Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Pheonix] Heartbeat team force

2010-04-08 Thread Sebastian Pipping
On 04/07/10 21:24, Ben de Groot wrote:
 with the herd embedded it's difficult though: the page
 http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/index.xml
 lists members for it but the page source does not
 hold it, explicitly.  where does it come from?
 
 It does, as can be seen in
 http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/index.xml?passthru=1

you refer to the members of the embedded team.
i was refering to the members of the embedded herd.
the rendered page lists

   dagger, kumba, pebenito, solar

to be working for that herd.  the link you gave does not
contain the word dagger.  how does it get in there?



sebastian



[gentoo-dev] Re: [Gentoo Pheonix] Heartbeat team force

2010-04-08 Thread Torsten Veller
* Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org:
 i was refering to the members of the embedded herd.
 the rendered page lists
 
dagger, kumba, pebenito, solar
 
 to be working for that herd.  the link you gave does not
 contain the word dagger.  how does it get in there?

From herds.xml. Really.



Re: [gentoo-dev] Council meeting 19 April 2010

2010-04-08 Thread Petteri R├Ąty
On 04/07/2010 12:05 PM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
 Next monthly council meeting will be at 19 April 2010, 18:00 UTC
 in #gentoo-council.
 
 If you have any topics you want us to discuss or even vote about,
 simply followup to this message.
 
 Ulrich
 

Two things already discussed on this mailing list but I don't see a
definite consensus so taking for a spin through council.

1. Keywording bugs with a single arch:

http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_3f8603c9bc97b7b0bcf59782848c2650.xml

Options to vote in order:

After the maintainer has accepted that a package is good for stable (by
being the assignee or reporter).
a) The preferred way is to assign the bug to the single arch in question
b) The bug can be either assigned to the arch or the arch can be CCed
   and the maintainer is the assignee
c) The maintainer is the assignee and the arch is CCed

2. Bugzilla resolutions

http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_9cb8abe1d6608e4fb4e525833eea897b.xml

Vote on:
- Remove LATER and REMIND from resolutions
- Add LATER as a KEYWORD
- Add resolution OBSOLETE

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Council meeting 19 April 2010

2010-04-08 Thread Brian Harring
On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 11:05:34AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
 Next monthly council meeting will be at 19 April 2010, 18:00 UTC
 in #gentoo-council.
 
 If you have any topics you want us to discuss or even vote about,
 simply followup to this message.

VALID_USE-
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_b0e868626019f497eba47194c34e5421.xml

Historically, no PMS change has been glep'ified, but if the council 
wants PMS changes to start being glep'd I'd be willing to guinea pig 
this one- earliest I'd have the glep out the door is saturday also.

Few additional notes to the proposal-
1) few has offered up his time patch wise.
2) if he backs out, I'll throw in a gurantee of having it done prior 
to the next council meeting (realistically I can do it faster, I just 
have other fish I'd like to be frying).
3) dev feedback generally has been positive, exempting ciaran's views 
on it- please review those (if you'd like a summation I can provide 
one).
4) if there are questions re: use cycle breaking or other bits, feel 
free to ask prior please- council meeting times unfortunately right 
now intersect badly with my paying work so it's hard to be online to 
answer questions during the meeting (that said per the norm I'll try).
5) final reminder- part of the impetus of this is that if this is 
punted till EAPI5, it forces pkg_pretend as the interim use constraint 
checking- this has some nasty implications on the use cycle breaking 
intentions since it would require everyone to upgrade their ebuilds to 
EAPI5 if they've got use state constraints.  Basically screws things 
up a bit and requires a potentially pointless EAPI bump for the sake 
of trying to knock EAPI4 out the door now (regardless of how long it 
takes to stable portage for it) rather than adding a few weeks in.

Thanks-
~harring


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Council meeting 19 April 2010

2010-04-08 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:02:25 -0700
Brian Harring ferri...@gmail.com wrote:
 4) if there are questions re: use cycle breaking or other bits, feel 
 free to ask prior please- council meeting times unfortunately right 
 now intersect badly with my paying work so it's hard to be online to 
 answer questions during the meeting (that said per the norm I'll try).

