Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
It seems like at least kdeedu, kdegames, kdepim kdetoys wouldn't leave me missing really obvious stuff, at least from the names. It would seem that kdeadmin, kdebase, kdebase-pam, kdelibs, kdemultimedia possibly kdeutils would be keepers. The rest I don't have an uneducated opinion on. ;-) These are the monolithic ebuilds, kdepim for example contains kmail, kontact and quite a few others. Use the split ebuilds to merge just what you need. It's a little confusing because the split and monolithic ebuilds are all in the same category, kde-base. How does the removal of such modules occur if one uses the split ebuilds, surely it becomes that much more difficult? (93 messages later, come on all this and we dont hit 100?) -- Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical) Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:49:37 +0200, Ryan Viljoen wrote: These are the monolithic ebuilds, kdepim for example contains kmail, kontact and quite a few others. Use the split ebuilds to merge just what you need. It's a little confusing because the split and monolithic ebuilds are all in the same category, kde-base. How does the removal of such modules occur if one uses the split ebuilds, surely it becomes that much more difficult? Do you mean removing all of KDE? qpkg -g kde-base | xargs emerge -C If you mean removing individual KDE components, that's easy with the split ebuilds. -- Neil Bothwick There was a young man from the border Who had an attention disorder. When he reached the last line He would run out of time And signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Paul S. Bains wrote: You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc space. Well, the code _can_ be loaded, without being executed, and therefore taking up RAM. -Kristian Poul Herkild -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Paul S. Bains wrote: You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc space. That's not correct. It offers the potential of being executed and thus, it offers the potential of being a security threat. Thus it is better to NOT have the code around at all. Alexander Skwar -- You see but you do not observe. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, in The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
All right, my turn to congratulate KDE on doing such a fine job. --rant arg=slight-- I have been using Linux (Gentoo at that) for over 6 yrs. During that time I have tried Gnome, KDE, and XFCE off and on. After spending some time with each (2-3 weeks) I would always go back to a plain window manager (Openbox or FVWM). For the last 2yrs I had been using FVWM and had went to a lot of work to get my desktop completely customized to how I liked it, then KDE 3.5 came out and I decided to give it a shot, especially since I had been doing some reading about KDE 4 and was totally amazed by Plasma and how they are planning on interfacing with DBUS / HAL. I must say combining the easy configurability of KDE and the unbloatfullness of split ebuilds. KDE is now just about perfect for me, my only 2 complaints that I have so far (1 being Amarok and not KDE) are I wish KDE 3.5 was a little faster but that should get fixed with 4.x and I wish that Amarok handled Podcasts with more flexibility and allowed me to create playlists and such automaticlaly on my iPod (problem solved by not using Amarok and using bashpodder / gnupod). KDE has been a great experience and I can see why Linus prefers it over Gnome (I used to enjoy Gnome more than KDE). This all being said I am very excited to see what KDE dev's come up with next (maybe a good Arts successor). --/rant-- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Uncompiled code is not loaded into ram because it is only text. The exception is when you are editing it..! Unless I've been compiling all these years for no reason...:) Code must actually be compiled into a binary and called in one way or another to be loaded into ram. If you mean compiled, unused code can be loaded into ram, that is correct, but there is nothing the user can do about that - it's a function of the application: not all compiled code gets ran at a given time, because perhaps not all functions are being utilized at any given moment - depends on the program. On 01/22/06 03:47:12, Kristian Poul Herkild wrote: Paul S. Bains wrote: You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc space. Well, the code _can_ be loaded, without being executed, and therefore taking up RAM. -Kristian Poul Herkild -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Perhaps I misunderstood the poster - unused, uncompiled code cannot be loaded into RAM, unless you editing it. Unused compiled code can, but that is beyond the realm of the user. If the developer has functions that are not ever being used, then that's the developer's fault. On 01/22/06 03:55:00, Alexander Skwar wrote: Paul S. Bains wrote: You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc space. That's not correct. It offers the potential of being executed and thus, it offers the potential of being a security threat. Thus it is better to NOT have the code around at all. Alexander Skwar -- You see but you do not observe. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, in The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
I forgot interpreted code - maybe that's what the original poster meant. I am used to only working with compiled binaries only. On 01/22/06 08:47:38, Paul S. Bains wrote: Perhaps I misunderstood the poster - unused, uncompiled code cannot be loaded into RAM, unless you editing it. Unused compiled code can, but that is beyond the realm of the user. If the developer has functions that are not ever being used, then that's the developer's fault. On 01/22/06 03:55:00, Alexander Skwar wrote: Paul S. Bains wrote: You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc space. That's not correct. It offers the potential of being executed and thus, it offers the potential of being a security threat. Thus it is better to NOT have the code around at all. Alexander Skwar -- You see but you do not observe. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, in The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 1/22/06, Paul S. Bains [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uncompiled code is not loaded into ram because it is only text. The exception is when you are editing it..! Unless I've been compiling all these years for no reason...:) Code must actually be compiled into a binary and called in one way or another to be loaded into ram. If you mean compiled, unused code can be loaded into ram, that is correct, but there is nothing the user can do about that - it's a function of the application: not all compiled code gets ran at a given time, because perhaps not all functions are being utilized at any given moment - depends on the program. On 01/22/06 03:47:12, Kristian Poul Herkild wrote: Paul S. Bains wrote: You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc space. Well, the code _can_ be loaded, without being executed, and therefore taking up RAM. -Kristian Poul Herkild In the time this thread has been going I managed to compile and start KDE for the first time in years. (I'm a Gnome user mostly) My impressions: 1) It seems HUGE. Menus full of so many apps 2) It appears to be very configurable. 3) It seemed to run nicely in most cases. 4) It crashed X on my P4HT machine when exiting. Gnome was running ina first login. I started a new session from xscreensaver's New Login button and chose KDE. When exiting KDE I couldn't get back to xscreensaver or a console. Logging in remotely and restarting xdm didn't help. I had to do a complete shutdown -h now. 5) I have not tried it with Jack to see if it would hurt my audio work, but it might be OK for my wife and son on a day to day basis. Unfortunately I wouldn't know the answers to their configuration questions and it might be more trouble than it's worth. (To me...) Not sure I have the stomach to keep something this large up to date. I couldn't find kde-light, as I'm a Gnome-light user mostly. Cheers, Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Paul S. Bains wrote: Perhaps I misunderstood the poster - unused, uncompiled code cannot be loaded into RAM, unless you editing it. Yep. Unused compiled code can, but that is beyond the realm of the user. No, it's not. IIRC, this thread at some point of time was about setting USE flags. With USE flags, the user can control what gets compiled and what not. If the developer has functions that are not ever being used, then that's the developer's fault. Or the packagers, for not proving enought options of what gets installed. Alexander Skwar -- The nice thing about Windows is - It does not just crash, it displays a dialog box and lets you press 'OK' first. (Arno Schaefer's .sig) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:57:17 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: Not sure I have the stomach to keep something this large up to date. emerge -uavDN world Keeping KDE up to date is no more or less effort than keeping GNOME up to date. -- Neil Bothwick WinErr 00F: Unexplained error - Please tell us how this happened signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 1/22/06, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:57:17 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: Not sure I have the stomach to keep something this large up to date. emerge -uavDN world Keeping KDE up to date is no more or less effort than keeping GNOME up to date. -- Neil Bothwick Certainly no more effort, but it seems that it's possibly much more compute time which would get in the way of me running real time audio on my machines. For my wife and son's machines it's a non-issue. I'd let them choose which they prefer, with the caveat that should they have a problem with somethign I'm not running they are a bit more on their own. No big deal. Is there no 'kde-light' to get me the environment without all the zillions of apps, etc.? Thanks Neil! cheers, Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sunday 22 January 2006 16:57, Mark Knecht wrote: Is there no 'kde-light' to get me the environment without all the zillions of apps, etc.? Yes, with kde split ebuilds it's actually possible to build a light kde system. Just emerge kdebase-startkde and build from there adding the apps you need (usually, kicker, konsole and konqueror are enough to give you an usable desktop, but I must admit that the notion of usable is very subjective; anyway, I hope you get the idea). In fact, you can have a functional kde desktop by installing no more than 20-30 applications among the zillions you mentioned before :) HTH -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sunday 22 January 2006 17:38, Derek Tracy wrote: wish that Amarok handled Podcasts with more flexibility and allowed me to create playlists and such automaticlaly on my iPod (problem solved by not using Amarok and using bashpodder / gnupod). Check back with amaroK 1.4 and you will have that feature :) KDE has been a great experience and I can see why Linus prefers it over Gnome (I used to enjoy Gnome more than KDE). This all being said I am very excited to see what KDE dev's come up with next (maybe a good Arts successor). The will probably be dropping aRts in KDE 4 -- Regards, Abhay pgpdXJvPpiuga.