Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Yes!  In fact POI uses this to generate Record and Type classes from XML 
descriptors.  You can't
imagine how much typing this saves!

Danny Angus wrote:

Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?
   


Actually after a lot of scepticism I now like XSLT.
But like everything else it stinks if its the wrong tool for the job.
I've been using it to generate java source code from xml descriptions of
data, it does that quite well IMO.

d.


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RE: Jakarta PMC report

[Danny Angus]

> Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?

Actually after a lot of scepticism I now like XSLT.
But like everything else it stinks if its the wrong tool for the job.
I've been using it to generate java source code from xml descriptions of
data, it does that quite well IMO.

d.


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:



On Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 07:13 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:


Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?



I do.



I actually like the declarative model  I sometimes have trouble in 
that processing syntax is not orthogonal to the syntax of what you are 
generally trying to output (XML, usually).

Agreed!


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Costin Manolache]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

> 
> On Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 06:55 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
> 
>> In this post Jon expresses his acceptance for other technology and how
>> he values community and wishes to work closely together:
>> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102029828404481&w=2
>> > I can't stand XSL...
> 
> Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?

I do. It's a little harder to learn - but it's a decent and powerful 
standard.

I also like JSPs ( even with java-inside-the-page !).
And perl. And C. ( of course, I like java much more)

That doesn't mean people who like something else are stupid or
should be converted ( so they see the same lights that Jon is seeing :-). 

Costin



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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 07:13 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:


Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?


I do.


I actually like the declarative model  I sometimes have trouble in 
that processing syntax is not orthogonal to the syntax of what you are 
generally trying to output (XML, usually).

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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Not that this discussion has any useful point.. . But I adore the 
purpose and concepts behind XSLT, but I LOATHE the syntax.  However,
now that I know it, its not so bad.  

-Andy

Sam Ruby wrote:

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:



Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?



I do.

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/jakarta-alexandria/proposal/gump/stylesheet/xref.xsl?rev=1.21&content-type=text/plain

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 07:12 PM, Morgan Delagrange wrote:



--- "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?



I adore XSL and don't understand why people think it's
so complicated.  To me, an XML syntax for an XML
transform makes a lot more sense than this:



Just trying to diffuse...

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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Sam Ruby]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?


I do.

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/jakarta-alexandria/proposal/gump/stylesheet/xref.xsl?rev=1.21&content-type=text/plain

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Morgan Delagrange]

--- "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 06:55 PM, Andrew
> C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> 
> > In this post Jon expresses his acceptance for
> other technology and how 
> > he values community and wishes to work closely
> together:
> >
>
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102029828404481&w=2
> > > I can't stand XSL...
> 
> Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?
> 

I adore XSL and don't understand why people think it's
so complicated.  To me, an XML syntax for an XML
transform makes a lot more sense than this:

---
  #match("document")

  
$context.applyTemplates()
  

#end

#match("section")
  
  Section: $attrib.name
  $context.applyTemplates("p")
#end

#match("p")
  
  $node.copy($node.children())
  
#end
---

Also, many of the transformation alternatives don't
seem to support features like xsl:include and
xsl:import.  Try dealing with a dozen twenty-five-page
DTDs, each slightly different, and you'll appreciate
the ability to create layers of styles.

I'm a stranger in a strange land.

- Morgan

=
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog

__
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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 06:55 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:





In this post Jon expresses his acceptance for other technology and how 
he values community and wishes to work closely together:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102029828404481&w=2
> I can't stand XSL...

Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?

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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Andrew C. Oliver]

The point being that we seem to continue to do the same circle. We get
people like Nicola who are similar to Costin in "The Wall" mindset and the
same exact discussions go round and round just on different topics (ie:
Maven vs. Centipede vs. Forrest vs. vs. vs. vs.).


Okay.  I'll bite  I love a good stupid moronic discussion that 
serves no useful purpose other than ingraciate your ego Jon :-)

Personal growth on my part would assume that I would find a way to arrange
things so that they see the light without making them feel stupid and giving
them a way to win. However, with people who have "The Wall" mentality, I
have not been able to figure out the right approach as of yet.
 


Yes Jon.  Point well taken.  Nicola Ken needs to learn to make such 
unifying statements and "Bring people
together" the way you do.  Just for his education  I'll post a few here:

In this post Jon expresses his acceptance for other technology and how 
he values community and wishes to work closely together:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102029828404481&w=2
> I can't stand XSL...

It this post Jon expresses his preference to break down the wall:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102038789013943&w=2
"



I listen to the following:

Code.
Patches.
Real suggestions for improvement.


