Re: where to send questions about "Other Classes"

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 14 May 2002 11:13, Jeff Barrett wrote:
> What's the appropriate list for questions about stuff in the
> org.apache.xml.serialize package?

Looks like something from  xml.apache.org so I would check over there. 
Probably something from xalan so maybe try xalan-user ?? 

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where to send questions about "Other Classes"

[Jeff Barrett]

What's the appropriate list for questions about stuff in the
org.apache.xml.serialize package?

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[EGO] Re: Project Activity

[dion]

FWIW, there is no 'ranking' in the cvs activity report, unless you 
consider alphabetical order ranking. But I'm not going to complain about 
people who would otherwise do nothing doing some of the 'cosmetic' stuff 
like documentation/javadoc etc.

And everyone seems to have ignored the file activity report - which helps 
to find code that is unstable.
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/14/02 01:33 AM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: Project Activity


On Mon, 13 May 2002, Peter Donald wrote:

> On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
> > Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit 
the
> > essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
> > non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.
> 
> Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you 
get 
> committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push 
their 
> activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much 
the 
> same reason.

Breaking one big commit into many commits is not bad.
It makes things easier to review, the commit comment can describe much
better what has been done in the file.

Putting a 'ranking' on commiter's activity is however very bad.
Some are working full time ( as part of their job ), some are using
the little free time they find ( or sleep less ). I think the 
second category deserves a lot of apreciation, even if they may have 
fewer commits. 

Costin

> I have found that higher healthy activity is actually indicated by small 

> localized changes. This is not going to be captured in a simple count 
the 
> commits and note the committer style approach.
> 
> 


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Re: Project Activity

[dion]

"Many commits without description and many cosmetic changes."
Hey now, my commits are coming through with no message because of a bug in 
NetBeans. It's got nothing to do with the stats.

Some of those 'cosmetic' changes like checkstyle issues are LONG overdue.
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
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"Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/13/02 10:00 PM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: Project Activity


From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
> > Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit
the
> > essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
> > non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.
>
> Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you 
get
> committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push
their
> activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much 
the
> same reason.

This is exactly what has happened to turbine-maven just after the 
statistics
were made.
Many commits without description and many cosmetic changes.

Measuring how well a project is doing with these stats is nonsense.
There is no semantics in numbers.

Say you are having tons of letters from angry users that claim that your
product sucks.
Is the number of posts still a health indicator?
Maybe of the mailing list software ;-)

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[dion]

Jeff,

AFAIK announce@ is for Jakarta announcements, not external projects.
--
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




Jeff Turner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: Jeff Turner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/13/02 10:13 PM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:Re: Advertisement using Apache lists


On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:54:48AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
> At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that 
> >support
> >Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.
> 
> I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and 

> other OSS software.
> 
> I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to setup a 
top 
> level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise oneself, one's 
> company, or to advertise that you need support.

I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
everyone still cc's announcements to general@.

Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.

--Jeff

> I'm not a committer on any projects so can anyone else try to get this 
> going? It shouldn't be too hard.
> 
> Alex
> 

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RE: Project Activity

[dion]

And sometimes it's on IRC channels. Talk is cheap...c'mon, lets see you 
guys implement some of your suggestions.

If you think it's mailing lists, plug it into EyeBrowse and the shared 
mboxes here.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




"Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/13/02 08:17 PM
Please respond to "Jakarta General List"

 
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:RE: Project Activity



Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit the
essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.

d.

> This makes me think of all the projects on SourceForge that shoot up
> high into the project ratings, with a high activity percentile, just
> because they turn the news function into a message board.


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Re: Project Activity

[costinm]

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Peter Donald wrote:

> On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
> > Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit the
> > essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
> > non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.
> 
> Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you get 
> committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push their 
> activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much the 
> same reason.

Breaking one big commit into many commits is not bad.
It makes things easier to review, the commit comment can describe much
better what has been done in the file.

Putting a 'ranking' on commiter's activity is however very bad.
Some are working full time ( as part of their job ), some are using
the little free time they find ( or sleep less ). I think the 
second category deserves a lot of apreciation, even if they may have 
fewer commits. 

