Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
Am 30.05.2013 10:04, schrieb Andrea Conti: No. :) While Intel Macs are EFI platforms, they have an early and quirky implementation that cannot properly boot Windows in EFI mode I hope you are not right for the latest MAC Mini, I would like to buy. PS: Sorry, long line Tamer
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
Thanks Andrea. I had though that the MBR was automatically mapped to the the first 4 gpt partitions because that's they way it's always been on my system. So now I wonder how it's been set that way, because I know i've never touched gpt-fdisk and I didn't use bootcamp. Maybe the refit installer. I have no idea. No sane GPT partitioning tool should ever automatically create a hybrid MBR: it's not part of the GPT spec and if it's not properly updated at every change of the GPT table there's the risk of massive corruption. I know for sure that OSX's Disk Utility doesn't create one. AFAIK the rEFIt installer just copies the boot manager on the OSX partition and installs a startup item that makes sure rEFIt is blessed (i.e. selected as the active EFI boot manager) at every reboot. andrea
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
The real problem is that while rEFIt/rEFInd, OSX and Linux have no problem dealing with a GPT partition table, Windows only supports MBR. (Windows 7+ supports GPT partition tables but it can only boot from a GPT disk in EFI mode. So, let us assume we have in the game: Windows 7 Ultimate Edition Gentoo Linux and Mac OSX (latest version) then we are all on the same side accessing the same partition table type, no?! No. :) While Intel Macs are EFI platforms, they have an early and quirky implementation that cannot properly boot Windows in EFI mode, so you're stuck with booting in BIOS emulation mode, which in turn means that Windows will not use the GPT table. This is a really stupid Windows limitation, but we can't do anything about it. The Linux kernel can use GPT with no restrictions, however booting is another story. Booting directly from GPT requires a GPT-aware bootloader such as GRUB 2. Alternatively you can use GRUB legacy, but you need an entry in the MBR for the boot partition. The root partition (and any other partitions) need not appear in the MBR, as they are mounted by the kernel. OSX uses GPT natively and does not need MBR entries for its partition(s). The only exception is if you want read-only access to an HFS+ partition in Windows through the driver provided by BootCamp; in that case you need to ensure that the first entry in the hybrid MBR covers the HFS+ partition you want to access. andrea
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
Okay, I meanwhile got that even the most new Mac Mini Servers make use of the earliest implementations of EFI that Windows doesn't understand. The only way to get Windows booted propperly is in BIOS emulation mode, but that Partitions wouldn't be recognized (according it's emulation). Questions: Am 30.05.2013 10:04, schrieb Andrea Conti: No. :) Please tell me the order which way I have to install the OS's (having 2 x 1TB Disks available). Is there a way for me to get OSX, Win and Gentoo on 1 disk ?! While Intel Macs are EFI platforms, they have an early and quirky implementation that cannot properly boot Windows in EFI mode, so you're stuck with booting in BIOS emulation mode, Do I have to activate the emulation mode somewhere?! which in turn means that Windows will not use the GPT table. This is a really stupid Windows limitation, but we can't do anything about it. hm The Linux kernel can use GPT with no restrictions, however booting is another story. Booting directly from GPT requires a GPT-aware bootloader such as GRUB Intel Mac's are EFI Platforms that cannot boot Windows and that we would have to deal with BIOS Emulation that wouldn't make us of the GPT Table. fine, and wonderfull Now I have Grub2 with GPT support available, we can boot Gentoo and OsX but what about Windows which runs in BIOS emulation mode, and won't make use of the GPT table 2. Alternatively you can use GRUB legacy, Now how do we mix with GRUB Legacy?! after there is Mac OSX installed. as I red about GUID (GPT) appears in the system as a full reserved MBR entry. How do you plan to make after installing OSX one other MBR record with Grub legacy without breaking afterwards the GUID partition entry?! but you need an entry in the MBR for the boot partition. The root partition (and any other partitions) need not appear in the MBR, as they are