Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
There is also an emacs-plugin which handles man-pages. Start emacs, M-x man, then enter manpage... has some nice features chr -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
szonyi calin wrote: There was a good manual viewer (X11 based) which was acting like a browser (i.e. you had a TOC at the beginning and when you pressed the word on that TOC the program took you right to the place where it was in the manual.) but it seems it's not on the net anymore. For the benefit of other recent arrivals to Fvwm2 - who are equally dismayed by the size (and number) of the relevant man pages: Typing on the command line info fvwm2 loads the man page and all the routines (emacs bindings, I believe) for reading an info file. This can lighten the reading load (yet to be tried). There is also a vim plugin for loading the man page into vim and then use the features of vim (e.g. search, mark, fold, etc) to make the reading of the man page less daunting (tried it and it works). Felix Karpfen -- Felix Karpfen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA) -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:45:50 +0200 From: Imre Vida [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, Aug 25, 2002 at 08:29:50PM -0400, Dan Espen wrote: Are you aware that you can start fvwm with no config file at all, press F1 or any mouse button on the root window and fvwm will offer to create a few different configurations for you? yes, it is mentioned in the man but it appears at line 365 in a very modest 2 line sentence (context: .fvwm2rc). it is repeated in a somewhat more extended version at ~1100 (Built in KM Bindings). while I agree that structurally these are apropriate locations, i believe not many newbies can spot and pick up the message (i personally missed them when first read/ scanned through the manual. mind you it is 8000+ lines of heavy text). I think it would be helpful to - to put a To the Impatient setion at the very begining of the man with this info - mention this also in one of the INSTALL and/or README files (e.g. README.sysrc). My own `newbie' experience years ago was a burning baptism, rather than a gentle drift into expertise. So this question is to others, expecially recent newbies. A tutorial document has been suggested. Would it be useful to have one that helps a new user build ``their own'' simple .fvwm2rc from almost scratch, without wholesale importing of any ready made themes or bits of configuration? Each FVWM feature would be explained, as the user includes it into their config, and they could run FVWM at various stages as it develops. They would start off from a known place: a really simple config that contains only emacs, or another editor of their choice (nedit?), a restart menu item, and perhaps a program runnign to monitor the error output from FVWM (e.g. the error monitor from AnotherLevelUp). This initial config would be explained in the first section. Next sections would give step by step instructions for adding more features. Later sections would tell them what is wanted, but get them to find out how to do it from the man pages, and try it first with FvwmConsole before adding it to their file, etc.. It would cover the sort of things that newbies want to do: choose a background, get an xterm on the menu, choose window frame features, have a task bar, have multiple desk tops,have some fvwm buttons, ... Is this a sensible sort of order? Perhaps it could evolve through it's readers sugegsting what things they want to do next. By the end the student of fvwm (!) would have basically copied a simple config, but feel able to risk being creative. Maybe some exercises could be suggested for further learning. Does such a thing already exist? Would it be welcome? I'm not quite on the verge of volnteering to think about writing something... Best wishes, John Latham -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 09:26:56PM -0500, Len Philpot wrote: On Sun, Aug 25, 2002 at 10:20:47PM +, Mikhael Goikhman wrote: On 25 Aug 2002 16:18:42 -0500, Len Philpot wrote: 2. When I configure a Popup StartMenu, is there a way to accurately control where it appears on screen, in regard to the Start button? If I understood MenuStyle a bit better, maybe the answer is there (PopupOffset, or whatever it's called)...? Yes, you may do this accurately in 2.5.1+, scan NEWS file. In 2.4.x, you may do this too using Rectangle or Mouse hint (there are examples in fvwm-themes), but not as accurately as in 2.5.x. I'm using FvwmTaskBar, with no RootMenu configured, but rather all the same entries on the StartMenu. It pops up just fine when I click the task bar button, but the position is relative to the mouse pointer, not to the task bar. That's what I'm trying to achieve. I'm currently running 2.4.6, BTW (latest RPM for RedHat 7.x I could locate in a quick search). Here's what I've tried to pin down the location: AddToMenu StartMenu Root x y SelectInPlace You are adding the position hint to the wrong command. It only works with the Menu and Popup commands. This is because it's a parameter of a specific menu invocation, not of the menu as a whole. Try this instead: *FvwmTaskBarStartMenu RootMenu root +0p o100-25p SelectInPlace FvwmTaskBar passes the whole string with Menu prepended to fvwm. It's really not the most intuitive syntax I could make up. ...where x and y are various offsets. I would expect x to be 0 and y to basically be height_of_root_window - height_of_menu - height_of_taskbar. In this intance, referencing the lower left corner of the menu would have been more convenient and less prone to change, although menu's typically _do_ drop down, so I see the value in the upperleft reference point. Trouble is, it doesn't seem to make any difference at all what I put there - Nothing ever changes. See above. My MenuStyle is : MenuStyle * Foreground black, Background grey70, Greyed grey90,\ HilightBack grey60, ActiveFore black, Hilight3DThickness -1, \ font -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-*-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-*-*, Animation,\ PopupDelay 55, PopdownDelay 5, TitleWarpOff, SeparatorsLong,\ TrianglesRelief, PopupOffset 0 95 ...with the exception that it's actually all on one line. You can split it into multiple lines for readability as long as the mwm or fvwm menu style appears as the first item of the list (as both override most settings): MenuStyle * Foreground black, Background grey70, Greyed grey90 MenuStyle * HilightBack grey60, ActiveFore black ... It works as expected, but is something there interfering? What exactly annoys you about menus and windows? Provide configurations. It's just that I prefer the mouse pointer to stay where it is when I click it. In general, I'm not a big fan of anything in the UI responding or taking any kind of action without an explicit instruction on the part of the user. I'd rather not even have the menu selection move with the mouse without the button being down, given a choice, and I don't care for highlighting icons that change as you mouseover them (so popular in Windows, Gnome, KDE, etc.), but that's just my personal GUI preferences. I like intefaces that are totally static until acted upon by the user. Once again, just my preference. Even under Windows, I don't turn on the option to jump to the active control. With those sort of things active, I tend to spend more time looking for the mouse pointer. The way I have it now, I have no warping happening, at least none I've noticed, so I'm happy with that. That's mostly a relic of the fvwm menu style. I never understood why it had to be so annoying, but we never changed it fpr backward compatibility. The first menu style everybody may want to use is MenuStyle * mwm which corrects most of the funny behaviour. Let me clarify something - I may have inadvertently come across as critical of fvwm and the way things are done. That was not intentional, but rather just the product of frustration (indeed, I even stated such in one post). I usually never write when in such a state, as I always regret it later. I'll state again: I like what I'm learning of fvwm and I'm appreciative of the help; it's just that the learning process is somewhat painful at times (at least, it smarts here and there...). You're welcome. I know the documentation isn't good for beginners. As someone else pointed out, being a developer disqualifies me for writing a tutorial. That again brings us back to the issue that we need a volunteer to write and maintain such a guide. Bye Dominik ^_^ ^_^ -- Dominik Vogt, mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], phone: 0721/91374-382 Schlund + Partner AG, Erbprinzenstr. 4-12, D-76133 Karlsruhe -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
--- Len Philpot [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 05:28:28PM +0200, szonyi calin wrote: Welcome to *nix It was hard to write, therefore it should be hard to learn, right? ;-) This kind of attitude worked for a long time when there weren't alternatives (at least perceived if not in reality). However, in today's market, as much as we (I?) sometimes dislike it, the customer deserves some consideration. Even in free software it helps. Sorry. I didn't know that people with *nix experience didn't discovered fvwm yet. I think the man page should remain as it is. The man page format is standard. I wish KDE / Gnome and others would include (more) man pages instead of all the (*?%$ HTML documentation. They try to emulate windoze (with some success :-) ) Man page _is_ a reference. Man page _is not_ a tutorial. Will never be. I agree - However some explantory text/refernce material might be in order here and there, whether in the man page or as a separate document. I think a separate document will be better. As someone wrote on this list, the man page is too big allready. If you are impatient and newbie in the same time the chances of screwing things up are big, so my advice is to start with a configuration file that _works_ and modify it to suit your needs, Well, since I started this thread let me say that I am not new to computers, nor am I totally new to *nix -- I use and administer Solaris every day at work in a decent sized production environment and have done so for almost 4 years. I'm certainly not a guru (I learn every day), but not a Unix newbie either... an fvwm newbie, certainly, though! Sorry again. :-) Many new users which come from windows don't read documentation so I thought you are one of those. My apologies, but i'm became sick of seeing windoze lusers who can't configure their pc saying that *nix is hard to learn, when the only thing they have read in their life was the label from the OK button in a dialog box. I think somebody wrote a tutorial for fvwm. Use it. The only one I've found is a bit thin. What's there is useful enough, but it's not much (as the author freely admits). I found the examples distributed with the source a good start. Maybe I'll try to write an extensive tutorial. I'm not an expert but with some help I think I can do it. The main problem are the differences between versions of fvwm Calin ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
--- Imre Vida [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 05:28:28PM +0200, szonyi calin wrote: Welcome to *nix Well, thanks for the nice welcome. :-) I think the man page should remain as it is. The man page format is standard. Man page _is_ a reference. Man page _is not_ a tutorial. Will never be. I was making a benevolent suggestion, what i thought would/could help some people. It was not about any kind of tutorial, but only about putting a piece of information (that is already in the manual) somewhere at the begining, where people reading the man the first time can easily spot it. That's the problem with man pages: the references are at the end, usually :-) There was a good manual viewer (X11 based) which was acting like a browser (i.e. you had a TOC at the beginning and when you pressed the word on that TOC the program took you right to the place where it was in the manual.) but it seems it's not on the net anymore. I was also not suggesting to change the (holy) Format either. But i can't fail to note here, that the standard does not seem to be that very strictly defined - see man of man: A manual page consists of