Costin

> I have found that higher healthy activity is actually indicated by small 
> localized changes. This is not going to be captured in a simple count the 
> commits and note the committer style approach.
> 
> 


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[METOO] Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[costinm]

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Peter Donald wrote:

> On Mon, 13 May 2002 22:13, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
> > everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
> >
> > Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
> > adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
> 
> Perhaps we could also prefix their messages with [TROLL], [SPAM], [WHINING] or 
> [EGO] where appropriate ? :)

+1 :-)

Costin 


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I completely agree with that sentiment.  I think it ROCKS if you're able
> to practice Apache where you work and get paid for it.  I hope the list
> Ken started takes off in a different manner than the "subscribe to be
> advertised to" that I think it might.

This is exactly why I started it.

It's a test, to see if something more that "Get X product, it rocks" can be
achieved.

I honestly hope it will; if not, we will have the demonstration that such a
thing is impractical, and no more need to "suppose" it could be a good idea.

It's there now. You want to make it work?

Join.

krysalis-jakarta-adv mailing list @ www.krysalis.org

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I completely agree with that sentiment.  I think it ROCKS if you're able 
to practice Apache where you work and get paid for it.  I hope the list 
Ken started takes off in a different manner than the "subscribe to be 
advertised to" that I think it might.  I'd like to see more like a 
world-wide networking list take place...fat chance but its a nice thought.  

Henri Yandell wrote:

>+1 from me.
>
>While it's nice to see committers who are able to commercially work with
>the experience they gain/use here, it would be very demeaning to the list
>for every company who are using jsp/servlets/other to post their
>consultant services to the general list.
>
>Hen
>
>On 13 May 2002, Leo Simons wrote:
>
>  
>
>>+1 to all of that.
>>
>>- Leo
>>
>>
>>
>>>Sun Micro, has a page of "here are Java companies"  -- lets "innovate"
>>>it and put up a similar Jakarta page -- Here are companies and folks who
>>>support Apache Jakarta software.  I volunteer. Secondly, lets Make a
>>>rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists, that is NOT what they
>>>are there for.
>>>
>>>This does a few things:
>>>
>>>1. Provides a good rationale to companies to use Apache Jakarta Software
>>>(not a specific goal of the group but a personal goal of several people
>>>here including myself as I like working with GOOD software)
>>>
>>>2. Gives those companies a place to post thats relevant to Jakarta,
>>>won't annoy people who might otherwise use them.
>>>
>>>3. Give those companies a high visability web page to advertise on.
>>>
>>>4. God I don't need more spam.  My spam filter entries will one day
>>>reach the limit on the number of strings I can match on.
>>>  
>>>
>>
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>>
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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I think you should make it clear what we're talking about here. 
 Engaging in commercial ventures on a list is something I might even be 
interested in.  Receiving the spam of the day from company X whose 
latest angle is Apache support, is not.

Jeff Turner wrote:

>On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 01:20:24PM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
>  
>
>>At 13:13 13/05/2002, Jeff Turner wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:54:48AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
>>>  
>>>
At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:


>I would like to encourage information about commercial entities
>that support Apache software, but I really have no clue about how
>it should be done.
>  
>
I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and
other OSS software.

I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to
setup a top level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise
oneself, one's company, or to advertise that you need support.


>>>I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list
>>>and everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
>>>
>>>Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV]
>>>for adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
>>>  
>>>
>>It isn't just about announcements - if it were then we would just use
>>the announcements mailing lists.  It is really about having a place
>>where we can discuss these issues which are welcome no where else.
>>
>>
>
>Ah right. "these issues" being, "commercial entities supporting Apache
>software", aka "How to make a buck off Jakarta". Cool :) I'd subscribe.
>The Open Source vs. Paid Work conflict sucks.
>
>Maybe start an egroups list, or even just collect a list of people to
>Cc. Mail weekly summaries to general@ to maintain interest. Then if it's
>still around in 1 month, ping infrastructure@ and beg :)
>
>
>--Jeff
>
>  
>
>>Alex
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Leo Simons]

On Mon, 2002-05-13 at 15:44, Alex McLintock wrote:
> At 14:06 13/05/2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >  Secondly, lets Make a rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists, 
> > that is NOT what they are there for.
> 
> 
> Don't get hung up on adverts. We need somewhere to discuss commercial 
> issues - and there is no apache forum where this is allowed.
> If there was a forum/ mailing list for such matters then you could all say 
> that that is where to post adverts to and *no where else*.

