Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. Tolkien invested a lot of his life to building up the history, languages, and myths for his books which is one reason they are so good. Few authors devote that much effort for their work and are far less developed in scope. This is why it is difficult for a game developer with a casual interest to just write a game set in Middle Earth because he or she needs to know as much about the world, its history, languages, cosmology, and myths as the fans do. As you yourself pointed out we aren't just talking about changes in a universe created for TV, but the changes in a historical record that is very detailed and precise. Only a person very educated in that historical record should write the back story for that game and create believable characters for that type of universe. Anyone else is going to make mistakes that will not appeal to the fans. For instance, as someone who has only read the books a couple of times and watched the movies once or twice it totally escaped me that the reason Frodo and Sam managed to make it to Mount Doom successfully and destroy the ring was because Sauron was under the mistaken belief that anyone who found it would use it not destroy it. When you pointed out I see clearly the reasons why and can recall the books saying as much, but I wasn't paying that close attention to it to be honest. It was just casual reading at the time, and I might have made a mistake like Peter Jackson did as a result. Cheers! On 4/21/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I do take your point, and it is certainly true in terms of Doctor who and starwars I've seen a lot of things slide and it is also true I can enjoy a game as a game just as well as the next person. one intrinsic problem in lotr however, is that you are dealing with something far more serious when messing around with the history and plot than you are with most other series. tolkien spent literally his entire life working on the languages, history, cosmology and myths of middle earth, so completely that there is year and date info for every event in the books, (and many that are not), and much of the events fall very much into this pattern. to take one example, there is a scene in the two towers film in which Frodo and sam are dragged to osgiliath by Faramir where they witness a battle with the nazgul. Even if we overlook the fact that Faramir's character from a purely literary perspective got a complete reversal in the film, during this battle Frodo drops the ring and it's revealed to a Nazgul who then flies off. The chief purpose of Frodo's errand in the book and the reason it succeeded is that Sauron would assume that if anyone found the ring, they would naturally wish (as he would in their place), to use it against him, and not to destroy it. Thus, all of Sauron's efforts were based on crushing Gondor and the west before anyone could find the ring and with it's power challenge him, which was precisely why two hobbits crawling into Mordor to the very heart of his own land, seaking not to wield the ring but to destroy it is something he missed. yet, in the film we see one of Sauron's chief servants, (which he has mental communication with), see the one thing he needs to conquer the entire world, very lightly defended, in the hands of a hobbit on the outskirts of his land, indeed he already had a huge army massing at Minas morgul which was perhaps 20 miles from osgilliath. yet, we see Sauron in the film literally not acknolidging this fact, and carrying on with his attacks regardless. this scene in the film Peter jackson obviously put in for visual appeal, and to have a face off betwene frodo and the Nazgul, however he in no way considdered the more serious historysurrounding it. There are some great articals on this (which are very fair), on the encyclopedia of Arda website.http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ This is why Tolkien fan's in particular have such a thing about Cannon, since your not just talking about changes in a universe created for tv, but changes in a full and complete historical reccord. As another example, and one related to games, you mentioned including gandalf in a game. The problem is however, Gandalf is actually a being of the same order and magnitude as Sauron himself, a Maia. While he chooses not to exercise his power much of the time, it is really only beings of the same order as himself that could present a problem, one reason why he tells even Arragorn, probably one of the finest warriors in middle earth (not to mention Boromir, Gimly and legolas), this is a foe beyond any of you when he confronts the Balrog. suppose however you made a game in which Gandalf was the same rank as other characters, had a standard energy meater and could be ko'd by an orc just as easily as a mortal. Without knowing Gandalf's background (only hinted at in Lotr, though fully explained in the Silmarillion), you might assume he
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
The sad part is Jackson knew perfectly well. But thou must! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 1:59 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. Tolkien invested a lot of his life to building up the history, languages, and myths for his books which is one reason they are so good. Few authors devote that much effort for their work and are far less developed in scope. This is why it is difficult for a game developer with a casual interest to just write a game set in Middle Earth because he or she needs to know as much about the world, its history, languages, cosmology, and myths as the fans do. As you yourself pointed out we aren't just talking about changes in a universe created for TV, but the changes in a historical record that is very detailed and precise. Only a person very educated in that historical record should write the back story for that game and create believable characters for that type of universe. Anyone else is going to make mistakes that will not appeal to the fans. For instance, as someone who has only read the books a couple of times and watched the movies once or twice it totally escaped me that the