Re: [gentoo-dev] Email subdomain

[George Prowse]

Actually "staff" gives the ideal ambiguity that is needed for these
placements. The need to seperate developers from staff who have
seperate jobs to do is an acute one. 

At the moment the @gentoo.org address is seen as a developer one but as
you mentioned the word "staff" is already used to describe forums staff
and devrel, some of which dont develop for Gentoo. A solution for that
could be to give all developers a @dev.gentoo.org address but seeing as
developers are by far the biggest group with that address it would be
silly to. A better way to have it is to call non-developers "staff" and
give them a @staff.g.o address.

This addressing would also be useful for the future when people are
used by Gentoo in other areas like specifically for management, PR or
even sales; basically any volunteer who adds to Gentoo in a
non-developmental role.

GeorgeOn 11/18/05, Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 11:09:07AM -0600, Homer Parker wrote:>   Now that GLEP 41 (AT/HT) has passed, we need to designate a subdomain> for their email. This will cover AT/HT's as well as forum help, so needs
> to be generic. So to start with let me throw a couple out:Just for the record and to hopefully not revive that whole discussionabout different types of developers/staff again: Forumsmoderators/admins have @
gentoo.org email addresses and aren't reallyaffected by that subdomain. Also the term staff is already taken byforums staff and infra/devrel staff (if there are folks that aren't
full developers among them), so adding staff.gentoo.org for the AT andsimilar ones may be even more confusing.Imo ht.gentoo.org would sound quite useful, but may be not generic
enough (was a mentioned as requirement somewhereiirc). @assist.gentoo.org sounds ok, personally i think [EMAIL PROTECTED]sounds nice.cheers,
Wernfried--Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot orgGentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.orgIRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org
--gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Email subdomain

[George Prowse]

The only reason any of this is coming up is because some wanted to keep
the .g.org addresses to the developer staff. If the CVS access is read
only and they are working for gentoo what difference would it make?
This would sort out the AT and forums question in one swoop.

George
On 11/19/05, Grant Goodyear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lance Albertson wrote: [Fri Nov 18 2005, 05:46:47PM CST]> Anyways, I don't see any problem with us giving them straight up> [EMAIL PROTECTED] aliases. They won't have shell access, nor cvs so we
> don't have to worry about that. This makes it very simple for us infra> folks to manage. I can only imagine the hell we'll create when someone> moves from staff.g.o to tester.g.o to g.o. I will not support any GLEP
> that proposes any nonsense like that since its totally not needed. Yes,> I could have spoken up about this sooner, but I can't keep track of> every thread on -dev.I believe that the issue was that @
g.o addresses generally denote a dev,and that giving such addresses to people who are not devs could causeconfusion.  For example, suppose we have a user who specializes in aparticular imap server.  If there were an urgent security issue, such a
user might get a request to stable the package despite the fact that theperson isn't a dev, which wouldn't serve anybody.A simpler method would be to ditch the idea of handing out e-mailaddresses to users, no matter how much work they do for us, but that
idea wasn't much more popular than any of the others.  *Shrug*> I'm very disappointed that the council did not wait on the vote for this> considering the sudden submission of the revision of the GLEP. I'm
> curious the reasoning for going ahead with this?Have you read the log?  It's fairly clear why they did it; they werebeing nice, because although I always intended the GLEP process to beiterative, with plenty of time for comments, I never put it in writing..
I personally think that it would have been better to hold off until nextmonth, but it was a judgement call, and I don't think it was whollyunreasonable.  The Council did go out of their way to emphasize that
there should not be a repeat of this event.-g2boojum---Grant GoodyearGentoo Developer[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0  9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two

[George Prowse]

Having organised several Gentoo UK meetings I would like to be advised
if anyone has a problem; especially if they dont come or have no idea
when, where or what they are.

George ProwseOn 11/18/05, Stuart Herbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Chris,Sorry for the delay in replying.  Having a few reliability problems withmy broadband atm.On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 08:59 -0500, Chris Gianelloni wrote:> I thought your proposal was to get critical information to our users,
> not force every user to read that $dev is going to be in $country from> $date1 to $date2.This seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.  I've justgone back and checked my original blog posting, and I definitely didn't
say anything about limiting news delivered via Portage in any way.> this, then I change my opinion on supporting this proposal, as I surely> don't give a damn about some dev meet in the UK that I would never be
> able to attend and *definitely* don't want that *shoved* down my throat> by the tree.That's twice now you've had a pop at the UK meetings in this thread.  Ifthere's some problem with the meetings that you'd like to get off your
chest, you could take it up with me on IRC or any of the other UK devs.The events I've been involved in organising have been events for users,and they've always been put together by both developers and users.  I
believe that some of our users *are* interested in exactly this type ofnews - and, from the enquiries I've had in the past, not just UK-basedpeople.Maybe we should add the ability to filter news based on some sort of
geographical setting too?  That'd be a reasonable thing to add to theGLEP I think.>   I also noticed how you lost context in my quote by the way> you quoted it.  Thanks.FFS, chill out, or even better come and talk to me on IRC about this
chip you seem to have on your shoulder in our recent dealings.  I've noidea what it is that I've done to upset you atm, but I don't think thathere and bugzilla are the places for it.> > I think that's a worthy goal, but looking around, it looks to me that
> > software design just doesn't work like that in real life.  Designs have> > to adapt and change as time passes, not just implementations.>> Really?  I work with quite a few developers where I work.  We have
> meetings.  During these meetings, requirements are hashed out to cover> the scope of the project.  The code is then written to the> specifications.  If a later change is made into the requirements, then
> another meeting takes place, and a change request is agreed upon and> scheduled.  They sure as hell don't let the requirements slip otherwise,> or they would end up in the ever-developing and never-completing world.
And, equally, the Portage tree is full of examples of software that hasnot been developed this way.  I'm not saying that it's not a validengineering practice; but it's not the only way in the world that
software gets developed.But anyway - we were talking about design, not requirements.  Althoughobviously related, I've always seen them as being different things.> We're talking about a *very* simple set of things that need to be
> developed here.  Why *would* we even consider not laying out the> requirements up front?I think we're talking at cross-purposes here.  You're talking aboutrequirements now, but my comment that you're responding to was about the
design, which I would normally treat as being different to requirements.I agree that it's simple.  But I also think that, once we're using it,we'll learn from that experience and want to make changes.  I may not be
the best practitioner of it, but I am a great believer in the F/OSS wayof release early, release often.  As a community, we don't seem to havedone too badly out of that approach.Best regards,Stu
--Stuart
Herbert
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Gentoo
Developer  http://www.gentoo.org/  http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/
GnuGP key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.eduKey fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319  C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C---BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG 
v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQBDfmd0DC+AuvmvxXwRAtafAJ9OJtjtMg6iP+/uzrf3+LAuWMjOkACgu++7gjAOPPFf5clNdJnyqfKnZfE==aSWJ-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [gentoo-dev] Email subdomain

[George Prowse]

As these would be @gentoo.org people they would be easier for devrel to
tackle. Making them closer under the gentoo wing just makes them easier
to dicipline.On 11/19/05, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:34:10 -0800 Corey Shields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:| Why not ditch the idea of yellow-starred "arch testers" and make it| easy for *all* users to participate in the stability-validation of
| all of our packages?We've seen why this won't work in the past... Too few users know how todo proper testing. We've had "please keyword, works for me" bugs forthings that will always segfault on startup. We've had several people
who think it'd be clever to automate testing reports. We've got enoughricers out there that clearly broken things would end up getting "worksfor me" spammed even more than they are already...
--Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!)Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.orgWeb : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm

Re: [gentoo-dev] Email subdomain

[George Prowse]

Yeah, I think a sub-domain may not be a good solution but unfortunately
it is the best at present. The site is a good idea but nothing stops it
from abuse. The suggestion that people are ATs for a short time before
becoming full devs anyway is another reason for them to be give @g.o
addresses. Leave adminstration to the least and give the specific
volunteers with jobs addresses.

If the need is to seperate the people with responsibility from those
without then there is no real solution but to give them either sub
domains or leave them outside the gentoo fold.

I think the website is a good idea but it would eventually mean that
the ATs would get the job of testing the packages that the users say
are ok so that the devs can concentrate on bugsOn 11/19/05, Corey Shields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Friday 18 November 2005 07:01 pm, George Prowse wrote:>
As these would be @gentoo.org <http://gentoo.org> people they
would be easier for devrel to tackle. Making them closer under the
gentoo wing justmakes them easier to dicipline.No, you misunderstood...  In the theoretical site I was describing, they wouldbe users..  not @gentoo.org ppl.-C--
Corey ShieldsGentoo Linux Infrastructure TeamGentoo Foundation Board of Trusteeshttp://www.gentoo.org/~cshields

Re: [gentoo-dev] Email subdomain

[George Prowse]

Of course, by being restrictive to the people who wish to help
long-term that is the greatest benefit to gentoo. If the @g.o email
addresses are a problem then the subdomain @staff.g.o has been
suggested. The staff subdomain would contain almost all relevant other
domains. If in the unlikely event that somone proposes a subdomain to
gentoo that couldn't be considered 'staff' or 'developer' then that can
be considered at a later date.

In the mean time we can have a GLEP about that site you were suggesting because that would make the ATs more efficient.On 11/19/05, Corey Shields <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:On Friday 18 November 2005 07:40 pm, George Prowse wrote:
> Yeah, I think a sub-domain may not be a good solution but unfortunately it> is the best at present. The site is a good idea but nothing stops it fromI disagree that it is the best idea..   Better on my list is to just not hand
out email addresses if they can't be @g.oWhat subdomain is going to come next?  @xbox360ppcport.gentoo.org?  I'll joinKurt in the yellowstar domain..-C
--Corey ShieldsGentoo Linux Infrastructure TeamGentoo Foundation Board of Trusteeshttp://www.gentoo.org/~cshields--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Email subdomain

[George Prowse]

On 19/11/05, Sven Vermeulen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've said it in the first meeting and I'll reiterate: what is the sentiment
> of the arch testers in this case (if they are still reading this thread)?
>
Anything that makes us do our job better and makes our lives easier is
a good thing. Thats how I feel.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Email subdomain

[George Prowse]

On 19/11/05, George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 19/11/05, Sven Vermeulen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I've said it in the first meeting and I'll reiterate: what is the sentiment
> > of the arch testers in this case (if they are still reading this thread)?
> >
> Anything that makes us do our job better and makes our lives easier is
> a good thing. Thats how I feel.
>
Adding on to that, the mud slinging and conspiracy theories in this
thread benefit no-one, especially those looking at Gentoo from the
outside in. I see more "Who Killed JR?" than "this is good/bad
because..."