I can see you need somewhere to discuss commercial issues. I cannot see
why such a forum would have to be an apache forum. We can include a link
on the page Andrew is going to make to such a forum in an external
location.

I am all for commercial use and support of apache products, however I do
not think that facilities to enable this commercial use and support
should be provided by apache itself.

twisted analogy: few people that work on the linux kernel have a problem
with red hat; however, I think they'd not like it that much if
kernel.org were to host a forum for use by red hat and the like.

cheers,

- Leo


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Alex McLintock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> At 14:06 13/05/2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >  Secondly, lets Make a rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists,
> > that is NOT what they are there for.
>
> Don't get hung up on adverts. We need somewhere to discuss commercial
> issues - and there is no apache forum where this is allowed.
> If there was a forum/ mailing list for such matters then you could all say
> that that is where to post adverts to and *no where else*.

Ok, this is a mailing list that has been created for this purpose.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To subscribe click on the Mailing lists link on http://www.krysalis.org/ and
subscribe to the krysalis-jakarta-adv list.

-oOo-

Krysalis www.krysalis.org is the home of some projects that follow, and can
help to follow, Apache-style license and guidelines.

This list a place where we can talk-discuss about Commercial support to
Jakarta projects.

If this list will have a reasonable success, we can ask to have it hosted
directly at Jakarta, as is for all Krysalis projects.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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CVS Module MAVEN missing

[Alef Arendsen]

On the page http://jakarta.apache.org/site/cvsindex.html I was looking for the 
jakarta-turbine-maven module but couldn't find it. However, it does exist...

alef 

==
Alef Arendsen  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SmartHaven B.V.www.smarthaven.com
Arlandaweg 92  M: +31 6 19 338 921
1043 EX Amsterdam  T: +31 20 586 90 57
NetherlandsF: +31 84 882 26 39
==

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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Alex McLintock]

At 14:06 13/05/2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>  Secondly, lets Make a rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists, 
> that is NOT what they are there for.


Don't get hung up on adverts. We need somewhere to discuss commercial 
issues - and there is no apache forum where this is allowed.
If there was a forum/ mailing list for such matters then you could all say 
that that is where to post adverts to and *no where else*.

Alex




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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Henri Yandell]

+1 from me.

While it's nice to see committers who are able to commercially work with
the experience they gain/use here, it would be very demeaning to the list
for every company who are using jsp/servlets/other to post their
consultant services to the general list.

Hen

On 13 May 2002, Leo Simons wrote:

> +1 to all of that.
>
> - Leo
>
> > Sun Micro, has a page of "here are Java companies"  -- lets "innovate"
> > it and put up a similar Jakarta page -- Here are companies and folks who
> > support Apache Jakarta software.  I volunteer. Secondly, lets Make a
> > rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists, that is NOT what they
> > are there for.
> >
> > This does a few things:
> >
> > 1. Provides a good rationale to companies to use Apache Jakarta Software
> > (not a specific goal of the group but a personal goal of several people
> > here including myself as I like working with GOOD software)
> >
> > 2. Gives those companies a place to post thats relevant to Jakarta,
> > won't annoy people who might otherwise use them.
> >
> > 3. Give those companies a high visability web page to advertise on.
> >
> > 4. God I don't need more spam.  My spam filter entries will one day
> > reach the limit on the number of strings I can match on.
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Leo Simons]

+1 to all of that.

- Leo

> Sun Micro, has a page of "here are Java companies"  -- lets "innovate" 
> it and put up a similar Jakarta page -- Here are companies and folks who 
> support Apache Jakarta software.  I volunteer. Secondly, lets Make a 
> rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists, that is NOT what they 
> are there for.
> 
> This does a few things:
> 
> 1. Provides a good rationale to companies to use Apache Jakarta Software 
> (not a specific goal of the group but a personal goal of several people 
> here including myself as I like working with GOOD software)
> 
> 2. Gives those companies a place to post thats relevant to Jakarta, 
> won't annoy people who might otherwise use them.
> 
> 3. Give those companies a high visability web page to advertise on.
> 
> 4. God I don't need more spam.  My spam filter entries will one day 
> reach the limit on the number of strings I can match on.