reason Frodo and Sam managed to make it to Mount Doom successfully and destroy the ring was because Sauron was under the mistaken belief that anyone who found it would use it not destroy it. When you pointed out I see clearly the reasons why and can recall the books saying as much, but I wasn't paying that close attention to it to be honest. It was just casual reading at the time, and I might have made a mistake like Peter Jackson did as a result. Cheers! On 4/21/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I do take your point, and it is certainly true in terms of Doctor who and starwars I've seen a lot of things slide and it is also true I can enjoy a game as a game just as well as the next person. one intrinsic problem in lotr however, is that you are dealing with something far more serious when messing around with the history and plot than you are with most other series. tolkien spent literally his entire life working on the languages, history, cosmology and myths of middle earth, so completely that there is year and date info for every event in the books, (and many that are not), and much of the events fall very much into this pattern. to take one example, there is a scene in the two towers film in which Frodo and sam are dragged to osgiliath by Faramir where they witness a battle with the nazgul. Even if we overlook the fact that Faramir's character from a purely literary perspective got a complete reversal in the film, during this battle Frodo drops the ring and it's revealed to a Nazgul who then flies off. The chief purpose of Frodo's errand in the book and the reason it succeeded is that Sauron would assume that if anyone found the ring, they would naturally wish (as he would in their place), to use it against him, and not to destroy it. Thus, all of Sauron's efforts were based on crushing Gondor and the west before anyone could find the ring and with it's power challenge him, which was precisely why two hobbits crawling into Mordor to the very heart of his own land, seaking not to wield the ring but to destroy it is something he missed. yet, in the film we see one of Sauron's chief servants, (which he has mental communication with), see the one thing he needs to conquer the entire world, very lightly defended, in the hands of a hobbit on the outskirts of his land, indeed he already had a huge army massing at Minas morgul which was perhaps 20 miles from osgilliath. yet, we see Sauron in the film literally not acknolidging this fact, and carrying on with his attacks regardless. this scene in the film Peter jackson obviously put in for visual appeal, and to have a face off betwene frodo and the Nazgul, however he in no way considdered the more serious historysurrounding it. There are some great articals on this (which are very fair), on the encyclopedia of Arda website.http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ This is why Tolkien fan's in particular have such a thing about Cannon, since your not just talking about changes in a universe created for tv, but changes in a full and complete historical reccord. As another example, and one related to games, you mentioned including gandalf in a game. The problem is however, Gandalf is actually a being of the same order and magnitude as Sauron himself, a Maia. While he chooses not to exercise his power much of the time, it is really only beings of the same order as himself that could present a problem, one reason why he tells even Arragorn, probably one of the finest warriors in middle earth (not to mention Boromir, Gimly and legolas), this is a foe beyond any of you when he confronts the Balrog. suppose however you made a game in which Gandalf
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi Tom. I'd actually recommend looking at the articals on the encyyclopedia of arda site as I said, since they're really well written, intended for people like yourself who are casual fans, and yet highlight some of the differences betwene the films and books, and which differences cause major and severe problems with the history of Middle earth, and which they think are simply amusing, all while acknolidging Peter Jackson's achievement in creating such great films. As I said, I'm fairly certain a decent Lotr game could! be made, much as Tom zuchowski did with Thror's ring (I know I've mentioned this Eamon game a lot but I really enjoyed it), just so long as the history and such are treated fairly. The really major issue is that Lotr isn't a fantasy as we would think of fantasy today. it the case that tolkien wrote a book, then expanded the background. Rather, he spent his entire life working out a full and complete history, language and set of myths, and in that history wrote what were essentially a number of Historical novels. Therefore, just as say a second world war novel needs to get the history of the war accurate, since the events of the war exist outside those of the novel, the same is true of tolkien. suppose for instance you were to make a side scroller called the invasion of berlin, in which you played a soldier of the allied forces tasked with invading the German capital, finally infiltrating Hitlers' heavily armoured castle and killing hitler. this is a perfectly acceptable plot for a random war game or a fantasy spy game, but of course we know Berlin was never invaded and that no such lone mission to assassinate hitler happened. If we are to create an actual game based on the second world war, it needs to be true to the events of that time. ditto with lotr. that being said, as David Greenwood's battle of britain map shows, it is! actually possible to create a game that does justice to the second world war's historical background, and I feel the same about lotr. Equally, I will say that while I am a purist about lotr history, I am not inflexible. I knew for instance the film would have to miss out bits of the book, heck, my favourite adaptation of lotr, the 1986 bbc radio play does, simply because it is a huge book with a lot of contrast, and in the same way a game would have to bend a little. it's just however a matter of being respectful to the source history rather than trampling all over it. This is why my favourite of the lotr films is still the first, since that was the one in which Jackson deviated the least from the book, and even though he did! eature digressions none caused as much historical shenanigans as in his last two films. interestingly enough, I think the same about the first hobbit film, though I am rather concerned where the next two will go, though that is of course not a topic it'd be good to discuss on list. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi Tom. As regards cannon this is unfortunately true. Much as I enjoy the super starwars trilogy of games on the Snes, it is unfortunately truet hat a lot of liberties were taken. for example, the first level sees you playing as Luke sky walker wandering through the dune sea of tatueen blowing up beasties with a lazer, and finishing by fighting a worm boss who comes out from under the sand. You then meet C3po who tells you r2 has been captured by the jawas, and you need to rescue him from the sand crawler. This makes for two rather fun levels, running around the sand crawler blowing up jawas, (including some very nasty lava beasts, and don't ask me why! lava is in the sand crawler), then you rescue r2 and have a couple more levels of mountainus terrain fighting off banters until you get to obywan. the games pretty much progress like that, inserting extra action levels in the film's plot where there were none, and while some of these are cool, such as ascending a large mechanical tower in the death star as Luke to reach vader and palpatine, where the designers got the idea from i don't know. Then againn, entering the unlock cheat to take on vader and palpatine as wicket the E wock with his cross bow (which is actually really powerful), is just plane fun, particularly because wickit is so small the emperor's lightning always misses :D. Getting back to cannon, startrek being an episodic voyage is indeed usefull for sticking in other adventures with the main cast which is obviously an advantage of a tv series format such as startrek that doesn't occur with such a well put together story as lotr, since after all tolkien himself didn't considder that he was writing fantasy in the way we would think of fantasy, he saw himself as writing history, just history that happened not to be true, which is why lotr in particular is very hard to mess with without getting people like myself up in arms, (some of the changes in the lotr films, much as I did enjoy them made me want to give old jackson a right good punch up the hootter). Of course, I admit that for Lotr am a purist, and for most people changes wouldn't matter half as much as they do to me, still I'd personally much prefer a game set! in the world of middle earth than one which directly retold the story of the main characters. After all with close to 18 thousand years of history there is lots of room to set advetures and conquests. heck, since the details he gives in the Silmarillion are fairly sparce, a game set around one of those legends would be quite expandable too. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi Dark, Well, not everyone is a purest, and that is another issue to consider when writing games. Some customers are not going to care about cannon or be a die-hard purest just as long as they can play their favorite character. Others such as yourself get upset if a game developer or a producer like Peter Jackson tinkers with the story too much. I myself am not really a LOTR purest, am a casual fan, so I really don't get too worked up over the changes in the Peter Jackson films. Certainly not enough to give him a punch up the hooter as you say. The issue is that die-hard fans tend to be purest's and casual fans aren't. Regardless if it is Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, Star Wars, or Harry Potter there are always going to be a certain amount of customers who will want the game developer to remain true to the cannon and known history and those who say bugger the cannon and history and do your own thing. The community can't have it both ways and a developer has to use his or her personal judgment which way to go. For example, a few weeks ago you and I were talking about my wrestling game. I was more or less writing this game from the perspective of a WWE fan for WWE fans who like Randy Orton, Big Show, Dolph Ziggler, John Cena, and all the rest of the WWE roster. You and a couple of others suggested being able to make up your own wrestler and career mode independent of the existing superstars. You see it more as a game where I see it as a chance to recreate favorite matches, feuds, and invent some on my own. Case in point. One of my favorite divas is Trish Stratus. She retired from professional wrestling in 2006, is married, and at this years hall of fame induction ceremony announced to the world she is expecting her first child. As a fan of hers I hate to see her go into retirement and hang up her wrestling gear for the life as a wife and mother, but she did. An all star game allows me to continue her career beyond 2006 and pit her in feuds with Maryse, Michelle McCool, Layla, and various other divas who have come and gone since Trish Stratus retired. That's coming from the point of view of a fan and wrestling purest, and not a casual fan who only sees it as just a game. Same idea applies to Lord of the Rings. You are a really big fan of the Tolkien books and probably know the history a lot better than I do. I've only read the books two or three times in my life, am familiar with them, but not enough to get bent out of shape if Peter Jackson or someone takes a few liberties over the cannon. I am at best just a casual fan of the books, and I will freely admit fantasy has never been my forte anyway. I've always considered myself a science fiction oriented person and spent most of my time watching shows or reading books like Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, Star Gate, etc as that is where my interests lie. Reading books set in mediaeval type settings with wizards, dwarves, trolls, goblins, etc is for me very casual at best anyway. So there is obviously a difference in perspective between a casual fan like myself and a serious Tolkien fan. That is why if I created a Mines of Moria game and used say Gandalf to fight his way through 10 levels of orcs, goblins, and trolls I'd just see it as a game loosely based on LOTR. A purest would scream that didn't happen in the books, and we need to use a different character and different story for the Mines of Moria. Make sense? Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi tom. I do take your point, and it is certainly true in terms of Doctor who and starwars I've seen a lot of things slide and it is also true I can enjoy a game as a game just as well as the next person. one intrinsic problem in lotr however, is that you are dealing with something far more serious when messing around with the history and plot than you are with most other series. tolkien spent literally his entire life working on the languages, history, cosmology and myths of middle earth, so completely that there is year and date info for every event in the books, (and many that are not), and much of the events fall very much into this pattern. to take one example, there is a scene in the two towers film in which Frodo and sam are dragged to osgiliath by Faramir where they witness a battle with the nazgul. Even if we overlook the fact that Faramir's character from a purely literary perspective got a complete reversal in the film, during this battle Frodo drops the ring and it's revealed to a Nazgul who then flies off. The chief purpose of Frodo's errand in the book and the reason it succeeded is that Sauron would assume that if anyone found the ring, they would naturally wish (as he would in their place), to use it against him, and not to destroy it. Thus, all of Sauron's efforts were based on crushing Gondor and the west before anyone could find the ring and with it's power challenge him, which was precisely why two hobbits crawling into Mordor to the very heart of his own land, seaking not to wield the ring but to destroy it is something he missed. yet, in the film we see one of Sauron's chief servants, (which he has mental communication with), see the one thing he needs to conquer the entire world, very lightly defended, in the hands of a hobbit on the outskirts of his land, indeed he already had a huge army massing at Minas morgul which was perhaps 20 miles from osgilliath. yet, we see Sauron in the film literally not acknolidging this fact, and carrying on with his attacks regardless. this scene in the film Peter jackson obviously put in for visual appeal, and to have a face off betwene frodo and the Nazgul, however he in no way considdered the more serious historysurrounding it. There are some great articals on this (which are very fair), on the encyclopedia of Arda website.http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ This is why Tolkien fan's in particular have such a thing about Cannon, since your not just talking about changes in a universe created for tv, but changes in a full and complete historical reccord. As another example, and one related to games, you mentioned including gandalf in a game. The problem is however, Gandalf is actually a being of the same order and magnitude as Sauron himself, a Maia. While he chooses not to exercise his power much of the time, it is really only beings of the same order as himself that could present a problem, one reason why he tells even Arragorn, probably one of the finest warriors in middle earth (not to mention Boromir, Gimly and legolas), this is a foe beyond any of you when he confronts the Balrog. suppose however you made a game in which Gandalf was the same rank as other characters, had a standard energy meater and could be ko'd by an orc just as easily as a mortal. Without knowing Gandalf's background (only hinted at in Lotr, though fully explained in the Silmarillion), you might assume he is a fairly standard old wizard of the DD glass cannon variety, which he is not by any stretch of the imagination. As I said, I can accept a game as a game in many fields. I enjoy super starwars and it's sequals for what it is, but in lotr Cannon is a little more serious because! of this historical matter. I'm not saying that I wouldn't enjoy say a side scroller where you could play as gandalf or the rest of the characters, just that for me, it would badly lose something, as much as for you a wee wrestling game would be more interesting than a generic one. however, just as the wee wrestling situation is soluable by as I suggested, including info about the wrestlers to make it comprehensive to those who do not know such things, I do think a cannon lotr game is soluable too, provided you pick your subject and characters carefully. for example, Arragorn legolas and gimly, along with the host of the dead rohirim make their way to the battle of pelenor fields. We don't learn much about this journey, only that they went through some caves haunted by ghosts, with Gimly experiencing some quite distinct fear, and that when they arived out they needed to ride to the mouths of Anduin and attack Sauron's allies from Unbar along with the host of the dead. well again, this is a point when a side scroller could be set, first getting through the caves, perhaps confronting ghosts and undead, then heading to the river fighting orcs and other soldiers, and in Aragorn, legolas and gimly you have three
