste them into the address bar of your browser). * Not a Windows user? No problem. You can also connect to the Google Talk service from any platform using third-party clients (http://www.google.com/talk/otherclients.html). -- October Webinars: Code for Performance Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance. Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60135991iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freerdp-devel mailing list Freerdp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freerdp-devel
Re: [Freerdp-devel] Stable release
Hi Jay, I think you are living in a parallel universe, what is wrong with you? Come on IRC more often and talk to us, you've lost touch with reality, seriously. First, don't use GPL-like to refer to a license which has nothing to do with the GPL. You know how I feel about the GPL and we're definitely not accepting GPL code in FreeRDP. What you are referring to is the MPL 2.0 license which is used for the *mobile clients* that Thinstuff developed. If you think it's a one-company kind of thing, it isn't, it's been done in collaboration with Awake Coding Consulting Inc. and I was the one who gave advice to Thinstuff when they decided which license to choose. The MPL 2.0 is a weak copyleft license, which means that unlike the GPL license, it's not viral. You can add new non-MPL files alongside MPL files in the same project, link them together the way you want, it doesn't matter, you're not infected. I think the licensing of the mobile ports was already well covered in the announcement which covered their release, have you even read it? Why so much outrage now and not back then? As for accepting an Apache 2.0 licensed iOS and Android client, why do you come to the conclusion that we won't accept that? Anybody is free to write their own iOS and Android FreeRDP-based client without reusing the existing MPL 2.0 source code and license it under the Apache 2.0 license if they want. This project is NOT too close to a specific company, there has never been a takeover. We are highly inclusive of everybody's contributions and try to cover everybody's use cases. Heck, I even was once proposed mountains of money by some (unnamed) company just to put some free proprietary RDP clients for download on freerdp.com and I SAID NO because I care about keeping this project independent from a single company. If there's someone making sure this project doesn't end the same way rdesktop ended, it's me, and I've been taking my role very seriously over all these years. As for contributions, they have only been INCREASING, and this is one of the reasons why managing the project has become much harder over the years. When you're just a few developers management is easy, when you have a larger community with many different companies involved all with different goals it's kind of hard to keep them all aligned around one single project. Everybody wants a different thing and somehow they want to use the same thing at the same time. Put yourself in my boots one day and I dare you to do a better job. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Jay Sorg jay.s...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Marc and Vic. I'm only trying to explain why there are not as many contributors as there was. When any project gets too close to any company you loose contributor. We spent a lot of time switching to the Apache lincese but we allow GPL like code from one company. Why? Can other companies get non Apache code in FreeRDP? Why won't this project accept an Apache IOS or Android client? Why did the CEO of Thinstuff email we shortly after your xrdp fork and ask me to join xrdp-ng? You talk about insulting! Jay On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 9:39 AM, Marc-André Moreau marcandre.mor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Vic, Thank you for your support, and you do summarize well the situation. We have always been very inclusive of people's contributions and always will be. As for enjoying the new code without complaining and fixing problems which bother you, that's pretty much how this should be approached. I've had numerous conversations similar to this with developers from HP in the past until they figured out that the best way to approach this is to do exactly like Vic said: enjoy the code, fix what bothers you, we'll give you the space that you need and make sure to integrate it as much as possible. Daryl can probably tell you about that ;) You need a stable branch where you can develop on top of a non-moving target? I totally understand the need for that, and I've never been against it, that's why we have the stable branch. Luckily we have volunteers who spend time maintaining that branch to make it truly useful and frequently backport fixes from master to it. We found out through experience that using master the way it is with a separate stable branch that we can frequently backport fixes to is a lot easier than trying to use master as a stable branch. While all of this discussion is happening, there are people working on improving the state of certain features which have been discussed (serial and smartcard). Instead of complaining that they're not working, how about just working on fixing them with the others? It's funny how those developers actively working on fixing what is causing all of these complaints are not actively involved in this conversation. Maybe we should take their example, less complaining, more fixing and coding, that's how things move forward. Best regards, - Marc-Andre