mounted by the kernel. OSX uses GPT natively and does not need MBR entries for its partition(s). The only exception is if you want read-only access to an HFS+ partition in Windows through the driver provided by BootCamp; in that case you need to ensure that the first entry in the hybrid MBR covers the HFS+ partition you want to access. I don't need access from Windows to read a HFS+ partition. I would propably make myself a small ext3/4 partition (or if possible making use of the 2nd disk as ext4 and that would it be), that would be the entry point for the OS's to access the FS, and I believe that OSX system has the ability to mount ext3 types Or no drivers from the opensource world available ?! andrea Thanks for your time Andrea! I know, you must really hate me right now, but I want to jump in the Mac world, but without loosing Windows and Gentoo :( If you say, that it is shitt difficult and it's better for me to keep the fingers away of it, then I do what you want from me. If you tell me, it is it worth, then I would kindly thank you providing me as much infos as possible, because in max 2 weeks my new mac server (max built) would be there to be misused by my keyboard fingers. Tamer
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
On 30.05.2013 18:29, Tamer Higazi wrote: ... which in turn means that Windows will not use the GPT table. This is a really stupid Windows limitation, but we can't do anything about it. hm The Linux kernel can use GPT with no restrictions, however booting is another story. Booting directly from GPT requires a GPT-aware bootloader such as GRUB Intel Mac's are EFI Platforms that cannot boot Windows and that we would have to deal with BIOS Emulation that wouldn't make us of the GPT Table. fine, and wonderfull Now I have Grub2 with GPT support available, we can boot Gentoo and OsX but what about Windows which runs in BIOS emulation mode, and won't make use of the GPT table ... Making Windows boot from GPT for non-EFI systems is possible with hybrid GPT-MBR partition tables. Details: http://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/hybrid.html and google 'hybrid MBR' I've been using this for a while already and can say that it's doable, working and stable, but in case you occasionally run non-hybrid-MBR-aware partitioning tools such as fdisk, gparted, etc, you can face some problems (though as far as I've encountered by now, only problems related to booting windows). Anyway this is probably the only solution for multibooting. -- Best wishes, Yuri K. Shatroff
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?! GOT IT!
Hi Andrea! Got the problem with Windows I red myself today through (h) No need to answer my last Mail in the List, it is all clear to me now. But thanks again, for the last long explanation anyway Tamer Am 30.05.2013 10:04, schrieb Andrea Conti: The real problem is that while rEFIt/rEFInd, OSX and Linux have no problem dealing with a GPT partition table, Windows only supports MBR. (Windows 7+ supports GPT partition tables but it can only boot from a GPT disk in EFI mode. So, let us assume we have in the game: Windows 7 Ultimate Edition Gentoo Linux and Mac OSX (latest version) then we are all on the same side accessing the same partition table type, no?! No. :) While Intel Macs are EFI platforms, they have an early and quirky implementation that cannot properly boot Windows in EFI mode, so you're stuck with booting in BIOS emulation mode, which in turn means that Windows will not use the GPT table. This is a really stupid Windows limitation, but we can't do anything about it.
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
Hi Yuri, If the MAC Mini has a UEFI Bios, then the whole problem we have talked about was for nothing. That is only related to 32 Bit Versions of Windows. x64 Windows 7 Version comes with a UEFI Bootloader and an installer, that can be used. http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd744321%28WS.10%29.aspx So I think, everything is still on the same side Am 30.05.2013 17:01, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff: http://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/hybrid.html and google 'hybrid MBR' I've been using this for a while already and can say that it's doable, working and stable, but in case you occasionally run non-hybrid-MBR-aware partitioning tools such as fdisk, gparted, etc, you can face some problems (though as far as I've encountered by now, only problems related to booting windows). Anyway this is probably the only solution for multibooting.