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:57:15 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: Keeping KDE up to date is no more or less effort than keeping GNOME up to date. Certainly no more effort, but it seems that it's possibly much more compute time which would get in the way of me running real time audio on my machines. Not since the introduction of the split ebuilds. It was true with the monolithic ebuilds that updating one program required you to rebuilds a large chunk of KDE, but that's no longer the case. If anything, I expect it is much less work for the computer than a similar update for GNOME, because the KDE packages are much more fine-grained now. -- Neil Bothwick Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 22 January 2006 19:35, Abhay Kedia wrote: The will probably be dropping aRts in KDE 4 Make that certainly. Arts is dead. Uwe -- Unix is sexy: who | grep -i blonde | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount sleep -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sunday 22 January 2006 20:05, Uwe Thiem wrote: On 22 January 2006 19:35, Abhay Kedia wrote: The will probably be dropping aRts in KDE 4 Make that certainly. Arts is dead. Where are we having the wake. I'll chip in for a few beers, I'd like to make sure its properly buried. -- Big Tone -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 1/22/06, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:57:15 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: Keeping KDE up to date is no more or less effort than keeping GNOME up to date. Certainly no more effort, but it seems that it's possibly much more compute time which would get in the way of me running real time audio on my machines. Not since the introduction of the split ebuilds. It was true with the monolithic ebuilds that updating one program required you to rebuilds a large chunk of KDE, but that's no longer the case. If anything, I expect it is much less work for the computer than a similar update for GNOME, because the KDE packages are much more fine-grained now. -- Neil Bothwick Good info. Thanks. I was sort of amazed (on the downside) that a couple of packages, like kdepim, took a huge amount of time. I *think* I wouldn't have this installed so it wouldn't be an issue. I suppose I need to look at all the KDE packages to determine what might be a reasonable subset to use. Assuming I did equesry correctly I get this right now: lightning ~ # equery -i list kde [ Searching for package 'kde' in all categories among: ] * installed packages [I--] [ ] kde-base/kde-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kde-env-3-r4 (0) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdeaddons-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdeadmin-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdeartwork-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdebase-3.4.3-r1 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdebase-pam-6 (0) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdeedu-3.4.3-r10 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdegames-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdegraphics-3.4.3-r3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdelibs-3.4.3-r1 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdemultimedia-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdenetwork-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdepim-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdetoys-3.4.3 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdeutils-3.4.3-r1 (3.4) [I--] [ ] kde-base/kdewebdev-3.4.3-r1 (3.4) lightning ~ # It seems like at least kdeedu, kdegames, kdepim kdetoys wouldn't leave me missing really obvious stuff, at least from the names. It would seem that kdeadmin, kdebase, kdebase-pam, kdelibs, kdemultimedia possibly kdeutils would be keepers. The rest I don't have an uneducated opinion on. ;-) Thanks for your help! Cheers, Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sat, Jan 21, 2006 at 12:56:47AM +0100, Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: On Saturday 21 January 2006 00:44, Alan E. Davis wrote: May I ask others' experiences with e17? I just wasted my holiday installing e17 on two of three machines. It is smaller than Kde, but background is 20% of cpu . Buggy. Beautiful. A PITA to configure, and menus suck. I don't think I'll be there long. I liked enlightenment .16 except I guess I really do need icons to remind me of what I've got on the system, and good menus. that was exactly how I felt. All the problems to get it installed, and than it was such a bad thing to configureuse, that I deinstalled it some days later. I used earlier enlightenment incarnations as my main desktop for some time, back, when KDE 2.X was dead slow, but when KDE 3 came out, enlightenment lost its appeal. That's a bit unfair on e17, given that it's still pre-release software. It is indeed buggy at the moment (though I should add I haven't had any problems with more recent CVS installations), but that's to be expected in a pre-release, and you're warned about it in big red letters when you emerge it. It is also a PITA to configure at the moment, but graphical menu managers, keybinding editors, icon creaters, desktop icons, etc. are planned before the release version, and every CVS checkout seems to add more graphical configuration options at the moment, and reduce the number of times I resort to the enlightenment-remote shell command. Finally, on my ancient Pentium2 450, it uses 2-3% of cpu. In fact, I find it more responsive than e16. So I'm not sure where the 20% comes from. Maybe you've enabled lots of the processor intensive eye-candy, like animated backgrounds or the snow or flames modules? Or you just need to update to a more recent CVS release. Without wishing to start a flame war, it's unfair to the developers to give the impression that their software doesn't work very well without at least mentioning it's pre-release (and therefore not expected to!). And really, criticising it at all for being buggy and lacking features is a little unfair. If you're not prepared to put up with some rough edges, wait for the official release version. Just to put in a good word for e17 to balance the discussion... Personally, I prefer enlightenment to KDE or gnome because I don't like the whole integrated desktop approach. I prefer my window manager to manage windows, and leave me free to run whichever apps I like. My ideal window manager has nothing at all on the desktop (except maybe a wallpaper to gaze at when nothing's running), no gizmos taking up desktop real-estate, an easy way to run my most frequently used apps and some way to get at any others I might need occasionally, some way to navigate between running apps, and as much as possible of this should be manageable from the keyboard (with completely configurable keybindings). If it does all this and looks beautiful at the same time, so much the better! I find that, of the traditional window managers, enlightenment comes closest to this ideal (though I admit I've never tried FLuxbox or IceWM - I stopped looking when I found I was happy with enlightenment). Since a lot of e17 features are written as modules, I can choose not to load (or often not to install) them, so only those features I want take up disc space and memory (it's the gentoo way!). For instance, I don't bother loading e17's start menu. (what's the point when I have ibar and keybindings to run the apps I use most, and the run dialogue for the rest?). But it's there for those who want it. E17 has completely configurable keybindings, even if they're a pain to configure at the moment, and the enlightenment-remote command line...err...command is fantastic for getting shell scripts to interact with the window manager. If you've read all that, you'll not be surprised I also like ratpoison ;-) But I haven't used it long enough to get used to it yet. And I've not got beyond installing ion yet. Window managers are very much a personal choice, and there is no right decision, except try out a few and decide for yourself. Which means it's worth at least being aware that there are plenty of other choices apart from KDE and gnome, if you're not happy with them (unlike a certain other OS, where there's not even a single alternative ;) Toby -- PhD Student Quantum Information Theory group Max Planck Institute for Quantum Optics Garching, Germany email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.dr-qubit.org -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:12:09 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: It seems like at least kdeedu, kdegames, kdepim kdetoys wouldn't leave me missing really obvious stuff, at least from the names. It would seem that kdeadmin, kdebase, kdebase-pam, kdelibs, kdemultimedia possibly kdeutils would be keepers. The rest I don't have an uneducated opinion on. ;-) These are the monolithic ebuilds, kdepim for example contains kmail, kontact and quite a few others. Use the split ebuilds to merge just what you need. It's a little confusing because the split and monolithic ebuilds are all in the same category, kde-base. -- Neil Bothwick ... Veni, Vidi, Visa - I came, I saw, I charged it. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
It's nice of you to give me so detailed explanation! I think I would like to use gnome for long time ^_^ Thank you very much 50 mails later, 5 flame wars and just for that... I do believe it would of been easier to give each of them a test yourself to see what you prefer. KDE, Fluxbox, Gnome, et al. Bleh! -- Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical) Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:06:09 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: That may be true, but it assumes that I want a Desktop Environment in the first place, which I don't, particularly. Then why are you participating in a discussion about which of the two complete Desktop environments is best? ;-) As you don't want a DE, you actually have more choice than those that do, since there are so many minimal environments that you can build up yourself, compared with the two major pre-built environments. -- Neil Bothwick Use Colgate toothpaste or end up with teeth like a Ferengi. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
b.n. schreef: I'm just writing it for the sake of curiosity, so no flaming is here. Just because some answer sound quite sarcastic, but that's just a style thing to get it short. :) Yes, but you then have bloat (because Konqueror contains web browsing features that you are not using, therefore the code is unnecessary for you, but nonetheless present). [...] Code, code, code. Bloat (for me). [...] Fine, I can turn them off, but again, there is then a whole lot of backend code for a feature that I do not want in the first place and know I don't want. Ehm. Perhaps it's me being dense but: who cares about unused code? Ok, you have unnecessary, unused code sitting on your HD: where's the problem? You never see it. If I wanted unused and unneccessary code sitting on my PC, I'd use a binary distribution. Why do I bother with disabling USE flags to not compile code that is unnecessary for me, if I didn't care about such things? On the rare occasions that I compile Mozilla (becoming less and less necessary, thank goodness), I compile it +moznomail, +mozcompose, +moznoirc, and -mozcalendar because I don't use those features in Mozilla, so why should I wait for them to be compiled? But I can't trim Konq down to be just a file manager (or browser, depending on which function I hypothetically like Konq to perform and which I prefer to use another application to perform). And of course, maybe I don't have so much HDD space that I want some portion of it to be used by applications that have extra functions that are unused, when that space could be used by applications that do things I *do* want. I have to then spend time finding out how to disable it or avoid installing it. It's quite odd you obviously had spent the (worthwile but not instantaneous) time to learn Linux, install Gentoo etc. but then you can't type emerge --unmerge kmix. Well I would if I liked KDE (and on the occasions that I have installed KDE, I've done that), but I've already objected