several parts. They may be labelled NAME, SYNOPSIS, DESCRIPTION, OPTIONS, FILES, SEE ALSO, BUGS, and AUTHOR. Please note: MAY be labelled. Sorry. Next time i'll double check before saying something So i don't really understand your rather harsh tone. Could you explain? I saw some man pages which were written some kind backwards: Name , Synopsys, Description (very long -literature), Options (command options), real description of options (after a couple of pages). I don't want to read man pages where the options of command are after ten pages of scrolling. A tutorial has many literature (by literature underestanding the part that tells to users what's a pager, what's a taskbar and other similar things.) If you are impatient and newbie in the same time the chances of screwing things up are big The To the Impatient was meant to have a pinch of irony/humor. Well, it seems i could not bring it through - sorry about that. Sorry, i misunderestood that one :-( My apologies. best imre Calin ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:33:49PM +0200, szonyi calin wrote: --- Imre Vida [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ?crit?: On Mon, Aug 26, 2002 at 05:28:28PM +0200, szonyi I was also not suggesting to change the (holy) Format either. But i can't fail to note here, that the standard does not seem to be that very strictly defined - see man of man: A manual page consists of several parts. They may be labelled NAME, SYNOPSIS, DESCRIPTION, OPTIONS, FILES, SEE ALSO, BUGS, and AUTHOR. Please note: MAY be labelled. Sorry. Next time i'll double check before saying something Well, the man manpage is not the authorative source for information about man page formats. For Linux, there is the Linux Man Page Howto. Of course this isn't authorative either, but the standard we use for fvwm. Bye Dominik ^_^ ^_^ -- Dominik Vogt, mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], phone: 0721/91374-382 Schlund + Partner AG, Erbprinzenstr. 4-12, D-76133 Karlsruhe -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On Sun, Aug 25, 2002 at 08:29:50PM -0400, Dan Espen wrote: Are you aware that you can start fvwm with no config file at all, press F1 or any mouse button on the root window and fvwm will offer to create a few different configurations for you? yes, it is mentioned in the man but it appears at line 365 in a very modest 2 line sentence (context: .fvwm2rc). it is repeated in a somewhat more extended version at ~1100 (Built in KM Bindings). while I agree that structurally these are apropriate locations, i believe not many newbies can spot and pick up the message (i personally missed them when first read/ scanned through the manual. mind you it is 8000+ lines of heavy text). I think it would be helpful to - to put a To the Impatient setion at the very begining of the man with this info - mention this also in one of the INSTALL and/or README files (e.g. README.sysrc). imre -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
--- Imre Vida [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : On Sun, Aug 25, 2002 at 08:29:50PM -0400, Dan Espen wrote: Are you aware that you can start fvwm with no config file at all, press F1 or any mouse button on the root window and fvwm will offer to create a few different configurations for you? yes, it is mentioned in the man but it appears at line 365 in a very modest 2 line sentence (context: .fvwm2rc). it is repeated in a somewhat more extended version at ~1100 (Built in KM Bindings). while I agree that structurally these are apropriate locations, i believe not many newbies can spot and pick up the message (i personally missed them when first read/ scanned through the manual. mind you it is 8000+ lines of heavy text). I think it would be helpful to - to put a To the Impatient setion at the very begining of the man with this info - mention this also in one of the INSTALL and/or README files (e.g. README.sysrc). Welcome to *nix I think the man page should remain as it is. The man page format is standard. Man page _is_ a reference. Man page _is not_ a tutorial. Will never be. If you are impatient and newbie in the same time the chances of screwing things up are big, so my advice is to start with a configuration file that _works_ and modify it to suit your needs, I think somebody wrote a tutorial for fvwm. Use it. Good luck imre Calin ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On Sun, Aug 25, 2002 at 10:20:47PM +, Mikhael Goikhman wrote: On 25 Aug 2002 16:18:42 -0500, Len Philpot wrote: 2. When I configure a Popup StartMenu, is there a way to accurately control where it appears on screen, in regard to the Start button? If I understood MenuStyle a bit better, maybe the answer is there (PopupOffset, or whatever it's called)...? Yes, you may do this accurately in 2.5.1+, scan NEWS file. In 2.4.x, you may do this too using Rectangle or Mouse hint (there are examples in fvwm-themes), but not as accurately as in 2.5.x. I'm using FvwmTaskBar, with no RootMenu configured, but rather all the same entries on the StartMenu. It pops up just fine when I click the task bar button, but the position is relative to the mouse pointer, not to the task bar. That's what I'm trying to achieve. I'm currently running 2.4.6, BTW (latest RPM for RedHat 7.x I could locate in a quick search). Here's what I've tried to pin down the location: AddToMenu StartMenu Root x y SelectInPlace ...where x and y are various offsets. I would expect x to be 0 and y to basically be height_of_root_window - height_of_menu - height_of_taskbar. In this intance, referencing the lower left corner of the menu would have been more convenient and less prone to change, although menu's typically _do_ drop down, so I see the value in the upperleft reference point. Trouble is, it doesn't seem to make any difference at all what I put there - Nothing ever changes. My MenuStyle is : MenuStyle * Foreground black, Background grey70, Greyed grey90,\ HilightBack grey60, ActiveFore black, Hilight3DThickness -1, \ font -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-*-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-*-*, Animation,\ PopupDelay 55, PopdownDelay 5, TitleWarpOff, SeparatorsLong,\ TrianglesRelief, PopupOffset 0 95 ...with the exception that it's actually all on one line. It works as expected, but is something there interfering? What exactly annoys you about menus and windows? Provide configurations. It's just that I prefer the mouse pointer to stay where it is when I click it. In general, I'm not a big fan of anything in the UI responding or taking any kind of action without an explicit instruction on the part of the user. I'd rather not even have the menu selection move with the mouse without the button being down, given a choice, and I don't care for highlighting icons that change as you mouseover them (so popular in Windows, Gnome, KDE, etc.), but that's just my personal GUI preferences. I like intefaces that are totally static until acted upon by the user. Once again, just my preference. Even under Windows, I don't turn on the option to jump to the active control. With those sort of things active, I tend to spend more time looking for the mouse pointer. The way I have it now, I have no warping happening, at least none I've noticed, so I'm happy with that. Let me clarify something - I may have inadvertently come across as critical of fvwm and the way things are done. That was not intentional, but rather just the product of frustration (indeed, I even stated such in one post). I usually never write when in such a state, as I always regret it later. I'll state again: I like what I'm learning of fvwm and I'm appreciative of the help; it's just that the learning process is somewhat painful at times (at least, it smarts here and there...). -- +-+ | Len Philpothttp://philpot.org/ | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] (alt) | +-+ -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:15:05 -0700 Rainer Koehler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So here is a little suggestion to improve the man page: Insert a section(at the beginning) which deals with the basic configuration faqs - and show examples right there. Most important: Let this section be organized by *the point of view of a beginner* who just wants to change color of background, change the root menu, change the window styles. If he passed that he will have enough starting enegery to go through the rest of the man page. ;-) So, why don't you go ahead and write something like that? [...] Also, I don't think the fvwm developers would be very good at writing a tutorial for beginners. Concidering myself a newbie I'd like to do that. The only problem is: a newbie knows the problems - but can't provide the solutions. I don't think you'll spam the man page if you insert a short section for the main issues beginners have. And, my favorite way to do it is nearly already done: Look at man FvwmIconMan, Configuration Options Reference Chart. Add one single column to it with an example command and there you go. Look, isn't fvwm2 worth it to forget maybe tine a little bit about the guide lines of man pages and follow the wishes of many beginners to fvwm2 - since they'll all start typing m-a-n instead of querying goole for some tutorial? Please excuse my passion - it's just the passion for fvwm2. 'bye Felix -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 07:15:05PM -0700, Rainer Koehler wrote: Fvwm and its documentation are open source, if there's something you don't like, fix it. If you are able to edit your fvwm2rc, you should be able to write a little text about it, you don't need a degree in computer science for that. Agreed - Except that it's a bit difficult to accurately document something in terms someone else can understand when the documetor doesn't understand it. For example, I've seen the following examples for FvwmTaskBar : From the fvwm webpage : Style FvwmTaskBar NoTitle,BorderWidth 4, HandleWidth 4,Sticky, StaysOnTop,WindowSkipList,CirculateSkip # taskbar *FvwmTaskBar: Back #c3c3c3 *FvwmTaskBar: Fore black *FvwmTaskBar: TipsBack bisque *FvwmTaskBar: TipsFore black *FvwmTaskBar: Geometry +0-0 *FvwmTaskBar: Font -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-*-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-* *FvwmTaskBar: SelFont -adobe-helvetica-bold-r-*-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-* *FvwmTaskBar: StatusFont fixed From the FvwmTaskBar 2.6 man page on my system : Style FvwmTaskBar NoTitle,BorderWidth 4, HandleWidth 4,Sticky, StaysOnTop,WindowSkipList,CirculateSkip # taskbar *FvwmTaskBarBack #c3c3c3 *FvwmTaskBarFore black *FvwmTaskBarTipsBack bisque *FvwmTaskBarTipsFore black *FvwmTaskBarGeometry +0-1 *FvwmTaskBarFont -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-*-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-* *FvwmTaskBarSelFont -adobe-helvetica-bold-r-*-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-* *FvwmTaskBarStatusFont fixed I am in no way singling out FvwmTaskBar - I just happened to be working with it lately. The second example works, the first doesn't (as far as I can tell). This is typical of what I'm apparently misunderstanding. It appears that fvwm plays very loose and fast with the config file in terms of syntax? Or am I just missing something? It appears that there's always more than one way to do anything, which I guess has its merits, but is almost always initially more confusing than a tightly controlled syntax. For example, do all of the parts of a function or menu definition need to be in one place (immediately under the AddToFunc or AddToMenu), or can they be spread around. If the latter, what's the advantage? It seems like you'd want them all grouped together anyway, just organizationally. I tend to look on config files in general much like source code - Make them modular, organized and as easy to read as possible. I've seen a couple of replies to my original post that I've yet to read carefully and digest, so I'll not waste bandwidth here asking questions they may answer. However, I do have one concerning FvwmTaskBar (no, make that two) : 1. With BorderWidth and HandleWidth set to 1 or 0, the taskbar doesn't occupy the full width of the screen. Is there a way to force this? 2. When I configure a Popup StartMenu, is there a way to accurately control where it appears on