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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 01:20:24PM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
> > It isn't just about announcements - if it were then we would just use
> > the announcements mailing lists.  It is really about having a place
> > where we can discuss these issues which are welcome no where else.
> 
> Ah right. "these issues" being, "commercial entities supporting Apache
> software", aka "How to make a buck off Jakarta". Cool :) I'd subscribe.
> The Open Source vs. Paid Work conflict sucks.
> 
> Maybe start an egroups list, or even just collect a list of people to
> Cc. Mail weekly summaries to general@ to maintain interest. Then if it's
> still around in 1 month, ping infrastructure@ and beg :)

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

The list has just been created and will be available shortly.

If it generates intrest, we will ask to put it here at Jakarta.

If not, heck, we tried ;-)

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Andrew C. Oliver]

God yes, I need more spam!  Especially targeted spam.  Can we make sure 
those [ADV] Mobutu in South Africa wants to send you 10,000,000 for safe 
keeping get through to the lists?  Well at least if Mobutu agrees to 
support Apache software as well as send me 10mil?

Sun Micro, has a page of "here are Java companies"  -- lets "innovate" 
it and put up a similar Jakarta page -- Here are companies and folks who 
support Apache Jakarta software.  I volunteer. Secondly, lets Make a 
rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists, that is NOT what they 
are there for.

This does a few things:

1. Provides a good rationale to companies to use Apache Jakarta Software 
(not a specific goal of the group but a personal goal of several people 
here including myself as I like working with GOOD software)

2. Gives those companies a place to post thats relevant to Jakarta, 
won't annoy people who might otherwise use them.

3. Give those companies a high visability web page to advertise on.

4. God I don't need more spam.  My spam filter entries will one day 
reach the limit on the number of strings I can match on.

-Andy

Jeff Turner wrote:

>On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:04:20PM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>..
>  
>
>>>Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
>>>adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
>>>  
>>>
>>I've noticed too that the annoumcement list stuff gets CCd to other lists.
>>
>>How about having all content sent to that list be automatically CCd to
>>general lists with [ANN]?
>>
>>
>
>To spell out this idea: any mail that gets sent to announcements@jakarta
>is forwarded to general@ with "[ANN]" prepended to it's subject
>(possibly stripping any existing [ANN] variants).
>
>Same with [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>That's kinda nice. In addition to munging the subject line, it could add
>an X-Jakarta-Announce: or X-Jakarta-Advert: header, which people could
>filter on.
>
>All assuming that people *want* Jakarta-related adverts and
>announcements on general@. I get the impression that some do, a few
>don't, and most don't care.
>
>
>--Jeff
>
>  
>
>>This way if one wants only announcements, he can subscribe to that list,
>>while other users get the ANN topics automatically.
>>
>>
>
>  
>
>>This could be done also with an [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, and [ADV] as
>>Jeff suggests.
>>Another result of this is having separate mail history for these lists.
>>
>>--
>>Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>- verba volant, scripta manent -
>>   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>>
>>
>>
>
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>




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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Jeff Turner]

On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 01:20:24PM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
> At 13:13 13/05/2002, Jeff Turner wrote:
> >On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:54:48AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
> >> At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >> >I would like to encourage information about commercial entities
> >> >that support Apache software, but I really have no clue about how
> >> >it should be done.
> >>
> >> I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and
> >> other OSS software.
> >>
> >> I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to
> >> setup a top level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise
> >> oneself, one's company, or to advertise that you need support.
> >
> >I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list
> >and everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
> >
> >Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV]
> >for adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
> 
> It isn't just about announcements - if it were then we would just use
> the announcements mailing lists.  It is really about having a place
> where we can discuss these issues which are welcome no where else.

Ah right. "these issues" being, "commercial entities supporting Apache
software", aka "How to make a buck off Jakarta". Cool :) I'd subscribe.
The Open Source vs. Paid Work conflict sucks.