to this idea that it's OK to install a whole complex and then have to go through it again with a fine-toothed comb to edit it down to something manageable. Fine if you don't mind working that way, but I do. I can't even understand what do you mean here. If you don't want icons, don't put them on the desktop. It's that simple. You have to do *nothing* to avoid icons on your desktop! The (presumably) default setting (since I've never touched it, and it is checked in kcontrol) is Show icons on desktop. There are then two additional tabs for kinds of icons that you can enable or disable (for file types and drives). But if you don't actively link things on the desktop, *nothing* appears on your desktop!! That's not the point, which is where we have a failure to communicate. Openbox and FVWM-crystal (and ICEwm, for that matter) are lighter, faster desktops than KDE partially because they do not contain the code to put icons on the desktop (whether I enable it in KDE or not). If I suddenly change my mind and want icons on my desktop, I have to install idesk or something. That's the way (unh-huh, unh-huh) I *like* it. If I want an application to perform a function that I want or need, then I install it. If I don't want or need the functionality, it *is not present*. I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to specify Window Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right now). Ok, that's a good point. However that 6 tabs are more probably than not a wrapper to a plain text config file, that you can configure with your favourite editor all at once. Code for a gui function that I'm not using if I'm just editing the base text file anyway. ? Same as before. If I'm going to be editing the text file, all I need is nano (which I already have). So the code to create, manipulate and draw those tabs and their functions in the KDE control center is unnecessary. But developers have spent time to write it, and debug it, testers have spent time testing it, and I've spent time compiling it... and they've all wasted that time with respect to me, because I'm not using it, I'm just editing the text file in nano (which I already had). So for all of me, they could have done something else with that time (like make the code modular, so if I didn't want it, I could disable it with a USE flag or something, or of course, not include it at all, since I find Devilspie works just fine to control my windows if I need to do that for some reason, or just tell me where the text file is and how to edit it, like the FVWM man pages do, so I use the internal settings to control my windows if I want, but don't have a whole GUI that I find unnecessary to do so). Yes they work fine, but they look like poop unless you jump through some hoops to integrate them with the look of your KDE desktop. This may involve installing additional applications (gtk-chtheme or gtk-engine-qt), or editing a text file (if you need to
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Alan E. Davis wrote: But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face---you can't do links with them. With Konq you can: hold Ctrl+Shift while dragging and dropping a file. (But that's only symlinks, and surely you wish to do hard links too. :) Benno -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
AybOwan! Argument doesn't allow truth to come out -Load Buddha- so no matter all are opensources, let them to think... On 1/21/06, Benno Schulenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alan E. Davis wrote: But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face---you can't do links with them. With Konq you can: hold Ctrl+Shift while dragging and dropping a file. (But that's only symlinks, and surely you wish to do hard links too. :) Benno -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- ... The future lies ahead. ___ Have you mooed today? \^__^ \ (oo) \___ (__) \ )\/\ | |-w | | || | 2.6.15-gentoo-r1-sinhalese-jan201 (((o)))~--~--~-- Proud to be a Sinhalese. SINHALESE ARE GENIUSES OF IRRIGATION http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~sydney/sinhales.htm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
If I wanted unused and unneccessary code sitting on my PC, I'd use a binary distribution. Why do I bother with disabling USE flags to not compile code that is unnecessary for me, if I didn't care about such things? On the rare occasions that I compile Mozilla (becoming less and less necessary, thank goodness), I compile it +moznomail, +mozcompose, +moznoirc, and -mozcalendar because I don't use those features in Mozilla, so why should I wait for them to be compiled? But I can't trim Konq down to be just a file manager (or browser, depending on which function I hypothetically like Konq to perform and which I prefer to use another application to perform). Ok, good point. And of course, maybe I don't have so much HDD space that I want some portion of it to be used by applications that have extra functions that are unused, when that space could be used by applications that do things I *do* want. Good point #2. That's not the point, which is where we have a failure to communicate. Openbox and FVWM-crystal (and ICEwm, for that matter) are lighter, faster desktops than KDE partially because they do not contain the code to put icons on the desktop (whether I enable it in KDE or not). If I suddenly change my mind and want icons on my desktop, I have to install idesk or something. That's the way (unh-huh, unh-huh) I *like* it. If I want an application to perform a function that I want or need, then I install it. If I don't want or need the functionality, it *is not present*. Ok, so -let me know if I understand- you strive for an approach of full modularity, where each little component can be added or removed at will. That's actually interesting. I don't know if KDE for example already allows this (emerging kdebase only gives you almost no functionality AFAIK) or if it's going forward this. 2)GTK apps look different from KDE apps. So what? gmplayer or xpdf aren't similar to both. What's so bad in them being different? A lot of people care about this, both users and developers; It's a little issue known as User Interface Consistency, which people seem to find very important for new and/or inexperienced users (for experienced users it's more of an ongoing annoyance than a show-stopper, I think). Certainly programs exist to resolve that, both KDE and GNOME developers spend time migrating to the freedesktop.org standard to resolve that and users ask questions on this and other forums asking how to resolve at least the presenting visual issues. Yes,I know. I know a consistent desktop experience would (perhaps) be better, I just don't find it annoying. It interrupts the seamless flow of your task, and people object to that to a greater or lesser degree, depending on how much interruption they can support before the task becomes unperformable, or more difficult to perform than the task is worth. Hmmm. Not for me. I just know how to use the GTK/Gnome file save dialog, and the KDE save dialog. I seamlessly use both (although I much prefer the latter). I don't feel my tasks to be interrupted by this. Perhaps that's just my luck :). m. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 1/20/06, Linux Java [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's nice of you to give me so detailed explanation! I think I would like to use gnome for long time ^_^ Thank you very much Some advice for etiquette on this list: 1. Don't top post. 2. _DON'T_ post html messages 3. Learn to trim the message you are replying to. -Richard -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
KDE and GNOME, from a user perspective, are about identical, except that KDE has a couple more bells and whistles. Now, if you're hacking code, it comes down to which windowing API you want to use. Of course, the user has the libraries for all of the popular ones loaded anyway, so, again, it doesn't matter much. I think that more distributions come with KDE set as the default, so, probably KDE just based on that, unless Solaris has a much larger user base than I think that it does. Sun is moving to (has moved to?) GNOME, and sent out notices to all of their developers (I developed a few Solaris apps a couple years ago) saying jump to gtk+. Justin On 1/20/06, Linux Java [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. -- Justin W. Hart -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Saturday 21 January 2006 05:36, Holly Bostick wrote: That may be true, but it assumes that I want a Desktop Environment in the first place, which I don't, particularly. Ermm...if you don't want a Desktop Environment then why install K Desktop Environment in the first place and then why get into a discussion related to Desktop Environments anyways? As I said, after finding even GNOME too heavy, I switched to Openbox 3, which basically presents *no* working environment, and now use fvwm-crystal, which presents a relatively minimal one, certainly by comparison to KDE. Openbox is a Window Manager so it is not *supposed* to present any working environment. fvwm-crystal also makes choices for you, like installing a panel and wallpapers for you. It is inherent quality for a DE to make choices and install stuff for you so as to present an already working environment. If it is not doing this...it is not a DE. But I simply don't like DEs. If I'm going to spend time fine-tuning my desktop, I want exactly what I want, exactly the way I like it, not as close to how I like it as the DE supports. That's why I use build-it-yourself WMs like OB3 and FVWM. Before you entered into this discussion, you should have understood the difference between WMs and DEs. You are comparing apples with oranges. How smart it is? I will leave you to decide :) -- Regards, Abhay pgp1v0Kt5iAzd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 1/21/06, Justin Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: KDE and GNOME, from a user perspective, are about identical, except that KDE has a couple more bells and whistles. Not true from _this_ users's perspective. -Richard -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 21 January 2006 16:50, Holly Bostick wrote: That's not the point, which is where we have a failure to communicate. Openbox and FVWM-crystal (and ICEwm, for that matter) are lighter, faster desktops than KDE partially because they do not contain the code to put icons on the desktop (whether I enable it in KDE or not). Unused code does *not* slow down an application. It's just, well, ... unused. ;-) If I suddenly change my mind and want icons on my desktop, I have to install idesk or something. That's the way (unh-huh, unh-huh) I *like* it. If I want an application to perform a function that I want or need, then I install it. If I don't want or need the functionality, it *is not present*. Frankly, I don't believe you. Some other part in your post indicates you use nano as an editor. Are you seriously claiming you have *ever* used all features (all the code) of nano? How about -p? Or -l? Is the corresponding code excluded from your nano? How about all the features (all the code) of cp? How about -l, --parents and -x, ever used them? If not so, is the corresponding code excluded from your cp? I won't even start to talk about tar of bash. I see that you use Thunderbird as your MTU. Does it support authenticating to the MTA when sending mail? Do you use that? Does it suport both POP3 and IMAP? Do you use both? Is the unused code excluded from your Thunderbird? Almost no user will use all code in any non-trivial application (and yes, cp is non-trivial). What are developers to do about it? Make cp modular so that a user can decide at compile time what features they will use five month from now? Even a very small text-only linux installation contains a