Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
On Feb 19, 2011, at 11:29 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: There is no joy to be had from this GeForce 5200 FX graphics card. The 5200 is usually a pretty good card, it supports both Quartz Extreme Core Image. Have you checked the firmware revision in System Profiler against other versions available at the MacElite ROM repository?: http://themacelite.wikidot.com/wikidownloads These cards are usually solid, perhaps a new ROM version will solve your problems? If not, you need to ditch the Rage and get another AGP card that supports Quartz Extreme Core Image. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
The 5200 is usually a pretty good card, it supports both Quartz Extreme Core Image. Have you checked the firmware revision in System Profiler against other versions available at the MacElite ROM repository?: No, wasn't aware, and thanks much for the link. These cards are usually solid, perhaps a new ROM version will solve your problems? If not, you need to ditch the Rage and get another AGP card that supports Quartz Extreme Core Image. Yes, the 5200 seemed like a sensible and straightforward way to get the Core Image and Quartz Extreme support. I'm not a gamer and don't currently do anything that would push a video card, but it's a matter of getting a little more modern (hand in hand with other modest upgrades) and getting the most out of Leopard, which, now that I'm able to at last, I think I'd like to try. The card came from Operator Headgap Systems. and as advertised, it seemed to be a matter of put it in and go. I took another look at the copy for the card on the OHS website, and I see now that installation instructions were to have come with it. I didn't receive any. All I got was what seems to be the OHS standard OS 9 Kitchen Sink CD, although nothing in the order I placed had anything in particular to do with OS 9, and on that CD, I found nothing relevant to the GeForce 5200 FX. After all the grief the 5200 has caused, I'm hesitant to put it back in and try it again. But of course I will, thanks to this new lead you've given me. Just not today. Yesterday was a nightmare. Lately all this work *on* the computer has pushed away all the fun I could be having *with* the computer. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
Here's what the Tiger 10.4.11 System Profiler had to say about the 5200 when it was installed: Graphics/Displays: GeForce FX 5200: Chipset Model:GeForce FX 5200 Type: Display Bus: AGP Slot: SLOT-A VRAM (Total): 256 MB Vendor: nVIDIA (0x10de) Device ID:0x0321 Revision ID: 0x00b1 ROM Revision: 2060 Displays: DELL S2009W: Resolution: 1600 x 900 @ 60 Hz Depth:32-bit Color Core Image: Supported Main Display: Yes Mirror: Off Online: Yes Quartz Extreme: Supported Display: Status: No display connected I've looked into Kris's The Mac elite link. Closest match for the 5200, under the heading Original NVIDIA PPC ROMs is an FX 5200 Ultra with a ROM revision matching the above 2060. However, it also shows a different RAM size than the above. Next closest match is under the heading Modified NVIDIA PPC ROMs, the various XFX PVT44AWANG GeForce 6200 listings that show a ROM revision of 2149a and a matching 256 MB RAM size. I clicked on the Hacking NVIDIA Extensions Support link. The phrase Kernel panic at boot jumped into focus immediately, as you might expect. So, let me see here. Hnmmm. I might have a card with Original NVIDIA PPC ROM, or maybe that's what I'm supposed to have gotten but actually got a card with Modified NVIDIA PPC ROM with an inappropriate ROM revision. Plausible? I'm only guessing. I've got a card that just don't work, or rather, one that works, but really doesn't work. It seems clear that for whatever reason, the following might apply, and I quote (from The Mac Elite): Some cards can be made to work in OS X with custom ROM, however OS X extensions does not support the card's hardwired device ID, so it would result in a Kernel Panic at boot. If the card is close to another officially supported card in OS X or use the same GPU, there's an easy hack which will allow it to operate in OS X. I don't know why OHS would sell me a card I had to hack to make work. Perhaps that was what the missing installation instructions were about. I'll see what they have to say, and take another look at the CD-ROM they sent me in the meantime. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