Maybe start an egroups list, or even just collect a list of people to
Cc. Mail weekly summaries to general@ to maintain interest. Then if it's
still around in 1 month, ping infrastructure@ and beg :)


--Jeff

> Alex
> 

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[LOL] Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Peter Donald wrote:

>On Mon, 13 May 2002 22:13, Jeff Turner wrote:
>  
>
>>I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
>>everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
>>
>>Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
>>adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
>>
>>
>
>Perhaps we could also prefix their messages with [TROLL], [SPAM], [WHINING] or 
>[EGO] where appropriate ? :)
>
>  
>
LOL


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

>From: "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>  
>
>>On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:54:48AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
>>
>>
>>>At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>>>  
>>>
I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that
support
Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.


>>>I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and
>>>other OSS software.
>>>
>>>I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to setup a
>>>  
>>>
>top
>  
>
>>>level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise oneself, one's
>>>company, or to advertise that you need support.
>>>  
>>>
>>I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
>>everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
>>
>>Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
>>adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
>>
>>
>
>I've noticed too that the annoumcement list stuff gets CCd to other lists.
>
>How about having all content sent to that list be automatically CCd to
>general lists with [ANN]?
>  
>
-1 - I want announcements not ads.

>This way if one wants only announcements, he can subscribe to that list,
>while other users get the ANN topics automatically.
>This could be done also with an [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, and [ADV] as
>Jeff suggests.
>Another result of this is having separate mail history for these lists.
>
>--
>Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>- verba volant, scripta manent -
>   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>-
>
>
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>For additional commands, e-mail: 
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>




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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Peter Donald]

Hi,

Perhas a better idea would be to get some space on main website where people 
could advertise that they supply support for various Jakarta projects or 
whatever. That way people have a central location to go to get info on 
commercial support and all that. Theres a whole bunch of people that do 
support/contract/consulting on jakarta stuff and it could end up extremely 
noisy if done on list.

I would prefer that general remain about community/organisational/etc issues 
across the whole jakarta project. Keep noise signal to noise ratio as high as 
we can I say. 

On Mon, 13 May 2002 22:48, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > > Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV]
> > > for adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
> >
> > I've noticed too that the annoumcement list stuff gets CCd to other
> > lists.
> >
> > How about having all content sent to that list be automatically CCd to
> > general lists with [ANN]?
>
> To spell out this idea: any mail that gets sent to announcements@jakarta
> is forwarded to general@ with "[ANN]" prepended to it's subject
> (possibly stripping any existing [ANN] variants).
>
> Same with [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> That's kinda nice. In addition to munging the subject line, it could add
> an X-Jakarta-Announce: or X-Jakarta-Advert: header, which people could
> filter on.
>
> All assuming that people *want* Jakarta-related adverts and
> announcements on general@. I get the impression that some do, a few
> don't, and most don't care.
>
>
> --Jeff
>
> > This way if one wants only announcements, he can subscribe to that list,
> > while other users get the ANN topics automatically.
> >
> > This could be done also with an [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, and [ADV] as
> > Jeff suggests.
> > Another result of this is having separate mail history for these lists.
> >
> > --
> > Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > - verba volant, scripta manent -
> >(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald


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Re: Project Activity

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Agreed!

Danny Angus wrote:

>Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit the
>essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
>non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.
>
>d.
>
>  
>
>>This makes me think of all the projects on SourceForge that shoot up
>>high into the project ratings, with a high activity percentile, just
>>because they turn the news function into a message board.
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Jeff Turner]

On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:04:20PM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
..
> > Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
> > adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
> 
> I've noticed too that the annoumcement list stuff gets CCd to other lists.
> 
> How about having all content sent to that list be automatically CCd to
> general lists with [ANN]?

To spell out this idea: any mail that gets sent to announcements@jakarta
is forwarded to general@ with "[ANN]" prepended to it's subject
(possibly stripping any existing [ANN] variants).

Same with [EMAIL PROTECTED]

That's kinda nice. In addition to munging the subject line, it could add
an X-Jakarta-Announce: or X-Jakarta-Advert: header, which people could
filter on.