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi Charles, I suppose if done correctly, but I haven't known of a game developer who has done the series justice yet. As has been mentioned on list all or most of the mainstream Lord of the Rings live action games have turned out to be junk for one reason or another. You either get the combat centered games that simply go from one battle to another which makes sense from an action game perspective but you lose the story element that way. Other games try to fit too much into the game and fail from trying to do too much in one game. I think if I were going to do a Lord of the Rings action game I would try and break it down into a series of games that only have one setting and one objective which would be easier to code. For example, I might create a side-scroller called, Lord of the Rings: Escape From Moria, which would essentially take place at the end of Fellowship of the Ring. You could pick one of the main characters and your goal would be to escape from the Mines of Moria. Along the way you might fight goblins and orcs, pick up torches to light your way, and perhaps find discarded armor and weapons. That to me seems like the only way to do a Lord of the Rings game and make it simple enough for a single developer like myself to program it. Of course, there are other Lord of the Rings games to consider. For example, I have a collectible set of Lord of the Rings Monopoly , and have created a board for Jim's Monopoly. However, there is a lot more to the actual board game than the board itself such as special rules for the ring, a special die for the Eye of Sauron, all of the chance cards, etc that could be made into an electronic version. I think if you and other people are interested I could create an accessible version of my LOTR Monopoly and make it true to the board game complete with chance cards, tokens, and special game rules. Cheers! On 4/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Not sure. A side scroller, maybe even a 3 D one, would be interesting, especially when you get to Mordor. Maybe something along the lines of Ark of Hope. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
I think that would be excelent, I would be interested in that Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:32 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format Hi Charles, I suppose if done correctly, but I haven't known of a game developer who has done the series justice yet. As has been mentioned on list all or most of the mainstream Lord of the Rings live action games have turned out to be junk for one reason or another. You either get the combat centered games that simply go from one battle to another which makes sense from an action game perspective but you lose the story element that way. Other games try to fit too much into the game and fail from trying to do too much in one game. I think if I were going to do a Lord of the Rings action game I would try and break it down into a series of games that only have one setting and one objective which would be easier to code. For example, I might create a side-scroller called, Lord of the Rings: Escape From Moria, which would essentially take place at the end of Fellowship of the Ring. You could pick one of the main characters and your goal would be to escape from the Mines of Moria. Along the way you might fight goblins and orcs, pick up torches to light your way, and perhaps find discarded armor and weapons. That to me seems like the only way to do a Lord of the Rings game and make it simple enough for a single developer like myself to program it. Of course, there are other Lord of the Rings games to consider. For example, I have a collectible set of Lord of the Rings Monopoly , and have created a board for Jim's Monopoly. However, there is a lot more to the actual board game than the board itself such as special rules for the ring, a special die for the Eye of Sauron, all of the chance cards, etc that could be made into an electronic version. I think if you and other people are interested I could create an accessible version of my LOTR Monopoly and make it true to the board game complete with chance cards, tokens, and special game rules. Cheers! On 4/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Not sure. A side scroller, maybe even a 3 D one, would be interesting, especially when you get to Mordor. Maybe something along the lines of Ark of Hope. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Yeah really. The Super Nintendo Lord of the Rings game was really nothing more tan a long series of fetch quests. First you had to go fetch Pippin from a wolf-infested plain after he tried to go fishing. Thhen you had to go find Sam's gaffer's glasses in order for Sam to oin you. And that was pretty much te whole game. You even had to find a series of six amulets in order to enter Rivendell, then a buch of gems to open the entrance to Moria. Needless to say, not very accurate. I do own the game but onl for its generally excellent soundtrack. But thou must! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 11:32 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format Hi Charles, I suppose if done correctly, but I haven't known of a game developer who has done the series justice yet. As has been mentioned on list all or most of the mainstream Lord of the Rings live action games have turned out to be junk for one reason or another. You either get the combat centered games that simply go from one battle to another which makes sense from an action game perspective but you lose the story element that way. Other games try to fit too much into the game and fail from trying to do too much in one game. I think if I were going to do a Lord of the Rings action game I would try and break it down into a series of games that only have one setting and one objective which would be easier to code. For example, I might create a side-scroller called, Lord of the Rings: Escape From Moria, which would essentially take place at the end of Fellowship of the Ring. You could pick one of the main characters and your goal would be to escape from the Mines of Moria. Along the way you might fight goblins and orcs, pick up torches to light your way, and perhaps find discarded armor and weapons. That to me seems like the only way to do a Lord of the Rings game and make it simple enough for a single developer like myself to program it. Of course, there are other Lord of the Rings games to consider. For example, I have a collectible set of Lord of the Rings Monopoly , and have created a board for Jim's Monopoly. However, there is a lot more to the actual board game than the board itself such as special rules for the ring, a special die for the Eye of Sauron, all of the chance cards, etc that could be made into an electronic version. I think if you and other people are interested I could create an accessible version of my LOTR Monopoly and make it true to the board game complete with chance cards, tokens, and special game rules. Cheers! On 4/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Not sure. A side scroller, maybe even a 3 D one, would be interesting, especially when you get to Mordor. Maybe something along the lines of Ark of Hope. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