MERGE


It is your itch. Not mine.

"

In this post ken expresses his disgust with Maven and Centipede living 
as one project with no walls:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102028908729985&w=2
[Long proposal where Ken +1s combining Centipede and Maven and doesn't 
care where they live]

And for the record I expressed my preference to have 2 seperate projects 
here:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102026406806371&w=2
"
Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it. "Gee

we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with anything but 
this or that".  It just baffles the crap out of me.  

If I had the choice.  I'd use NEITHER.  I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.


-Andy the pebble.

"

So why don't you drive a combined Centipede/Maven as maybe a top level 
Apache project?  
It seems like a great way for you to break down this wall that disturbs 
you so.  I'd certainly vote for such a proposal.  
I'll betcha Nicola Ken would...

So Jon...did this wall REALLY
develop from Nicola Ken or both You and the Maven developers who didn't 
want to work inclusively?
You make the decision.

Did Stefano drink all your beer or something?  Why'd you wake up on this 
today eh?

-Andy the confused.

-jon

 




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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/12/19 10:25 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The Andy theorem on general Apache Jakarta discussions continues to
> prove true (they all devolve into a rehash of the bad ol days of Tomcat
> 3.3/4)...  Please don't take the bait guys... Pretty please?
> 
> -Andy

Sorry, it is a very sore point. Many long hours went into banging my head
against The Wall (Costin) and even to this day, he and I can't agree on
anything. The irony of it all is that Costin ended up dropping T3 and is now
working on T4/T5. If only he had listened to us back then, I wouldn't have
wasted so much time.

The point being that we seem to continue to do the same circle. We get
people like Nicola who are similar to Costin in "The Wall" mindset and the
same exact discussions go round and round just on different topics (ie:
Maven vs. Centipede vs. Forrest vs. vs. vs. vs.).

Personal growth on my part would assume that I would find a way to arrange
things so that they see the light without making them feel stupid and giving
them a way to win. However, with people who have "The Wall" mentality, I
have not been able to figure out the right approach as of yet.

-jon

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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Yup, just like Tomcat 3...which should have "reached its goal" years ago.

-jon

 

The Andy theorem on general Apache Jakarta discussions continues to 
prove true (they all devolve into a rehash of the bad ol days of Tomcat 
3.3/4)...  Please don't take the bait guys... Pretty please?

-Andy



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RE: Jakarta PMC report

[O'brien, Tim]

Where are the November board minutes now that they have been approved at
yesterday's board meeting?


Tim O'Brien 
W 847-574-2143
M 847-863-7045


> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:45 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Jakarta PMC report
> 
> 
> Various answers, in no particular order:
> 
> This is a chairman's report.  Typically, these appear after a 
> time delay 
> (once approved in a subsequent meeting) at 
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html .
> 
> I raised the issue about Tapestry in yesterday's board meeting.  Jim 
> Jagielski agreed to contact Andy ASAP.  First thing after the 
> holidays 
> would be a good time to pursue XDoclet.  It's time to 
> unpause.  ;-) Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] and express your 
> desires as to where this 
> codebase would land within the ASF.
> 
> My opinion is that subprojects that lack community due to stability 
> should become community property.  Perhaps commit messages should be 
> directed to general@.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
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> e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Costin Manolache]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

> on 2002/12/19 8:04 AM, "Costin Manolache" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I meant it very seriously - I think every project should have a goal,
>> and should eventually reach the goal in a finite amount of time. The
>> fact that jakarta-regexp "just works" and has met its goals is a very
>> positive thing. And the team that worked on it deserve ( sincere )
>> congratulations ( including you, Jon ).
>> 
>> Costin
> 
> Yup, just like Tomcat 3...which should have "reached its goal" years ago.

Yes. I personally think tomcat3.3 has reached its goals ( performance, 
modularity, simplicity, compliance, etc ). The time it takes to reach the 
project goals depends on many factors. 


Costin





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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/12/19 8:04 AM, "Costin Manolache" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I meant it very seriously - I think every project should have a goal,
> and should eventually reach the goal in a finite amount of time. The
> fact that jakarta-regexp "just works" and has met its goals is a very
> positive thing. And the team that worked on it deserve ( sincere )
> congratulations ( including you, Jon ).
> 
> Costin

Yup, just like Tomcat 3...which should have "reached its goal" years ago.

-jon

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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Costin Manolache]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

>> BTW - thanks for taking the time to fix the bugs in regexp, and
>> congratulations to  the jakarta-regexp team for completing the
>> project ! :-)
> 
> Thanks for being a complete idiot Costin.