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: Re[6]: [gentoo-dev] Decision to remove stage1/2 from installation documentation

[George Prowse]

No stage 1 or 2? Excellent. People seem to wear Stage 1 like a badge
of honour but never seem to realise that the earlier you play around
with your system the deeper the mistakes.

Why are the instructions for the stage 1 and 2 in the handbook at all?
They should be in Gentoo dev space and the only way new users find out
about it should be through word of mouth. The people who *really*
need/want a stage 1 will have the knowlege to ask releng about it

George

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] status of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org

[George Prowse]

Is it possible to have the font from the original Aaron Shi design?

George

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] R/O CVS access and its purpose for ATs (was Email subdomain)

[George Prowse]

On 23/11/05, Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Daniel Ostrow wrote:
>
> > Lance:
> >
> > I know this is a far cry from what you are proposing, and I understand
> > that the present CVS server cannot handle this sort of load but I
> > believe that this was the original intention at least...someone correct
> > me if I am wrong.
>
> One of the issues we had with direct cvs access is managing all of the
> AT accounts. If we're talking 50-100 ATs, that increases our user
> account management load by a lot considering we only have 300 developers
> right now. The other reason is of course with load on lark itself. We
> can only do so many concurrent cvs up's of the full tree and adding this
> many users concerns me alot with that aspect.
>
> As what kurt said in a followup to this email, If we can nail down that
> the primary need of the GLEP is quick access to changes, that will help
> us a lot in figuring out the logistics of the issue.
>
> I know pylon had talked about the newer cvs allowing for a virtually
> 'live' update to another cvs box via a commit hook, but he's been rather
> busy lately and hasn't had a chance to work on that. I think that has
> the best hope down the road of resolving this GLEP. I would just like to
> keep the management of lark to the minimum if at all possible, so for
> now I would prefer a restricted rsync module or cvs box that gets
> updated every X minutes.
>
> Cheers-
>
> --
> Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager
>
> ---
> GPG Public Key:  
> Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742
>
> ramereth/irc.freenode.net
>
>
What about finding out how many ATs are going to be using it at the
start and limiting the amount of ATs with access to <40-50 until
either a new way for access has been decided on or new equipment has
been brought it. Currently I wouldn't need it because I am without
amd64 equipment until after equipment.

George

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo

[George Prowse]

On 24/11/05, lnxg33k <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:49:18 +0100 Filip Bartmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > | I want have Gentoo in e-shop with Linux distributions. I find, that
> > | Gentoo is under GNU/GPL. Must I distribute in e-shop sources of
> > | Gentoo too? Where I can found them(sources)? Where I can found
> > | graphics, which I can use on CD with Gentoo?
> >
> > Consult your lawyer. Any legal advice you get on this list will be
> > bogus.
> >
>
> Any legal advice given by those not in a position to give said advice (a
> licensed attornery) is actually illegal -- just some general info.
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
Being consulted on legal matters under the pretense that you are
qualified to do so is fraud but any one can advise on legal matters.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] vendors.gentoo.org

[George Prowse]

Is vendors.gentoo.org going to have the new redesign that curtis119 is
implementating? It seems that it is on a different server and vhost and
is maintained by someone other than Ian! now. 

Does it have a future under the Gentoo umbrella?

George

[gentoo-dev] Creating a Sketeton System

[George Prowse]

After some talk in the forums a point came up that we need a way to reduce the long used gentoo system to a bare point before X but after any baselayout upgrade had been applied. This script would enable two things: a person to rebuild his system after a library malfunction and also if a person wanted to switch from 100% gtk to 100% qt or vice-versa.
At present we have depclean to reduce anything past xorg-x11 but that doesn't get as far as anything that doesn't rely on a package being able to depend on an GUI, libraries need to be brought in and all but baselayout needs to be cleaned out so a "bare bone" is left.
This would be useful as an arch tester because snapshots could be made of various stages and tested.George

Re: [gentoo-dev] Creating a Sketeton System

[George Prowse]

On 12/12/05, Andrew Muraco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
George Prowse wrote:> After some talk in the forums a point came up that we need a way to> reduce the long used gentoo system to a bare point before X but after> any baselayout upgrade had been applied.
Isn't that what the stages are, Barebone systems?yes but if you extracted a stage on to an already built system you would not only have the  the mess there that you wanted to get rid of but also all your config files would revert back to older versions and you'd lose any changes made.
> This script would enable two things: a person to rebuild his system> after a library malfunction and also if a person wanted to switch from
> 100% gtk to 100% qt or vice-versa.>> At present we have depclean to reduce anything past xorg-x11 but that> doesn't get as far as anything that doesn't rely on a package being> able to depend on an GUI, libraries need to be brought in and all but
> baselayout needs to be cleaned out so a "bare bone" is left.Why not just move world out of the way and then emerge what you want tokeep/install then emerge depclean the rest (although this could easily
fubar a system if they do it blindly removing important system packages)because i'd rather not use depclean but also depclean doesn't get rid of the configs left by any packages, for instance: if i had xfce on my system before and i did  emerge -C xorg-x11 && emerge depclean xfce would be wiped off but if i emerged  xfce again there would still be modified parts that would use the options i selected on the previous version.
George

Re: [gentoo-dev] Creating a Sketeton System

[George Prowse]

No, only the config files that are in a stage 3 should be left, some of
those will be edited and some will have been upgraded so they should be
left. It would be like emerge --unmerge --shallow world to take you
back the that original state so then any major changes could be made
without reinstalling as you would basically have an upgraded stage 3
after some unmergingOn 12/12/05, Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
George Prowse wrote:> yes but if you extracted a stage on to an already built system you would> not only have the the mess there that you wanted to get rid of but also> all your config files would revert back to older versions and you'd lose
> any changes made> because i'd rather not use depclean but also depclean doesn't get rid of> the configs left by any packages, for instance: if i had xfce on my> system before and i did  emerge -C xorg-x11 && emerge depclean xfce
> would be wiped off but if i emerged xfce again there would still be> modified parts that would use the options i selected on the previous> version.It really sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. You don't want
your config files overwritten, but you don't want your config files usedwhen you remerge the packages?Thanks,Donnie--gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Searching for a person who can advice me

[George Prowse]

Pick an area to help in and help with it (file bug reports, submit patches, comment on mailing lists). If people notice you are working well towards a specific area you are far more likely to be mentored. Ask this question to a developer in a few months time, one who you have a rapport with.
GeorgeOn 22/02/06, Rafael Bugajewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Gentoo developers,because I do not know anybody in the Gentoo developer community I want to askif anybody has enough time and motivation to help a newbie doing his firststeps in Gentoo development?
It would be nice if this person could also "transform" to my mentor if I feelready in some weeks, months or years...Bye,Rafael

Re: [gentoo-dev] beep-media-player removal: 04/03/2006

[George Prowse]

No, BPMx and Audacious are two different thingshttp://audacious-media-player.org/FAQ#1.4On 22/02/06, 
Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Wednesday 22 February 2006 19:34, Stephen P. Becker wrote:> Ugh, it looks like this new 'BMPx' branch uses gstreamer. Is there no> way to keep the good old clean, working version of BMP in portage?That is audacious.
--Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

Re: [gentoo-dev] New forums staffer: kernelsensei (Boris Fersing)

[George Prowse]

Oh no! Not kernelsensei!!!On 23/02/06, Boris Fersing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
2006/2/23, Peter Gordon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 22:48 +0100, Wernfried Haas wrote:> > Boris is one of the people taking care of the French forum and now has
> > joined the official Gentoo ranks.> >> > He writes about himself:> > My name is Boris Fersing, I'm 20 years old, French and live on the> > French-German border. I study Computational Linguistics at the
> > University of Saarland (Germany). My hobbies are Psychology, japanese> > culture, martial arts (like Iaido), beer and of course Gentoo ;)>> Welcome to the team, Boris! :-]>
Thanks all ;)Boris.> --> Peter Gordon (codergeek42)> Gentoo Forums Global Moderator> GnuPG Public Key: 0xDA3634D7; Fingerprint:> 0629 F604 3C14 937E F088  E5E9 B3CB 48EC DA36 34D7
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.1 (GNU/Linux)>> iD8DBQBD/Sfps8tI7No2NNcRAhAhAJ4tqfyDySiO3AEc5iMPLCl9K94NyACfUOXn> pob/WMkJRjvEIQ0CLnXoo+s=> =Up4e
> -END PGP SIGNATURE->>>--Quiconque me parle de Dieu en veut à ma bourse ou à ma liberté.--gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo-based sysadmin job

[George Prowse]

Would we be required to fix the mess left by the previous sys-admin? :pGeorgeOn 28/02/06, Rob Holland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:Hi peeps,LINX (http://www.linx.net
) are looking for a sys-admin with excellentGentoo knowledge. Hardened toolchain and/or grsec experience areconsidered a big plus.You will act as the Gentoo guru for the IT department and are expected
to be very comfortably with Gentoo on servers. Where you don't know howto do something, you should be able to research and learn it quickly.You would be required to live in/near Peterborough, UK. That's about an
hour from London by train.If you are interested, please see:https://www.linx.net/www_public/about/careersAny questions, feel free to ask me and I'll either answer myself or
point you towards the correct person at LINX.-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQBEBC701lw5L9kbRykRAgwCAJwJAIlG7Dn0wXOLxHCH4b5p+Yii8wCdFjWXV/HipfvjOAZmYS/uRoB0kG0=
=Z+cO-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [gentoo-dev] New Gentoo doc developer: Josh Saddler (nightmorph)