couple of hundred executables. You got to be kidding! [ snip ] A lot of people care about this, both users and developers; It's a little issue known as User Interface Consistency, which people seem to find very important for new and/or inexperienced users (for experienced users it's more of an ongoing annoyance than a show-stopper, I think). Certainly programs exist to resolve that, both KDE and GNOME developers spend time migrating to the freedesktop.org standard to resolve that and users ask questions on this and other forums asking how to resolve at least the presenting visual issues. Myself, I generally try to solve the issue by sticking to one toolset, but that is not always possible. And it is annoying... if I use Krusader, and want to show hidden files in my home folder, the command or menu item to do that is in a different place than where it is in Nautilus or another GTK-toolset file manager or file browser for open/save dialogs. That means I have to *stop what I'm actually doing* (viewing my files) and think about which fm I'm using and remember that this one does it this way (as opposed to the one I usually use) and then go back to what I'm doing. It interrupts the seamless flow of your task, and people object to that to a greater or lesser degree, depending on how much interruption they can support before the task becomes unperformable, or more difficult to perform than the task is worth. These two paragraphs, of course, are very good, though not all, arguments *for* DEs. As a computer user (and software developer), I go back to the famous ZX-81 when it was new. (Those who do not know it google for it!) Nonetheless, consistent menus, dialogues, ... speed me up in using applications - especially apps I don't use that often. I do admit that KDE hasn't reached that goal completely yet. For example, some applications show Configure This-app as the first entry under Settings, others as the last one. I am pretty sure similar examples can be found in the GNOME world. Still, both DEs are far better in this regard than any wild mix of xpdf, xterm, OpenOffice, GIMP, xmms and 700 other UIs. Uwe -- Unix is sexy: who | grep -i blonde | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount sleep -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 21 January 2006 16:50, Holly Bostick wrote: So for all of me, they could have done something else with that time (like make the code modular, so if I didn't want it, I could disable it with a USE flag or something, Forgot this in my other mail: When I looked last time, konqueror contained not one single line of code for rendering HTML, jpeg, gif, text or anything else. It uses other applications for that. Pretty modular and slick, huh? Uwe -- Unix is sexy: who | grep -i blonde | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount sleep -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Hi, I have only one question: how do you deal with the data-eating bugs, nautilus is known for? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:07:06 +, Justin Hart wrote: KDE and GNOME, from a user perspective, are about identical, If that were true, it would be impossible to start a DE flamewar among users. PS vi and emacs are the same :) -- Neil Bothwick WinErr 020: Error recording error codes - Additional errors will be lost. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Saturday 21 January 2006 14:46, a tiny voice compelled Neil Bothwick to write: PS vi and emacs are the same OH MY GOD NO! Not that again. -- Regards, Ernie -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sunday 22 January 2006 00:02, Ernie Schroder wrote: On Saturday 21 January 2006 14:46, a tiny voice compelled Neil Bothwick to write: PS vi and emacs are the same OH MY GOD NO! Not that again. why not? he is correct. Both were made to drive their users crazy. vi with stupid 'modes' and even more stupid command keys. emacs by grabbing all system ressources, 'funny' bugs and 'interessting' 'enhancements'. Oh, and it is written in lisp. So, fundamentally, they are the same. Vile creatures made to torture humans. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sat, Jan 21, 2006 at 04:48:24AM +, b.n. wrote Ehm. Perhaps it's me being dense but: who cares about unused code? Ok, you have unnecessary, unused code sitting on your HD: where's the problem? You never see it. A year ago, I was using a 1999 Dell (128 megs RAM, 450 mhz PIII) as my main machine. I still have it around as my emergency backup. KDE runs (would you believe crawls) painfully slowly on that machine. Using blackbox plus fbpanel, it's perfectly OK for most stuff, except that it drops frames on internet TV and working with 2560x1920 digital photos in Gimp is leisurely. On my AMDK8, in 32-bit mode, it screams. Old DOS games run faster under DOSBOX than they did on a 10 mhz AT. I have the original floppies for Chessmaster 3000. It does *NOT* run under Wine. At work, they were throwing out some old stuff, including real Windows 3.1 floppies. I installed Win3.2 under DOSBOX, and it runs Chessmaster 3000 just fine! -- Walter Dnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
You are not being dense - unused code does nothing but take up disc space. On 01/21/06 19:34:02, Walter Dnes wrote: On Sat, Jan 21, 2006 at 04:48:24AM +, b.n. wrote Ehm. Perhaps it's me being dense but: who cares about unused code? Ok, you have unnecessary, unused code sitting on your HD: where's the problem? You never see it. A year ago, I was using a 1999 Dell (128 megs RAM, 450 mhz PIII) as my main machine. I still have it around as my emergency backup. KDE runs (would you believe crawls) painfully slowly on that machine. Using blackbox plus fbpanel, it's perfectly OK for most stuff, except that it drops frames on internet TV and working with 2560x1920 digital photos in Gimp is leisurely. On my AMDK8, in 32-bit mode, it screams. Old DOS games run faster under DOSBOX than they did on a 10 mhz AT. I have the original floppies for Chessmaster 3000. It does *NOT* run under Wine. At work, they were throwing out some old stuff, including real Windows 3.1 floppies. I installed Win3.2 under DOSBOX, and it runs Chessmaster 3000 just fine! -- Walter Dnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sat, 2006-01-21 at 11:05 -0700, Richard Fish wrote: Some advice for etiquette on this list: 1. Don't top post. 2. _DON'T_ post html messages 3. Learn to trim the message you are replying to. -Richard Thank you for your advice! -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 07:17 -0700, Richard Fish wrote: On 1/20/06, Linux Java [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Linus recommends you use KDE. http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html Don't take me wrong, i really respect Linus and appreaciate what he did, but i don't care a damn second about the dektop environment he prefers because this is mostly a matter of tase. I use gnome because i like gnomes simplistic approach, because i like evolution, nautilus, totem, the gnome terminal, gtk+ and especially gtkmm (c++ api for gtk+ - qt folks should really take a look at it) and lot's of great gtk+ based programs like inkscape, gimp, gvim, beep-media-player, ... But the really great thing is that there are lot's of desktop environments and/or window-managers out there and everybody can make it's own choice. Matthias -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Walter Dnes wrote: A year ago, I was using a 1999 Dell (128 megs RAM, 450 mhz PIII) as my main machine. I still have it around as my emergency backup. KDE runs (would you believe crawls) painfully slowly on that machine. Using blackbox plus fbpanel, it's perfectly OK for most stuff, except that it drops frames on internet TV and working with 2560x1920 digital photos in Gimp is leisurely. On my AMDK8, in 32-bit mode, it screams. I have ran a old 400MHz machine with 128MBs of ram before. If you can get some more ram in there, it will run a lot faster. It is the ram more than the CPU that is holding you back speed wise. I put in another 128MBs and the speed was about three times faster. I had the same issue with a AMD 800Mhz machine with 128MBs. I just added 64MBs to it and it was a lot faster. I increased the 800MHz machine to about 300MBs later on. It helped some but not a lot. I just happened to get a system that didn't work but had some ram in it. I suspect KDE, and the kernel, needs about 200MBs together to run efficiently. This is based on my experience. I would not try to run a system with 128MBs again, unless I had too. Just a thought. Dale :-) Let's see if I can send email tonight. says prayer -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Linux Java wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. I use KDE. I tried Gnome and didn't like it. Some people with older/slower systems like Gnome or some other light desktops. It really isn't about what others like, it's about what you like. Install them both, login and see which you like. Me, no KDE, I'm in bad shape. Dale :-) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE? [OT]
quoth the Linux Java: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Unscientific: Google for: kde rules -- 40,900 kde sucks -- 9,660 gnome rules -- 554 gnome sucks -- 10,500 Draw your own conclusions. -d -- darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org ...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected... - Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 pgpcQiaVG3X6F.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
I use KDE. I tried Gnome and didn't like it. Some people with Me too. I've given Gnome a try several times (the latest on a recent Ubuntu Live CD, and I just don't like the whole look and feel as much as KDE, which is great IMHO. -- Ant... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Why? Use whatever suits you. If you want to use the most popular desktop, you probably need WinXP :) -- Neil Bothwick Everything takes longer than expected, even when you take into account Hoffstead's Law. - Hoffstead's Law signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Why? Use whatever suits you. If you want to use the most popular desktop, you probably need WinXP :) Which really sucks by the way. LOL It's worse than Gnome. Dale :-) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