All assuming that people *want* Jakarta-related adverts and
announcements on general@. I get the impression that some do, a few
don't, and most don't care.


--Jeff

> This way if one wants only announcements, he can subscribe to that list,
> while other users get the ANN topics automatically.

> This could be done also with an [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, and [ADV] as
> Jeff suggests.
> Another result of this is having separate mail history for these lists.
> 
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
>(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> 

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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Not cross posted.  I suggest a webpage and then forbid posts to lists 
about it.  Taglines/etc are okay but explicit posts can get out of hand 
especially during economic downturns when everyone is looking for an 
angle.  I think it hasn't been a problem as some folks probably figured 
standard spam rule applied (At least I did).

-Andy

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

>In these days I've seen messages from [EMAIL PROTECTED] advertising
>commercial support for Apache software on this list
>(http://www.multitask.com.au/default.html?page=mtSOS) and on individual
>project lists
>http://sos.multitask.com.au/QuickPlace/sos/main.nsf/h_Toc/07633801fb8c6459ca
>256bb3001722b1/?OpenDocument .
>
>I think that this is a very nice thing, since IMHO commercial support is
>vital for Apache software.
>
>I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that support
>Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.
>
>Are there any special guidelines on this?
>
>Are there any suggestions on this topic?
>
>--
>Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>- verba volant, scripta manent -
>   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>-
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>
>  
>




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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Rob Oxspring]

Have never played with any mailing list software myself but would it be
possible to bounce cross posts? That way people would soon learn that cross
posts are not appreciated without having to interrupt the subscribers!

Just thinking out loud...

Rob

- Original Message -
From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Advertisement using Apache lists


On Mon, 13 May 2002 22:13, Jeff Turner wrote:
> I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
> everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
>
> Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
> adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.

Perhaps we could also prefix their messages with [TROLL], [SPAM], [WHINING]
or
[EGO] where appropriate ? :)

--
Cheers,

Peter Donald


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Peter Donald]

On Mon, 13 May 2002 22:13, Jeff Turner wrote:
> I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
> everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
>
> Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
> adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.

Perhaps we could also prefix their messages with [TROLL], [SPAM], [WHINING] or 
[EGO] where appropriate ? :)

-- 
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Peter Donald


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Alex McLintock]

At 13:13 13/05/2002, Jeff Turner wrote:
>On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:54:48AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
> > At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> > >I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that
> > >support
> > >Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.
> >
> > I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and
> > other OSS software.
> >
> > I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to setup a 
> top
> > level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise oneself, one's
> > company, or to advertise that you need support.
>
>I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
>everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
>
>Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
>adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.

It isn't just about announcements - if it were then we would just use the 
announcements mailing lists.
It is really about having a place where we can discuss these issues which 
are welcome no where else.

Alex




Openweb Analysts Ltd, London: Software For Complex Websites 
http://www.OWAL.co.uk/
Free Consultancy for London Companies thinking of Open Source Software.


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:54:48AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
> > At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> > >I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that
> > >support
> > >Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.
> >
> > I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and
> > other OSS software.
> >
> > I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to setup a
top
> > level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise oneself, one's
> > company, or to advertise that you need support.
>
> I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
> everyone still cc's announcements to general@.
>
> Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
> adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.

I've noticed too that the annoumcement list stuff gets CCd to other lists.

How about having all content sent to that list be automatically CCd to
general lists with [ANN]?

This way if one wants only announcements, he can subscribe to that list,
while other users get the ANN topics automatically.
This could be done also with an [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, and [ADV] as
Jeff suggests.
Another result of this is having separate mail history for these lists.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: Project Activity

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
> > Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit
the
> > essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
> > non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.
>
> Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you get
> committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push
their
> activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much the
> same reason.

This is exactly what has happened to turbine-maven just after the statistics
were made.
Many commits without description and many cosmetic changes.

Measuring how well a project is doing with these stats is nonsense.
There is no semantics in numbers.

Say you are having tons of letters from angry users that claim that your
product sucks.
Is the number of posts still a health indicator?
Maybe of the mailing list software ;-)

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Jeff Turner]

On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:54:48AM +0100, Alex McLintock wrote:
> At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that 
> >support
> >Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.
> 
> I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and 
> other OSS software.
> 
> I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to setup a top 
> level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise oneself, one's 
> company, or to advertise that you need support.