[George Prowse]

Peter, the least you could do is take your boyfriend somewhere nice... ;)On 09/03/06, Peter Gordon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:Another Southern Californian, it would seem. Excellent. If you're ever
in the Anaheim/Orange County Area give me a jingle. We could go for someStarbucks and head to Fry's or something. :PWelcome aboard, Josh!--Peter Gordon (codergeek42)Gentoo Forums Global Moderator
GnuPG Public Key: 0xDA3634D7; Fingerprint:0629 F604 3C14 937E F088  E5E9 B3CB 48EC DA36 34D7-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQBED8nPs8tI7No2NNcRAi8IAJ9hcq61sdppIYOs9WtjoV2yQHS8yACdGhNX
VZdcDC82NdzcXh7yH/D10XQ==xph8-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [gentoo-dev] IMPORTANT: OSL outage

[George Prowse]

I cant pick up my -dev emails because of this outageGeorgeOn 13/03/06, Lars Weiler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
* Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [06/03/13 15:46 +0100]:
> On Mon, Mar 13, 2006 at 08:34:59AM -0600, Lance Albertson wrote:> > [..] the database server is not working (bugs/forums/etc). I have half of the> > machines back up, while others are still MIA.
>> Chuck Norris to the rescue!> Good luck finding thembut he still counts to infinity... for the second time!--gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Making the developer community more open

[George Prowse]

On 20/03/06, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:07:37 + Daniel Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:| One of the bigger problems is that we have a huge user community who| are keen on contributing, but we have such a high barrier for entry
| to the developer community. Quite rightly so - we're dealing with a| live tree, so we can't give out commit access on the street.A relatively easy way of lowering that barrier would be to providegood, up to date, example-oriented ebuild writing documentation.
There's too much stuff that people need to know to write ebuilds that'snot written down anywhere -- this not only makes it harder for users towrite good ebuilds, but also leads to some of them being dissuaded when
they're told that the only way to know what's policy is by having paidattention on the mailing lists for the past five years.Bridge the gap between the developers and the users and you have a user community that has a better knowlege of the distro and it's working and you have a developeer community more in touch with it's users. Most people would love to help but knowing where to start is the greatest challenge, make it easy for them to know how to be a developer and then they can decide if they have something to contribute. As Ciaran said, up-to-date ebuild documentation is a must but it needs a bit of "the idiots guide to ebuilds" style to it. Also a big assumption is made that people know how to use CVS and other systems.
"Book them and they will come..."George

[gentoo-dev] Not offering help to certain parts of society

[George Prowse]

I have always respected Gentoo for it's ability to be completely helpful for people no matter what their circumstances but i fear we are pushing a secion of society away. We offer forums, mailing lists and the distribution itself in a variety of languages, we have attempted to port portage to various architectures and we give talks and represent the linux community at various ventures around the world. We need to be a bit more politically correct and help those who may not be in great numbers.
The problem is that we are in no way helping our Amish friends. If we made it easier to use linux then i'm sure they'd embrace FOSS straight away! I suggest some measures that would help them integrate better because it may be frowned upon at first.
1. We should offer a special list: gentoo-amish2. We should off that list by carrier pidgeon(s) for those who may find it difficult to get to a computer3. When an event is being held in or around Pennsylvania we should send a horse and cart to bring them instead of offering plane tickets.
4. Along with Gentoo t-shirts we should offer large black gentoo hats and black gentoo suits.5. A Gentoo logo could be offered to them so it could be sown on their quilts and perhaps sold in the Gentoo store
I think you'll agree that although it is not essential it is an act of respect and is helpful in trying to bridge the gap between the Amish and FOSS communities.George

Re: [gentoo-dev] Heritage

[George Prowse]

On 08/05/06, Curtis Napier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've been around since the beginning and have fond memories of Larryjust like the rest of you. I wasn't planning on getting rid of him.
In fact, I was planning on using him a little more for other things. Ialready used him for a custom error page[1] and was planning on workinghim into other places on the website. Presently the only place Larry is
mentioned in any way shape or form is in that stupid (Yes, *STUPID*)poster on the about page.So, since Xavier bothered I will keep the stupid poster upfor now,but it is going away eventually and will be replaced with something
better. What that "something better" is I don't know yet but ."something".Just like everything else Gentoo related, it all takes time. So pleasebe patient and don't get overly excited about little changes like this.
It will all come together and be professional yet *still* be the wackywebsite that we all know and love. I promise.--Curtis[1]http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/error.html
 
We need larry, otherwise we would be another penguin in a sea of tuxes. What else is there? Some reddish headwear device? 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Paludis and Profiles

[George Prowse]

Why risk anything by changing the tree to suit the package? It just
seems like asking for trouble. The overlay ability is there for a
reason. Paludis isn't being used and should be kept out of the sphere
of users use until it is usable, wont break systems and is trustworthy enough to be near the tree  

Re: [gentoo-dev] Paludis and Profiles

[George Prowse]

On 17/05/06, Stephen Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2006 15:25:08 +0100"George Prowse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Why risk anything by changing the tree to suit the package?We're not risking anything, except upsetting a few people. We're not
changing anything either, just adding a few files.
Any adding is increasing the risk. 
> It just> seems like asking for trouble. The overlay ability is there for a
> reason.Yes, to work around a lack of multiple repository support. It's notthere to try to mix profiles between repositories.
Surely then it would be better to work on a comprimise for the sake of Gentoo rather than paludis. Horse before the cart.
> Paludis isn't being used and should be kept out of the sphere> of users use until it is usable, wont break systems and is
> trustworthy enough to be near the treeIt is, it is, it won't unless the user screws up (as with, say,Portage), and it is.
So good working practice is to introduce a variable where breakages
could come from two directions rather than stick with what works? Let
the project mature before asking for changes from the Gentoo side.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Paludis and Profiles

[George Prowse]

On 17/05/06, Stephen Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Wed, 17 May 2006 15:57:51 +0100"George Prowse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> So good working practice is to introduce a variable where breakages

> could come from two directions rather than stick with what works? Let> the project mature before asking for changes from the Gentoo side.That paragraph makes no sense. I don't see what you're trying to say.

What it is saying is why introduce anything or change anything just for
your package? Why introduce the possibility of a problem on either the
program or the tree side? 

So far you have failed to give one proper reason for why a change should be made.

Re: [gentoo-dev] I'm retiring

[George Prowse]

On 17/05/06, Rob Holland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey all,As I've done very little Gentoo work in last few months and havegenerally lost interest in Gentoo, I'll be retiring.If you need to reach me you can find me at 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], or onIRC where I'll continue to sit in #gentoo-audit.Credit to the security/audit team for being fun and interesting enoughthat this didn't happen earlier, despite my lack of enthusiasm for
Gentoo as a distribution now. I'll continue to sit in the sec/auditchannels and generally be available there as best I can.Please close any accounts I have, and if possible, change my bugzillaaccount to be 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]. All email/home stuff can go.Thanks, and maybe cya around :)Rob--gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Gentoo will be worse off without you, not many people remember "the" night

George

Re: [gentoo-dev] Alternative Gentoo package managers discussion request (for the council)

[George Prowse]

On 18/05/06, Christel Dahlskjaer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 2006-05-18 at 00:23 +0100, Christel Dahlskjaer wrote:> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 17:38 -0400, Mark Loeser wrote:> > As the latest long thread has shown, there seems to be a split (it is hard to> > tell exactly) on whether or not alternative package managers, that support
> > Gentoo ebuilds to some degree, should be added to the tree and supported.> > Supported in this case means having their own profiles which may or may not> > work with Portage.  There are currently a few different Portage rewrites, or
> > alternatives, whatever you want to call them, and all of them have their own> > unique features being added to them which make them incompatible with Portage.> > Some don't even emulate Portage's "broken" behaviour which could also cause
> > QA problems for us if we add the package to the tree.  If a package is in the> > tree, it is implicitly stating that we are going to offer some level of> > support for that application, and it increases workload for everyone that
> > may have an ebuild that works with one package manager and not another.> >> > Therefore, I am requesting at the next Council meeting that they discuss> > and decide on how we want to handle problems like this in general.  This
> > is not going to be the last time that someone wants to add their rewrite/> > alternative of Portage to the tree.  It should be decided if it is really> > in the best interests of Gentoo, its users, and developers to be adding
> > these new managers to our own tree, instead of having them host their> > altered work on their own infrastructure.> >> > As the QA lead, I am requesting that until the Council convenes and decides
> > on how we should proceed, that we not add anything else to the tree> > for the sole reason of supporting another package manager's features.> > This includes profiles or any other packages.  This will reduce
> > headaches for all of us, and hopefully cut down on needless arguments> > that get us no where.>> Good call Mark. I second this request.Maybe I should have ellaborated on that, I do believe that the current
thread has been somewhat educational for a 'newbie' like myself, but Ialso think that for the future it would be beneficial for people to knowhow to go about similar. :)--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing listGlad to see my suggestion of sorting this problem before going full stream ahead:

>
Surely then it would be better to work on a comprimise for the sake of Gentoo rather than paludis. Horse before the cart.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: 259 paludis-profile messages. ENOUGH!

