99 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: real-life example
At 11:50 AM 1/26/99 -1000, Jay Hanson wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and social complexity grew. While hunting and gathering societies needed
only transitory hierarchies, more complex societies needed permanent
one
Suppose society decided the primary "goal" was for our kids to live long
enough to retire. Obviously, this implies a functional society, which is a
"technical" question -- somewhat like asking "How can I make the cooking
fuel on my boat last the entire trip?"
Who decides the goal and do
I have not had time lately to follow this thread but I was able to read
this post this morning and wonder if anyone has mentioned Plato's Republic
in the course of this discussion.
On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Eva Durant wrote:
(I think I mentioned it before BTW,
I am Hungarian, as centre-european
Direct democracy cannot selectively
exclude people.
The elitists are a minority by definition.
If they vote themselves out from the
collective decisionmaking, we may have
fun to see how they manage on their own.
Eva
Mentioning a version of your comments to a central european-born manager, I
Mentioning a version of your comments to a central european-born manager, I was a
little surprised to receive the following tirade back I paraphrase 'Why would
Direct Democracy be a good system? Intelligent people know from experience that
most other people are idiots. Therefore most decisions
At 07:16 AM 1/29/99 +, Mark Measday wrote:
Mentioning a version of your comments to a central european-born manager,
I was a
little surprised to receive the following tirade back I paraphrase 'Why would
Direct Democracy be a good system? Intelligent people know from experience
that
most other
(I think I mentioned it before BTW,
I am Hungarian, as centre-european as any.)
I don't think it is valid to link political ideas with
ethniticy.
Also, I can only picture DD as a global
phenomena, once established,
you cannot stop it, just like the internet.
Eva
At 07:16 AM 1/29/99 +,
Hitler was not elected, he's got in power
through a militarry-type take-over
with the financial and power support
of the capitalist class that was terrified
by the previous victories of the german
worker's movement. He used his power to
terrify and brainwash the people.
Don't tell me that
the least
possibility of corruption, greed or the seeking of power to satisfy a
particular agenda.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
-Original Message-
From: Colin Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: January 27, 1999 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: real-life example
At
- Original Message -
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
No thanks! I saw direct democracy in action the other night on a PBS
program about Rwanda: eight-hundred-thousand dead in one hundred days.
Don't you think your being just a little unfair? That was butchery, not
democracy.
- Original Message -
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This puts us at a dead end, which may also be your point. I don't like the
idea of scientists running things. I've worked with too many of them. One
of the best couldn't think his way out of a paper bag, but he could do
wonders
Would someone help me on this. What was Neo-Corporatism in the 1930s? I've run
across the term and have found no description.
As for hiring your leaders, that is what most American cities do. The elect a
mayor and hire a City Manager to run the place.It works pretty well but does
not
- Original Message -
From: Ray E. Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
As for hiring your leaders, that is what most American cities do. The
elect a mayor and hire a City Manager to run the place.It works pretty
well but does not avoid the issues of pollution or loss of resources that
you
Interesting but what would you do about initiative?That has been the problem
with all of the "job" oriented labor in the communist and socialist countries or
so goes the propaganda here about it.In my culture it is the Sacred, the
family,
the work (power) and the life of the imagination
- Original Message -
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
How about an explicit definition of the job and explicit qualifications?
We do that with every other job, why not politics?
God will write them? Theocracies worked for a while, but they too had
their
problems -- e.g. the classic
- Original Message -
From: Colin Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hence the concept of Direct Democracy:
" a SYSTEM of citizen-initiated binding referendums whereby voters can
directly amend, introduce and remove policies and laws"
No thanks! I saw direct democracy in action the other night on
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
How about an explicit definition of the job and explicit qualifications?
We do that with every other job, why not politics?
God will write them? Theocracies worked for a while, but they too had
their
problems -- e.g. the classic Mayas screwed up their
No thanks! I saw direct democracy in action the other night on a PBS
program about Rwanda: eight-hundred-thousand dead in one hundred days.
Jay
Jay,
Don't you think your being just a little unfair? That was butchery, not
democracy. Given its background, it could have happened under any
- Original Message -
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
No thanks! I saw direct democracy in action the other night on a PBS
program about Rwanda: eight-hundred-thousand dead in one hundred days.
Don't you think your being just a little unfair? That was butchery, not
democracy.
If energy (oil?) is in short supply, can one afford to be "fair"?
we can be only fair if the decision is made collectively on
how to use a scarse resource, especially if the all
the information and the options are well known
by everybody.
Eva
Just wondering ... !
Bob
Eva Durant
At 11:50 AM 1/26/99 -1000, Jay Hanson wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and social complexity grew. While hunting and gathering societies needed
only transitory hierarchies, more complex societies needed permanent ones.
However, there is no reason on earth
Jay Hanson writes:
Democracy makes no sense.
Right, democracy is the worst system except for all the others, since power
will always corrupt.
Government by popularity contest is a stupid idea.
So is the corresponding straw man form of any kind of government. Government
by age? Government
- Original Message -
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Democracy makes no sense. If society is seeking a leader with the best
skills, the selection should be based on merit -- testing and
xperience --
not popularity. Government by popularity contest is a stupid idea.
Somehow I'm
- Original Message -
From: Peter Marks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Government by popularity contest is a stupid idea.
So is the corresponding straw man form of any kind of government.
Government by age? Government by family name? Government
by bank account? Government by narrow technical
Jay:
How about an explicit definition of the job and explicit qualifications?
We do that with every other job, why not politics?
God will write them? Theocracies worked for a while, but they too had their
problems -- e.g. the classic Mayas screwed up their environment just as
badly as we
You have the contradiction in your own paragraph:
"as just as possible" vs "best possible way"
I can't see contradiction. The two have large
overlapping section.
I think I'd be most upset if I were of your crew;
they are NOT stupid, if it WERE the question of
life or death, they would have
- Original Message -
From: Eva Durant [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think I'd be most upset if I were of your crew;
they are NOT stupid, if it WERE the question of
life or death, they would have made the same choice
as you.
First of all you did not know my crew. G Moreover, the reason they
have
Hi
This issue reminds me of the difference between equitable and efficient
locations. An equitable location (of say, a school) ensures that distances
travelled by pupils are as alike as possible (minimizes variation); an efficient
location, on the other hand, minimizes the total distance
Jay Hanson:
First of all you did not know my crew. G Moreover, the reason they
have skippers on boats is because they are better trained than crew
and passengers. It's a fact of life. Human society is inherently
hierarchical for the simple reason that it contributes to "inclusive
fitness".
- Original Message -
From: Edward Weick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and social complexity grew. While hunting and gathering societies needed
only transitory hierarchies, more complex societies needed permanent ones.
However, there is no reason on earth why these couldn't be democratic,
allowing a
Jay Hanson:
Democracy makes no sense. If society is seeking a leader with the best
skills, the selection should be based on merit -- testing and
xperience --
not popularity. Government by popularity contest is a stupid idea.
Somehow I'm not at all surprised that this is your point of view.
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