screen, in regard to the Start button? If I understood MenuStyle a bit better, maybe the answer is there (PopupOffset, or whatever it's called)...? OK - One more (general) question : Is there a way to globally turn off mouse pointer warping so that it never warps to a menu, window, whatever? That's one behavior I _really_ would like to get rid of, particularly on popup menus. Thanks. -- +-+ | Len Philpothttp://philpot.org/ | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] (alt) | +-+ -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 10:14:47AM -0400, Dan Espen wrote: Len Philpot [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there a concise, authoritative guide to the proper syntax, organization and such of .fvwm2rc contents somewhere? What I see in the fvwm man page often conflicts with what's in the sample system.fvwm2rc file Please point out the conflicts so that they can be repaired. I've done so on FvwmTaskBar, at least to a small degree, in another post. At this point, I'm not sure how much is inconsistency and how much is just misunderstanding on my part. For example, the MenuStyle line in the system.fvwm2rc that was installed on my system was in the old style, according to the man page. I was trying to basically get the WIN look, with a couple of things changed. However, I couldn't figure out the precedence, so my changes never took effect. Usually, the menu would revert back to the default look (I presume). For menus, this works: MenuStyle * BorderWidth 10 I suspect you are having problems with the borders on windows. Perhaps you missed this in the man page: Right now, I think my issues are more with an understanding of the fundamental syntax of the config file, not the actual values in it. It's looking more and more to me that conceptually, the config file is a bit like Perl in that there are implied values, multiple syntaxes, shorthand notations, etc. Is this correct? If so, that's something that's always given me the willies, personally. I tend to like a specified way of doing something, but that's my preference. Once I understand this, I'm sure I'll settle on one way. Until then, it's a bit confusing. For example, in your MenuStyle example above, what's the asterisk for? All styles? I guess not, since that doesn't make sense, given the context. Should it be in quotes: *? I've seen it that way as well here and there. I understand about quoting values containing spaces, but how about without them? Is there a definite order to options? Is it case-sensitive? Fvwm may be speedy and small, but the amount of configuration possible is massive. Hence the extremly large man page, and difficulty getting started. What I'm thinking of would be along the lines of what we've all seen in programming tutorials : skeleton diagrams with placeholders showing how everything is specified, in what order, what case, with what punctuation, what's mutually exclusive, what's dependent on each other, etc., etc. Then some simple examples that build on each other, instead of a massive .fvwm2rc that can walk and talk and do the jitterbug. Also, make the examples dovetail with FAQs on how and what can be done. Someone else mentioned what I think is a very good idea: Supply a few different config file samples that contain the same content, but with a differnt look and feel (native, Win95, CDE, etc.). That way, a newbie such as myself could see what does and doesn't change. Just my $0.02. -- +-+ | Len Philpothttp://philpot.org/ | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] (alt) | +-+ -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On 25 Aug 2002 16:18:42 -0500, Len Philpot wrote: Agreed - Except that it's a bit difficult to accurately document something in terms someone else can understand when the documetor doesn't understand it. For example, I've seen the following examples for FvwmTaskBar : From the fvwm webpage : Style FvwmTaskBar NoTitle,BorderWidth 4, HandleWidth 4,Sticky, StaysOnTop,WindowSkipList,CirculateSkip # taskbar *FvwmTaskBar: Back #c3c3c3 *FvwmTaskBar: Fore black *FvwmTaskBar: TipsBack bisque *FvwmTaskBar: TipsFore black *FvwmTaskBar: Geometry +0-0 *FvwmTaskBar: Font -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-*-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-* *FvwmTaskBar: SelFont -adobe-helvetica-bold-r-*-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-* *FvwmTaskBar: StatusFont fixed From the FvwmTaskBar 2.6 man page on my system : Style FvwmTaskBar NoTitle,BorderWidth 4, HandleWidth 4,Sticky, StaysOnTop,WindowSkipList,CirculateSkip # taskbar *FvwmTaskBarBack #c3c3c3 *FvwmTaskBarFore black *FvwmTaskBarTipsBack bisque *FvwmTaskBarTipsFore black *FvwmTaskBarGeometry +0-1 *FvwmTaskBarFont -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-*-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-* *FvwmTaskBarSelFont -adobe-helvetica-bold-r-*-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-*-* *FvwmTaskBarStatusFont fixed There is no such version 2.6. The man pages on the web are for fvwm 2.4.x. You seem to use 2.2.x which is very old. Of course, you should contact the man pages matching your version. In 2.4.x both syntaxes should work, but the one in the man page is preferable. I think +0-0 is a more correct geometry than +0-1, but 2.2.x may have some bugs about this. I am in no way singling out FvwmTaskBar - I just happened to be working with it lately. The second example works, the first doesn't (as far as I can tell). This is typical of what I'm apparently misunderstanding. It appears that fvwm plays very loose and fast with the config file in terms of syntax? Or am I just missing something? It appears that there's always more than one way to do anything, which I guess has its merits, but is almost always initially more confusing than a tightly controlled syntax. For example, do all of the parts of a function or menu definition need to be in one place (immediately under the AddToFunc or AddToMenu), or can they be spread around. If the latter, what's the advantage? It seems like you'd want them all grouped together anyway, just organizationally. I tend to look on config files in general much like source code - Make them modular, organized and as easy to read as possible. I've seen a couple of replies to my original post that I've yet to read carefully and digest, so I'll not waste bandwidth here asking questions they may answer. However, I do have one concerning FvwmTaskBar (no, make that two) : 1. With BorderWidth and HandleWidth set to 1 or 0, the taskbar doesn't occupy the full width of the screen. Is there a way to force this? Yes, use the latest stable or unstable versions. 