[George Prowse]

On 18/05/06, Chris White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1On Thu, 18 May 2006 17:08:17 -0400Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> On Thu, 18 May 2006 22:01:42 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> > Then learn how to use your mail client.> >> > And hey, look, by starting yet another thread you're just making> > noise in an attempt to justify a personal grudge, thus making
> > things harder for the people who do real work around here. If you> > don't have anything useful to contribute, shut up and go away.> >>> Ciaram, I was actually sticking up for you and spb. I said nothing
> about you or anyone else -- just the project. As usual though, you> take something and turn it into something it isn't and respond with> insults.Relax! Grab some popcorn, enjoy the show!  30 mile threads is what
makes real linux distros real.  We actually use them to provide a meansof cooking for the weekly dev BBQ's.  Anyways, at this point I'd callit it a day and say "Hey everyone, let's all go to IRC"!  With that you
could probably reduce the thread count by 40%.You could try telling people to sort their conversation into logicalstructure.. but last time I tried that, Ciaranm put up a procmail ruleon how to nuke all mails from me, and someone else told me to pretty
much shove it. No love lolz!So here's $5.00, grab some popcorn and soda and enjoy the show!Chris White-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFEbAuRFdQwWVoAgN4RAqrnAJ94aXQ4QdwXIG+V8RpRFE8uqLXn6QCgmz+w
XHY3AG3QBGIosaGSJfogNEs==RTSY-END PGP SIGNATURE---gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list/me points the first finger

Re: [gentoo-dev] Herds suck, fix them

[George Prowse]

On 15/06/06, Kevin F. Quinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 00:31:41 -0400Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> So apparently they suck, anyone have a new shiny idea on how to group> packages and maintaining developers?
We could be boring and change "herd" to "packagegroup".--Kevin F. QuinnMaybe that would stop everyone treating eachother like cattle?George

Re: [gentoo-dev] New Forums Staff : NeddySeagoon

[George Prowse]

On 15/06/06, Curtis Napier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Shyam Mani wrote:> Hi everyone,>> Please take a moment to welcome our latest addition to the Forums gang,> Roy Bamford aka NeddySeagoon.Thanks for volunteering your time Roy, we will all benefit from your
extensive knowledge and your patience with n00bs.--Curtisand his extensive knowlege of punch card technology :)George

Re: [gentoo-dev] GWN Comments

[George Prowse]

On 19/06/06, Tobias Klausmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi!

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Caleb Tennis wrote:
> I'd like to propose some form of ability to post user comments
> to GWN stories.  I suppose a full blown CMS system would work,
> but for the ease of time I'm suggesting that perhaps we open up
> a GWN section on the forums and post the text of the GWN (or
> perhaps each section) in a new thread each week and allow users
> to write comments.  I think opening up this venue of feedback
> would let users more readily tell us what they're interested
> in, and it would allow GWN contributors/editors/etc to see some
> of the fruits of their labors.
>
> Any comments?

Principally, I agree (though I'd also rather go with the blog
approach as Patrick suggested). One point though: commenting only
being possible after registration may cut down on the spam (both
commercial and vandalism),


You have to register for a forums as well (usually) and if it were
made part of Gentoo's forums then there would be no need for extra
moderators.


but it also raises the bar for legitimate comments.


Again, the thread system of forums allows for easier viewing of comments.


I'm not saying there should be no hurdle, it's just that it
should be thought of/decided beforehand.

Regards,
Tobias


Personally I think discussions in a wiki get more difficult the longer
the discussion carries on, also i think the ability to get an email
after comments have been made on a thread is a *big* advantage over
the wiki style.

It would be easier to clean up and cut down on vandalism because GWN
contributors and authors could have an ability to moderate said forum
and delete threads once they have been used or discarded.

George
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GWN Comments

[George Prowse]

Personally I dont think it would be worth having the whole GWN on the
forums, if people dont read it in the email or online then putting it
on the forums isn't going to make them start reading it.

What the forum does allow is for people to suggest stories, give
suggestions for tips and tricks and generally comment on stories made
in the GWN if the so wish.

It would probably be like having an extra 20 people working and Plate
wouldn't have to do so much.

Also, as long as amne and kallamej stay away from it, it'll be fine :)

George
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[George Prowse]

Josh Saddler wrote:

Denis Dupeyron wrote:

Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In
alphabetical order:
amne
betelgeuse
dberkholz
flameeyes
jokey
lu_zero
vapier


Seconded.


Thirded
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[George Prowse]

Alex Howells wrote:

2008/6/3 George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Thirded


Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
nominate or support nominations?

Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
gets a second.


Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[George Prowse]

Ulrich Mueller wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008, George Prowse wrote:



Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
nominate or support nominations?

[...]



Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.


GLEP 39 says something else:

| * Council members will be chosen by a general election of all devs
|   once per year.

Ulrich


Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
6.  Voting Process

* Council elections generally happen once a year

* Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)

I have voted in the previous 3 elections, 2 of my nominations accepted 
in 2006 :)


http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/voting-logs/council-2006-nominees.xml
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

[George Prowse]

William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:

On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 11:31 +0100, George Prowse wrote:

Alex Howells wrote:

2008/6/3 George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Thirded

Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
nominate or support nominations?

Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
gets a second.

Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.


Foundation members, and Gentoo Developers are not the same. I do not
believe Council elections have anything at all to do with the
Foundation.


Sorry, my bad. I presumed he was talking about the council
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2008/2009

[George Prowse]

Alex Howells wrote:


In short: vote for me if you want less bullshit, less asshats and a
more fun distribution. That is all.


Damn! Astinus for PM! :)

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Council Idea

[George Prowse]

I have an strange idea, it will probably get shot down by everyone or 
people will point out that it has been discussed and thought it was a 
bad idea but anyway...


...why not invite a developer from another distribution to join the council?

I think inviting co-operation from other areas would only be of benefit. 
Ideas could get a fresh view, decisions would be completely unbiased and 
previous politics would never come into play.


It may have some ancillary benefits. Close co-operation with another 
distribution could lead to a lasting co-operation of mutual help and 
collaboration and could well be a format that other distros use in the 
future.


flame away...

George

(sorry if the post sounds hippie-ish)
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2008/2009

[George Prowse]

Ferris McCormick wrote:

I also nominate:
NeddySeagoon

Regards,
Ferris


I completely agree. Few people have done more behind the scenes as Roy.

I would also like to nominate zmendico for his excellent work with portage.

George
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

[George Prowse]

Luca Barbato wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

Package manager maintainers refusing to do basic testing before
claiming support for a new EAPI has very messy consequences. If package
manager maintainers aren't going to do the responsible thing, the whole
point of EAPIs is lost.


Thats a circular argument since portage and pkgcore developers are 
complaining about eapi definition and PMS management.


lu

If the bickering is stopping development then maybe it should be given 
to a 3rd party to complete and have the last word.

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:32:35 +0100
George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

If the bickering is stopping development then maybe it should be
given to a 3rd party to complete and have the last word.


Considering third parties have at best contributed a few small patches,
I don't see that getting very far... If a third party's genuinely
prepared to take over and do the work they're more than welcome to.

I dont see that the work isn't done, I see arguing about standards and 
implementations and as there is 3 voices in this and little is being 
decided then anything that can't be sorted should be submitted for 
review and decisions taken.


There are things that I don't understand about the EAPI structure (why 
versions may be incompatible with each other) but it seems like we are 
heading for differing standards soon.


Feel free to flame and call me a fool...
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:34:56 -0400
Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd honestly like to see an official PMS project page i.e. 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/pms/


There's http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/pms.xml . Unfortunately, rane
decided to go and vandalise it for some reason and no-one working on
PMS appears to have commit access to it...


I would like to comment that the wording on that page is unacceptable.

"With the advent of alternative package managers, this ill-defined 
standard is no longer sufficient..." makes it sound like the previous 
work that was done was by idiots.

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June

[George Prowse]

Thomas Anderson wrote:

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:11:51PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:34:56 -0400
Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd honestly like to see an official PMS project page i.e. 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/pms/

There's http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/pms.xml . Unfortunately, rane
decided to go and vandalise it for some reason and no-one working on
PMS appears to have commit access to it...

I would like to comment that the wording on that page is unacceptable.

"With the advent of alternative package managers, this ill-defined standard 
is no longer sufficient..." makes it sound like the previous work that was 
done was by idiots.

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list


That says nothing about the previous state of the portage. It only says
the standard wasn't well-defined before PMS.

It sounds and looks bad. It is so poorly written it looks as if the 
author is saying "the last one was crap so we have to do a better one". 
In fact, "ill-defined" needn't be in there at all. "this is no longer 
sufficient" is sufficient. A better thing to write would be:


"With the advent of alternative package managers a further defining of 
standard is necessary..."

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2008/2009 Nominations end TODAY 23:59 UTC

[George Prowse]

Although he has been nominated already and thus declined I would still 
like amne to change his mind and run for council again.


George
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

[George Prowse]

++

It's about time someone said this and I honestly think that lots of 
developers will be thinking the same.


In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and 
force it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best 
for all if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making 
paludis for a different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start...


Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote:

Chris++

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 PM, Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


On Sun, 2008-06-15 at 15:50 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 > Do you think that the differences between the proportion of patches
 > from 'Paludis people' that are accepted or rejected and the
proportion
 > of patches from 'Portage people' or 'Pkgcore people' indicates a
 > problem?

Nope.   What I see as a problem is that the primary author and current
de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was forcibly
removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to be written
for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package manager's
development team with his constant not-so-subtle attacks.  Quite
frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over the specification that
defines the most important single feature of Gentoo and remove the
non-Gentoo developers from its development.  No offense, but you're not
a Gentoo developer any longer and you shouldn't have a say in how *we*
manage ourselves.  You're more than welcome to contribute code, fork, or
whatever the hell you want.  This is open source, after all, but that
doesn't mean you should be allowed to hold the position of power over
Gentoo that you've been granted.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer




--
Mauricio Lima Pilla
Polytechnic Center - UCPEL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] , 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

http://g3pd.ucpel.tche.br/~pilla
key 0x37705BE0

"I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept."
-- Calvin


--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
Ivan Chernyavsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the
right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I
thought technical discussions are of most importance here.


You are sadly mistaken... 


Once again, all accusations and no proof.

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 +
"Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
| * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the
| ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently
| forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current
| Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers
| to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA.

Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If
not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD?


I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on
the record statements, if you're interested.


I'd be careful, that is potentially libellous.
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Retirement

[George Prowse]

On 11 Aug 2008, at 14:19, Patrick Lauer wrote:


Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:51:11 -0700
"Alec Warner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Despite our best efforts Gentoo is not a fun-loving community where
everyone gets along.



Actually, I'd say that's a fairly accurate description of the  
problem.

Some people think Gentoo should primarily be a fun-loving community
where everyone gets along, whilst others think Gentoo should  
primarily

be a first-rate distribution delivering a quality product.

You say that as if it is mutually exclusive. I claim that having fun  
leads to quality products because of motivation and the feedback  
between people where one challenges the other to do better - I've  
seen quite a few examples of such interactions in the past, but  
thanks to depressing monologues by people with too much ego that is  
becoming more and more rare.


