Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
This is not evenOff Topic. I declare it out of bounds. On 8 Nov 2004 at 16:18, Nicky Smith wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Eleanor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Deborah A. Fleming" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:03 PM > Subject: Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h > > > This is absolute garbage. This kind of hysterical demonization of > anyone > > who doesn't march in lockstep with the liberal viewpoint is exactly > the > > reason the liberals lost the election. > > > > At 10:45 AM 11/8/2004, Deborah A. Fleming wrote: > > >Probably the best assessment of our new, bipartisan kind of > > >pResident > came > > >from > > >England. Children's fantasy writer Phillip Pullman, author of the > trilogy "His > > >Dark Materials," said that Bush would make a perfect Kids' Fantasy > Villain. > > > Anyone who wants to find out more about Pullman's views on America > might be interested in this recent article by him about the power of > reading - http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1343733,00.html > > BTW our liberals must be very different from American ones since ours > are known more for their cardigans than hysteria. I think I like the > sound of yours though. -- Helen_A -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm
Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
Good grief, Eleanor, maybe you should calm down a bit before replying here. What bothers me about your comments -- besides the extreme tone of voice quite inappropriate to a reasoned discussion -- is your conflation of terms. In the U.S., you have Republicans and Democrats. There are no "liberals" -- Democrats are neither similar to classic Jeremy Bentham Liberals nor the Liberal Party of Canada nor the UK Liberal Democrats. When I hear an American call supporters of the Democratic Party "liberals", I hear the message that that person is trying to insult the Democrats (tho personally I see nothing insulting in the political theory of liberalism, even tho I don't agree with it). I also hear a person who is not willing to argue the facts, or willing to accept criticism of their leader. Now surely you don't want to appear like that? As for the results of your election, surely you must agree the margin of victory was rather narrow? Having 49% of the electorate vote against you (48% for the other major candidate) is hardly what I'd call an overwhelming mandate, especially in a war situation. Furthermore -- as my local right-wing newspaper pointed out in its Business section today -- Mr. Bush has certainly painted himself into a corner in terms of any freedom of action with his ballooning budget deficits, balance of trade deficits, and a very difficult-to-solve situation in the Middle East. As for Democrats not accepting the results of the election, I honestly am having problems thinking of any. Certainly not Senator Kerry or the party itself. Not even Michael Moore. And as for the Patriot Act: it's far more extensive than anything ever done against drug dealers. Read the comments by the American Library Association, showing exactly how the act can be used to track what ordinary Americans read. As for Pullman's quote, the record shows that George W. Bush has stronger and more intimate ties with organized religion, and in particular what's referred to as the "Christian Right" than any other U.S. president in the last century at least. This has shown up with his strong support for such initiatives as government-funded faith-based social services (i.e. the Church runs the welfare system), or faith-based prisons (the Church runs the prison). That being said, Pullman's an idiot. There are some very nasty extremists who use the Christian Right as their ideology (i.e. James Kopp who killed doctors who provided abortions), but Pullman's comparison is bizarre. It insults both the huge majority of decent Christians and the huge majority of decent Moslems. As for injecting politics where it does not belong, perhaps it would have been better for you not to fly off the handle, and either not respond, or calmly say you thought the statement is inflammatory and inappropriate. Alayne On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Eleanor wrote: > What a dilemma! The liberals, who think they know so much better than > anyone else what is right and good and just, are being rejected in the > wonderfully democratic system that they profess to hold dear. The problem > can't be that they have gone off the deep end and turned liberal values > into a convoluted series of litmus tests to determine political > correctness. Of course not. It must be that 59 million Americans are > stupid, bigoted, benighted fools who just won't LISTEN! > > Pity we can't just toss democracy and let the liberals rule by fiat. They > are so much more enlightened than the rest of us. > > >I posted this because we have discussed Pullman, and his writing and beliefs, > >here on GO, before. Interesting reactions. > > No, you posted it because you wanted to inject politics where it didn't > belong and hoped to stir up some America-bashing where you thought it was > safe to do so, on a list with relatively few Americans. > > >Since almost all of the media in the U.S. is owned by right-leaning > >supporters > >of Bu$hCo, let's not kid ourselves that there is much of a "liberal" media > >today in the U.S. > > Oh, yes indeedy. Like CBS, with its fabricated National Guard memos, and > then its little plan to run the Iraq explosives story--repackaged old news, > in any event--two days before the election. > > >As the Patriot Act is expanded, the few dissenting voices will probably > >disappear. > > Guess we won't hear from you again, then. But of course you know that the > Patriot Act merely allows the government, WITH specific judicial approval, > to use tools against terrorists that it has long used against drug dealers. > > >America now has, effectively, a one-party system. This may not bode well for > >future events. I think time will tell if Pullman's assessment is correct in > >his opinions. > > And whose fault is that drift to one party? The Democratic Party, instead > of trying to address the real concerns of what has always been its base, > writes off those in the middle of the country and the South as stupid > ideologues. Pity that the party of FDR and LBJ has deterior
Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
I wondered why my inbox was so full - it only needs a political debate to get things moving. Imagine how busy a list dedicated to politics might be. I wanted to add my thanks to those posting papers. It's a welcome change to have a book discussion with a different format and the papers must take quite a bit of work to prepare. Michelle - also needing more PC time. -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm
Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
I understand that some right-wingers feel that there are attempts by Pullman and others on the left to demonize them. Similarly, some liberals and non-Christians feel that there are attempts by some right-wingers to demonize them [I don't mean on the list, but in general]. I'm not Evil Acting Head at the moment; and am welcome to leave the decision up to Helen, but I think that perhaps the more intense forms of political debate should be kept offlist. I have already succumbed to the temptation to debate inappropriately on another list; and am restraining myself here. Perhaps we could turn this into a more on-topic discussion of elections in GO books? There aren't many of the 'big' sort, but there are plenty of school elections. And re American politics, there are of course the fascinating books by Ellen Emerson White, which I've read, but unfortunately don't own. Best wishes, Ann -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm
Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
At 12:09 PM 11/8/2004, Deborah A. Fleming wrote: Liberals aren't the ones who refused access to Bu$h campaign rallies to anyone who might express an opposing view. Liberals did not pen protesters up far away from where the President of the United States, who is supposed to be representing us all, was speaking, on numerous occasions. More garbage. The only "penning" of protestors was done because of valid security concerns, and was done at both the Democratic and Republican conventions to keep terrorists from invading the venues. In fact, the protesters were kept farther away at the Democratic convention than the Republican convention. Apparently we know how to handle crowds better in New York City than they do in Boston. I didn't know that there was some solemn constitutional right for hecklers to be allowed to disrupt campaign rallies. Then again, I am a strict constructionist. America, according to our Constitution, is supposed to be about a lot of rights that are fast disappearing. I lament this morphing into something that will be unrecognizable as the America I have loved for so long. Religious fundamentalism IS having in impact. What a dilemma! The liberals, who think they know so much better than anyone else what is right and good and just, are being rejected in the wonderfully democratic system that they profess to hold dear. The problem can't be that they have gone off the deep end and turned liberal values into a convoluted series of litmus tests to determine political correctness. Of course not. It must be that 59 million Americans are stupid, bigoted, benighted fools who just won't LISTEN! Pity we can't just toss democracy and let the liberals rule by fiat. They are so much more enlightened than the rest of us. I posted this because we have discussed Pullman, and his writing and beliefs, here on GO, before. Interesting reactions. No, you posted it because you wanted to inject politics where it didn't belong and hoped to stir up some America-bashing where you thought it was safe to do so, on a list with relatively few Americans. Since almost all of the media in the U.S. is owned by right-leaning supporters of Bu$hCo, let's not kid ourselves that there is much of a "liberal" media today in the U.S. Oh, yes indeedy. Like CBS, with its fabricated National Guard memos, and then its little plan to run the Iraq explosives story--repackaged old news, in any event--two days before the election. As the Patriot Act is expanded, the few dissenting voices will probably disappear. Guess we won't hear from you again, then. But of course you know that the Patriot Act merely allows the government, WITH specific judicial approval, to use tools against terrorists that it has long used