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
We can't have more then 4 primary partitions on a hard disk. Gentoo needs 2 partitions, /boot and a Virtual partition (that count's as well as one primary) with all the other folders. Windows will create 2. and Mac OSX minimum 1, am I right?! Your Windows partitions have to be in the first four, but OSX and linux partitions can be anywhere thanks to the gpt partition table. Things are both simpler and more complex than that. The real problem is that while rEFIt/rEFInd, OSX and Linux have no problem dealing with a GPT partition table, Windows only supports MBR. (Windows 7+ supports GPT partition tables but it can only boot from a GPT disk in EFI mode. On a Mac OSes other than OSX must be booted in BIOS emulation mode, therefore the requirement for MBR on the system disk for Windows still stands). GPT and MBR, however, are only indexing schemes: they describe how many partitions are on a disk and their location, but apart from providing a high level 'type' label they have nothing to do with what's inside a partition. GPT-partitioned disks traditionallly have what's called a 'protective MBR', i.e. a dummy MBR which defines a single partition of type 0xEE spanning the whole disk; this is intended to keep partitioning tools that are not GPT-aware from considering the disk uninitialized and inadvertently destroying its contents. However, nothing prevents you from adding to the protective MBR regular entries for some of the partitions, and have the disk look like a 'normal' MBR disk as far as those partitions are concerned. The result is called a 'hybrid MBR' and it's the main trick behind Boot Camp. There is really nothing special about booting (or installing) Windows on a Mac: it just works, as long as you have both a properly set up hybrid MBR with an entry for the Windows partition and a suitable EFI boot manager. The former can be done with a tool such as gpt-fdisk (you can easily find a binary package for OSX, and there are directions for dealing with hybrid MBRs on the author's site); rEFInd is your best option for the latter. The standard Apple boot manager will also do, if you only need to boot OSX and Windows. Booting Linux works in a similar fashion. You don't even need a GPT-aware bootloader: good old GRUB 1 is perfectly up to the task, as long as there is an entry for its boot partition in the hybrid MBR. Then you can load a kernel with GPT support, and from there it's just a standard multiboot setup. HTH, andrea
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
On Wed, May 29, 2013, at 04:25 AM, Andrea Conti wrote: We can't have more then 4 primary partitions on a hard disk. Gentoo needs 2 partitions, /boot and a Virtual partition (that count's as well as one primary) with all the other folders. Windows will create 2. and Mac OSX minimum 1, am I right?! Your Windows partitions have to be in the first four, but OSX and linux partitions can be anywhere thanks to the gpt partition table. Things are both simpler and more complex than that. The real problem is that while rEFIt/rEFInd, OSX and Linux have no problem dealing with a GPT partition table, Windows only supports MBR. (Windows 7+ supports GPT partition tables but it can only boot from a GPT disk in EFI mode. On a Mac OSes other than OSX must be booted in BIOS emulation mode, therefore the requirement for MBR on the system disk for Windows still stands). GPT and MBR, however, are only indexing schemes: they describe how many partitions are on a disk and their location, but apart from providing a high level 'type' label they have nothing to do with what's inside a partition. GPT-partitioned disks traditionallly have what's called a 'protective MBR', i.e. a dummy MBR which defines a single partition of type 0xEE spanning the whole disk; this is intended to keep partitioning tools that are not GPT-aware from considering the disk uninitialized and inadvertently destroying its contents. However, nothing prevents you from adding to the protective MBR regular entries for some of the partitions, and have the disk look like a 'normal' MBR disk as far as those partitions are concerned. The result is called a 'hybrid MBR' and it's the main trick behind Boot Camp. There is really nothing special about booting (or installing) Windows on a Mac: it just works, as long as you have both a properly set up hybrid MBR with an entry for the Windows partition and a suitable EFI boot manager. The former can be done with a tool such as gpt-fdisk (you can easily find a binary package for OSX, and there are directions for dealing with hybrid MBRs on the author's site); rEFInd is your best option for the latter. The standard Apple boot manager will also do, if you only need to boot OSX and Windows. Booting Linux works in a similar fashion. You don't even need a GPT-aware bootloader: good old GRUB 1 is perfectly up to the task, as long as there is an entry for its boot partition in the hybrid MBR. Then you can load a kernel with GPT support, and from there it's just a standard multiboot setup. HTH, andrea Thanks Andrea. I had though that the MBR was automatically mapped to the the first 4 gpt partitions because that's they way it's always been on my system. So now I wonder how it's been set that way, because I know i've never touched gpt-fdisk and I didn't use bootcamp. Maybe the refit installer.