Gentoo is supposed to be fun.

If it stops being fun only grumpy old men will do the bare minimum  
to keep things from breaking too badly instead of improving things.  
Meh. I demand mandatory fun hours twice a week! And a coffee  
machine. And a pony. Yes! A pony!


GLEP 57. Coffee machine and Pony Needed.

When in need of help, Gentoo needs a knight in shining armour, that  
usually comes as coffee so to facilitate that we need a coffee machine  
and a pony. I have just been informed by amne that the pony needs to  
be pink.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

[George Prowse]

Peter Faraday Weller wrote:

Hi

Thanks,
welp


Sad to hear it mate.

As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you 
will be missed.


I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things 
because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has 
been improving in the past 12 months.


About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago 
might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in 
much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can 
come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a 
vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything 
about Gentoo wanting people.


If you book them, they will come.

G

[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Thomas Sachau wrote:

Mario Fetka schrieb:

On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:

Peter Faraday Weller wrote:

Hi

Thanks,
welp

Sad to hear it mate.

As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
will be missed.

I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
been improving in the past 12 months.

About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in
much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can
come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
about Gentoo wanting people.

If you book them, they will come.

G

and I would be the first to come

Mario





For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, 
there is already an option:

Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation 
from the topic. The
Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone 
willing to learn and
contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create 
ebuilds, how to improve them
and how to maintain them.
As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, 
that dont get a
developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all 
contributors learn the ebuild
development work themselves.

And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good 
chance that you may
level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way 
to become a full
Gentoo developer. ;-)

So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably 
other projects also
have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be 
the communication
between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options 
to become a new
developer.



I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join 
you will always be understaffed.


Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal 
communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux 
magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people 
talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell 
the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!


If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk 
people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the 
influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully 
be here for years to come.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Mounir Lamouri wrote:

George Prowse wrote:

I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to
join you will always be understaffed.

Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some
linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get
people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your
hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a
difference!

If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will
hopefully be here for years to come.


I agree with you. Gentoo is not doing enough publicity on needed help (I
sincerely think the related page in gentoo.org is out of date) and we
can read too often in gentoo.org recruitment pages that "user should not
ask and should wait to be asking". I'm not sure most devs are looking to
users as potential new devs. It's clearly not a good recruitment policy.
Maybe when we are full staffed but surely not when we are understaffed
like it looks like.
An active recruitment policy like a recruitment campaign should be very
positive and I would be glad to help with that.

Regards,
Mounir



I'm always willing to help also. I have plenty of time on my hands.

First you need a date, then you need some devs who will be at their 
computers then you can go ape. Message everyone under the sun that 
Gentoo is going on a recruitment drive on from $date and there will be 
lots of friendly people in $location, $location and $location to show 
people what is required.


Of course it would be easier if we had a list from Gentoo where help is 
needed most and we could broadcast for people in those areas.


We could even write a web page where people added their names and 
details as a kind of pre-signup to test the water and see how many 
people we might get. Keep the names visible because that might create 
extra PR.


"Gentoo is looking for linux personnel and also those familiar with the 
distribution itself. What is required is either linux experience or 
experience with Gentoo, knowlege of bash and a helpful, happy attitude..."


If it were successful then a large group of mentors would be needed.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

[George Prowse]

Markos Chandras wrote:

On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:00 Thomas Anderson wrote:

On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:

On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote:

Arch
teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs
on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well
supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.

Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major
arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of
slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on
amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though.

Thomas

/me is listing all the reported issues

Really? I was thinking about joining amd64 project but when I visited the 
project page , I saw like 25 people listed as developers. So I thought that 
"Woow,there are plenty of dudes here, so there is no urgent need for new 
developers right now"


This is a major issue as well. If the project pages are way out of date, how 
do we expect people to understand our real needs on manpower etc. Cleaning and 
updating the project pages once a while is not that difficult. It takes about 
15' ( and a couple of e-mails to inform the slackers ).


If we really (?) want  to run a "recruitment" campaign, our "web presence" but 
be quite active and responsible.


Is all this "help needed" stuff that ordinary users can help out with? 
If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Thomas Sachau wrote:

George Prowse schrieb:

Thomas Sachau wrote:

For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
ebuilds, there is already an option:

Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
documentation from the topic. The
Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for
everyone willing to learn and
contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
create ebuilds, how to improve them
and how to maintain them.
As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
maintained, that dont get a
developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all
contributors learn the ebuild
development work themselves.

And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there
is a good chance that you may
level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This
was my way to become a full
Gentoo developer. ;-)

So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
(probably other projects also
have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem
may be the communication
between potential new developers and the current developer base and
our options to become a new
developer.


I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
you will always be understaffed.

Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!

If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
be here for years to come.




Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. So 
if anyone is willing
to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work and 
time myself.

The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing people 
to the sunrise project
and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail.

I also fear that any sustained campaign would be bogged down in Gentoo's 
red tape.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
George Prowse  wrote:
If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to

walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer
then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who
will hopefully be here for years to come.


That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With
lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have
ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only
recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more
developers.

And where did i say their abilities wouldn't be verified? Come on now, 
you'll have to do better than that.


In terms of figures a conservative estimate would be 25% wouldn't have 
the necessary skills and another 25% would be unsuitable.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Arttu V. wrote:

On 5/7/09, Duncan <1i5t5.dun...@cox.net> wrote:

There's no reason that can't be done via email, and throwing in
some live commit feed action might make it a bit interesting. =:^)


I'm sensing a sort of a "patches welcome" attitude from the crowd,
i.e., not falling for a hard sell of just the idea. And as it stands,
they may also be familiar with your emails from, e.g., gentoo-user
list? :)

Maybe you have to prove the functionality of your email-based
processes over irc-oriented ones by, e.g., forking gentoo into
duncantoo (or whatever, duncantoo.org appears to be available) and
running things successfully on email for a while? ;)

Oh good lord, what have I started here... I can see that being as 
successful as the Norweigan referee in last nights Chelsea v Barcelona game

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Thilo Bangert wrote:
to me, the above two contradictory viewpoints are the essence of the 
apparent and real decline in Gentoo activity. The two are just not 
compatible with each other and there is no clear guidance on to which of 
the two should be followed.


in the one corner we have the 'Daniel Robbins' corner, which stands for an 
open and inclusive process, which favors new comers, wants fast progress 
regardsless of the technical limitations of that process. also, being nice 
is more important than being correct. one central repository is where all 
development should happen - this is were we came from.


in the other corner is the gentoo leftover of the exherbo fork: the few 
people how continue to work on Gentoo but generally prefer the direction 
of Exherbo. technical elitism, explicitism and  formal standardization are 
their trade. being correct is more important than good intentions. 
overlays or multiple repositories help achieve a hierarchy of not-good-to-

supported ebuilds. we are halfway here...


it would be good if we collectively could agree on some of these issues, 
in order to move forward. as with many of the other technical discussions 
which lead to nowhere, it's more important that there is a clear 
direction, than into which direction we are headed.


maybe we need a debian project leader position - or a council, which is 
sensitive to the internal devide among developers and gives clear 
directions.


if the above offends you, please take a walk before replying. it may sound 
inflammtory - its not meant to be.


thanks
Thilo

People have been trying to resolve the situation you described for a 
long time. Working within it and minimising the negative effects of such 
stark contrasts in views has been one of the challenges of Gentoo in 
recent times. An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently 
works.


I doubt a figurehead would make any difference. They would need nerves 
of steel and would have to not care about making unpopular decisions and 
it would be difficult to take anyone from the current crop of 
[excellent] developers because it seems that everyone has taken sides 
already so immediately any decision was made an argument about bias 
would be likely come up


G

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Mon, 11 May 2009 23:17:32 +0100
George Prowse  wrote:

An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently works.


An equilibrium has been reached, agreed, but that it works is up for
debate. There is a strong argument to be made that preserving the
equilibrium will keep Gentoo the way it is now -- delivering at best the
same user experience now that it was several years ago, in an
increasingly difficult and more competitive environment.

Well, anything is better than the Romeo and Juliet-esque factions at war 
a few years ago; as you and plasmaroo could probably attest to.

Re: [gentoo-dev] The fallacies of GLEP55

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 14 May 2009 20:06:51 +0200
Patrick Lauer  wrote:

"You need to know the EAPI to parse the ebuild to find the EAPI"
Obviously that's not true, because somehow we manage at the moment.
And if one does a small restriction (which doesn't restrict current
behaviour because all in-tree ebuilds currently fit within this
limitation) it becomes trivial again:

Let EAPI be defined as (the part behind the = of) the first line of
the ebuild starting with EAPI=


Uh, so horribly utterly and obviously wrong.

inherit foo
EAPI=4

where foo is both a global and a non-global eclass that sets metadata.

If you're looking for a formally correct alternative that works in the
way you suggest, I already provided one, and you already read about it
-- and it still doesn't solve the problems that 55 does.


"It's slower!"
The theory here being that a stat() is needed if it is encoded in the 
filename, but a stat() followed by an open() to parse it from the

file. Well then, just cache it! You can use the mtime to check the
cache validity (which means you do a stat() anyway, so with glep55
caching it is actually slower!), and then you have to parse the
ebuild anyway for the other metadata. So the "extra" cost of finding
the EAPI is ... what extra cost? The only case when it is actually
slower is when there is no cache because then you have to parse the
ebuild. But that "degenerate" case will only hit some overlay users
and people like developers that can wait .3 seconds longer. And ...
uhm ... to extract other metadata like DEPENDS you'll have to parse
it anyway.


Where on earth are you getting the idea that GLEP 55 makes things
slower? The only difference to the code with GLEP 55 is in checking
file extensions against a slightly larger set of strings, which is
nowhere near a measurable increase in anything. You're claiming that
checking for a suffix of either ".ebuild-4" or ".ebuild" against a
fixed string is in any way relevant, which is obviously trolling.