Please detail your cycle breaking algorithm that works in such a way
that it's guaranteed not to toggle flags that will break a system, but
that does not require any changes to be made to ebuilds etc telling the
package manager what those flags are.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Council meeting 19 April 2010

2010-04-08 Thread Patrick Lauer
On 04/08/10 15:29, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:02:25 -0700
 Brian Harring ferri...@gmail.com wrote:
 4) if there are questions re: use cycle breaking or other bits, feel 
 free to ask prior please- council meeting times unfortunately right 
 now intersect badly with my paying work so it's hard to be online to 
 answer questions during the meeting (that said per the norm I'll try).
 
 Please detail your cycle breaking algorithm that works in such a way
 that it's guaranteed not to toggle flags that will break a system, but
 that does not require any changes to be made to ebuilds etc telling the
 package manager what those flags are.
 
That would violate the Entscheidungsproblem.

But why would you make the cycle breaking depend on an oracle? Once we
have the method in place we can find the two special cases and think of
ways to fix them. Abandoning the idea as a whole just because there may
be a corner case that isn't as easy appears quite silly to me.

Brian's proposal is the only one I've seen that is deterministic and
sane, so I think we should figure out if we can improve it instead of
giving up at the first bump in the road.



Re: [gentoo-dev] Council meeting 19 April 2010

2010-04-08 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:08:57 +0200
Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote:
  Please detail your cycle breaking algorithm that works in such a way
  that it's guaranteed not to toggle flags that will break a system,
  but that does not require any changes to be made to ebuilds etc
  telling the package manager what those flags are.
  
 That would violate the Entscheidungsproblem.
 
 But why would you make the cycle breaking depend on an oracle? Once we
 have the method in place we can find the two special cases and think
 of ways to fix them.

The problem is, the special cases where it goes horribly wrong aren't
rare. As soon as you start looking for cycles, you find flags like
'build', 'bootstrap' and 'acl'.

 Abandoning the idea as a whole just because there may be a corner
 case that isn't as easy appears quite silly to me.

I'm not after abandoning the idea. I'm after doing it properly, and
doing it properly starts by handling the problematic cases rather than
pretending they don't exist.

We've already seen repeatedly what goes wrong when you start with the
assumption it'll probably work and then pile on special exceptions
every time someone gets screwed over by something you didn't think of.
Why don't we go with we'll only do it for things where we know it'll
work instead this time?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Pheonix] Heartbeat team force

2010-04-08 Thread Robin H. Johnson
On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 01:20:11PM +0200, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
 Current results
 ===
 Bug load per developer
 --
 http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/bug-heartbeat/report--bug-count-by-person.html
What's the actual math that you're using (it wasn't clear in your repo).

 Question to be answered
 ===
  - herds.xml does not hold membership lists for
all projects, not even herds.  The load
evaluator needs access to complete mappings
to generate output close to reality.
How can such a mapping be made without
duplicating data?
herds, project files, aliases: 
- 3 sets of non-overlapping data.
- lets ignore the private aliases for now, very few of them should get
  package bugs.

Report on unresolved bugs owned by hidden aliases:
- 11 of the 93 aliases have bugs
- 258 bugs in total
- Those with  10 bugs:
- infra, 78
- bugzilla, 47
- retirement, 28
- mirror-admin, 21
- forum-mods, 20
- devrel, 19
- recruiters, 19

  - Pulling XML out of Bugzilla does no longer
feel right with this amount of data:
it's 15,000 open bugs that need to be
refreshed periodically in chunks of 100 bugs
(Bugzilla's limit) each.  That's 150 request
for a full sync.  How can that be improved?
Lets talk more about what queries you're using, and we can probably work
something out.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Developer, Trustee  Infrastructure Lead
E-Mail : robb...@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85


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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Ryan Hill
On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:12:49 +0200
Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:

 After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
 have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
 users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
 feedback on this new project is welcome.

why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?  it
seems like a complete duplication of effort.  i'm not saying don't do it, i'm
just baffled why we would.