Comparing this excerpt from the (Unresolved kernel trap) crash report: Kernel loadable modules in backtrace (with dependencies): com.apple.GeForce(4.1.8)@0x89d000 dependency: com.apple.iokit.IOPCIFamily(1.7)@0x46 dependency: com.apple.iokit.IOGraphicsFamily(1.4.2) @0x598000 dependency: com.apple.iokit.IONDRVSupport(1.4.2)@0x5bc000 dependency: com.apple.NVDAResman(4.1.8)@0x5d2000 With this from System Profiler/Extensions: IOPCIFamily: Version: 1.7 Last Modified:10/15/07 9:46 AM Get Info String: 1.7, Copyright Apple Computer, Inc. 2000-2004 Location: /System/Library/Extensions/IOPCIFamily.kext kext Version: 1.7 Load Address: 0x46 Valid:Yes Authentic:Yes Dependencies: Satisfied Integrity:Correct IOGraphicsFamily: Version: 1.4.2 Last Modified:12/2/07 2:26 AM Get Info String: 1.4.2, Copyright Apple Computer, Inc. 2000-2004 Location: /System/Library/Extensions/IOGraphicsFamily.kext kext Version: 1.4.2 Load Address: 0x7ca000 Valid:Yes Authentic:Yes Dependencies: Satisfied Integrity:Correct IONDRVSupport: Version: 1.4.2 Last Modified:12/2/07 2:26 AM Get Info String: 1.4.2, Copyright Apple Computer, Inc. 2000-2004 Location: /System/Library/Extensions/IONDRVSupport.kext kext Version: 1.4.2 Load Address: 0x7ee000 Valid:Yes Authentic:Yes Dependencies: Satisfied Integrity:Correct Does it mean anything that the Load Addresses in the last 2 above don't match what I presume to be intended as Load Addresses in the crash report? Or that there is no NVDAResman extension appearing in System Profiler? Does that excerpt from the crash report convey anything more than We don't like this new card - please remove it forthwith? Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
On Feb 20, 2011, at 8:18 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: With this from System ProfilerExtensions: What does System ProfilerGraphics/DisplaysnVidia GeForce FX5200 say? Specifically, Vendor Device IDs and the ROM Revision? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
Another oddity with this GeForce 5200 FX. It was advertised as 128 MB, and shows up in System Profiler with 256 MB VRAM. There are two labels on the card itself. One says: FX 5200 128MB/128bit DDR The other: ZO52-CAGP 5200 128 MB AGP The nefarious underworld of video cards. Who knew they were so weird? I didn't. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
What does System ProfilerGraphics/DisplaysnVidia GeForce FX5200 say? Heh. That was in my previous post, but again: Graphics/Displays: GeForce FX 5200: Chipset Model:GeForce FX 5200 Type: Display Bus: AGP Slot: SLOT-A VRAM (Total): 256 MB Vendor: nVIDIA (0x10de) Device ID:0x0321 Revision ID: 0x00b1 ROM Revision: 2060 Displays: DELL S2009W: Resolution: 1600 x 900 @ 60 Hz Depth:32-bit Color Core Image: Supported Main Display: Yes Mirror: Off Online: Yes Quartz Extreme: Supported Display: Status: No display connected Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
On Feb 20, 2011, at 8:54 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: Graphics/Displays: GeForce FX 5200: Chipset Model: GeForce FX 5200 Type: Display Bus: AGP Slot: SLOT-A VRAM (Total): 256 MB Vendor:nVIDIA (0x10de) Device ID: 0x0321 Revision ID: 0x00b1 ROM Revision: 2060 Another oddity with this GeForce 5200 FX. It was advertised as 128 MB, and shows up in System Profiler with 256 MB VRAM. There are two labels on the card itself. One says: FX 5200 128MB/128bit DDR The other: ZO52-CAGP 5200 128 MB AGP The nefarious underworld of video cards. Who knew they were so weird? I didn't. There are likely some issues here. This card is made by Zogis, so it's a flashed PC card for certain. As far as I can tell, all the 128MB cards were 64bit cards. It appears the 128bit cards were all 256MB. It doesn't appear you'll need to tape pins 3 11 for this card to work in your Sawtooth. If you ever plan to transfer this card to any of the ADC Macs which are the Cube, DA, Gigabit, QS, and MDD you'll need to fix pins 3 11. See:http://themacelite.wikidot.com/pins-3-and-11 There's a good chance your ROM may be wrong for this card. The ROM revision doesn't really help because there was only one Mac ROM, version 2060, and every card will have v.2060, but there are several versions of 2060 ROMs, and they vary for different speed VRAM GPU, and also for 64bit or 128bit. If the card has a 256MB 128bit ROM and it's really a 128MB 64bit card, this could cause the panics you're seeing because the Mac would be trying to address VRAM that doesn't physically exist. My advice is to first figure out exactly what card you have. Next, you'll want to be sure the ROM you select has the correct bit, MB, and speed to match your card. I think the real Mac card uses Device ID 0x0322 rather than 0x0321 so you may want to have that changed also, but I'm not sure if it matters or not? It may take some experimentation to get the correct ROM so that this card doesn't panic. I sent a link to the ROMs repository. I think it's likely you have the wrong ROM for the physical hardware on the card, and that getting a matching ROM will stop the panics. I might able to assist off-list if you need further assistance. Here's some reading on the FX5200: http://lowendmac.com/video/agp/geforce-5200.html -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
There are likely some issues here. This card is made by Zogis, so it's a flashed PC card for certain. As far as I can tell, all the 128MB cards were 64bit cards. It appears the 128bit cards were all 256MB. Thanks for all the good information and the offer to help, Kris. I need to mull things over. I might return the card and go for something else. I might try a fix. I would like to know what OHS has to say about it. Email does not appear to be their preferred mode of communication, so maybe I'll have to call, if I can remember how to work a... a... what were they called? Telephones? Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