against drug dealers. America now has, effectively, a one-party system. This may not bode well for future events. I think time will tell if Pullman's assessment is correct in his opinions. And whose fault is that drift to one party? The Democratic Party, instead of trying to address the real concerns of what has always been its base, writes off those in the middle of the country and the South as stupid ideologues. Pity that the party of FDR and LBJ has deteriorated into what we see today. Be that as it may, reports of the death of the Democratic Party are still quite premature. I have faith in the system, even when it elects candidates I don't like. So many liberals seem to have none, with all their recent weeping and gnashing of teeth about the election results. This is a democracy and a republic; we went to the polls and elected our president--so deal with it. You know something? I really wouldn't have bothered to respond if Pullman had merely bashed Bush. But his idiocy in equating the "Christian right" with "Islamic fundamentalists" is simply too much to allow to go unanswered. It's the worst kind of garbage. That's all I'm going to say for now. -- Eleanor ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) The Cherry Ames Page, http://www.cherryamespage.com Authors and Books for Children, http://www.elliemik.com Refined Ladies, http://www.refinedladies.com -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm
Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
Liberals aren't the ones who refused access to Bu$h campaign rallies to anyone who might express an opposing view. Liberals did not pen protesters up far away from where the President of the United States, who is supposed to be representing us all, was speaking, on numerous occasions. America, according to our Constitution, is supposed to be about a lot of rights that are fast disappearing. I lament this morphing into something that will be unrecognizable as the America I have loved for so long. Religious fundamentalism IS having in impact. I posted this because we have discussed Pullman, and his writing and beliefs, here on GO, before. Interesting reactions. Since almost all of the media in the U.S. is owned by right-leaning supporters of Bu$hCo, let's not kid ourselves that there is much of a "liberal" media today in the U.S. As the Patriot Act is expanded, the few dissenting voices will probably disappear. America now has, effectively, a one-party system. This may not bode well for future events. I think time will tell if Pullman's assessment is correct in his opinions. --- Sarah Preston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i quite agree. its ironic how illiberal many liberals are - you're only > allowed your right to your opinion if it agrees with their viewpoint, > otherwise you are condemned as a bigoted rightwing fundmentalist. look at > how the new EU commission was made back down on nominating a man who didn't > agree with the liberal agenda and wasn't afraid to say so. In America he'd > have got elected for holding the same opinions. Last week when quite a > number of people in Ireland complained in the newspaper letters column about > an offensive and blasphemous so-called comedian on publicly funded tv, they > were the ones being torn to shreds in the 'liberal' media for daring to > criticise him or be upset by it, and as for an apology being offered for any > offence caused, you must be joking. > sarah > > - Original Message - > From: "Eleanor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Deborah A. Fleming" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:03 PM > Subject: Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h > > > > This is absolute garbage. This kind of hysterical demonization of anyone > > who doesn't march in lockstep with the liberal viewpoint is exactly the > > reason the liberals lost the election. > > > > > > > > At 10:45 AM 11/8/2004, Deborah A. Fleming wrote: > > >Probably the best assessment of our new, bipartisan kind of pResident > came > > >from > > >England. Children's fantasy writer Phillip Pullman, author of the trilogy > "His > > >Dark Materials," said that Bush would make a perfect Kids' Fantasy > Villain. > > > > > >"He would fit right in. Bush has this baying certainty and has imposed > this > > >fervent zealotry," said Pullman whose books have been condemned by church > > >groups for attacking organized religion. > > > > > >"The Christian right in America is the mirror image of the Islamic > > >fundamentalists," he added. > > > > > >Source: http://mkanejeeves.com/index.php?p=80 > > >(an Internet blog) > > >-- > > > > > >Girlsown mailing list > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >For self-administration and access to archives see > > > http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown > > >For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm > > > > -- > > Eleanor ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > The Cherry Ames Page, http://www.cherryamespage.com > > Authors and Books for Children, http://www.elliemik.com > > Refined Ladies, http://www.refinedladies.com > > > > -- > > > > Girlsown mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For self-administration and access to archives see > > http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown > > For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm > > -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm
Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
i quite agree. its ironic how illiberal many liberals are - you're only allowed your right to your opinion if it agrees with their viewpoint, otherwise you are condemned as a bigoted rightwing fundmentalist. look at how the new EU commission was made back down on nominating a man who didn't agree with the liberal agenda and wasn't afraid to say so. In America he'd have got elected for holding the same opinions. Last week when quite a number of people in Ireland complained in the newspaper letters column about an offensive and blasphemous so-called comedian on publicly funded tv, they were the ones being torn to shreds in the 'liberal' media for daring to criticise him or be upset by it, and as for an apology being offered for any offence caused, you must be joking. sarah - Original Message - From: "Eleanor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Deborah A. Fleming" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h > This is absolute garbage. This kind of hysterical demonization of anyone > who doesn't march in lockstep with the liberal viewpoint is exactly the > reason the liberals lost the election. > > > > At 10:45 AM 11/8/2004, Deborah A. Fleming wrote: > >Probably the best assessment of our new, bipartisan kind of pResident came > >from > >England. Children's fantasy writer Phillip Pullman, author of the trilogy "His > >Dark Materials," said that Bush would make a perfect Kids' Fantasy Villain. > > > >"He would fit right in. Bush has this baying certainty and has imposed this > >fervent zealotry," said Pullman whose books have been condemned by church > >groups for attacking organized religion. > > > >"The Christian right in America is the mirror image of the Islamic > >fundamentalists," he added. > > > >Source: http://mkanejeeves.com/index.php?p=80 > >(an Internet blog) > >-- > > > >Girlsown mailing list > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >For self-administration and access to archives see > > http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown > >For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm > > -- > Eleanor ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > The Cherry Ames Page, http://www.cherryamespage.com > Authors and Books for Children, http://www.elliemik.com > Refined Ladies, http://www.refinedladies.com > > -- > > Girlsown mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For self-administration and access to archives see > http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown > For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm
Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
- Original Message - From: "Eleanor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Deborah A. Fleming" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h > This is absolute garbage. This kind of hysterical demonization of anyone > who doesn't march in lockstep with the liberal viewpoint is exactly the > reason the liberals lost the election. > > > > At 10:45 AM 11/8/2004, Deborah A. Fleming wrote: > >Probably the best assessment of our new, bipartisan kind of pResident came > >from > >England. Children's fantasy writer Phillip Pullman, author of the trilogy "His > >Dark Materials," said that Bush would make a perfect Kids' Fantasy Villain. > Anyone who wants to find out more about Pullman's views on America might be interested in this recent article by him about the power of reading - http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1343733,00.html BTW our liberals must be very different from American ones since ours are known more for their cardigans than hysteria. I think I like the sound of yours though. Nicky Nicky -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm
Re: [GO] GO: Interesting Phillip Pullman quote re: Bu$h
This is absolute garbage. This kind of hysterical demonization of anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with the liberal viewpoint is exactly the reason the liberals lost the election. At 10:45 AM 11/8/2004, Deborah A. Fleming wrote: Probably the best assessment of our new, bipartisan kind of pResident came from England. Children's fantasy writer Phillip Pullman, author of the trilogy "His Dark Materials," said that Bush would make a perfect Kids' Fantasy Villain. "He would fit right in. Bush has this baying certainty and has imposed this fervent zealotry," said Pullman whose books have been condemned by church groups for attacking organized religion. "The Christian right in America is the mirror image of the Islamic fundamentalists," he added. Source: http://mkanejeeves.com/index.php?p=80 (an Internet blog) -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm -- Eleanor ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) The Cherry Ames Page, http://www.cherryamespage.com Authors and Books for Children, http://www.elliemik.com Refined Ladies, http://www.refinedladies.com -- Girlsown mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] For self-administration and access to archives see http://home.it.net.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/girlsown For FAQs see http://www.club-web.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/girlsown/faq-0.htm