to get the most out of kde run the following commands :emerge -C kdeemerge gnome-lite:Pok flame awayOn 1/20/06, Ryan Viljoen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I use Fluxbox but have been experimenting with KDE 3.5. I must say Ireally like it however it is not the complete KDE I emerged all theapps that I use and then emerged kdebase so I have the very very basicKDE system without all the other rubbish and bloatware that you get. KDE detects all my installed software and sorts out the menu and all.Fluxbox for speed and simplicity and KDE for eyecandy (can lag a bit).I despise gnome, I find it to be particularly backwards and I have not found a nice looking gnome desktop as of yet compared to soem of theKDE and fluxbox desktops around.Anyway my 2cents.--Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical)Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain--gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Anthony Roy skrev: I use KDE. I tried Gnome and didn't like it. Some people with Me too. I've given Gnome a try several times (the latest on a recent Ubuntu Live CD, and I just don't like the whole look and feel as much as KDE, which is great IMHO. -- Ant... I prefer Gnome, but KDE has some nice elements as well. Use what works best for you. The look and feel of Gnome is what I like the most. I'm only lacking some more advanced configuration options. KDE however has some nifty things, and I've considered installing it on my own system, even though I prefer to have only one DE (well apart from those I test, like EDE and Gnustep). -Kristian Poul Herkild -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Ryan Viljoen wrote: I use Fluxbox but have been experimenting with KDE 3.5. I must say I really like it however it is not the complete KDE I emerged all the apps that I use and then emerged kdebase so I have the very very basic KDE system without all the other rubbish and bloatware that you get. KDE detects all my installed software and sorts out the menu and all. Fluxbox for speed and simplicity and KDE for eyecandy (can lag a bit). I despise gnome, I find it to be particularly backwards and I have not found a nice looking gnome desktop as of yet compared to soem of the KDE and fluxbox desktops around. Anyway my 2cents. -- Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical) Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain I must admit, I tried Fluxbox a long time ago. Even on this fast rig, AMD2500+, it was nice and fast. I just like KDE and all the eye candy. I have a slide show for my desktop. Love my ladies. LOL That fluxbox sure is fast. It would be great for a slow rig, 400MHz or less. Would make a good light desktop for a noobie on a server since it is so light. I like you did not like Gnome at all. Maybe if I had a slower rig. I ran KDE on a 400MHz machine before, bloated Mandrake at that. LOL Each his/her own. Dale :-) I can't believe I just connected and I can send email with Mozilla. If my connection would just speed up a bit. o_O -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Paul wrote: to get the most out of kde run the following commands : emerge -C kde emerge gnome-lite :P ok flame away cough cough Can we assume you don't like KDE? LOL No flames here. I'm to pissed at kppp at the moment. I can only get mad at one thing/person at a time. o_O Cool huh? Dale :-) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
my findings with KDE is that its bloadwareif I wanted bloat , I'd run windowsGnome-lite is just that , lightIt serves my purposes fine and the menus are easy to edit to my liking. On 1/20/06, Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul wrote: to get the most out of kde run the following commands : emerge -C kde emerge gnome-lite :P ok flame away cough cough Can we assume you don't like KDE?LOLNo flames here.I'm to pissed at kppp at the moment.I can only getmad at one thing/person at a time.o_OCool huh?Dale:-) --gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Friday 20 January 2006 12:11, Dale wrote: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Why? Use whatever suits you. If you want to use the most popular desktop, you probably need WinXP :) Which really sucks by the way. LOL It's worse than Gnome. Dale :-) hold on, theres coming soon more evil Win Vista lol im with KDE and XFCE and almost all Gnome as dependency for gnucash m -- Linux 2.6.15-ck2 AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+ 14:16:56 up 14:25, 2 users, load average: 0.01, 0.03, 0.03 pgpYE02uqRHAu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:37:57 +0200, Paul wrote: to get the most out of kde run the following commands : emerge -C kde emerge gnome-lite :P ok flame away For what, pushing GNOME or top posting with full quotes? -- Neil Bothwick Oops. My brain just hit a bad sector. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:00:51 +0200, Paul wrote: my findings with KDE is that its bloadware if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows Gnome-lite is just that , light So a small part of GNOME is less bloated than all of KDE? That's a revelation! -- Neil Bothwick Life Support System Failure - Reboot Patient (Y/n)? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Am Freitag, 20. Januar 2006 13:00 schrieb ext Paul: my findings with KDE is that its bloadware if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows I've heard rumours there are split ebuilds for KDE *SCNR* Bye... Dirk -- Dirk Heinrichs | Tel: +49 (0)162 234 3408 Configuration Manager | Fax: +49 (0)211 47068 111 Capgemini Deutschland | Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hambornerstraße 55 | Web: http://www.capgemini.com D-40472 Düsseldorf | ICQ#: 110037733 GPG Public Key C2E467BB | Keyserver: www.keyserver.net pgpgRazcuvRvG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Couldnt resist adding my 2p I prefer to spend my configuring time ie. admin on the Big picture eg. setting up mail, apache, firewall, ... For the little things eg. desktop background one click icons to start daily apps and so on I am happy to let others give me a pleasent default. So what this means for me is that I sort configs in a text editor of choice [Vim] and let the KDE team do all the rest for me. I have learnt that no matter how much you think you know about linux there are always 10 levels of detail lower that you dont know so spend time on the things you really care about rather than editing a long config in order to gain a font in a light window manager. for example, I want to download the latest Gentoo live CD via bittorrent [save the good peoples bandwidth] do I a) Go for a console bittornado client and spend some time learning the various flags/switchs in order to do this. b) Have a ready GUI client in KDE that is start, paste, wait. No thought required. Prehaps not a great example but the principle is there . Anyway long and short of this is that KDE fully bloated for me :] stu ps. I have noticed that on average with KDE running plus bagful of usual apps and daemons I have around 130 process's running with Gnome it used to be around 160, may not mean much I guess but just a small observation. pps.. oo oo forgot to say, nautilus chews the horses and knonqueror is lovely [even if I can never spell it correctly :P ] On 20/01/06, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:00:51 +0200, Paul wrote: my findings with KDE is that its bloadware if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows Gnome-lite is just that , light So a small part of GNOME is less bloated than all of KDE? That's a revelation! -- Neil Bothwick Life Support System Failure - Reboot Patient (Y/n)? -- There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary, those who don't --Unknown -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
quoth the Paul: my findings with KDE is that its bloadware Right. It takes code to make software usable ;) if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows You seem to be implying that the only problem with windows is its size... Gnome-lite is just that , light So is fat-free ice cream, but I wouldn't eat it. Too brackish. It serves my purposes fine and the menus are easy to edit to my liking. Then stick with it. Interestingly, that is 2 reasons why I use KDE. -d -- darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org ...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected... - Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 pgpgFBzC0iBgm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 1/20/06, Linux Java [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Linus recommends you use KDE. http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html -Richard -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Neil Bothwick schreef: On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Why? Use whatever suits you. I hope that you all appreciate my extreme restraint in not posting to this thread until now, given how very much I dislike KDE. But for the record, just so that all you KDE-heads don't skew the results com*plete*ly: I always (from my first attempts at Linux some 3 years ago) preferred GNOME to KDE. Never liked Nautilus, though (it's tied for second on my list of most hated file managers), and since I've never been fond of desktop icons and all that cr... junk... I still found it too heavy. So I switched to Openbox 3 (with a GTK backend), and now I use fvwm-crystal (with a GTK backend). Gnome-light is (always) installed, but I don't use it as a desktop. I have only two KDE-specific applications that I would not do without (both compiled -kde and -arts to the greatest extent possible): Krusader (though this needs Konq and some other KDE utils for best usage, as it recognizes KDE apps much much better than GTK apps for viewing files and the like), and K3b. These apps require kdebase, so I've got that, but the day you see me logging into KDE, you can rest assured that either: 1) my system is so seriously broke that it's the only DE/WM I can get into (which is pretty unlikely. I mean, I've got iceWM and *afterstep* on the system, for Pete's sake; the day that doesn't work but KDE does will be... The day); or 2) I have been replaced by an alien clone (shoot first, ask questions later). I prefer to use GTK-based applications wherever possible because I find them more attractive in general, and I'm more used to them (as a GNOME user originally), unless they're junk, like Totem, in which case I use non-affiliated programs like Xine or mPlayer. Yes, I know Totem can be configured to use a Xine backend. Imo, there's no point; if that's the only way Totem works, I might as well just use Xine. Plus I want to see when gStreamer gets its act together. However I have no objection to QT-based apps (as opposed to KDE apps) when necessary. It does need to be necessary, though (meaning, if I need it, I'll install qdvdauthor, because there's no GTK alternative that I know of, but I can just as well use the CLI original, unless the GUI version has some additional feature or makes it easier to understand than the CLI version's man page). So anyway, Neil is of course right: use what you want; it's *your* desktop (finally!). I don't need a whole lot of GUI features (in fact I dislike a whole lot of GUI features), so KDE is not for me, the one who never liked Windows(-like) desktops, even when I was using Windows; I used an alternative shell from my Win98 days on. But for those who feel more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may be just the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a great extent. You can have it, though. I'll be elsewhere. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 04:11 -0600, Dale wrote: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Why? Use whatever suits you. If you want to use the most popular desktop, you probably need WinXP :) Which really sucks by the way. LOL It's worse than Gnome. Dale :-) My wife and I use GNOME. KDE is too Windows-like for us. I can't stand Windows XP. I think it's the most annoying OS I've ever attempted to use... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:17:43 -0700, Richard Fish wrote Linus recommends you use KDE. http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html -Richard -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Yup, and that's because he can't do what _he_ wants to. His complaints have been acknowledged to some extent. I agree with him in his criticism, but I still prefer Gnome. I lack the more advanced options, but the rest of Gnome is still to my liking. Personally I still believe using the DE which is best for you, is the best choice you can make. Be it Gnome, XFCE, EDE, KDE or whatever ;) The best DE would probably be a combination. Based on the IDs of mail applications used in gentoo-user I think KDE is the most used DE. 55% KDE vs. 35% Gnome seems realistic to me. Kristian Poul Herkild -- No patents on software! Copyright is no right! -- Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:37:47 -0600, Michael Sullivan wrote: My wife and I use GNOME. KDE is too Windows-like for us. I always thought Windows was rather KDE-like in some ways, but that's probably because I used KDE before windows. -- Neil Bothwick Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