Conclusion: There is no joy to be had from this GeForce 5200 FX graphics card. Tiger booting problems and kernel panics during booting, restarts, and occasionally while running applications (Console, Safari, Mail), and possibly an OS 9 problem because of it. I can't absolutely make that connection myself. Seems weird that such problems would persist and even get worse when the GeForce had been removed again. Problems with PRAM must figure into this whole mess as well. I hope I have that part all straightened out now (with lessons learned). But I'm sore afraid that I might not. It occurred to me to ask why the very first startup with the new card had gone so well. What changed? I racked my brains trying to think of what I did in between seemingly OK and disaster. I remembered a couple things. One was that I *did* fiddle, mechanically, with the card again early on, being concerned about whether I had really seated it properly. I think the fiddling was after the trouble started, but the concern was there to begin with. I began today with a plan to start over with the GeForce. Today's sequence of events (FWIW, new PRAM battery installed yesterday): Disconnect everything external, open side door, remove ATIRage128Pro card, reinstall GeForce card (did not reset CUDA this time, as I did not when the ATI card had gone back in) Close side door, reconnect everything external, power button on Tiger boots up lightning fast, I log in, everything normal and good Select OS 9 volume from SPStartup Disk and restart OS 9.2.2 boots up fine, I log in, error message requiring restart (I've seen this before, so I try a different tack) Shut down with power button Power on, option key held down, attempt to boot from Tiger volume (same HD, the older PATA one) Apple screen, spinning dial... gray screen Shut down with power button Power on, shift key held down Boot into OS 9.2.2 (not what I wanted or expected) extensions off, I log in through different dialog box after message about system password required, no error 10 Go to Control PanelsStartup Disk, select Tiger volume, restart Tiger boots up, I log in, all good Go to Apple menuRestart Blue screen, then the kernel panic screen Shut down with power button Power on, option key held down, attempt to boot from Tiger volume Tiger boots up, I log in, all good Go to SPStartup Disk, select current Tiger volume, restart Tiger boots up, I log in, all good Go to Apple menuShut Down Power on, Tiger boots up with utterly blinding speed, I log in, all good I open Console and look around... Console freezes and then hangs, Spinning Pinwheel of Death appears, and then the kernel panic screen Shut down with power button Power on, Tiger boots up, I log in, all good (but obviously not really good) - crash report is the same old thing indicting the GeForce card Go to SPStartup Disk, select Panther volume (same PATA HD), restart Panther boots up, I log in, all good, back to SPStartup Disk, select Tiger volume, restart Tiger boots up, I log in, all good, back to SPStartup Disk, select Tiger volume on the SATA HD this time, restart Tiger-SATA boots up, I log in, all good, back to SPStartup Disk, select Tiger volume on PATA HD this time, restart Kernel panic screen, shut down with power button, power on with option key held down, select Tiger volume on PATA HD Gray screen, shut down with power button, power on with option key held down, hold down shift key and select Tiger volume on PATA HD Safe Boot into Tiger, I log in, go to SPStartup Disk, select current Tiger volume, restart Normal boot into Tiger, I log in, all good Go to SPStartup Disk, Panther volume on SATA HD, restart Kernel panic screen, shut down with power button, power on with option key held down, select Tiger volume on PATA HD Safe boot into Tiger, I log in, go to Apple menuRestart Normal boot into Tiger, I log in, empty kernel panic Trash, go to Apple menuShut Down At this point it was time to start over again and try a different path from there. Disconnect, open, reseat card, cooperating with its want to sit lower toward the in-side, leave mounting screw off, press CUDA button Close, reconnect, power on Kernel panic screen OK, the seemingly abnormal mounting screw situation isn't the cause of improper seating. Disconnect, open, put GeForce card mounting screw back in, press CUDA for a few seconds to make sure I was really pressing it all (it's so small, and my fingertips rather insensitive) Close, reconnect, power button on, option key, select Tiger volume Gray screen Disconnect, open, reseat card yet again - level, also paying particular attention to perpendicular this time (CUDA? Forget CUDA. I'm sick of CUDA) Close, reconnect, power button on, option key, hold down shift and select Tiger volume Safe Boot into Tiger, I log in, empty Trash, go to Apple menuRestart Hold down option key, select Tiger volume Normal boot into Tiger, I log