"Having GLEP55 allows us to add GLEP54 without issues!"
Yeah, uhm, the live-ness of an ebuild is an attribute. How about we
add it to metadata, as we should for all metadata? Define a key, I
don't know ... LIVE ? LIVE="true". There. No need to fix the
filename. And now stop mixing up issues because it is highly
confusing!


There is no existing version ordering solution that accurately
represents upstream scm branches.

A few words in closing - 


We can encode all the relevant info in "the first line of the ebuild
starting with EAPI="


No we can't. That's *obviously* completely wrong.


The overhead of parsing out this value for all ebuilds in the tree
has been timed at ~2 CPU-seconds by solar. It's negligible.


Those of us who have been measuring this have been discarding CPU time
entirely, since it's utterly irrelevant. That you bring CPU time into
this shows you've been deliberately ignoring everything we've said.

We all know you're not stupid enough to believe what you've been
posting or ignorant enough to miss the point so badly. So please stop
pretending -- this issue would have gone through a long time ago were
it not for you and your ilk deliberately pretending to be retarded so
you can raise straw man arguments against it rather than addressing the
issues at hand. You're doing both yourself and everyone else a huge
disfavour by acting dumb and assuming everyone else is going to play
along with that.

Having countered those four points I guess you agree with the other five 
then. Over 50% success rate (by your definition) is hardly being 
ignorant or trolling

Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections

[George Prowse]

Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
I think it would be in the best interest of both Exherbo and Gentoo to elect 
gentoofan23, betelgeuse, dev-zero, peper, calchan and dertobi123 to the Gentoo 
Council.


Why is Exherbo's interests anything to do with Gentoo's? Does this 
happen with Sabayon or SystemRescueCd or any other Gentoo-based distro?


> This strengthening bridge of understanding can be seen in dev-
> zero's move to appoint ciaranm as his proxy for today's council
> meeting.

If a doctor loses his right to practice medicine you dont allow him to 
speak on the board of a hospital

Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections

[George Prowse]

Alistair Bush wrote:


As our closest relative ( of any distro ) 


You mean apart from all the other Gentoo based distros?

Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:31:43 +0100
George Prowse  wrote:

 > This strengthening bridge of understanding can be seen in dev-
 > zero's move to appoint ciaranm as his proxy for today's council
 > meeting.

If a doctor loses his right to practice medicine you dont allow him
to speak on the board of a hospital


Coming from you, George, that's rather rich... Also, I would like to
remind you that the Council's decision was everything to do with the
rules not allowing a non-developer to proxy (a claim which has yet to
be substantiated), and nothing to do with the attempts of a small number
of malcontents that anything involving me, Paludis or Exherbo is so
amazingly evil that it must be entirely ignored.

I'm sure getting personal about subjects on a Gentoo mailing list will 
endear yourself to everyone.


Thinking logically for a second, if you really cared about Gentoo you 
would have tried your best to be good and nice in the... I dunno, 4 
years(?) since your ejection and then worked your way up to being a 
developer again.


Trying to get into Gentoo by proxy (heh, see what I did there?) is the 
wrong way and spending the last 4 years doing the wrong thing means that 
you have done nothing to warrant you being included in not only Gentoo 
but it's heirachy (and this is without mentioning your trolling on the 
lists and your banning from the forums).


If you succeed are you going to invite Patrick and Plasmaroo to join the 
exherbo "council"?

Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 20:46:27 +0100
George Prowse  wrote:

I'm sure getting personal about subjects on a Gentoo mailing list
will endear yourself to everyone.


Uh, isn't that exactly what you're doing?


Nope, I never mentioned anything personal about you, in fact I can't 
remember mentioning your name at all.


Thinking logically for a second, if you really cared about Gentoo you 
would have tried your best to be good and nice in the... I dunno, 4 
years(?) since your ejection and then worked your way up to being a 
developer again.


Why? I'm interested in getting things done, not in jumping through
arbitrary hoops and starting yet another silly Gentoo politics flamewar.


You choose to be in these flamewars. As I stated, if you really cared 
then at some time since your exclusion you would have worked on Gentoo 
and kept your nose clean, people would have had no choice but to accept 
you had noting but Gentoo's best interest at heart.



Trying to get into Gentoo by proxy (heh, see what I did there?) is
the wrong way and spending the last 4 years doing the wrong thing
means that you have done nothing to warrant you being included in not
only Gentoo but it's heirachy (and this is without mentioning your
trolling on the lists and your banning from the forums).


I'm not trying to get into Gentoo by proxy at all. I shall remind you
that this was Tiziano's request and decision, not mine, and that I was
merely helping Gentoo out by carrying out a request from a Council
member.


You're not stupid, you knew exactly what would happen and you let all 
the flames come instead of being humble and suggesting that it wasn't 
the best idea.



If you succeed are you going to invite Patrick and Plasmaroo to join
the exherbo "council"?


That's not my decision. I don't have anything to do with the running of
Exherbo. However, if Patrick or Plasmaroo have useful contributions for
Exherbo, I would be happy to ensure that those contributions get
applied.


Don't take that too literally, it was only meant as an example.


Again, this is not about me or Exherbo. It's about the Council's
unsubstantiated claim that the rules prohibit a Council member from
selecting a non-developer as a proxy.

If you select a non-developer as a proxy then it degrades what it means 
to be a developer. Would you be happy if you local MP got his granny to 
vote in parliament when he was on holiday?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: UEFI secure boot and Gentoo

[George Prowse]

The Reg has a story on this from a blog post by Red Hat. It may be worth a
read:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/18/windows_8_linux_secure_boot/

Re: [gentoo-dev] A friendly reminder: Ciaran McCreesh is not a Gentoo dev

[George Prowse]

On 22/06/2012 07:40, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 23:01:15 +0200
Michał Górny  wrote:

Just a short note as it seems some confusion arises lately:

Ciaran McCreesh is not a Gentoo dev and his words don't represent
the position of Gentoo development team.


Right. Doesn't that make me more important than you?

https://lwn.net/Articles/501815/



To Exherbo? Probably

Re: [gentoo-dev] SpanKY's Nominations for the Gentoo Council 2007

[George Prowse]

On 05/07/06, Curtis Napier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Saturday 01 July 2006 02:46, Mike Frysinger wrote:
>> well it's about that time of the year ... time for nominating
>> people for the next Gentoo Council
>
> i guess i'll start off some mass nominations of random people off the top of
> my head who i think would do a good job ... there's a bunch more people i
> think would do a good job, but i'm going to cut my list short as it's already
> ridiculously long ...
>
> from current council:
> koon / agriffis / azarah / seemant / solar
>
> some other peeps:
> Kugelfang / Ramereth / Mr_Bones / spb / plasmaroo / Weeve / `Kumba /
> jaervosz / KingTaco / Flameeyes / dostrow / dsd / kito / exg
>
> i'd also nominate g2boojum, but i kind of like his current unofficial role as
> honorary council adviser guy ...
> -mike

Two names I see missing from this (otherwise very good) list are Chris
Gianelloni (wolf31o2) and Donnie Berkholz (spyderous aka dberkholz). I
think everyone knows exactly how much work these two put into Gentoo and
how valuable that contribution is. Their knowledge would be a great
addition to the council.



W00t! council nominations!!!

wolf31o2
plasmaroo
dsd
johnm
uberlord
vapier
pauldv jr
pauldv snr
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Off with your heads!

[George Prowse]

On 09/07/06, Daniel Gryniewicz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Thu, 2006-07-06 at 20:46 -0600, Steve Dibb wrote:
> @devs,
>
> If your blog is being aggregated on Planet Gentoo / Universe, it's time to 
send
> us a copy of your smiling face.  I'm putting out a request for some
> hackergotchis.  Really, you don't want just a few of us to have all the fun, 
do you?
>

Here's mine.

Daniel


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.4-ecc0.1.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQBEsUpeomPajV0RnrERAua3AJsEph/EP9EWa977KpeZVnkrz/wYeQCdFajI
l2+K9sqkqkMkzTifNf4D4EU=
=nIE2
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Could we have a localised one like Gnome as well?

http://www.uk.gnome.org/planet/
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Future developer

[George Prowse]

On 30/06/06, Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I'm proud to announce the arival of a future developer. His name is "Tom". He
arived last monday on 10:22 am (UTC+02). I and my wife will take care of
mentoring him to full developership ;-).

In the meantime, he's got his own album on
http://www.cs.ru.nl/~pauldv/tom/

Paul

ps. If I'm a bit away these days, it is due to me being preoccupied with my
mentoring task.

--
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net



I forgot to say that you could call your daughter Jennifer because you
could name her "Jen two".

George
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Funding from Gentoo UK 2006 event

[George Prowse]

On 25/07/06, Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 05:34:31PM +0100, Stuart Herbert wrote:
> Dunno about other folks, but I'd be very happy to see us return to the
> Resource Centre once more.  I thought that it worked well as a venue,
> and that London is the right place to hold the conference.

Resource Centre was fine, maybe i'll manage to stop by next year too.

I think the good financial outcome is George's fault, he forced me to
donate 3 pounds. Someone make sure it goes into $MY_PROJECT ;-)

cheers,
Wernfried

--
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org




Yeah, we didn't accept that funny money from the continent either :p

Stuart expressed an interest about organising it with me but if he is
leaving then I can do it myself.

I thought the location was ideal and if (like uberlord says) they have
bigger rooms I would like to book one. Personally I would like to book
it as soon as possible so people have lots of time to sort everything
out. Ideally i would like to sort it within the next month because i
seem to have committed myself to 3 projects and a girlfriend which
tends to mean i have no time, no money and no ability to think for
myself anymore.

Perhaps this time I will get some people actually responding to some
questions this time

George
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Funding from Gentoo UK 2006 event

[George Prowse]

On 25/07/06, Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 10:04:17AM -0700, Joshua Jackson wrote:
> hmm, that returned nothing *hides the cash in my pocket* guess you
> didn't define the project, and your loss is my gain ;)

Ooops - well, just don't spend it all at once.

cheers,
Wernfried

--
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org




(i recieved a fetchmail error so i dont know if this was recieved)

Yeah, we didn't accept that funny money from the continent either :p

Stuart expressed an interest about organising it with me but if he is
leaving then I can do it myself.