My wife and I use KDE. I, mainly because I don't see the point in having multiple GUIs (they're not that facinating to me (other than to get into the source code), but for my wife, I find that for someone coming from using Windows, it seems that out of the box, KDE seems to have a stronger appeal to her than Gnome. Although, the environment she really took to was XFCE (though it's not a choice in this discussion). In looking at Holly's post, I'm inclined to agree. Being that most of the stuff I do (besides surf the net), but things like programming, moving files, your general admin stuff, configuration changes, etc I (like most of us here --probably) do from a command-line. My selling point for the command-line is I don't have to learn any new menus to use it ;), but to each his own. ShawnOn 1/20/06, Holly Bostick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neil Bothwick schreef: On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Why? Use whatever suits you.I hope that you all appreciate my extreme restraint in not posting to this thread until now, given how very much I dislike KDE.But for the record, just so that all you KDE-heads don't skew theresults com*plete*ly:I always (from my first attempts at Linux some 3 years ago) preferred GNOME to KDE. Never liked Nautilus, though (it's tied for second on mylist of most hated file managers), and since I've never been fond ofdesktop icons and all that cr... junk... I still found it too heavy. So I switched to Openbox 3 (with a GTK backend), and now I use fvwm-crystal(with a GTK backend). Gnome-light is (always) installed, but I don'tuse it as a desktop.I have only two KDE-specific applications that I would not do without (both compiled -kde and -arts to the greatest extent possible): Krusader(though this needs Konq and some other KDE utils for best usage, as itrecognizes KDE apps much much better than GTK apps for viewing files and the like), and K3b. These apps require kdebase, so I've got that, butthe day you see me logging into KDE, you can rest assured that either:1) my system is so seriously broke that it's the only DE/WM I can get into (which is pretty unlikely. I mean, I've got iceWM and *afterstep*on the system, for Pete's sake; the day that doesn't work but KDE doeswill be... The day);or2) I have been replaced by an alien clone (shoot first, ask questions later).I prefer to use GTK-based applications wherever possible because I findthem more attractive in general, and I'm more used to them (as a GNOMEuser originally), unless they're junk, like Totem, in which case I use non-affiliated programs like Xine or mPlayer. Yes, I know Totem can beconfigured to use a Xine backend. Imo, there's no point; if that's theonly way Totem works, I might as well just use Xine. Plus I want to see when gStreamer gets its act together. However I have no objection toQT-based apps (as opposed to KDE apps) when necessary. It does need tobe necessary, though (meaning, if I need it, I'll install qdvdauthor, because there's no GTK alternative that I know of, but I can just aswell use the CLI original, unless the GUI version has some additionalfeature or makes it easier to understand than the CLI version's man page). So anyway, Neil is of course right: use what you want; it's *your*desktop (finally!). I don't need a whole lot of GUI features (in fact Idislike a whole lot of GUI features), so KDE is not for me, the one who never liked Windows(-like) desktops, even when I was using Windows; Iused an alternative shell from my Win98 days on. But for those who feelmore comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may bejust the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a greatextent.You can have it, though. I'll be elsewhere. Holly--gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list-- Shawn Singh
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Linus recommends you use KDE. http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html I've been using KDE for years but switched to Gnome recently. Though I'm still using Kate. It's a matter of taste. Try them both. You'll probably find KDE more flexible and Gnome more responsive and better integrated with other open source projects out there. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
my findings with KDE is that its bloadware if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows Gnome-lite is just that , light It serves my purposes fine and the menus are easy to edit to my liking. Ah! What gnome-lite is for gnome is what kdebase is for KDE. emerge kdebase doesnt install all the rest of the crap. All it gives you is the base KDE environment with your preinstalled programs such as xine, mplayer, Eterm, Ajunta, The Gimp, gThumb et al works really nicely. Otherwise I whole heartedly agree that emerge gnome-lite is much better then emerge KDE (full complete). This is Gentoo... YOU HAVE THE POWER TO CHOOSE! :D -- Ryan Viljoen Bsc(Eng) (Electrical) Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Friday 20 January 2006 13:00, Paul wrote: my findings with KDE is that its bloadware if I wanted bloat , I'd run windows KDE is not bloated, it is feature complete, fully integrated (while gnome is a collection of third party applications) and while gnome takes away choices, KDE enables you to configure your desktop in ways you can hardly imagine. Oh, and do you know that KDE is completly scriptable (?) - I meamn, you can administer KDE completly with scripts. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Friday 20 January 2006 15:37, Michael Sullivan wrote: My wife and I use GNOME. KDE is too Windows-like for us. I can't stand Windows XP. I think it's the most annoying OS I've ever attempted to use... gnome is much more windows like than KDE. With KDE you have lots and lots of options to configure the desktop to your liking. This is not possible with gnome (it could confuse the users, say the gnome devs). Something gnome has in common with windows. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
AybOwan! i'm too using KDE. it's nice... colorfull world... On 1/21/06, Hemmann, Volker Armin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 20 January 2006 15:37, Michael Sullivan wrote: My wife and I use GNOME. KDE is too Windows-like for us. I can't stand Windows XP. I think it's the most annoying OS I've ever attempted to use... gnome is much more windows like than KDE. With KDE you have lots and lots of options to configure the desktop to your liking. This is not possible with gnome (it could confuse the users, say the gnome devs). Something gnome has in common with windows. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- ... The future lies ahead. ___ Have you mooed today? \^__^ \ (oo) \___ (__) \ )\/\ | |-w | | || | 2.6.14-gentoo-r2-sinhalese-r1.0 (((o)))~--~--~-- Proud to be a Sinhalese. SINHALESE ARE GENIUSES OF IRRIGATION http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~sydney/sinhales.htm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Friday 20 January 2006 19:59, Holly Bostick wrote: more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may be just the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a great extent. That statement is extremely unfair to KDE. Every DE needs to make at least some assumptions to present a working environment for the user and KDE is not alone in doing that. The quality comes in when the DE not only makes some choices for you but also gives you an easy access to editing/changing those features. As far as I can see, you can edit every choice that KDE has made for you with minimal fuss. If that is being Windows-like, then you can not be more wrong. -- Regards, Abhay pgpFYCVgHW1m1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Friday 20 January 2006 21:08, Alexander Kirillov wrote: and better integrated with other open source projects out there. That is not a quality of Gnome but GTK. Gnome uses GTK while KDE uses QT. Since (earlier) QT had a non-acceptable license for most of the developers of FLOSS, they chose GTK over QT. This lead to more and more applications being written with the toolkit, hence their better integration with Gnome. -- Regards, Abhay pgpSwc6VYnrys.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE? [OT]
On Friday 20 January 2006 15:01, darren kirby wrote: Unscientific: Google for: kde rules -- 40,900 kde sucks -- 9,660 gnome rules -- 554 gnome sucks -- 10,500 Draw your own conclusions. ..or we could always use googlefight ;) http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GBword1=kdeword2=gnome -- Regards, Abhay pgpcSTVYABIM6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE? [OT]
On Friday 20 January 2006 22:02, Abhay Kedia wrote: On Friday 20 January 2006 15:01, darren kirby wrote: Unscientific: Google for: kde rules -- 40,900 kde sucks -- 9,660 gnome rules -- 554 gnome sucks -- 10,500 Draw your own conclusions. ..or we could always use googlefight ;) http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GBword1=kdeword2=gnome which gives five different results on five tries. Four times KDE in front of gnome. one time gnome 2x the results of kde or gnome in the previous fights. Seems to be flawed. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
and better integrated with other open source projects out there. That is not a quality of Gnome but GTK. Gnome uses GTK while KDE uses QT. Since (earlier) QT had a non-acceptable license for most of the developers of FLOSS, they chose GTK over QT. This lead to more and more applications being written with the toolkit, hence their better integration with Gnome. I've been thinking about xscreensaver and mozilla:) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 1/20/06, Linux Java [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. I used Gnome for years (5 or 6 maybe?), but have recently switched to kde-3.4 and then now kde-3.5. For me, I wanted to try something different, and it is a nice change. I may swap back eventually, or even go back to Afterstep or Enlightenment, but for now kde-3.5 works for me. Mike -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. I wanna know how interesting such a discussion is ;-))) . Please resist to develop a flame war from this topic. Better enjoy open source, regardless if it is KDE, Gnome, OSS, ALSA, OpenOffice.org or Koffice etc., simply enjoy the times we are allowed to live in. Best regards ce -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On 1/21/06, Mike Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: even go back to Afterstep or Enlightenment, but for now kde-3.5 works for me. May I ask others' experiences with e17? I just wasted my holiday installing e17 on two of three machines. It is smaller than Kde, but background is 20% of cpu . Buggy. Beautiful. A PITA to configure, and menus suck. I don't think I'll be there long. I liked enlightenment .16 except I guess I really do need icons to remind me of what I've got on the system, and good menus. I still haven't decided to dump e17 for real, but in looking back, I did note how heavy KDE 3.5 is. Gnome: my employers already treat me like a child; I need options and flexibility. KDE is ugly IMHO: I blew that windows-like pop stand years ago. However, for some reason KDE developers in some, but NOT ALL cases, seem to wind up with a more polished package. Compare Kalzium and gperiodic. On really good days, I fire up fluxbox or a console. The bottom line on GUIs is ease of use. The tradeoff is flexibility and options. Nautilus works nicely, and for the first time I am using a GUI file manager for large scale reorganization of my filesystems. But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face---you can't do links with them. Noone has figured out how to make links user friendly? It's too complicated for the end user? So using a graphic user interface on a Unix-like system has led GNU/Linux back toward the idiot proof pseudo operating system: like MS-DOG being an idiotproofed unix-like system. Comments after having recently installed a bunch of GUI setups. Alan -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Saturday 21 January 2006 00:44, Alan E. Davis wrote: On 1/21/06, Mike Owen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: even go back to Afterstep or Enlightenment, but for now kde-3.5 works for me. May I ask others' experiences with e17? I just wasted my holiday installing e17 on two of three machines. It is smaller than Kde, but background is 20% of cpu . Buggy. Beautiful. A PITA to configure, and menus suck. I don't think I'll be there long. I liked enlightenment .16 except I guess I really do need icons to remind me of what I've got on the system, and good menus. that was exactly how I felt. All the problems to get it installed, and than it was such a bad thing to configureuse, that I deinstalled it some days later. I used earlier enlightenment incarnations as my main desktop for some time, back, when KDE 2.X was dead slow, but when KDE 3 came out, enlightenment lost its appeal. KDE is ugly IMHO: I blew that windows-like pop stand years ago. However, for some reason KDE developers in some, but NOT ALL cases, seem to wind up with a more polished package. Compare Kalzium and gperiodic. if it is ugly, install some themes you like ;) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