2. When I configure a Popup StartMenu, is there a way to accurately control where it appears on screen, in regard to the Start button? If I understood MenuStyle a bit better, maybe the answer is there (PopupOffset, or whatever it's called)...? Yes, you may do this accurately in 2.5.1+, scan NEWS file. In 2.4.x, you may do this too using Rectangle or Mouse hint (there are examples in fvwm-themes), but not as accurately as in 2.5.x. OK - One more (general) question : Is there a way to globally turn off mouse pointer warping so that it never warps to a menu, window, whatever? That's one behavior I _really_ would like to get rid of, particularly on popup menus. Globally, no. If you bind a menu to a key, it altomatically selects the first selectable menu item (and thus warps the pointer), but after working with such menu the original pointer position is restored. It is good when you work with keyboard only. If you bind a menu to a mouse it does not warp. For example, in the following if you press Ctrl-Shift-F10 it warps, but Ctrl-Shift-Mouse1 does not: Key F10 A CS Menu MenuFvwmRoot Rectangle 1x1+10+10 0 0 Mouse 1 R CS Menu MenuFvwmRoot Rectangle 1x1+10+10 0 0 What exactly annoys you about menus and windows? Provide configurations. Regards, Mikhael. -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On 25 Aug 2002 16:38:44 -0500, Len Philpot wrote: On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 10:14:47AM -0400, Dan Espen wrote: Len Philpot [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there a concise, authoritative guide to the proper syntax, organization and such of .fvwm2rc contents somewhere? What I see in the fvwm man page often conflicts with what's in the sample system.fvwm2rc file Please point out the conflicts so that they can be repaired. I've done so on FvwmTaskBar, at least to a small degree, in another post. At this point, I'm not sure how much is inconsistency and how much is just misunderstanding on my part. For example, the MenuStyle line in the system.fvwm2rc that was installed on my system was in the old style, according to the man page. I was trying to basically get the WIN look, with a couple of things changed. However, I couldn't figure out the precedence, so my changes never took effect. Usually, the menu would revert back to the default look (I presume). I hope when you install the version that corresponds to the man pages, the man pages may just magically start to work. At least I hope so. :) For menus, this works: MenuStyle * BorderWidth 10 I suspect you are having problems with the borders on windows. Perhaps you missed this in the man page: Right now, I think my issues are more with an understanding of the fundamental syntax of the config file, not the actual values in it. It's looking more and more to me that conceptually, the config file is a bit like Perl in that there are implied values, multiple syntaxes, shorthand notations, etc. Is this correct? If so, that's something that's always given me the willies, personally. I tend to like a specified way of doing something, but that's my preference. Once I understand this, I'm sure I'll settle on one way. Until then, it's a bit confusing. I would not say the syntax is fundamentally weak, i.e. supports all kinds of errors or different ways of doing the same. In some places (usually some exotic modules) the syntax is very unforgivable without enough error messages. There is also a lot of backward compatibility stuff, this is probably why you think there are several ways of doing the same. For example, in your MenuStyle example above, what's the asterisk for? All styles? I guess not, since that doesn't make sense, given the context. I think the man page entry for MenuStyle (and other commands in the COMMANDS FOR MENUS section) explains what asterisk means. Should it be in quotes: *? I've seen it that way as well here and there. I understand about quoting values containing spaces, but how about without them? There are some places (usually modules, again) when you should strictly write it without quotes or, instead, with quotes depending on what the man page says. But for the core fvwm, the rule is usually simple. There is a concept of word (or token). This is either something without spaces and other delimiters or something that is in quotes (there are 3 pairs of quotes). So, * and * are the same, but * and * are not, because spaces are only significal when in quotes. Is there a definite order to options? Do you mean the order of commands or the order of options in a command? Almost in all cases (unless the man pages says otherwise) if a command has multiple optional options, their order does not matter. Of course, the order of mandatory parameters does matter. Example: the order of options in commands Style, MenuStyle (forget the obsolete syntax of MenuStyle), ButtonStyle, TitleStyle, WindowList, BusyCursor does not matter. If some option in these commands is not specified there is a good default. Some commands depend on the result of other commands, in this case the order of commands matters. Otherwise it does not matter. Simple, no? :-) Is it case-sensitive? It is preferable to stick to the case used in the man pages to be sure. But a lot of places are case-insensitive for convenience. Fvwm may be speedy and small, but the amount of configuration possible is massive. Hence the extremly large man page, and difficulty getting started. What I'm thinking of would be along the lines of what we've all seen in programming tutorials : skeleton diagrams with placeholders showing how everything is specified, in what order, what case, with what punctuation, what's mutually exclusive, what's dependent on each other, etc., etc. Then some simple examples that build on each other, instead of a massive .fvwm2rc that can walk and talk and do the jitterbug. Also, make the examples dovetail with FAQs on how and what can be done. Unfortunately there is a problem with who will do this. Do you want to help with this? Someone else mentioned what I think is a very good idea: Supply a few different config file samples that contain the same content, but with a differnt look and feel (native, Win95, CDE, etc.). That way, a newbie such as myself could see what does and doesn't change. But if