I meant it very seriously - I think every project should have a goal,
and should eventually reach the goal in a finite amount of time. The
fact that jakarta-regexp "just works" and has met its goals is a very
positive thing. And the team that worked on it deserve ( sincere ) 
congratulations ( including you, Jon ).



Costin





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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Sam Ruby]

Danny Angus wrote:

This is a chairman's report.  Typically, these appear after a time delay 
(once approved in a subsequent meeting) at 
http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html .

thats what I thought, but I don't see any recent jakarta ones.


Bad, Jakarta chairman, bad.

- Sam Ruby



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RE: Jakarta PMC report

[Danny Angus]

> This is a chairman's report.  Typically, these appear after a time delay 
> (once approved in a subsequent meeting) at 
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html .

thats what I thought, but I don't see any recent jakarta ones.

d.

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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 18/12/02 19:00 "Doug Bateman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Seeing clarification:  Is Sam's post here the official report from
> the PMC, or a summary of a PMC report posted elsewhere?
> 
> Looking at the news page, I see a summary for status of each
> individual project in Jakarta, but no summary of the status and
> growth of Jakarta as a whole.  For example, PMC interest in
> slowing/stopping the imperialistic expansion isn't directly
> mentioned on the page, and yet is of interest to the community as
> a whole (users and developers).

Those should be integrated (IMO) in Rob's Newsletters... Now, if only the
different projects fed him some content

pier


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Andrew C. Oliver]

All you need is love, love...love is all you need...




Thanks for being a complete idiot Costin.

-jon

 




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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Sam Ruby]

Various answers, in no particular order:

This is a chairman's report.  Typically, these appear after a time delay 
(once approved in a subsequent meeting) at 
http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html .

I raised the issue about Tapestry in yesterday's board meeting.  Jim 
Jagielski agreed to contact Andy ASAP.  First thing after the holidays 
would be a good time to pursue XDoclet.  It's time to unpause.  ;-)
Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] and express your desires as to where this 
codebase would land within the ASF.

My opinion is that subprojects that lack community due to stability 
should become community property.  Perhaps commit messages should be 
directed to general@.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/12/18 9:19 PM, "Costin Manolache" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think the point was that we also need people to review the commits and
> people to vote on the release.

Thanks for volunteering.

> I don't know what "final" would mean - if bugs are found that affect
> projects using regexp ( like tomcat which AFAIK has a dependency ) - then
> I hope it'll still be possible to fix them.

Read what I wrote. It means it will be the last release of the
jakarta-regexp project. Given that you haven't fixed any of the bugs or done
any of the work on this project, what the hell are you talking about?

> My opinion about "stable" projects like regexp: we should change the

I just stopped reading after you said "my opinion".

> BTW - thanks for taking the time to fix the bugs in regexp, and
> congratulations to  the jakarta-regexp team for completing the
> project ! :-)

Thanks for being a complete idiot Costin.

-jon

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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Henri Yandell]

How does this balance with Sam's:

"Overall, the imperialistic expansion phase of Jakarta has been put on
pause.  No new code bases have been accepted."

?

Hen

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

> Sure.  Make sure you meet the criteria and write a proposal.  You just
> need some sponsoring folks.  I think Erik Hatcher is a big XDoclet fan.
>   It would be cool to see XDoclet proposed before Tapestry (I'm not
> volunteering for that, just an offhand remark).
>
> -Andy
>
> Ara Abrahamian wrote:
>
> >XDoclet (xdoclet.sf.net) also has some plans for moving to apache. I
> >kept an eye on Tapestry's transition process. I'm not sure when it's the
> >right time to officially propose it. So what are the plans for Jakarta?
> >When is this reorganization phase completed? When is it the right time
> >for XDoclet to put the proposal forward?
> >
> >Ara.
> >
> >
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:07 PM
> >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Subject: Jakarta PMC report
> >>
> >>The status report for Jakarta project is available at
> >>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html and
> >>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/index.html.  These summaries are
> >>community developed, monitored, and maintained.  Feedback on their
> >>contents should be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].
> >>
> >>I tried unsuccessfully to summarize the summaries without looking like
> >>
> >>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>was trying to prove a point about it not being a good idea.  Of
> >>
> >>
> >course,
> >
> >
> >>this begs the question about what happens when Jakarta is split up and
> >>all this data feeds directly into the board, but I digress.
> >>
> >>Overall, the imperialistic expansion phase of Jakarta has been put on
> >>pause.  No new code bases have been accepted.  Two colonies, Ant and
> >>Avalon, have split off successfully.  The only issue in this area is
> >>Tapestry which unfortunately has been left in limbo in the process,
> >>neither accepted by Jakarta nor by the Incubator.
> >>
> >>The biggest unresolved issues in Jakarta deal with codebases on either
> >>end of the maturity spectrum.  There are code bases which seen to be
> >>perennially in alpha, and therefore feel the right to change
> >>
> >>
> >interfaces
> >
> >
> >>on a whim and without regard to the community impact of such changes.
> >>Unfortunately, the existence of a sandbox seems to have
> >>institutionalized this policy.  Unquestionably, code bases in alpha
> >>should be allowed to experiment, but the establishment of a playground
> >>where this takes place indefinitely is not in the best interest of the
> >>ASF.
> >>
> >>On the other end of the spectrum is codebases which have matured to
> >>
> >>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>point where there aren't enough itches to scratch to maintain a
> >>development community.  Such codebases (for example, regexp) are
> >>
> >>
> >heavily
> >
> >
> >>depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta
> >>subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF
> >>despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There
> >>isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively
> >>monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>--
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> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Costin Manolache]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

