[gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring
Peter Faraday Weller posted 1241642515.3120.16.ca...@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Wed, 06 May 2009 21:41:54 +0100: >> Maybe dead projects are cleaned like treecleaners ? > > This actually sounds like a pretty good idea, and one that I might > actually be interested in. > > Someone working within such a project would have to be in close > communication with most/all of the team leads within Gentoo. I feel that > this would be a better solution than asking for (semi-)regular updates > from the teams - having someone to have a chat with the team lead is > much less formal and more relaxed way of ensuring that things are well. > If it seems that the project is having problems staying alive, a call > for help could be put out. If there is no improvement, the project could > be referred to the Gentoo Council to see if it should be > removed/abolished, otherwise... > > Opinions/ideas welpcome! Hmm... and said person/project might do well to be in close contact with the council (maybe even /on/ the council) as well... which fits in rather nicely with the council election season coming up... Talking about which, those considering running for council may wish to pay special attention to the current series of project status updates as well, with an eye toward any actions that may be needed to help out particular projects, and/or revive/close/merge others. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
[gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring
Sergio D. RodrÃguez Inclan posted f01ff58b0905050926o74ddf373l85a1c49a6a32...@mail.gmail.com, excerpted below, on Tue, 05 May 2009 12:26:23 -0400: > Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see > what is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help. Actually, the various project leads do tend to do this once or twice a year, with most projects following the leader after someone starts it, posting status to the dev list, at least. It /is/ about time for another round I think, but I hope whoever decides to start it starts it as a new thread, not attached to this one. So project leads? Who wants to be first? =:^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
[gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring
Ferris McCormick posted 20090504114734.30329...@anaconda.krait.us, excerpted below, on Mon, 04 May 2009 11:47:34 +: > For what it's worth (probably not much) I think Foundation is > functioning now. At least, we are legal again, have bylaws, and a real > bank account. I should have stated so directly, but FWIW I agree. I'm on the NFP list as I have been since 2004 (when I started with Gentoo), so I know the general status. I did say I thought that was the low point and that Gentoo had turned the corner since then, but given that I DID list it as a low point, it would have been only proper to specifically mention that I think it has come back from the brink (which it was over, but you guys pulled it back! =:^) too. So thanks for pointing that out, and thanks too, to you and the other foundation folks, for all the time and effort you've put into pulling it back from over the brink, as you have. That's no small thing, even if by original design the foundation is separated enough from the day-to-day and technical Gentoo side that it seldom comes up here or in most other Gentoo discussions, and few enough even know about it, let alone stop to say thanks once in awhile. It's certainly not every dev (or user, as I am) that either has the skills for that sort of thing, or even cares about it, so the least we can do is give you a round of thanks for taking on what most of us would prefer not even to have to think about at all. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring
On Sun, 3 May 2009 18:51:59 -0400 Duncan <1i5t5.dun...@cox.net> wrote: > Peter Faraday Weller posted > 1241385973.4028.67.ca...@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Sun, > 03 May 2009 22:26:13 +0100: > > > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more > > likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming > > nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. > > > > I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper > > leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree > > needs to be sorted out: we have >16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, > > not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do > > *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using > > a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how > > they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. > > FWIW, from my perspective, Gentoo has turned the corner, we've hit the > low point (which I'd put at when the foundation dissolved due to malaise) > and things are beginning to improve now. Certainly there's a lot of work > remaining to be done and nobody's perfect, but I really do see positive > changes this last year or so. > For what it's worth (probably not much) I think Foundation is functioning now. At least, we are legal again, have bylaws, and a real bank account. > The council is actually somewhat functional now again, no more multi-hour > meetings that get little if anything accomplished. Gentoo worked thru > the foundation and council crises. I don't do IRC so can't evaluate it, > but certainly, the lists have gotten rather more professional the last > while -- no more severe personal attacks, and when it starts heading that > way, often both sides get warnings to "stop it" and people do (tho this > of course doesn't mean there's not disagreements, only that they're kept > to something approaching a reasonable professional level). > > Yes, Gentoo is still using CVS, but there are moves toward something > else, with GIT seemingly the lead candidate. While I don't see it > getting to that point in the remaining bit of the current council term, I > hope that