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
f [EMAIL PROTECTED] net writes: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:15:05 -0700 Rainer Koehler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, why don't you go ahead and write something like that? [...] Also, I don't think the fvwm developers would be very good at writing a tutorial for beginners. Concidering myself a newbie I'd like to do that. The only problem is: a newbie knows the problems - but can't provide the solutions. You can ask the questions here and collect the answers. I'm always surprised how patiently the developers answer the same questions over and over again (except that after a while, all my keybindings stop working :-) Questions with concrete wishes are much easier to answer than I fiddled with the config file for hours and it didn't work. I don't think you'll spam the man page if you insert a short section for the main issues beginners have. And, my favorite way to do it is nearly already done: Look at man FvwmIconMan, Configuration Options Reference Chart. Add one single column to it with an example command and there you go. Hmm, I think the same table for fvwm itself would be sevaral pages long, but I agree, it would be a good idea to have something like that. Look, isn't fvwm2 worth it to forget maybe tine a little bit about the guide lines of man pages and follow the wishes of many beginners to fvwm2 - since they'll all start typing m-a-n instead of querying goole for some tutorial? Well, I consider someone who knows about man and is willing to use it no longer a real newbie :-) Another post here raised suspicion that someone read the manpage on the web and tried to apply it to the fvwm on his system (without success because he uses a different version). So maybe it would be better to write it in HTML. For many, it might be easier to write something in HTML than to write a manpage. But the format doesnt really matter, what's missing is the content! I would vote for splitting the manpage into some kind of introduction or a tutorial and a reference manual, but so far, only the reference part exists. Please excuse my passion - it's just the passion for fvwm2. I think we share that passion, that's why I get a bit angry when someone complains about the manpage without giving the impression that he is willing to do something about it. Cheers, Rainer -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 22:01:27 -0500 Len Philpot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] never get there. I'm having the do *EVERYTHIHG* by trial and error, since the man page is so vague (or maybe I'm just stupid...?). Hi, I just wanted to add that fvwm2 is a great window manager - but I agree that the man page is hard to read and understand! So here is a little suggestion to improve the man page: Insert a section (at the beginning) which deals with the basic configuration faqs - and show examples right there. Most important: Let this section be organized by *the point of view of a beginner* who just wants to change color of background, change the root menu, change the window styles. If he passed that he will have enough starting enegery to go through the rest of the man page. ;-) (I hope the one who wrote the man page is not insalted ... ;-) Bye Felix -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
On 23 Aug 2002 22:01:27 -0500, Len Philpot wrote: Is there a concise, authoritative guide to the proper syntax, organization and such of .fvwm2rc contents somewhere? What I see in the fvwm man page often conflicts with what's in the sample system.fvwm2rc file and the few pointers I do find in the man pages are scattered and terse, to say the least. The only authoritative guide to the proper syntax is man pages. You may just start with an empty file and put any commands described in the man page in any order according to your needs. Use functions for efficiency. Usually you need at least: # StartFunction to start modules, InitFunction to start apps # mouse and key bindings # color definitions, I suggest to use colorsets # window decorations including border, buttons, title bar # menu definitions # module configurations # global and window specific styles If you want examples, I can suggest is to take a look at the themes of fvwm-themes. For example, here is the content of the default theme: background + bindings + buttons + colors + cursors fonts + functions + functions-appbind + globalfeel + globallook + menus + menus-programs + menustyle + modules/ settings/ sound startup + styles + windowlook Most of these components are plain fvwmrc configs, but not all. There are several special functions that make the whole thing configurable and efficient that you may ignore when creating .fvwm2rc. I marked by plus the components that you may just learn from. If you like the concept of dividing the entire configuration into replaceable components, you may customize fvwm-themes by creating your own theme (directory) with several components (files), but read its FAQ first. Sorry if I sound frustrated, but I am... I've just spent 30 minutes or more with one MenuStyle line trying to get it to work (without success). Despite close to an hour's work, I've been unable to get FvwmTaskBar to appear at the bottom of the screen (despite following the examples from the man page). I can change the border widths and nothing ever happens. I've used the recommended geometry, but it always appears at the top of the screen. I'm light years away from doing anything useful with it, but at this rate I'll never get there. I'm having the do *EVERYTHIHG* by trial and error, since the man page is so vague (or maybe I'm just stupid...?). Do the following. Open FvwmConsole (start it in StartFunction or bind to a menu). Then type these commands in FvwmConsole: *FvwmTaskBar: Geometry +0-0 FvwmTaskBar Does it still appear on the top? Is it possible you change another .fvwm2rc? You should edit ~/.fvwm/.fvwm2rc. I'm rapidly reaching my frustration threshold before moving on to something else. There has to be somewhere a definition of exactly what is and isn't allowed configuration-wise, where specific entries need to go, recommended order, syntax restrictions, case-sensitivity, etc., etc. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. I really like the speed and small size of fvwm, but the appalling lack of documentation is about to convince me to look elsewhere... The man pages are complete, although may contain small glitches that are constantly fixed. Please try to narrow your problems with documentation. For each problem start a new thread here and specify what you did, what you got and what you want/expect to get. Provide all relevent details. Regards, Mikhael. -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
Len Philpot [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there a concise, authoritative guide to the proper syntax, organization and such of .fvwm2rc contents somewhere? What I see in the fvwm man page often conflicts with what's in the sample system.fvwm2rc file Please point out the conflicts so that they can be repaired. Sorry if I sound frustrated, but I am... ... I can change the border widths and nothing ever happens. There are 2 borderwidths, for windows and menus. For menus, this works: MenuStyle * BorderWidth 10 I suspect you are having problems with the borders on windows. Perhaps you missed this in the man page: With the NoHandles style, the window does not get the handles in the window corners that are commonly used to resize it. With NoHandles, the width from the BorderWidth style is used. By default, or if Handles is is specified, the width from the Han dleWidth style is used. So, if you have Style * NoHandles Then this works: Style * BorderWidth 10 Otherwise, use this: Style * HandleWidth 10 I'm rapidly reaching my frustration threshold before moving on to something else. There has to be somewhere a definition of exactly what is and isn't allowed configuration-wise, where specific entries need to go, recommended order, syntax restrictions, case-sensitivity, etc., etc. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. I really like the speed and small size of fvwm, but the appalling lack of documentation is about to convince me to look elsewhere... Fvwm may be speedy and small, but the amount of configuration possible is massive. Hence the extremly large man page, and difficulty getting started. -- Dan Espen E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 444 Hoes Lane Room RRC 1C-214 Phone: (732) 699-5570 Piscataway, NJ 08854 -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FVWM: .fvwm2rc syntax guide?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] de writes: On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 22:01:27 -0500 Len Philpot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] never get there. I'm having the do *EVERYTHIHG* by trial and error, since the man page is so vague (or maybe I'm just stupid...?). Hi, I just wanted to add that fvwm2 is a great window manager - but I agree that the man page is hard to read and understand! So here is a little suggestion to improve the man page: Insert a section (at the beginning) which deals with the basic configuration faqs - and show examples right there. Most important: Let this section be organized by *the point of view of a beginner* who just wants to change color of background, change the root menu, change the window styles. If he passed that he will have enough starting enegery to go through the rest of the man page. ;-) So, why don't you go ahead and write something like that? With this ongoing discussion about the manpage, I'd like to add my two cents (US or Euro - I don't know). I've been using fvwm longer than I can remember. However, I can remember the times when it was maintained by Rob Nation, and I think there's still a tape with my config-file for fvwm 1.xy, although I doubt that I can find a drive to read it. The thing I like most about fvwm is it nearly infinite flexibility and configurability. That comes with a price, the documentation is only for someone who is willing to read a whole reference manual before he starts using the program. But even the best documentation would be long (probably too long for newbies) and difficult to understand because for many things you have to understand the whole picture (which sometimes includes more than fvwm). And frankly, I don't want the fvwm developers to write documentation for beginning. I want them to fix old bugs and add new features so I can get more out of it. That works pretty well so far. If fvwm came with a graphical configuration tool, I could as well use Gnome, KDE, or M$-Windows. Also, I don't think the fvwm developers would be very good at writing a tutorial for beginners. You have to remember how it was when you were a newby to write something a newby can understand. It would probably be best if someone who wrote or modified his first fvwm2rc not too long ago would write a few paragraphs about what he wanted and how he achieved it. I'm sure the developers would be willing to comment on it and give advice if there are better ways to achieve the desired behavior. But it's *YOU*, the newbies out there who know what the confusing things are, not the fvwm developers! Fvwm and its documentation are open source, if there's something you don't like, fix it. If you are able to edit your fvwm2rc, you should be able to write a little text about it, you don't need a degree in computer science for that. Thank you for your attention, I go back to lurking now. Rainer -- Visit the official FVWM web page at URL: http://www.fvwm.org/. To unsubscribe from the list, send unsubscribe fvwm in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To report problems, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