 - moderation

can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?  i'd like to
document some of our policies/best practices that don't seem to be in
writing anywhere (after vetting them on the list of course).


-- 
fonts,by design, by neglect
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Ben de Groot
On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote:
 why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?

Because some devs request things like this:

 can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?

In our wiki we will be able to.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead



[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Ryan Hill
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:07 +0200
Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:

 On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote:
  why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?
 
 Because some devs request things like this:
 
  can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?
 
 In our wiki we will be able to.

you misunderstood me.  i've wanted a dev wiki for years.  i just don't see why
it should also be promoted as a user wiki when one already exists.


-- 
fonts,by design, by neglect
gcc-porting,  for a fact or just for effect
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Pheonix] Heartbeat team force

2010-04-08 Thread Sebastian Pipping
On 04/08/10 21:16, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 01:20:11PM +0200, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
 Current results
 ===
 Bug load per developer
 --
 http://dev.gentoo.org/~sping/bug-heartbeat/report--bug-count-by-person.html
 What's the actual math that you're using (it wasn't clear in your repo).

let me try in python:

load[dev] = bugs[dev] \
+ reduce(sum, [bugs(h)/members(h) for h in herds[dev]])

it's personal bugs plus a fraction of all herds you're in.
makes sense?


  - Pulling XML out of Bugzilla does no longer
feel right with this amount of data:
it's 15,000 open bugs that need to be
refreshed periodically in chunks of 100 bugs
(Bugzilla's limit) each.  That's 150 request
for a full sync.  How can that be improved?
 Lets talk more about what queries you're using, and we can probably work
 something out.

speaking of queries would limit me in what i may ask the data in the
future.  i have a full dump on open bugs more or less so i can ask them
whatever i like.  it's more flexible to me and makes much easier code
than SQL stuff would.

i guess that doesn't make it easier?



sebastian



RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Sylvain Alain

The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good 
doc.

A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so 
they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.

I don't see your point.





 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
 From: dirtye...@gentoo.org
 Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:56:04 -0600
 
 On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:07 +0200
 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:
 
  On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote:
   why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?
  
  Because some devs request things like this:
  
   can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?
  
  In our wiki we will be able to.
 
 you misunderstood me.  i've wanted a dev wiki for years.  i just don't see why
 it should also be promoted as a user wiki when one already exists.
 
 
 -- 
 fonts,by design, by neglect
 gcc-porting,  for a fact or just for effect
 wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
  
_
Videos that have everyone talking! Now also in HD!
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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Ryan Hill
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 +
Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote:

 
 The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good 
 doc.
 
 A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so 
 they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.
 
 I don't see your point.

They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/.  I think having
two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor
base.  It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official
wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any
case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things.


-- 
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RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Sylvain Alain

Indeed, that's why I don't want to have a wiki for devs only. The Gentoo wiki 
must be for the community and by the community :P

There are many Gentoo experts that don't want to be officially devs.

d2_racing


 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
 From: dirtye...@gentoo.org
 Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:55:36 -0600
 
 On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 +
 Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  
  The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty 
  good doc.
  
  A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, 
  so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.
  
  I don't see your point.
 
 They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/.  I think having
 two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor
 base.  It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official
 wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any
 case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things.
 
 
 -- 
 fonts,by design, by neglect
 gcc-porting,  for a fact or just for effect
 wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
  
_
Live connected. Get Hotmail  Messenger on your phone.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Patrick Nagel
Hi,

On 2010-04-08 19:51 UTC Ryan Hill wrote:
 On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:12:49 +0200
 
 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:
  After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
  have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
  users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
  feedback on this new project is welcome.
 
 why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists? 
 it seems like a complete duplication of effort.  i'm not saying don't do
 it, i'm just baffled why we would.

Well, one reason could be, that the unofficial one lost its whole database 
once, and there were other multiple multi-day outages in the past. I expect an 
official Wiki to have a reasonable availability and not losing most of the 
content, breaking links all over the net for months.

Patrick.

-- 
Key ID: 0x86E346D4http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc
Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4


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