I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
everyone still cc's announcements to general@.

Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.

--Jeff

> I'm not a committer on any projects so can anyone else try to get this 
> going? It shouldn't be too hard.
> 
> Alex
> 

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RE: Project Activity

[Alef Arendsen]

I don't really think project activity can be calculated from code changes alone. I 
would say project activity should cover the complete process of setting up 
requirements for the software, designing, implementing, testing and using it.

If Jakarta would have a structured software development process this would be easy to 
do, but because of the all the diverse ways of coming to a release this is hard to do 
I guess. But maybe some milestones/checks can be put up which could be measured (e.g. 
in respect with time between the milestones, time between a bugreport and a bugfix). 
This way you might create a couple of vague notions like:

   *time-to-release (short/medium/long)
   *stableness (amount of bugs reported, hihg/medium/low)
   *userbase (large/medium/small)
   *amount of minor releases (bugfix release) per month or year. 

Those kind of stats might give a user way more information than the amount of commits 
or changes to a certain file. I wouldn't even want to know ;-).

Project activity measurements only create unnecessary competion IMHO. In Jakarta's 
case projects are rejected anyway if they don't have a certain activity.

Alef

-Original Message-
From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, 13 May 2002 12:31
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Project Activity


On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
> Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit the
> essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
> non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.

Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you get 
committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push their 
activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much the 
same reason.

I have found that higher healthy activity is actually indicated by small 
localized changes. This is not going to be captured in a simple count the 
commits and note the committer style approach.

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald


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Re: Project Activity

[Peter Donald]

On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
> Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit the
> essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
> non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.

Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you get 
committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push their 
activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much the 
same reason.

I have found that higher healthy activity is actually indicated by small 
localized changes. This is not going to be captured in a simple count the 
commits and note the committer style approach.

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald


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RE: Project Activity

[Danny Angus]

Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit the
essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.

d.

> This makes me think of all the projects on SourceForge that shoot up
> high into the project ratings, with a high activity percentile, just
> because they turn the news function into a message board.


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[Alex McLintock]

At 09:02 13/05/2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that support
>Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.

I too am setting up an organisation in the UK to help support Apache and 
other OSS software.

I suggest that the first (and simplest) thing to do would be to setup a top 
level apache mailing list where it is ok to advertise oneself, one's 
company, or to advertise that you need support.

I'm not a committer on any projects so can anyone else try to get this 
going? It shouldn't be too hard.

Alex



Openweb Analysts Ltd, London: Software For Complex Websites 
http://www.OWAL.co.uk/
Free Consultancy for London Companies thinking of Open Source Software.


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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

[dion]

|
| In these days I've seen messages from [EMAIL PROTECTED] advertising
| commercial support for Apache software on this list
| (http://www.multitask.com.au/default.html?page=mtSOS) and on individual
| project lists
|
http://sos.multitask.com.au/QuickPlace/sos/main.nsf/h_Toc/07633801fb8c6459ca

| 256bb3001722b1/?OpenDocument .
|
| I think that this is a very nice thing, since IMHO commercial support is
| vital for Apache software.
|
| I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that
support
| Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.
I've just been taking the tack that I'd place any announcements where there
most appropriate - e.g. tomcat stuff on the tomcat lists etc.

| Are there any special guidelines on this?
|
| Are there any suggestions on this topic?
I'd love to know more too...

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


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Advertisement using Apache lists

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

In these days I've seen messages from [EMAIL PROTECTED] advertising
commercial support for Apache software on this list
(http://www.multitask.com.au/default.html?page=mtSOS) and on individual
project lists
http://sos.multitask.com.au/QuickPlace/sos/main.nsf/h_Toc/07633801fb8c6459ca
256bb3001722b1/?OpenDocument .

I think that this is a very nice thing, since IMHO commercial support is
vital for Apache software.

I would like to encourage information about commercial entities that support
Apache software, but I really have no clue about how it should be done.

Are there any special guidelines on this?

Are there any suggestions on this topic?

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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