Please stay on-topic. (was: Re: Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting])

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016, 15:08:17 schrieb james:
> On 12/07/2016 04:39 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:01:53PM -0500, james wrote:
> >> Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
> >> Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the
> >> discussion?
> > 
> > Please DO subscribe.
> 
> Nope. I strongly believe that if your wider dev community had a deeper
> understanding of the responsibility chain...


Even if I'm repeating myself... Please keep the mailing lists on topic. 

While the topics of gentoo-project are widespread, conspiracy theories and US 
politics are definitely not on-topic here. 

Also, to confirm what robbat2 suggested, Gentoo Foundation organizational 
questions including how to deal with the IRS (should that even be discussed on 
a publicly archived list?) find their best audience on the nfp list.

After all, whoever wants to participate can subscribe there, and whoever 
doesn't subscribe there probably doesn't *want* to hear about it.

- -- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfri...@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

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Re: Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting]

[james]

On 12/07/2016 04:39 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:01:53PM -0500, james wrote:

Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the discussion?

Please DO subscribe.


Nope. I strongly believe that if your wider dev community had a deeper 
understanding of the responsibility chain, gentoo would not be in such a 
mess. These juvenile beliefs and behaviors your dev teams routinely 
display, can be used against the organization, if IRS agents so desire.
It'd be a trivial occurrence for the IRS to reclassify gentoo to 
something other than a charity. Any a. h. can profit by being a snitch 
to the IRS. If you doubt this, find an old/mean/retired IRS agent to 
audit gentoo. A CPA will lie to you, legally. Cause when you make 
mistakes and get audited (can be easily triggered by a pal of the CPA 
you go to), that just means more 'billable hours' for the CPA. They'll 
bleed gentoo dry and participate with the IRS in going after companies 
that have used gentoo for their own gain. When you give to a charity, 
there is suppose to be a 'hands off' what the charity does with the 
gift, otherwise it's a corporate tax-dodge in the eyes of the IRS.

GSoC is a poster child for this problem.


How's that tech relationship with the tech industry and the trump team 
looking these days?  Go read about about what Obama did to the 501(c) 
charities circa the 2012 election cycle. Pense was the ring leader in 
working behind close doors to defund the IRS to calm that one sided

assault on 501(c) organization down.   Read the tea leaves, brah.



The results of what you have discovered, desperately needs to be shared 
with your devs, so they can begin to develop wisdom and culture their 
attitudes into a recognized charity organization, which is what Gentoo 
purports to be. My prayers are with you, brother. Furthermore, the real 
risk is some starving lawyer goes after one of any of the companies that 
have previously been generous to gentoo first attacking gentoo.
It's a dominoes legal strategy and works all the time in the court 
systems. Ignorance of the law and shoddy records puts gentoo squarely in 
the "guilty but pleading for judicial mercy" category. The problem is 
these sorts of lawyers do not need Trump or Pense to do their bidding. 
They earn lots of money churning up 501(c) and many others.



For example some layers have made millions and millions of dollars off 
of suing all sorts of organizations for failure to comply with laws 
related to the disability act. Things like designated parking spots and 
wheelchair ramps. 501(c) and governmental agencies have all been sued as 
such too.  So if a potential dev is OCD, or otherwise has psychological 
disabilities, what is the gentoo strategy to be charitable to them?



Hell, our devs run off folks that are well qualified, due to the clique 
and the standard dev  assimilated trite behaviors. If once they see the 
power, of the dark side, and first hand witness the devastation the IRS 
can bring, they'll all understand and become wise; but at a tremendous 
price.You catching the drift here? I sure hope so.




The long response I just sent is significantly off-topic for the -dev
list. It may be almost on-topic for the -project list, but certainly not
-dev.


I could not disagree more, but that's your choice.



The council agenda this month includes getting more off-topic stuff out
of -project, so keeping the lists to their intended function should be
done.


You devs are at the heart of the problem; you need to remove your 
blinders and learn from what has happened. Repent and turn Gentoo into 
the wonderful charity it should be. Remove the collective a. h. and 
their behaviors, asap. Set standard and put violators on probation

just like is routine for new devs. Authority alwayhs comes with a price.
Think of it this way, Gentoo is under the microscope and these 
revelations should have a profound effect on the leadership, asap. 
Failure to be wise in leadership, is not going to work as a defense in a 
court of law. Let's hope (and pray) it does not come down to that.




At least a quick link for folk, who are interested can read what is
discussed via the list? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in
our goals and management infrastructures.

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/ca4fd8c98b9649bb060d48b466927c82



A fine work; thanks for your commitments. I've been here 14 years. This 
is not a problem of anyone's making. It a problem of a lack of 
leadership which is due to a lack of wisdom. Now you and the Council and 
the Foundation are in the positions of leadership; so LEAD.