> on 2002/12/18 7:36 AM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Such codebases (for example, regexp) are heavily
>> depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta
>> subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF
>> despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There
>> isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively
>> monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.
> 
> Hey, I resemble that remark!
> 
> The fact of the matter is that I have picked Regexp back up and have
> recently applied a bunch of bug fixes and closed a number of open issues
> (I spent about 1 hour on it).


I think the point was that we also need people to review the commits and 
people to vote on the release. 


> 20th), I plan to spend another couple hours and make one final release of
> Regexp.
> 
> At which point, I'm going to call the project 'final' and Jakarta can
> figure out what they want to do with it from there. Previous ideas
> included just moving it to be distributed under the ORO project which I
> think is a good idea and will remove some confusion. I will probably be
> willing to help with that.

I don't know what "final" would mean - if bugs are found that affect
projects using regexp ( like tomcat which AFAIK has a dependency ) - then
I hope it'll still be possible to fix them.

My opinion about "stable" projects like regexp: we should change the 
avail to include the whole jakarta ( similar with jakarta-commons ).
This way any project that has a dependency on regexp will be able
to protect itself and either fix the bugs that bite them or review changes 
that may break something. 

BTW - thanks for taking the time to fix the bugs in regexp, and 
congratulations to  the jakarta-regexp team for completing the
project ! :-)


Costin



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RE: Jakarta PMC report

[Costin Manolache]

Whenever you feel the time is right, you have my +1 :-)

It would be great if it would be added in jakarta-commons.

Costin


Ara Abrahamian wrote:

> XDoclet (xdoclet.sf.net) also has some plans for moving to apache. I
> kept an eye on Tapestry's transition process. I'm not sure when it's the
> right time to officially propose it. So what are the plans for Jakarta?
> When is this reorganization phase completed? When is it the right time
> for XDoclet to put the proposal forward?
> 
> Ara.
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:07 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Jakarta PMC report
>> 
>> The status report for Jakarta project is available at
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html and
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/index.html.  These summaries are
>> community developed, monitored, and maintained.  Feedback on their
>> contents should be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].
>> 
>> I tried unsuccessfully to summarize the summaries without looking like
> I
>> was trying to prove a point about it not being a good idea.  Of
> course,
>> this begs the question about what happens when Jakarta is split up and
>> all this data feeds directly into the board, but I digress.
>> 
>> Overall, the imperialistic expansion phase of Jakarta has been put on
>> pause.  No new code bases have been accepted.  Two colonies, Ant and
>> Avalon, have split off successfully.  The only issue in this area is
>> Tapestry which unfortunately has been left in limbo in the process,
>> neither accepted by Jakarta nor by the Incubator.
>> 
>> The biggest unresolved issues in Jakarta deal with codebases on either
>> end of the maturity spectrum.  There are code bases which seen to be
>> perennially in alpha, and therefore feel the right to change
> interfaces
>> on a whim and without regard to the community impact of such changes.
>> Unfortunately, the existence of a sandbox seems to have
>> institutionalized this policy.  Unquestionably, code bases in alpha
>> should be allowed to experiment, but the establishment of a playground
>> where this takes place indefinitely is not in the best interest of the
>> ASF.
>> 
>> On the other end of the spectrum is codebases which have matured to
> the
>> point where there aren't enough itches to scratch to maintain a
>> development community.  Such codebases (for example, regexp) are
> heavily
>> depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta
>> subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF
>> despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There
>> isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively
>> monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Sure.  Make sure you meet the criteria and write a proposal.  You just 
need some sponsoring folks.  I think Erik Hatcher is a big XDoclet fan. 
 It would be cool to see XDoclet proposed before Tapestry (I'm not 
volunteering for that, just an offhand remark).  