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
Hi Andrea! Am 29.05.2013 11:25, schrieb Andrea Conti: The real problem is that while rEFIt/rEFInd, OSX and Linux have no problem dealing with a GPT partition table, Windows only supports MBR. (Windows 7+ supports GPT partition tables but it can only boot from a GPT disk in EFI mode. So, let us assume we have in the game: Windows 7 Ultimate Edition Gentoo Linux and Mac OSX (latest version) then we are all on the same side accessing the same partition table type, no?! Booting Linux works in a similar fashion. You don't even need a GPT-aware bootloader: good old GRUB 1 is perfectly up to the task, as long as there is an entry for its boot partition in the hybrid MBR. Then you can load a kernel with GPT support, and from there it's just a standard multiboot setup. HTH, andrea
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 04:09:13PM +0200, Tamer Higazi wrote: Hi people! I have come close, according my profession to buy myself the latest Mac Mini Server. Because I do all of my development stuff on Gentoo and Windows, I am highly interested to know if any of you guys is running Mac OS X and Windows beside Gentoo and boot from GRUB. What I hear all the time from other people, is this bootcamp application apple has published a while ago. What is this bootcamp?! Is this a boot-loader or BIOS ?! What is it? If I am not really wrong, I suggest, that bootcamp is nothing else as a bootloader that does in reality nothing else like GRUB. Tamer Boot Camp is a multi boot utility included with Apple Inc.'s OS X that assists users in installing Microsoft Windows operating systems on Intel-based Macintosh computers. The utility's Boot Camp Assistant guides users through non-destructive disk partitioning (including resizing of an existing HFS+ partition, if necessary) of their hard disk drive and installation of Windows device drivers. The utility also installs a Windows Control Panel applet for selecting the boot operating system. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Camp_%28software%29 You might also want to take a look at rEFIt [0] if you want to boot Linux on your Mac Mini. [0] - http://refit.sourceforge.net/ -- staticsafe O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org Please don't top post - http://goo.gl/YrmAb Don't CC me! I'm subscribed to whatever list I just posted on.
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 10:14:13AM -0400, staticsafe wrote: On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 04:09:13PM +0200, Tamer Higazi wrote: Hi people! I have come close, according my profession to buy myself the latest Mac Mini Server. Because I do all of my development stuff on Gentoo and Windows, I am highly interested to know if any of you guys is running Mac OS X and Windows beside Gentoo and boot from GRUB. What I hear all the time from other people, is this bootcamp application apple has published a while ago. What is this bootcamp?! Is this a boot-loader or BIOS ?! What is it? If I am not really wrong, I suggest, that bootcamp is nothing else as a bootloader that does in reality nothing else like GRUB. Tamer Boot Camp is a multi boot utility included with Apple Inc.'s OS X that assists users in installing Microsoft Windows operating systems on Intel-based Macintosh computers. The utility's Boot Camp Assistant guides users through non-destructive disk partitioning (including resizing of an existing HFS+ partition, if necessary) of their hard disk drive and installation of Windows device drivers. The utility also installs a Windows Control Panel applet for selecting the boot operating system. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Camp_%28software%29 You might also want to take a look at rEFIt [0] if you want to boot Linux on your Mac Mini. [0] - http://refit.sourceforge.net/ Oh apparently rEFIt is no longer actively maintained. Therefore, take a look at rEFInd [0]. [0] - http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ -- staticsafe O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org Please don't top post - http://goo.gl/YrmAb Don't CC me! I'm subscribed to whatever list I just posted on.