I thought the location was ideal and if (like uberlord says) they have
bigger rooms I would like to book one. Personally I would like to book
it as soon as possible so people have lots of time to sort everything
out. Ideally i would like to sort it within the next month because i
seem to have committed myself to 3 projects and a girlfriend which
tends to mean i have no time, no money and no ability to think for
myself anymore.

Perhaps this time I will get some people actually responding to some
questions this time
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] New(-ish) developer - Elfyn McBratney

[George Prowse]

On 07/08/06, Christel Dahlskjaer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It is my pleasure to introduce to you... the artist formerly known as...
beu! Many will know Elfyn from his previous stint as a Gentoo developer.
This time around, we have a understanding.. the sort that involves
sleeping with fish and finding horseheads in your bed. Capish? He won't
magically (well, I believe it was by magic, he is afterall an elf)
disappear again and will be joining the kernel guys, the perl people and
he'll be donning an apron and pink marigolds while helping out with the
QA tree cleaner project.

I of course am thrilled, not only did we (re-)gain another UK based dev,
but a UK based dev with a great taste in music, a sick and twisted mind
and the ability to put up with me singing. Welcome back, Elfyn!

Christelxx
--
$a="gentoo.org"; Christel Dahlskjaer | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.$a
Gentoo Developeress - User Relations, Developer Relations, Gentoo/MIPS,
Gentoo/Alpha, PR, Events, Release Engineering


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list



Kneel in the presence of the dark master beuster, for the once apache
guru has mutated and become master of perl and kernel and shall we
reach forth or forever hold our peace.

Thankyou
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] New Forums Staff : jmbsvicetto

[George Prowse]

On 20/08/06, Mark Kowarsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Please welcome our latest forums staff, Jorge Vicetto aka jmbsvicetto.
>

/me hugs Jorge.  Glad to have you on board.

Mark




All we need now is to find out how to pronounce your name 
George
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Why you use Gentoo

[George Prowse]

On 10/09/06, Ryan Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So, wondering why people use Gentoo.  Put [dev] or something if
> you're an actual gentoo dev and [user] if you're a user.  Doesn't
> need to be fancy, you can put "community" or something if that's all
> you want.  All responses off list please.  Thanks.

I use Gentoo because of its intelligent user community that reads
messages all the way through and actually understands simple directions
like "all responses off list" before firing off their knee-jerk canned
fanboy responses, especially when they're repeated three times.

--de.

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list



There is a 10 page thread about this on the forums

George
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Last rites for www-apps/drupal

[George Prowse]

On 11/09/06, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:01:02 -0400 Alec Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Stuart Herbert wrote:
| > On 9/11/06, Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| >> Uhm, web-apps has been CCed on the bug since the beginning. Last
| >> time I asked, noone wanted to touch the FUBARed ebuild, IIRC. :)
| >
| > The package was masked without Christel (on behalf of QA) posting an
| > advance warning of their actions.  That's not trying to work
| > together. It's not trying to work with existing teams.
|
| So file a complaint; once again the -dev list shouldn't be for
| complaining about how people {suck,don't follow policy}

Now why does it not surprise me that you of all people are encouraging
people to complain about Christel? Is there something you'd like to get
out in the open?

--
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org




+1 troll point ciaranm
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New Developer: Tristan Heaven (nyhm)

[George Prowse]

Oh goodie another person who just likes to "act like a developer" but
really wants to just play games like Wolf. *wink* Welcome aboard
Tristan enjoy being a slave to the people now MUAHHAHAHAHAHAH.


Heh, i can vouch for nyhm... he spends far too much time playing on
IRC and doing nothing to be playing games all day :D

George
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN

[George Prowse]

Lionel Bouton wrote:

Hi, I just had an unpleasant experience with -ffast-math and GCC 4.1.1
(it borked my LDAP authentication on several systems which worked with
the same CFLAGS as long as GCC 3.4.6 was used).

There is a lot of material out there about CFLAGS and Gentoo (google
returns 387000 pages) but what's working for someone might not for
another. There are flags that work for a GCC version and most ebuilds
and don't work with another GCC version (my unfortunate experience) or
some ebuilds. Flag combination/architecture/LDFLAGS might be an issue too.

There are already good resources (http://gentoo-wiki.com/CFLAGS_matrix
was mentioned to me by robbat2) but they may not be advertised enough.
I'd like to propose a paragraph to the GWN editor which presents some
gotchas and good references on the subject.

Here's a draft for review. You're welcomed to expand on the subject.

--- Draft BEGIN ---

CFLAGS



Being able to tune the CFLAGS is part of one of the core principles of
Gentoo: let the user be in control. Being in control brings both
benefits and problems and CFLAGS tuning is not an exception.


The recent upgrade to gcc-4.1.1 for x86 and amd64 users changed the
landscape. Users that spent some time tuning their CFLAGS with gcc-3.4.6
might find out that an upgrade to gcc-4.1.1 leaves them with an unstable
system. Example of this are :

nss_ldap stopped working with -ffast-math
...



Users with unsupported CFLAGS (see the CFLAGS matrix for
example) might want to return to safe CFLAGS (see Safe CFLAGS) if recent
updates caused them stability problems. On the other hand, more
adventurous users might want to experiment with CFLAGS that didn't work
properly with gcc-3.4.6... As always, the user is in control.



--- Draft END ---

If possible, I'd like to expand the list of 3.4.6 -> 4.1.1 upgrade
problems which are linked to experimental CFLAGS. If you want to expand
the subject to cover other tuning/stability gotchas that recent updates
might have brought into the light, please feel free to do so. As English
is not my native tongue, feel free to spell check too.

Cheers,

Lionel.
  
I agree in principle because it would stop people using stupid CFLAGS. 
It should have an information section and a "use this CFLAG and dont ask 
us for help" section:



Good Compiler Flag


-floop-optimize
Enables safe loop optimisation and is enabled in most -O$


Bad Compiler flag


Sets |-fno-math-errno|, |-funsafe-math-optimizations|,
|-fno-trapping-math|, |-ffinite-math-only|, |-fno-rounding-math| and 
|-fno-signaling-nans|


Used to speed up math functions but causes major b0rkage because it can 
result in incorrect output for programs which depend on an exact 
implementation of IEEE or ISO rules/specifications for math functions.


Use this and dont bother asking for help.

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New Devrel Subproject: Gentoo Devmatch

[George Prowse]

Dan Meltzer wrote:

How much would gentoo make in a ciaran vs. devrel fight?



I want to see results on my money though! I dont want to have to wait a 
year like last time!


George
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New Devrel Subproject: Gentoo Devmatch

[George Prowse]

Elfyn McBratney wrote:

On 23/10/06, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:55:15 +0100 "Stuart Herbert"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On 10/23/06, Caleb Cushing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > >
| > >  Weapons allowed?
| >
| > melee weapons only, maybe?
|
| Guns for show; knives for a pro.

Who told you that? Reuben?


I didn't know Reuben was in Press Gang...


Press Gang-bang perhaps?
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Package Removal

[George Prowse]

A user has stated this in a thread. Could someone respond please?

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-510146.html

"I suggest that the devs don't hard mask packages, especially ones 
depended on by several other ebuilds, until notice has been given in the 
GWN's pending package removal section. If proper notice were given, then 
there would be much less user outrage when they suddenly can't update 
their systems after syncing their portage tree."

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Package Removal

[George Prowse]

Dan Meltzer wrote:

I think you gave the wrong forum link :)

On 10/23/06, George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

A user has stated this in a thread. Could someone respond please?

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-510146.html

"I suggest that the devs don't hard mask packages, especially ones
depended on by several other ebuilds, until notice has been given in the
GWN's pending package removal section. If proper notice were given, then
there would be much less user outrage when they suddenly can't update
their systems after syncing their portage tree."
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list




I'm really sorry, that was me tidying up some forum spam *oops*

Here is the proper one: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-510130.html

Apologies once again.

George
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: remove my address

[George Prowse]

Mike Frysinger wrote:

On Wednesday 25 October 2006 01:53, Drake Wyrm wrote:

I think someone is yanking your chain, vapier.


i doubt it ... other people on irc mentioned receiving said e-mail as well



Haven't seen said email here...

George
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GNOME 1.x and GNOME 1.x dependent package masking

[George Prowse]

Seemant Kulleen wrote:

Saleem & Gnome Team,

I think it's high time this was done.  My suggestion would be to
publicise this *beyond* just the gentoo-dev list.  I would put this on
-user and in the forums (and one of you should probably blog before the
fact as well).

Thanks,


Agreed. Can the original poster please add it (*especially* the package 
list) to the User Representative's forum please or say on here if you 
would like me to do it.


This would need an announcement by the admins also.

George
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Versioning the tree

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:01:11 + "Stuart Herbert"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On 11/29/06, Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > As of this release, I kept a copy of all of the distfiles for the
| > entire release, and can make a DVD of it, on request.  This
| > fulfills our requirements with the GPL.
| 
| What are the arrangements should you go under a bus on the way home

| from work tonight?

George and Reuben get a visit from the local police department.


Hahahahaha.

How would they narrow it down to us though ;)
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Big change ideea/Fix Gmail

[George Prowse]

Neil Bothwick wrote:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 00:11:29 +0200, Alexandru Mincu wrote:


I sent this earlier and it wasn't received so I resend it now...


It was received, but you didn't see it because you are using GMail, which
treated it as a duplicate of the mail you'd sent.


I have to ask, is there a way to stop this action because it is very 
annoying.


George
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Big change ideea/Fix Gmail

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:17:23 +1100 George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| I have to ask, is there a way to stop this action because it is very 
| annoying.


Don't use GMail?

If only other annoying things were so easy to fix...


tell me about it
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Re: [gentoo-dev] The long story behind our new developer: Peter Weller (welp)

[George Prowse]

Markus Ullmann wrote:

...

Welcome welp, hopefully I wont have to ssh install for you anymore... ;)

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Ideas for projects...