-Andy

Ara Abrahamian wrote:

XDoclet (xdoclet.sf.net) also has some plans for moving to apache. I
kept an eye on Tapestry's transition process. I'm not sure when it's the
right time to officially propose it. So what are the plans for Jakarta?
When is this reorganization phase completed? When is it the right time
for XDoclet to put the proposal forward?

Ara. 

 

-Original Message-
From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:07 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Jakarta PMC report

The status report for Jakarta project is available at
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html and
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/index.html.  These summaries are
community developed, monitored, and maintained.  Feedback on their
contents should be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].

I tried unsuccessfully to summarize the summaries without looking like
   

I
 

was trying to prove a point about it not being a good idea.  Of
   

course,
 

this begs the question about what happens when Jakarta is split up and
all this data feeds directly into the board, but I digress.

Overall, the imperialistic expansion phase of Jakarta has been put on
pause.  No new code bases have been accepted.  Two colonies, Ant and
Avalon, have split off successfully.  The only issue in this area is
Tapestry which unfortunately has been left in limbo in the process,
neither accepted by Jakarta nor by the Incubator.

The biggest unresolved issues in Jakarta deal with codebases on either
end of the maturity spectrum.  There are code bases which seen to be
perennially in alpha, and therefore feel the right to change
   

interfaces
 

on a whim and without regard to the community impact of such changes.
Unfortunately, the existence of a sandbox seems to have
institutionalized this policy.  Unquestionably, code bases in alpha
should be allowed to experiment, but the establishment of a playground
where this takes place indefinitely is not in the best interest of the
ASF.

On the other end of the spectrum is codebases which have matured to
   

the
 

point where there aren't enough itches to scratch to maintain a
development community.  Such codebases (for example, regexp) are
   

heavily
 

depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta
subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF
despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There
isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively
monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.


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<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 

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<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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RE: Jakarta PMC report

[Danny Angus]

> but no summary of the status and
> growth of Jakarta as a whole.

Yeah, it might be nice to have an occasional "State of the Nation" address.
I'm not really sure what one of those is, but I decided I'd better not say
"Queen's speech".

d.



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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Doug Bateman]

Seeing clarification:  Is Sam's post here the official report from
the PMC, or a summary of a PMC report posted elsewhere?

Looking at the news page, I see a summary for status of each
individual project in Jakarta, but no summary of the status and
growth of Jakarta as a whole.  For example, PMC interest in
slowing/stopping the imperialistic expansion isn't directly
mentioned on the page, and yet is of interest to the community as
a whole (users and developers).

Doug

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Sam Ruby wrote:

> The status report for Jakarta project is available at 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html and 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/index.html.  These summaries are 
> community developed, monitored, and maintained.  Feedback on their 
> contents should be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].
> 
> I tried unsuccessfully to summarize the summaries without looking like I 
> was trying to prove a point about it not being a good idea.  Of course, 
> this begs the question about what happens when Jakarta is split up and 
> all this data feeds directly into the board, but I digress.
> 
> Overall, the imperialistic expansion phase of Jakarta has been put on 
> pause.  No new code bases have been accepted.  Two colonies, Ant and 
> Avalon, have split off successfully.  The only issue in this area is 
> Tapestry which unfortunately has been left in limbo in the process, 
> neither accepted by Jakarta nor by the Incubator.
> 
> The biggest unresolved issues in Jakarta deal with codebases on either 
> end of the maturity spectrum.  There are code bases which seen to be 
> perennially in alpha, and therefore feel the right to change interfaces 
> on a whim and without regard to the community impact of such changes. 
> Unfortunately, the existence of a sandbox seems to have 
> institutionalized this policy.  Unquestionably, code bases in alpha 
> should be allowed to experiment, but the establishment of a playground 
> where this takes place indefinitely is not in the best interest of the ASF.
> 
> On the other end of the spectrum is codebases which have matured to the 
> point where there aren't enough itches to scratch to maintain a 
> development community.  Such codebases (for example, regexp) are heavily 
> depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta 
> subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF 
> despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There 
> isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively 
> monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

-- 
Life is the jailer, death the angel sent to draw the
unwilling bolts and set us free.