Re: Sawtooth/Tiger boot problems
Removed new video card and reinstalled old one - immediate problem solved. No booting problems. OS 9 problem (see below) has changed from Login Error forcing a restart to Application Login has quit unexpectedly with no apparent ill effect. Each of the panics in this log show the crash occurred in the driver for your video card. Either the card is foo, or it's not seated properly, or Yes, thanks - sometimes it takes asking a stupid question to open one's eyes. After posting the panic log, I saw the obvious that I'd missed. Details, or are they secret? And after such major upgrading did you reset your PMU? Yes, I reset the PMU after all the new stuff ( GeForce 5200 FX video card, USB 2.0 card, Sonnet SATA card and factory recertified Seagate SATA 7200 RPM, 750 GB HD, Sonnet ST/G4 1.0 GHz CPU) had been installed and before starting up for the first time after the upgrade. Yes, spreading the information around across multiple threads makes problems so much easier to solve. Seriously - please provide ALL the information in ONE thread. Don't waste people's time, making us sort thru the hundreds of threads on G3-5 to locate your particulars. I get your point, Dan, but you misunderstand - perhaps you overlooked my term another sense. This thread was intended to be about one particular problem. What I didn't want to waste anyone's time with was an overly detailed description of the upgrade. I wanted to share the whole upgrade experience in another thread, to invite comment and much less urgently needed answers there. I didn't know positively (then) that the boot problem could be pinned on any part of the upgrade, but I had to *mention* major upgrading as a possibly relevant detail. If I had known precisely *how* it was relevant, I wouldn't have posted anything about the trouble without first reinstalling the old video card. You have to re-select the boot volume each time? That means the startup disk isn't being stored in the pram properly. Try replacing your PRAM Battery. Reinstalling the old video card and having Tiger boot up as it should from the get-go would seem to indicate - now - that the startup disk is being stored in the PRAM just fine. I do have fresh - or at least new - PRAM batteries on hand, however. The problem started (after the first couple uneventful and successful boots from PATA HD with SATA connected but unformatted) with gray screens after brief blue and before the startup window appeared. The very first sign of any trouble anywhere was that after booting normally for the first time into OS 9.2.2 and logging in, I got a Login Error (error 10) requiring restart. I clicked on Restart, the button went black - and just stayed that way. I continued to work in OS 9, installing USB FireWire drivers from an OHS CD, and the error window just went away eventually. After selecting Restart in OS 9 from the Special menu, normal booting was over. The following procedure worked for a while: Power on, zap PRAM Hold down option key (gray screen - or blue screen with eventual kernel panic message - again otherwise) With main Tiger volume preselected' in the array of volumes, click on arrow When this magic failed (zapping PRAM became ineffectual) after a few successes (got into Tiger and everything was fine there - OS 9 still gave the Login Error message, which was now fatal), the procedure became boot twice to boot once: Power on, hold down option key Hold down shift key and then click arrow for preselected Tiger volume After Safe Boot into Tiger and login, restart (didn't matter how, whether through Apple menu or SPStartup Disk) Hold down option key (still necessary), etc., without the Safe Boot (blue screen, brief gray screen, screen goes black, then normal Tiger wakes up and is back in business) I am trying to recall what I tried or changed over the course of things going from bad to worse. Either in normal unsafe Tiger or booted from the Tiger install CD, I formatted and partitioned the new SATA drive with Disk Utility. I CCD'd all my volumes (all partitions within the first 128 GB) from the PATA HD to the SATA (all partitions within the first 128 GB). During the relatively brief Age of PRAM- Zapping, I was careful to run the enable-lba48 patch each time I got back in after a zap, and saw that it was applied even after the abnormal restarts (the outer partition free space volume on the PATA would reappear on the desktop - the appearance of the SATA free space volume was never affected). I booted into pre-upgrade reinstalled more-basic Panther (through one of the same special procedures as above) and played around with getting it to work (like Tiger and OS 9 do) with the Gig-E ethernet card both before and after updating to 10.3.9 - still no go there, only connects with built-in ethernet despite supposedly correct drivers and apparent recognition