A word of advise: Document all of the discrepancies you can, since you 
are now involved as a fiduciary with gentoo. Do not hide any of them. 
Publish them and beg all for help. gnucash-user is full of help. FREE 
help. USE it!


California has to have at least one 

Re: Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting]

[Robin H. Johnson]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:01:53PM -0500, james wrote:
> Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
> Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the discussion?
Please DO subscribe.

The long response I just sent is significantly off-topic for the -dev
list. It may be almost on-topic for the -project list, but certainly not
-dev.

The council agenda this month includes getting more off-topic stuff out
of -project, so keeping the lists to their intended function should be
done.

> At least a quick link for folk, who are interested can read what is
> discussed via the list? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in
> our goals and management infrastructures.
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/message/ca4fd8c98b9649bb060d48b466927c82

For a slightly older piece, also see the talk I gave about the
Foundation, at this year's Gentoo miniconference:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLICDJo0onMRJFwAD3V7KGZWgnkxQaELeh

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robb...@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136


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Re: Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting]

[james]

On 12/07/2016 03:02 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:

I'm going to respond to this thread on the NFP list.



Hey Robin,


Can you cross post to gentoo-dev? I'm not subscribed to that list.
Should not a wider community, particularly devs be part of the discussion?

At least a quick link for folk, who are interested can read what is
discussed via the list? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in
our goals and management infrastructures.


James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting

[james]

On 12/07/2016 01:53 PM, Jigme Datse Rasku wrote:

I have been using LedgerSMB as when I was looking everything except
SQL-Ledger (which got forked to LedgerSMB) was either too expensive
(commercial, and a lot didn't run on Linux) or more pain than writing in
a ledger book (easier to screw up, and harder to remember what I was
doing anyway).

As I haven't looked at options for ages, due to feeling LedgerSMB
continues to be a good fit (I switched to them soon after the fork), and
mostly fails for me in terms of multiple features I don't really need,
or so far haven't even found a use case that works for me, but many over
time which I thought I wouldn't use, I do now.  don't need to, but it works.

I expressed recently that *if* they created a "only new code" version
which only had basic accounting features, I could, and would work with
it, if that worked mostly like that is currently working.

For me, as the interface (web based) is a huge plus over anything I
looked at in the past.

On Dec 7, 2016 10:32, "james" > wrote:



Hey Jigme,

I think gentoo is under a social contract limits our use options to
FOSS accounting packages. Perhaps someone more knowledgable with itemize 
the restrictions gentoo is under for it's 501(c)3 needs.



Here's a shocker from an IRS doc::

"The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of 
private interests" [1] That basically is a very general statement, open 
to vast interpretation; whether it's a problem for gentoo, remains to be 
seen.


I think someone more knowledgeable than myself should post the 
restrictions and guidance document reference, if any, that constrain and 
guide gentoo in matter of GAAP, 501(c)3 and it foundational 
organization, before an accounting packages is agreed up. Perhaps this 
just a good idea to vet


 how these critical charity records are maintained and disseminated. 
Some states may have additional statues and rules.   The corporation 
papers were filed in Maryland, right? If not, what state where the 
papers filed in?



[1] 
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-section-501-c-3-organizations




hth,
James

Thread moving to -nfp LIST [Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting]

[Robin H. Johnson]

I'm going to respond to this thread on the NFP list.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robb...@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting

[Jigme Datse Rasku]

I have been using LedgerSMB as when I was looking everything except
SQL-Ledger (which got forked to LedgerSMB) was either too expensive
(commercial, and a lot didn't run on Linux) or more pain than writing in a
ledger book (easier to screw up, and harder to remember what I was doing
anyway).

As I haven't looked at options for ages, due to feeling LedgerSMB continues
to be a good fit (I switched to them soon after the fork), and mostly fails
for me in terms of multiple features I don't really need, or so far haven't
even found a use case that works for me, but many over time which I thought
I wouldn't use, I do now.  don't need to, but it works.

I expressed recently that *if* they created a "only new code" version which
only had basic accounting features, I could, and would work with it, if
that worked mostly like that is currently working.

For me, as the interface (web based) is a huge plus over anything I looked
at in the past.