 James Lowell (1819-1891)
 American Poet, Critic and Editor


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RE: Jakarta PMC report

[Ara Abrahamian]

XDoclet (xdoclet.sf.net) also has some plans for moving to apache. I
kept an eye on Tapestry's transition process. I'm not sure when it's the
right time to officially propose it. So what are the plans for Jakarta?
When is this reorganization phase completed? When is it the right time
for XDoclet to put the proposal forward?

Ara. 

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:07 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Jakarta PMC report
> 
> The status report for Jakarta project is available at
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html and
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/index.html.  These summaries are
> community developed, monitored, and maintained.  Feedback on their
> contents should be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].
> 
> I tried unsuccessfully to summarize the summaries without looking like
I
> was trying to prove a point about it not being a good idea.  Of
course,
> this begs the question about what happens when Jakarta is split up and
> all this data feeds directly into the board, but I digress.
> 
> Overall, the imperialistic expansion phase of Jakarta has been put on
> pause.  No new code bases have been accepted.  Two colonies, Ant and
> Avalon, have split off successfully.  The only issue in this area is
> Tapestry which unfortunately has been left in limbo in the process,
> neither accepted by Jakarta nor by the Incubator.
> 
> The biggest unresolved issues in Jakarta deal with codebases on either
> end of the maturity spectrum.  There are code bases which seen to be
> perennially in alpha, and therefore feel the right to change
interfaces
> on a whim and without regard to the community impact of such changes.
> Unfortunately, the existence of a sandbox seems to have
> institutionalized this policy.  Unquestionably, code bases in alpha
> should be allowed to experiment, but the establishment of a playground
> where this takes place indefinitely is not in the best interest of the
> ASF.
> 
> On the other end of the spectrum is codebases which have matured to
the
> point where there aren't enough itches to scratch to maintain a
> development community.  Such codebases (for example, regexp) are
heavily
> depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta
> subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF
> despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There
> isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively
> monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/12/18 7:36 AM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Such codebases (for example, regexp) are heavily
> depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta
> subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF
> despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There
> isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively
> monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

The fact of the matter is that I have picked Regexp back up and have
recently applied a bunch of bug fixes and closed a number of open issues (I
spent about 1 hour on it).

I was going to close all the bugs the other day, but Nagoya decided to go
for a trip for a few hours while I was working on it and I got busy with
Scarab again. As soon as my current major Scarab deadline is over (Dec
20th), I plan to spend another couple hours and make one final release of
Regexp.

At which point, I'm going to call the project 'final' and Jakarta can figure
out what they want to do with it from there. Previous ideas included just
moving it to be distributed under the ORO project which I think is a good
idea and will remove some confusion. I will probably be willing to help with
that.

I think that there are far larger problems for the PMC to focus on (which I
still have not seen any response for) such as why all the file downloads for
OJB are still on SF.net.

-jon


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Jakarta PMC report

[Sam Ruby]

The status report for Jakarta project is available at 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html and 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/index.html.  These summaries are 
community developed, monitored, and maintained.  Feedback on their 
contents should be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].

I tried unsuccessfully to summarize the summaries without looking like I 
was trying to prove a point about it not being a good idea.  Of course, 
this begs the question about what happens when Jakarta is split up and 
all this data feeds directly into the board, but I digress.

Overall, the imperialistic expansion phase of Jakarta has been put on 
pause.  No new code bases have been accepted.  Two colonies, Ant and 
Avalon, have split off successfully.  The only issue in this area is 
Tapestry which unfortunately has been left in limbo in the process, 
neither accepted by Jakarta nor by the Incubator.

The biggest unresolved issues in Jakarta deal with codebases on either 
end of the maturity spectrum.  There are code bases which seen to be 
perennially in alpha, and therefore feel the right to change interfaces 
on a whim and without regard to the community impact of such changes. 
Unfortunately, the existence of a sandbox seems to have 
institutionalized this policy.  Unquestionably, code bases in alpha 
should be allowed to experiment, but the establishment of a playground 
where this takes place indefinitely is not in the best interest of the ASF.

On the other end of the spectrum is codebases which have matured to the 
point where there aren't enough itches to scratch to maintain a 
development community.  Such codebases (for example, regexp) are heavily 
depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta 
subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF 
despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There 
isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively 
monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.


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