060121 Alan E. Davis wrote: But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face -- you can't do links with them. AFAIK Krusader can create links quite readily: look at its manual. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
Abhay Kedia schreef: On Friday 20 January 2006 19:59, Holly Bostick wrote: more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may be just the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a great extent. That statement is extremely unfair to KDE. Every DE needs to make at least some assumptions to present a working environment for the user That may be true, but it assumes that I want a Desktop Environment in the first place, which I don't, particularly. As I said, after finding even GNOME too heavy, I switched to Openbox 3, which basically presents *no* working environment, and now use fvwm-crystal, which presents a relatively minimal one, certainly by comparison to KDE. You may see it as unfair (like I care; KDE has no feelings, and I was actually being positive about it, given that I don't much like DEs in general and KDE in particular), but the very concept of a Desktop Environment is very similar to the Windows design of the OS being indistinguishable from the GUI (or rather the OS functions being as concealable within the GUI as possible), so I'm not quite sure why that's so terrible to say. and KDE is not alone in doing that. The quality comes in when the DE not only makes some choices for you but also gives you an easy access to editing/changing those features. As far as I can see, you can edit every choice that KDE has made for you with minimal fuss. I myself don't see it as minimal fuss, not least because KDE makes so many choices for me in its feature richness that I have to spend two hours (I'm being kind) finding all the bloody options that I don't want and change them or turn them off or whatever. And of course this has its limits; suppose I don't *want* my file manager integrated with my browser (didn't want it in Windows, don't want it now). I don't *want* to figure out how to tell KMix not to override my Alsa mixer settings, and I don't want to have to decide whether I want drive icons but not application icons (or no icons at all) on my desktop, and then tell KDE my decision. I don't want to name my desktops, or put a separate wallpaper on each one. I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to specify Window Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right now). And I certainly don't care to be bothered with the problem of how to make KDE play nice with my GTK apps (I do have some GTK 1 apps, which are much more problematic than GTK 2 apps in this respect) simply because I might happen to want to use some program whose name doesn't bloody start with K. You can say that I don't have to do any of this, or change any of the settings, but if I don't, then I'm stuck with KDE's sane defaults, and in that case then all these settings that I *could* change (but don't bother to) become bloat -- features I don't need, since I'm not going to use them. If I don't like KDE's default choices, then I have to fix them, within the parameters that KDE allows me, which is no longer minimal fuss. Certainly not minimal fuss when I want to use non k apps for certain functions that KDE would prefer that I use their provided applications for... I have several K-apps installed that I actually don't want, because the K-app I do use (Krusader) won't open files from within an archive using GTK apps like eye of gnome or Open Office. karc can't pass the file to these apps but it works fine with KView or KWord. Because K apps like other K apps. That makes perfect sense, since it's all supposed to be an integrated environment, but to me it feels like a prison. If that is being Windows-like, then you can not be more wrong. Insofar as Windows doesn't allow you to customize as much as KDE does, you're right. But in the idea that you give the user everything up to and including the kitchen sink by default unless the user themselves whittles the list down (within limits), then no, I'm not all that wrong. But I simply don't like DEs. If I'm going to spend time fine-tuning my desktop, I want exactly what I want, exactly the way I like it, not as close to how I like it as the DE supports. That's why I use build-it-yourself WMs like OB3 and FVWM. Each to his own taste, and if your taste is KDE, then more power to you. I accept that it's very good for what it is. I just don't happen to like what it is. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
The bottom line on GUIs is ease of use. The tradeoff is flexibility and options. I have NEVER, EVER understood why dumbing down things means making them easy to use. That's a line of reasoning that gets me mad. Look, the Advanced tab/dialog/whatever is not exactly a new invention. m. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
I myself don't see it as minimal fuss, not least because KDE makes so many choices for me in its feature richness that I have to spend two hours (I'm being kind) finding all the bloody options that I don't want and change them or turn them off or whatever. Sorry, I simply can't understand what are you talking about: suppose I don't *want* my file manager integrated with my browser (didn't want it in Windows, don't want it now). Where's the problem? I use Firefox as a browser and Konqueror as a file manager. I don't *want* to figure out how to tell KMix not to override my Alsa mixer settings, Disable it. Do not install it. and I don't want to have to decide whether I want drive icons but not application icons (or no icons at all) on my desktop, and then tell KDE my decision. I can't even understand what do you mean here. If you don't want icons, don't put them on the desktop. It's that simple. You have to do *nothing* to avoid icons on your desktop! I don't want to name my desktops, or put a separate wallpaper on each one. Nor I want, nor KDE ever forced me to do it. I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to specify Window Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right now). Ok, that's a good point. However that 6 tabs are more probably than not a wrapper to a plain text config file, that you can configure with your favourite editor all at once. And I certainly don't care to be bothered with the problem of how to make KDE play nice with my GTK apps (I do have some GTK 1 apps, which are much more problematic than GTK 2 apps in this respect) simply because I might happen to want to use some program whose name doesn't bloody start with K. What do you mean by play nice? I use a lot of GTK apps (both 1 and 2) and they work perfectly fine here without any fuss. I have several K-apps installed that I actually don't want, because the K-app I do use (Krusader) won't open files from within an archive using GTK apps like eye of gnome or Open Office. karc can't pass the file to these apps but it works fine with KView or KWord. Because K apps like other K apps. That makes perfect sense, since it's all supposed to be an integrated environment, but to me it feels like a prison. I understand what you mean here, that's something that I hate too. It's because other apps don't understand kioslaves. I think kioslaves are the best thing after sliced bread. Typing simply smb:/ to access a Samba share, or ftp:/ for accessing transparently FTP filesystems, or zip:/ for what's in a compressed archive is wonderful. I think other apps should work on compatibility about this. It's simply a good idea. But I simply don't like DEs. If I'm going to spend time fine-tuning my desktop, I want exactly what I want, exactly the way I like it, not as close to how I like it as the DE supports. That's why I use build-it-yourself WMs like OB3 and FVWM. I can't see why a WM can be more exactly what you want than a DE. Each to his own taste, and if your taste is KDE, then more power to you. I accept that it's very good for what it is. I just don't happen to like what it is. Oh, this is clear :) m. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Friday 20 January 2006 06:40, a tiny voice compelled Kristian Poul Herkild to write: Anthony Roy skrev: I use KDE. I tried Gnome and didn't like it. Some people with Me too. I've given Gnome a try several times (the latest on a recent Ubuntu Live CD, and I just don't like the whole look and feel as much as KDE, which is great IMHO. -- Ant... I prefer Gnome, but KDE has some nice elements as well. Use what works best for you. The look and feel of Gnome is what I like the most. I'm only lacking some more advanced configuration options. KDE however has some nifty things, and I've considered installing it on my own system, even though I prefer to have only one DE (well apart from those I test, like EDE and Gnustep). -Kristian Poul Herkild I've tried Gnome several times. I guess what turned me off was 6 or 7 years ago when I installed it and Nautilus virtually took over my machine. Granted I was a relative noobie to Linux, but KDE seemed to be much more to my liking. Each time I've tried Gnome since, I suppose I was prejudiced against it. I'm 56. I don't want to change. I do run Windowmaker on my older/slower machine, but that box just sit's there headless most of the time, doing it's own thing. -- Regards, Ernie -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