On Dec 7, 2016 10:32, "james"  wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
> There was some discussion before about the software used for gentoo the
> charity (501)(c). It seems to have perked up a bit of discussion on
> gnucash, where all of the posting I have read suggest that gnucash is a
> wonderful accounting system for  charity organizations. There also appears
> to be lots of experience and help to. I thought this issue need a separate
> thread on gentoo-dev, a robust decision, and a team based solution, if  not
> a council item.
>
> Here is the latest posting I have received on the 501(c) subject matter,
> I thought I share and formally open up a discussion on the subject:
>
>
>
> Here's my original post::
>
> Hello gnucash users.
>
> I use gnucash for my small business, for years and I'm quite happy with
> it. Recently, I was ask if Gnucash has as good of support for 501(c)3
> non-profits as does ledger (www.ledger-cli.org)?
>
> Any and all comments are warmly received.
>
> James
> 
>
> The the most recent reply:
>
> >
> > [1] http://www.ledger-cli.org/
>
> I regard cli accounting as a friend of GnuCash rather than the
> competition, there isn't anything one can do that the other can't in
> accounting terms, also notice that cli accounting is becoming less so as
> time passes, there are UIs and SQL type reports and so on being added
> all the time, the principle is that compared to commercial products you
> can, if you really want to, see a stream of transactions in ordinary ABC
> and 123 terms, gnc can be dumped to cli and vice versa.
>
> I'm not saying you or someone else should choose one or the other, I'm
> asking you to thunk which is most likely to get people keeping good
> records for the benefit of their non-profit.  I know that for one
> non-profit I help out with a basic cli would be a non-starter, no UI and
> the tx simply wouldn't get entered.
>
> > [2] http://www.accountingcoach.com/nonprofit-accounting/explanation/1
>
> worth reading, note the bits about restricted funds, that is what people
> that are familiar with for-profit orgs usually struggle with conceptually
>
> > [3] https://sfconservancy.org/npoacct/
>
> that's been updated since I read it last but seems to be more face lift
> than new content
>
> James, you've got some good links there but don't actually say what the
> imperatives for your correspondent are.
>
> I, and I am sure others, are happy to espouse GnuCash, *if we think it
> is right* for your org.  I don't have enough to go on.  There is little
> harm in trying it, however, as it is easy enough to get your tx in and
> out if cli accounting is your alternative.
>
> Happy helping and non-profiteering (if that is even a concept in merka
> post Trump)
> --
> Wm
>
> 
> .
>
>
> Surely our code of conduct, evidence by principled and publish documents
> and the records of expenditures over the years, are quintessential
> documents and should experience governance in the sunshine, or no?
>
> hth,
> James
>
>

[gentoo-dev] Gentooo 501(c) accounting

[james]

Hello,


There was some discussion before about the software used for gentoo the 
charity (501)(c). It seems to have perked up a bit of discussion on 
gnucash, where all of the posting I have read suggest that gnucash is a 
wonderful accounting system for  charity organizations. There also 
appears to be lots of experience and help to. I thought this issue need 
a separate thread on gentoo-dev, a robust decision, and a team based 
solution, if  not a council item.


Here is the latest posting I have received on the 501(c) subject matter,
I thought I share and formally open up a discussion on the subject:



Here's my original post::

Hello gnucash users.

I use gnucash for my small business, for years and I'm quite happy with 
it. Recently, I was ask if Gnucash has as good of support for 501(c)3

non-profits as does ledger (www.ledger-cli.org)?

Any and all comments are warmly received.

James


The the most recent reply:

>
> [1] http://www.ledger-cli.org/

I regard cli accounting as a friend of GnuCash rather than the
competition, there isn't anything one can do that the other can't in
accounting terms, also notice that cli accounting is becoming less so as
time passes, there are UIs and SQL type reports and so on being added
all the time, the principle is that compared to commercial products you
can, if you really want to, see a stream of transactions in ordinary ABC
and 123 terms, gnc can be dumped to cli and vice versa.

I'm not saying you or someone else should choose one or the other, I'm
asking you to thunk which is most likely to get people keeping good
records for the benefit of their non-profit.  I know that for one
non-profit I help out with a basic cli would be a non-starter, no UI and
the tx simply wouldn't get entered.

> [2] http://www.accountingcoach.com/nonprofit-accounting/explanation/1

worth reading, note the bits about restricted funds, that is what people
that are familiar with for-profit orgs usually struggle with conceptually

> [3] https://sfconservancy.org/npoacct/

that's been updated since I read it last but seems to be more face lift
than new content

James, you've got some good links there but don't actually say what the
imperatives for your correspondent are.

I, and I am sure others, are happy to espouse GnuCash, *if we think it
is right* for your org.  I don't have enough to go on.  There is little
harm in trying it, however, as it is easy enough to get your tx in and
out if cli accounting is your alternative.

Happy helping and non-profiteering (if that is even a concept in merka
post Trump)
--
Wm

.


Surely our code of conduct, evidence by principled and publish documents 
and the records of expenditures over the years, are quintessential 
documents and should experience governance in the sunshine, or no?


hth,
James