I would be interested in a side scroler lotr mines of moriea game. since that is my fave seen in the movie the seen with gandalf fighting the balrog. from Mich. - Original Message - From: amanda burt aburt...@btinternet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format I think that would be excelent, I would be interested in that Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:32 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format Hi Charles, I suppose if done correctly, but I haven't known of a game developer who has done the series justice yet. As has been mentioned on list all or most of the mainstream Lord of the Rings live action games have turned out to be junk for one reason or another. You either get the combat centered games that simply go from one battle to another which makes sense from an action game perspective but you lose the story element that way. Other games try to fit too much into the game and fail from trying to do too much in one game. I think if I were going to do a Lord of the Rings action game I would try and break it down into a series of games that only have one setting and one objective which would be easier to code. For example, I might create a side-scroller called, Lord of the Rings: Escape From Moria, which would essentially take place at the end of Fellowship of the Ring. You could pick one of the main characters and your goal would be to escape from the Mines of Moria. Along the way you might fight goblins and orcs, pick up torches to light your way, and perhaps find discarded armor and weapons. That to me seems like the only way to do a Lord of the Rings game and make it simple enough for a single developer like myself to program it. Of course, there are other Lord of the Rings games to consider. For example, I have a collectible set of Lord of the Rings Monopoly , and have created a board for Jim's Monopoly. However, there is a lot more to the actual board game than the board itself such as special rules for the ring, a special die for the Eye of Sauron, all of the chance cards, etc that could be made into an electronic version. I think if you and other people are interested I could create an accessible version of my LOTR Monopoly and make it true to the board game complete with chance cards, tokens, and special game rules. Cheers! On 4/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Not sure. A side scroller, maybe even a 3 D one, would be interesting, especially when you get to Mordor. Maybe something along the lines of Ark of Hope. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Complete with Tolkeens? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format Hi Charles, I suppose if done correctly, but I haven't known of a game developer who has done the series justice yet. As has been mentioned on list all or most of the mainstream Lord of the Rings live action games have turned out to be junk for one reason or another. You either get the combat centered games that simply go from one battle to another which makes sense from an action game perspective but you lose the story element that way. Other games try to fit too much into the game and fail from trying to do too much in one game. I think if I were going to do a Lord of the Rings action game I would try and break it down into a series of games that only have one setting and one objective which would be easier to code. For example, I might create a side-scroller called, Lord of the Rings: Escape From Moria, which would essentially take place at the end of Fellowship of the Ring. You could pick one of the main characters and your goal would be to escape from the Mines of Moria. Along the way you might fight goblins and orcs, pick up torches to light your way, and perhaps find discarded armor and weapons. That to me seems like the only way to do a Lord of the Rings game and make it simple enough for a single developer like myself to program it. Of course, there are other Lord of the Rings games to consider. For example, I have a collectible set of Lord of the Rings Monopoly , and have created a board for Jim's Monopoly. However, there is a lot more to the actual board game than the board itself such as special rules for the ring, a special die for the Eye of Sauron, all of the chance cards, etc that could be made into an electronic version. I think if you and other people are interested I could create an accessible version of my LOTR Monopoly and make it true to the board game complete with chance cards, tokens, and special game rules. Cheers! On 4/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Not sure. A side scroller, maybe even a 3 D one, would be interesting, especially when you get to Mordor. Maybe something along the lines of Ark of Hope. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi Charles, Complete with what? I'm afraid I didn't quite get what you were asking. If you mean complete with game tokens the answer would be yes. My LOTR Monopoly set has a number of pieces of Gandolf, Aragorn, and all the rest of the main characters so if I converted the game into an electronic computer game you could pick any of the main tokens and play using them. The chance cards and so forth would be adjusted to match the actual LOTR game as well. Unlike Jim's Monopoly which is a generic game engine mine would be specifically written to be in keeping with the LOTR Monopoly set which is slightly different from regular Monopoly. To give you an example with regular Monopoly you buy houses and hotels. In LOTR Monopoly you build towers and fortresses. Instead of a chance card saying assessed for road work pay $50 for each house you own and $150 for each hotel a chance card might read attacked by orcs. Pay 50 gold to repair each tower you own and 150 gold for each fortress. Same idea, but definitely more specific to LOTR. Interesting enough there is an extra token in LOTR Monopoly not found in the standard Monopoly game. This is the ring itself. If put into play every time the Eye of Sauron comes up the ring moves one space towards Mount Doom. If the ring lands on Mount Doom the game effectively ends and the person with the most amount wins the game regardless if he or she has achieved monopoly. It is special rules like this that Jim's Monopoly doesn't currently support, and i could support it if I wrote a LOTR Monopoly game for the PC. Cheers! On 4/20/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Complete with Tolkeens? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi Bryan, That's why I pointed out a game would do better to pick one aspect of the books/movies such as the Mines of Moria or something else rather than attempting to squeeze everything from Fellowship of the Ring to Return of the King into one game. It can't sanely be done, and even if a person tries they end up just sticking to battles rather than side quests and such. Cheers! On 4/20/13, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: Yeah really. The Super Nintendo Lord of the Rings game was really nothing more tan a long series of fetch quests. First you had to go fetch Pippin from a wolf-infested plain after he tried to go fishing. Thhen you had to go find Sam's gaffer's glasses in order for Sam to oin you. And that was pretty much te whole game. You even had to find a series of six amulets in order to enter Rivendell, then a buch of gems to open the entrance to Moria. Needless to say, not very accurate. I do own the game but onl for its generally excellent soundtrack. But thou must! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Actually from what I recall the game War in Middle-Earth worked out qite well. My brother used to have it. Sure there were deviations but they obviously tried to stay faithful to the books. Then again I suppose that was more of a strategy game. But thou must! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 12:29 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format Hi Bryan, That's why I pointed out a game would do better to pick one aspect of the books/movies such as the Mines of Moria or something else rather than attempting to squeeze everything from Fellowship of the Ring to Return of the King into one game. It can't sanely be done, and even if a person tries they end up just sticking to battles rather than side quests and such. Cheers! On 4/20/13, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: Yeah really. The Super Nintendo Lord of the Rings game was really nothing more tan a long series of fetch quests. First you had to go fetch Pippin from a wolf-infested plain after he tried to go fishing. Thhen you had to go find Sam's gaffer's glasses in order for Sam to oin you. And that was pretty much te whole game. You even had to find a series of six amulets in order to enter Rivendell, then a buch of gems to open the entrance to Moria. Needless to say, not very accurate. I do own the game but onl for its generally excellent soundtrack. But thou must! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
I spelled the author's name wrong. It was word play on tokens. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format Hi Charles, Complete with what? I'm afraid I didn't quite get what you were asking. If you mean complete with game tokens the answer would be yes. My LOTR Monopoly set has a number of pieces of Gandolf, Aragorn, and all the rest of the main characters so if I converted the game into an electronic computer game you could pick any of the main tokens and play using them. The chance cards and so forth would be adjusted to match the actual LOTR game as well. Unlike Jim's Monopoly which is a generic game engine mine would be specifically written to be in keeping with the LOTR Monopoly set which is slightly different from regular Monopoly. To give you an example with regular Monopoly you buy houses and hotels. In LOTR Monopoly you build towers and fortresses. Instead of a chance card saying assessed for road work pay $50 for each house you own and $150 for each hotel a chance card might read attacked by orcs. Pay 50 gold to repair each tower you own and 150 gold for each fortress. Same idea, but definitely more specific to LOTR. Interesting enough there is an extra token in LOTR Monopoly not found in the standard Monopoly game. This is the ring itself. If put into play every time the Eye of Sauron comes up the ring moves one space towards Mount Doom. If the ring lands on Mount Doom the game effectively ends and the person with the most amount wins the game regardless if he or she has achieved monopoly. It is special rules like this that Jim's Monopoly doesn't currently support, and i could support it if I wrote a LOTR Monopoly game for the PC. Cheers! On 4/20/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Complete with Tolkeens? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi tom. while I wouldn't say no to an escape from moria type of game, one of the intrinsic problems about such a game is that like peter jaxon, you'd really have to tinker with the population of moria and locations within it. For example, the journey is relatively unevently until the fellowship reach the chamber of mozabul, where they are attacked by a host of orcs and a cave troll. After this they go down many flgihts of stairs, get to the hall of fire, meet the balrog and cross the bridge and are then pretty much out. this means if for instance you wanted a level of the characters fighting goblins while jumping across a river, or traversing a deep treasury full of precious items, much less encountering dragons and other enemies besides orcs, trolls and the balrog you'd have to alter things quite a bit. This is one reason I so admire the eamon game Thror's ring, because it manages to stay true! to the descriptions of moria in lotr, but also departs from the beaten path into the depths of moria and shows you some quite unique things. Myself, if I wanted to create a side scroller based on Tolkien, I'd probably do it in some section of middle earth where I have full control. for example, if I wanted to set a game in Moria, rather than doing it with the fellowship, who's