b.n. schreef: I myself don't see it as minimal fuss, not least because KDE makes so many choices for me in its feature richness that I have to spend two hours (I'm being kind) finding all the bloody options that I don't want and change them or turn them off or whatever. Sorry, I simply can't understand what are you talking about: suppose I don't *want* my file manager integrated with my browser (didn't want it in Windows, don't want it now). Where's the problem? I use Firefox as a browser and Konqueror as a file manager. Yes, but you then have bloat (because Konqueror contains web browsing features that you are not using, therefore the code is unnecessary for you, but nonetheless present). I don't *want* to figure out how to tell KMix not to override my Alsa mixer settings, Disable it. Do not install it. I have to then spend time finding out how to disable it or avoid installing it. and I don't want to have to decide whether I want drive icons but not application icons (or no icons at all) on my desktop, and then tell KDE my decision. I can't even understand what do you mean here. If you don't want icons, don't put them on the desktop. It's that simple. You have to do *nothing* to avoid icons on your desktop! The (presumably) default setting (since I've never touched it, and it is checked in kcontrol) is Show icons on desktop. There are then two additional tabs for kinds of icons that you can enable or disable (for file types and drives). Fine, I can turn them off, but again, there is then a whole lot of backend code for a feature that I do not want in the first place and know I don't want. I don't want to name my desktops, or put a separate wallpaper on each one. Nor I want, nor KDE ever forced me to do it. Code, code, code. Bloat (for me). I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to specify Window Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right now). Ok, that's a good point. However that 6 tabs are more probably than not a wrapper to a plain text config file, that you can configure with your favourite editor all at once. Code for a gui function that I'm not using if I'm just editing the base text file anyway. And I certainly don't care to be bothered with the problem of how to make KDE play nice with my GTK apps (I do have some GTK 1 apps, which are much more problematic than GTK 2 apps in this respect) simply because I might happen to want to use some program whose name doesn't bloody start with K. What do you mean by play nice? I use a lot of GTK apps (both 1 and 2) and they work perfectly fine here without any fuss. Yes they work fine, but they look like poop unless you jump through some hoops to integrate them with the look of your KDE desktop. This may involve installing additional applications (gtk-chtheme or gtk-engine-qt), or editing a text file (if you need to fix GTK 1 programs, which are generally not affected by the theme consolidation programs, which generally assume you're working with GTK2). Since one of KDE's big selling points is an integrated look-n-feel, outside apps that break the loveliness of the KDE desktop are very noticeable. I have several K-apps installed that I actually don't want, because the K-app I do use (Krusader) won't open files from within an archive using GTK apps like eye of gnome or Open Office. karc can't pass the file to these apps but it works fine with KView or KWord. Because K apps like other K apps. That makes perfect sense, since it's all supposed to be an integrated environment, but to me it feels like a prison. I understand what you mean here, that's something that I hate too. It's because other apps don't understand kioslaves. I think kioslaves are the best thing after sliced bread. Typing simply smb:/ to access a Samba share, or ftp:/ for accessing transparently FTP filesystems, or zip:/ for what's in a compressed archive is wonderful. I think other apps should work on compatibility about this. It's simply a good idea. I don't even type things like that, I bookmark locations in my file manager (admittedly, Krusader, if installed with konqueror support-- which means I have to install Konq, though I don't use Konq-- does recognize kioslaves, so I can bookmark folders in media:/ or smb:/ ) and just go where I intend to go. without further ado. But I can bookmark locations (even Samba shares and HAL mounts) in most file managers I have available (Nautilus, Krusader, TuxCommander, emelFM2) But I simply don't like DEs. If I'm going to spend time fine-tuning my desktop, I want exactly what I want, exactly the way I like it, not as close to how I like it as the DE supports. That's why I use build-it-yourself WMs like OB3 and FVWM. I can't see why a WM can be more exactly what you want than a DE. I want to use the programs that I like, without worrying about whether they are compatible with my DE. I don't want to be
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:44:19 +1000 Alan E. Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May I ask others' experiences with e17? I just wasted my holiday installing e17 on two of three machines. It is smaller than Kde, but background is 20% of cpu . Buggy. Beautiful. A PITA to configure, and menus suck. I don't think I'll be there long. I liked enlightenment .16 except I guess I really do need icons to remind me of what I've got on the system, and good menus. I used it a bit. Reminded me too much of WinXX/KDE/Gnome do I went back to e16.7. Icons can be added with Rox and Rox-session. Menu editing is easy with e16menuedit and key editing with e16keyedit. I still haven't decided to dump e17 for real, but in looking back, I did note how heavy KDE 3.5 is. Gnome: my employers already treat me like a child; I need options and flexibility. It's also possible to use engage with e16.7. giving a task bar at the bottom of the screen. But one glaring deficiency keeps hitting me in the face---you can't do links with them. Noone has figured out how to make links user friendly? It's too complicated for the end user? Rox filer lets me make links. Bob - -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
It's nice of you to give me so detailed explanation! I think I would like to use gnome for long time ^_^ Thank you very much On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 15:29 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: Neil Bothwick schreef: On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:10:13 +0800, Linux Java wrote: I wanna to know KDE and Gnome which is more popular. Why? Use whatever suits you. I hope that you all appreciate my extreme restraint in not posting to this thread until now, given how very much I dislike KDE. But for the record, just so that all you KDE-heads don't skew the results com*plete*ly: I always (from my first attempts at Linux some 3 years ago) preferred GNOME to KDE. Never liked Nautilus, though (it's tied for second on my list of most hated file managers), and since I've never been fond of desktop icons and all that cr... junk... I still found it too heavy. So I switched to Openbox 3 (with a GTK backend), and now I use fvwm-crystal (with a GTK backend). Gnome-light is (always) installed, but I don't use it as a desktop. I have only two KDE-specific applications that I would not do without (both compiled -kde and -arts to the greatest extent possible): Krusader (though this needs Konq and some other KDE utils for best usage, as it recognizes KDE apps much much better than GTK apps for viewing files and the like), and K3b. These apps require kdebase, so I've got that, but the day you see me logging into KDE, you can rest assured that either: 1) my system is so seriously broke that it's the only DE/WM I can get into (which is pretty unlikely. I mean, I've got iceWM and *afterstep* on the system, for Pete's sake; the day that doesn't work but KDE does will be... The day); or 2) I have been replaced by an alien clone (shoot first, ask questions later). I prefer to use GTK-based applications wherever possible because I find them more attractive in general, and I'm more used to them (as a GNOME user originally), unless they're junk, like Totem, in which case I use non-affiliated programs like Xine or mPlayer. Yes, I know Totem can be configured to use a Xine backend. Imo, there's no point; if that's the only way Totem works, I might as well just use Xine. Plus I want to see when gStreamer gets its act together. However I have no objection to QT-based apps (as opposed to KDE apps) when necessary. It does need to be necessary, though (meaning, if I need it, I'll install qdvdauthor, because there's no GTK alternative that I know of, but I can just as well use the CLI original, unless the GUI version has some additional feature or makes it easier to understand than the CLI version's man page). So anyway, Neil is of course right: use what you want; it's *your* desktop (finally!). I don't need a whole lot of GUI features (in fact I dislike a whole lot of GUI features), so KDE is not for me, the one who never liked Windows(-like) desktops, even when I was using Windows; I used an alternative shell from my Win98 days on. But for those who feel more comfortable with a more Windows-like environment, and Windows-like assumptions about what a user wants/needs from their desktop, KDE may be just the thing; that is, after all, what it's designed to do to a great extent. You can have it, though. I'll be elsewhere. Holly
Re: [gentoo-user] How many people use KDE?
I'm just writing it for the sake of curiosity, so no flaming is here. Just because some answer sound quite sarcastic, but that's just a style thing to get it short. :) Yes, but you then have bloat (because Konqueror contains web browsing features that you are not using, therefore the code is unnecessary for you, but nonetheless present). [...] Code, code, code. Bloat (for me). [...] Fine, I can turn them off, but again, there is then a whole lot of backend code for a feature that I do not want in the first place and know I don't want. Ehm. Perhaps it's me being dense but: who cares about unused code? Ok, you have unnecessary, unused code sitting on your HD: where's the problem? You never see it. I have to then spend time finding out how to disable it or avoid installing it. It's quite odd you obviously had spent the (worthwile but not instantaneous) time to learn Linux, install Gentoo etc. but then you can't type emerge --unmerge kmix. I can't even understand what do you mean here. If you don't want icons, don't put them on the desktop. It's that simple. You have to do *nothing* to avoid icons on your desktop! The (presumably) default setting (since I've never touched it, and it is checked in kcontrol) is Show icons on desktop. There are then two additional tabs for kinds of icons that you can enable or disable (for file types and drives). But if you don't actively link things on the desktop, *nothing* appears on your desktop!! I have no interest in going through 6 tabs to specify Window Behaviour (I'm looking at the KDE Control Center right now). Ok, that's a good point. However that 6 tabs are more probably than not a wrapper to a plain text config file, that you can configure with your favourite editor all at once. Code for a gui function that I'm not using if I'm just editing the base text file anyway. ? Yes they work fine, but they look like poop unless you jump through some hoops to integrate them with the look of your KDE desktop. This may involve installing additional applications (gtk-chtheme or gtk-engine-qt), or editing a text file (if you need to fix GTK 1 programs, which are generally not affected by the theme consolidation programs, which generally assume you're working with GTK2). Since one of KDE's big selling points is an integrated look-n-feel, outside apps that break the loveliness of the KDE desktop are very noticeable. This is one of the things I really have never understood. 1)On a, let's say, fvwm or fluxbox desktop (the one I actually use at home, I am a KDE user at work), no app is integrated with nothing. So the situation should be worse. 2)GTK apps look different from KDE apps. So what? gmplayer or xpdf aren't similar to both. What's so bad in them being different? I don't even type things like that, I bookmark locations in my file manager (admittedly, Krusader, if installed with konqueror support-- which means I have to install Konq, though I don't use Konq-- does recognize kioslaves, so I can bookmark folders in media:/ or smb:/ ) and just go where I intend to go. without further ado. But I can bookmark locations (even Samba shares and HAL mounts) in most file managers I have available (Nautilus, Krusader, TuxCommander, emelFM2) Hmm. So you mean, for example, you can bookmark a location that shows you all SMB-connected PCs on your local network? How do you do this? Even for not-smbmounted shares? Anyway (apart from the code thing, where I am very curious) I understand your philosophy. Thanks, m. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