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
Hi! My questions: 1. Do I need bootcamp?! 2. Why am I not able to accomplish this task with grubm and have to take refind ? 3. What would be the way to install Windows, Linux and Mac on 1 hard disk. Would that be possible? I would kindly thank you for your answer. Tamer Boot Camp is a multi boot utility included with Apple Inc.'s OS X that assists users in installing Microsoft Windows operating systems on Intel-based Macintosh computers. The utility's Boot Camp Assistant guides users through non-destructive disk partitioning (including resizing of an existing HFS+ partition, if necessary) of their hard disk drive and installation of Windows device drivers. The utility also installs a Windows Control Panel applet for selecting the boot operating system. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Camp_%28software%29 You might also want to take a look at rEFIt [0] if you want to boot Linux on your Mac Mini. [0] - http://refit.sourceforge.net/ Oh apparently rEFIt is no longer actively maintained. Therefore, take a look at rEFInd [0]. [0] - http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
On Tue, May 28, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Tamer Higazi wrote: Hi! My questions: 1. Do I need bootcamp?! You don't need bootcamp, but it does make the windows install more streamlined. You will probably still want bootcamp to install the apple drivers post-install regardless. The drivers are the OS X install dvd. 2. Why am I not able to accomplish this task with grubm and have to take refind ? I have never had any luck getting grub to boot OS X. It might be possible for grub to load refit/refind, but I've not tried this. 3. What would be the way to install Windows, Linux and Mac on 1 hard disk. Would that be possible? Yes, there are several ways to do this. If I remember right, here's how I did it. 1) Partition the disk from the OS X install dvd using the gpt partition table, then install OS X. 2) Boot into OS X and install refit or refind. 3) Install Windows. Refit should recognize the windows install dvd, if it doesn't, restart with the option key held down. Make sure to install windows to one of the first three partitions. After the install if you have trouble booting you may have to reinstall refit. Just use the option key to select your boot partition. 4) Install linux. I used grub 1 as the linux bootloader, installed to the linux boot partition so that it wouldn't mess with refit.
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
Seems to be that GRUB2 auto detects Snow Leopard partitions. So you are right, installing Mac OS X, then windows, then Linux with Grub2: http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/189079-grub2-as-the-only-boot-loader-its-possible/ But there is one more problem at the whole thing.. We can't have more then 4 primary partitions on a hard disk. Gentoo needs 2 partitions, /boot and a Virtual partition (that count's as well as one primary) with all the other folders. Windows will create 2. and Mac OSX minimum 1, am I right?! Tamer Am 28.05.2013 21:07, schrieb Andy Laursen: On Tue, May 28, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Tamer Higazi wrote: Hi! My questions: 1. Do I need bootcamp?! You don't need bootcamp, but it does make the windows install more streamlined. You will probably still want bootcamp to install the apple drivers post-install regardless. The drivers are the OS X install dvd. 2. Why am I not able to accomplish this task with grubm and have to take refind ? I have never had any luck getting grub to boot OS X. It might be possible for grub to load refit/refind, but I've not tried this. 3. What would be the way to install Windows, Linux and Mac on 1 hard disk. Would that be possible? Yes, there are several ways to do this. If I remember right, here's how I did it. 1) Partition the disk from the OS X install dvd using the gpt partition table, then install OS X. 2) Boot into OS X and install refit or refind. 3) Install Windows. Refit should recognize the windows install dvd, if it doesn't, restart with the option key held down. Make sure to install windows to one of the first three partitions. After the install if you have trouble booting you may have to reinstall refit. Just use the option key to select your boot partition. 4) Install linux. I used grub 1 as the linux bootloader, installed to the linux boot partition so that it wouldn't mess with refit.
Re: [gentoo-user] Mac Mini with Grub booting Mac OSX and Windows?!
On Tue, May 28, 2013, at 02:21 PM, Tamer Higazi wrote: Seems to be that GRUB2 auto detects Snow Leopard partitions. So you are right, installing Mac OS X, then windows, then Linux with Grub2: http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/189079-grub2-as-the-only-boot-loader-its-possible/ But there is one more problem at the whole thing.. We can't have more then 4 primary partitions on a hard disk. Gentoo needs 2 partitions, /boot and a Virtual partition (that count's as well as one primary) with all the other folders. Windows will create 2. and Mac OSX minimum 1, am I right?! Your Windows partitions have to be in the first four, but OSX and linux partitions can be anywhere thanks to the gpt partition table.