it's a major item on the agenda for the next council to deal > with. The overlay structure seems to be quite active and is continuing > toward better overall integration, with issues like overlay and eclass > priority and sharing being worked out. > > Now Gentoo does seem to be at that "magic" 250-ish person mid-size > organizational cap, has been there for some time, and hasn't seemed to > get past it. OTOH, few organizations do tend to get past that, Debian > being the commonly mentioned FLOSS community exception, so Gentoo isn't > alone in that regard. In fact, there's many organizations that would > LOVE to be dealing with that problem as long as Gentoo has been. Maybe > we'll ultimately get past it, maybe we won't and we'll just have to learn > to manage at the 250-ish size we are. > > Perhaps the biggest mark of improvement for me personally has been that > (as I recently hinted in a post to the docs list) I'm actually thinking > about becoming a dev again. For some months, I had lost the motivation > and reasons I might wish to do so, but now it's back. I'm certainly > grateful for the folks that stuck around thru the bottom, and yes, that > IS a marked improvement I'm glad to see. =:^) > > So anyway, we seem to disagree on what's happening with Gentoo, but I > really do see improvement, and think it's a shame to have people leaving > for the lack of it, just as things from my perspective seem to be turning > around. But, regardless of whether you choose to stay or go, and that's > of course a decision you must make (recognizing that people do sometimes > need a time away, ideally to return refreshed and revitalized, ready to > take on new challenges), you did say you may be back if you see that some > of these issues have been addressed. Based on that, if indeed the > changes I am beginning to see continue, plan on that return, 'cause those > changes are coming. =:^) > > -- > Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. > "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- > and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman > > Regards, Probably should not have responded, Ferris -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring
Peter Faraday Weller posted 1241385973.4028.67.ca...@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Sun, 03 May 2009 22:26:13 +0100: > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more > likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming > nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. > > I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper > leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree > needs to be sorted out: we have >16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, > not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do > *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using > a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how > they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. FWIW, from my perspective, Gentoo has turned the corner, we've hit the low point (which I'd put at when the foundation dissolved due to malaise) and things are beginning to improve now. Certainly there's a lot of work remaining to be done and nobody's perfect, but I really do see positive changes this last year or so. The council is actually somewhat functional now again, no more multi-hour meetings that get little if anything accomplished. Gentoo worked thru the foundation and council crises. I don't do IRC so can't evaluate it, but certainly, the lists have gotten rather more professional the last while -- no more severe personal attacks, and when it starts heading that way, often both sides get warnings to "stop it" and people do (tho this of course doesn't mean there's not disagreements, only that they're kept to something approaching a reasonable professional level). Yes, Gentoo is still using CVS, but there are moves toward something else, with GIT seemingly the lead candidate. While I don't see it getting to that point in the remaining bit of the current council term, I hope that it's a major item on the agenda for the next council to deal with. The overlay structure seems to be quite active and is continuing toward better overall integration, with issues like overlay and eclass priority and sharing being worked out. Now Gentoo does seem to be at that "magic" 250-ish person mid-size organizational cap, has been there for some time, and hasn't seemed to get past it. OTOH, few organizations do tend to get past that, Debian being the commonly mentioned FLOSS community exception, so Gentoo isn't alone in that regard. In fact, there's many organizations that would LOVE to be dealing with that problem as long as Gentoo has been. Maybe we'll ultimately get past it, maybe we won't and we'll just have to learn to manage at the 250-ish size we are. Perhaps the biggest mark of improvement for me personally has been that (as I recently hinted in a post to the docs list) I'm actually thinking about becoming a dev again. For some months, I had lost the motivation and reasons I might wish to do so, but now it's back. I'm certainly grateful for the folks that stuck around thru the bottom, and yes, that IS a marked improvement I'm glad to see. =:^) So anyway, we seem to disagree on what's happening with Gentoo, but I really do see improvement, and think it's a shame to have people leaving for the lack of it, just as things from my perspective seem to be turning around. But, regardless of whether you choose to stay or go, and that's of course a decision you must make (recognizing that people do sometimes need a time away, ideally to return refreshed and revitalized, ready to take on new challenges), you did say you may be back if you see that some of these issues have been addressed. Based on that, if indeed the changes I am beginning to see continue, plan on that return, 'cause those changes are coming. =:^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