[George Prowse]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

The Gentoo Council is looking for some ideas for some small projects
that we could initiate that would help Gentoo.  These project ideas
should be things that are attainable in a measurable amount of time, and
should be fairly small in scope.  This would be in the same vein as the
Google Summer of Code projects.  Robin Johnson came up with a good
example, which was "genflags" an application that was to gather
information from the running system and spit out a customized set of
C(XX)FLAGS for the user.

Submit your ideas here, so we can discuss them.  I will be choosing one
idea that we think we can accomplish to test out the idea of
Council-driven projects.

Thanks in advance!

  
RSS feeds for packages added and removed from the tree with potential 
support for external overlays?


I can see a file like debian's sources.list for the external ones with 
the addresses like this:


#Add external overlay addresses here:
http://dev.gentooexperimental.org/pkgcore-trac
http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/mysql/
http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/java/


George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Slacker archs

[George Prowse]

Bryan Østergaard wrote:

On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 11:46:32AM +0100, Francesco Riosa wrote:

  

Ciaran McCreesh ha scritto:


It is widely perceived that Gentoo has a huge problem with slacker
archs cluttering up the tree and making maintainers' work harder.
Clearly, something needs to be done about this.
  
It's even more perceived that there are a couple of satellite people who 
are working very strongly and sometimes (sadly) successfully to create 
an un-healty environment for developers and users. Personally I would 
mention you Caranm, beu and geoman.


Please stop the personal attacks. They serve absolutely no purpose other
than poisoning the developer community further.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard
  

if the shoes fit, wear them
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Introducing Daniel Robbins (drobbins)

[George Prowse]

Daniel Robbins wrote:

Hey all, and thanks for the welcome back. It was a bit strange to find
old stuff from 2005 in my dev.gentoo.org homedir. Sort of like a time
capsule :)

-Daniel


Get it in the tree quickly!!!

Anyway, good to see you back mate.

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Introducing the Proctors - Draft Code of Conduct for Gentoo

[George Prowse]

Christel Dahlskjaer wrote:
Hiya all, 


As some of you are already aware, I was at the last Council meeting
given a Task. This Task was to draft a proposed Code of Conduct for
Gentoo, and a scheme for enforcing it. The current version of this
proposal can be found at http://dev.gentoo.org/~christel/coc.xml
comments and suggestions both on- and off-list are appreciated.

Any input will have to be received by Thursday, 15 March, 1200GMT in
order to be useful; the Council will be voting on it later that day at
2100UTC.

I would like to thank a few people for their help in getting it to this
stage: the council for review, spb for translating Christelsk into
English (with the help of the OED), nightmorph for making it look
prettier than plain text in vim (without a fancy colourscheme), and
marienz for being sane and reading it over. 


I'd also like to thank our Infrastructure team for working with us and
answering questions regarding the mechanics of enforcing such a code.

Christelx

  
Having lots of experience in this I feel I can bring some constructive 
criticism here.


It is written in a manner that has no direction. It is far too tentative 
and as such comes over as suggestions rather than a set of rules that 
one has to adhere to. The language should be changed so that /these are 
the rules and these are the consequences/ For example: "Acceptable 
behaviour: Things that we do want to see" should be changed to something 
like "This is what Gentoo considers to be acceptable. Any posts not 
adhering to this will subject to deletion and poster may be subject to 
removal from the subsequent information channel."


It is necessary for everyone to know exactly where they stand because 
any ambiguity can be used by those who wish to disrupt and so far that 
has caused many users and developers to leave.


If you want an example see the rules I made for the userreps forum. If 
you need any help, contact me.


George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Introducing the Proctors - Draft Code of Conduct for Gentoo

[George Prowse]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 16:00 +0100, Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen wrote:
  

Uhh, no.  This gets enforced on devs and users alike.
  
I wouldn't bring it up in the first place, but we've had previous examples 
with devs calling other devs not so kind things and to my knowledge it didn't 
result in any action. I seem to remember a rather active dev taking it not so 
lightly, resulting in one less dev and no action from Devrel/Council.



What exactly do previous examples have to do with us saying that our
past efforts didn't work and our trying to come up with a *new* way of
doing these things to not repeat past problems/mistakes?

Let me just clarify this.

We don't care how things were done in the past.  We are looking
*forward* and trying to come up with the best solution from here on out.

  

I look at anything with a gentoo.org address as our house.  While some
might disagree with this statement, I'm pretty sure this is the stance
we're taking on it.
  

So this doesn't apply to the Gentoo IRC channels?



*sigh*

I wasn't aware that I would have to spell out everything.  How about
this, then?

EVERYTHING with gentoo.org or #gentoo-* in it?  Is that good enough?

(Looking forward to the day when we don't have to be so damned pedantic
in everything that we write.)

  

I would like to point you #4 in the CoC draft - "*Being judgmental,
mean-spirited or insulting.* It is possible to challenge someone
(respectfully, of course), in a way that empowers without being
judgemental."

;) George


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

[George Prowse]

Ferris McCormick wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:30:32 -0500
Steev Klimaszewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:



Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else
could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a
group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others
have informed us all.


Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again)
as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and
flameeyes' stated reason for leaving...

  



It was an ultimatum.  He goes or I go, it was not blackmail.  FFS, can 
we please stop calling it blackmail?



As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called
it blackmail.  Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an
ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed.
So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a 
worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite 
your face.


It's good to see it has only taken 3 or is it 4 or 5 devs to leave 
before anyone thinks about doing something.


George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why I don't think the CoC is a good idea

[George Prowse]

Luca Barbato wrote:

Alexandre Buisse wrote:
  

I'm sorry to have been so long (and I have a lot more to say!) but this
is more or less why I think both the idea and its proposed
implementation are bad and will ultimately hurt us.



I do agree and I add that this current thread so far is a good example
on how things could go:

- it is long since there are many arguments touched (CoC, improving
gentoo, directions and our weak points etc)
- it touches also some questions that aren't that easy
- nobody has been offensive (yet)

lu

  
I have no idea if it's possible but if a topic is deemed to be off topic 
then can any further replies with that subject be forwarded 
automatically to another address like gentoo-dev-offtopic so they dont 
go to gentoo-dev?


George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo's problems

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

That's just it. Portage needs to deliver major visible improvements at
the user level for Gentoo to get anywhere. Managing a Gentoo system is
much harder now than it was a few years ago, but the tools are largely
the same.
  
What on earth is going to be a "major visible improvement" to a command 
line based package manager that any average Gentoo user is going to 
realise? The average user probably only uses a few commands: emerge 
-u/p/a/v/--sync/package/world/system and then use 
package.keywords/mask/unmask so there are really no fundamental 
differences that the average user will notice


And that really means that portage is no easier/harder than it was 3 
years ago when USE="~x86" emerge foo was consigned to the dustbin
  

* The wrong idea of what the user base is, and what the target user
base is. Gentoo's direction is too heavily influenced by a small
number of extremely noisy ricer forum users, many of whom don't
even run Gentoo. Unfortunately, this self-perpetuating clique
wields huge amounts of influence.
  

I was certain that Gentoo's direction was influenced by the people
working on Gentoo; not ricers.  Do you have any examples of when the
ricers changed the direction of things in Gentoo.



Sunrise is the canonical example. Also consider the way the forums are
being run (like it or not, the forums are taken by many to be
representative of Gentoo's user base)...
  
It seems to most that the forums is the only part of Gentoo that is - 
and always has been - running smoothly

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

[George Prowse]

Stephen Bennett wrote:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:35:14 +
George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  

So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise
a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to
spite your face.



I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to get rid
of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them.
  
You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee leave 
and let the employee in question know that it will not be tolerated in 
the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the best employees 
(and with it money) and also said employee knows /exactly/ where he 
stands for the future.


It is called man-management and people skills, something that is 
severely lacking in Gentoo at the moment

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo's problems

[George Prowse]

Caleb Cushing wrote:


What on earth is going to be a "major visible improvement" to a
command
line based package manager that any average Gentoo user is going to
realise? The average user probably only uses a few commands: emerge
-u/p/a/v/--sync/package/world/system and then use
package.keywords/mask/unmask so there are really no fundamental
differences that the average user will notice


How about the speed of search's? the speed of resolving dependancy's? 
how about the speed that it takes to calculate a dependancy listing 
after you've already done it once? portage is SLOW.

So speed...

how about getting it to the point where it could be made to 
incorporate a graphical frontend if wanted.
There are loads, i can name 3 off the top of my head, new ones are 
always popping up in unsupported software in the forums as well.


how about providing me a list of packages that are masked instead of 
making me read and unmask them one at a time.

That pretty much defeats the object of them being masked in the first place

So all you can really come up with is speed? If a power user yourself 
can only come up with speed what is an ordinary user going to think 
of... *sigh*


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

[George Prowse]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:30:11 + George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  

I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to
get rid of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them.
  
  

You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee
leave and let the employee in question know that it will not be
tolerated in the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the
best employees (and with it money) and also said employee
knows /exactly/ where he stands for the future.



And if said employee had already pulled several "I'm resigning"
publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other
people trying the same thing unsuccessfully?
  
Then you deal with them at such a time as they appear, you do not let 2 
employees go when everyone's integrity could have been kept with just 
the one leaving - therein lies the skill in 'people skills'

I think you're missing a clear view of the facts here...

Incidentally, I'm unsure as to how your analogy applies here. You keep
mentioning 'best employee'. I'm not sure how that fits in.
If i remember, I said "one of" and also (if i remember correctly) 
flameeyes happened to be head of two herds, a member of the council, had 
more cia commits than any developer and was one of THE most respected 
developers in the whole of Gentoo.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why I don't think the CoC is a good idea

[George Prowse]

Caleb Cushing wrote:


I have no idea if it's possible but if a topic is deemed to be off
topic
then can any further replies with that subject be forwarded
automatically to another address like gentoo-dev-offtopic so they dont
go to gentoo-dev?


I believe you can change the destination based on subject with an mta. 
the question is what does implementing this entail? and being that a 
subject might be re-used in a completely unrelated (to the original 
topic) or be put back on topic how do you decide when to  remove the 
forward.


I think that you would probably just change the subject and tell people. 
A big ascii note saying REPLY TO THIS IN -DEV would do it.


I dunno, it's just a suggestion
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