route is fairly strictly laid out by tolkien, I'd do it with Balin's doomed expedition. In the game you could play as either Balin, who would have the best ranged attacks, ori, who would be the strongest close range opponent, and Oin who would be an alrounder but would have the advantage of carrying his own light source (tolkien states in the hobbit Oin could make a light out of everything). during the game, you'd first have to fight your way through Dimril dale and fight off orcs around the great gate, thus having levels set on the surface and partially in caves. You could then explore moria, finding it's deep treasuries, (tolkien does hint that the expendition found durin's axe), finding underground rivers, complex mazes and anything else a game designer would want being that we know the dwarves explored moria very thughrlyy. In the end however you would find yourself in the chamber of reccords, fighting a great battle. that is just one example, there are lots of others in Tolkien's world. For instance we never learnt about gandalf's first! trip to moria that he mentions in Lotr, or yet Arragorns, both of which could be interesting stories in themselves. Getting out of moria, a game set among the campeignes of Gondor's forces along the banks of the anduin would be awsome I've always thought. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Hi Dark, True. However, I was merely throwing the Mines of Moria idea out there as a case example of how the three books could be trimmed down to something manageable by a single developer rather than an actual idea for a LOTR game. For a real LOTR game I would probably do something along the lines you mentioned like using some event not specifically covered in the books such as Balin's doomed expedition where I am more free to play with the storyline and characters. Any of the main characters from the fellowship itself is already written history, and anything I could do to create a game would require tampering with the cannon, and I don't think any true fan of LOTR really wants me to do that. In fact, I would say I think all of the commercial LOTR games out there are failures precisely for that very reason. The game designers wanted to use all the characters from the fellowship and ended up creating side quests and adventures beyond the scope of the original three books which isn't as good as if they picked an event like Balin's doomed expedition or when Gandalf left Bilbo and the dwarves to travel Mirkwood on their own while he and the other wizards went to fight Sauron. There are a number of potential quests in the LOTR books and Hobbit that could be taken up by a game designer, but have not simply because the commercial companies decided to base the game on the main characters and did a bad job of it. When it comes down to it this is a pretty general problem with basing a game on any book or movie. There is a certain amount of cannon around the main characters where there isn't any room to write new quests or adventures for those characters without seriously altering the history of that character or story. In something like LOTR the history of the fellowship is known and a game developer has to follow the history laid down by the original author. With something like Star Trek its a lot more flexible because its assumed Picard, Riker, Troi, Data, Warf, etc have adventures that are not covered by the weekly TV show, and there you can write a game about those adventures. LOTR is pretty much a closed history where Star Trek is an open ended story. Big difference in terms of writing a game. However, the best solution is to take the established universe be it Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and create your own characters and quests for that game world. In fact, Lucas Arts rarely ever uses Han, Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan, etc in their Star Wars games for this reason. Instead they have created their own characters like Kyle Katern who was in Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, and Jedi Outcast as the main character. They used Mara Jade in Mysteries of the Sith who was pretty much an unknown character at that time. More recent games have Master Shan and some of the other Jedi Masters from thousands of years before Luke Skywalker was even born. All of this is to point out the games are based on Star Wars but the games don't have to worry about cannon or if the books conflict with this or that because the games exist in their own cannon and history. So if I were to write a game set in the Harry Potter universe I would be better off creating a custom student at Hogwarts who just happens to run into NPC characters like Ron, Harry, Jinnee, Hermione, etc during his or her own adventures. This would allow me to write stories not covered by J. K. Rowling while preserving the cannon. I think from a purity perspective is the best solution. Unfortunately, a lot of gamers probably want to play the main characters which is why even though it breaks with cannon you get a LOTR game with the main characters in it doing things like finding Sam's gaffer's glasses in order to get him to join the Fellowship of the Ring which is just dumb. Game developers aren't given much wiggle room when it comes to cannon and main characters so stick side quests into their games as filler between major battle scenes whatever, and are something of a detraction from the over all game. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] lord of the rings game thought - Re: Children's Games was Audyssey Format
Not sure. A side scroller, maybe even a 3 D one, would be interesting, especially when you get to Mordor. Maybe something along the lines of Ark of Hope. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Children's Games was Audyssey Format Hi Charles, Interesting idea, but if not a roll playing game what kind of game would your ideal Lord of the Rings game be. Would it be a side-scroller, FPS, what? Cheers! On 4/18/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I would also like to see accessible Lord of the Rings games that are not role playing games. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
