Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] Harrassment on this list

Ian Lance Taylor skribis: > nipponm...@firemail.cc writes: > >> I'm not on this list to see a do-nothing guy foment all day and night >> filling up my inbox. Ruben: If you want to sue, sue. You're a Jew, you >> know lots of lawyers. Stop fomenting and keveching and just file your >> suit. > > As

Re: The General Public Licence (GPL) as the basic governance tool

Hi, Eli Zaretskii skribis: >> From: Ludovic Courtès [...] >> Quoth RMS¹: >> >> GNU package maintainers have committed to do work to maintain and add >> to the GNU system, but not anything beyond that. We have never >> pressed contributors to endors

Re: Harrassment on this list

Andreas Enge skribis: > The reason I have been insisting is that inaction towards this kind of > behaviour kills communication in the GNU project - if victims of verbal > abuse are expected to change their opinions to stop the name calling, > or are invited to be less susceptible, they will

Re: Endorsing the GNU social contract

Hey Han-Wen, Han-Wen Nienhuys skribis: > Per the request offered by email, I am offering my support for the GNU > social contract. > > I, maintainer of package LilyPond, endorse version 1.0 of the GNU > Social Contract, available at https://wiki.gnu.tools/gnu:social-contract. Noted, thank you!

Re: Endorsing a GNU social contract

Hi, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice skribis: > As lowly co-consp^Wmaintainer of GNU Guix I endorse version 1.0 of the > GNU Social Contract as proposed here[0]. Noted, thank you Tobias! Ludo’.

Re: The General Public Licence (GPL) as the basic governance tool

Hello Eli, Eli Zaretskii skribis: > I always thought that maintaining a GNU project according to the > guidelines I was communicated when I was appointed _is_ upholding GNU > values, that it's all there is in upholding them, as applied to my job > as the maintainer. But you seem to be saying

Re: Why the "social contract" should not be endorsed

Hi Alex, Alex Taylor skribis: > Recently we have been "invited" to approve a thing which is being called > the "social contract". I don’t think you have been invited to anything since you’re not in the ‘maintainers’ file. I’m fine with you expressing your opinion, but please keep in mind that

Re: State of the GNUnion 2020

Dmitry Gutov skribis: > On 20.02.2020 15:12, Ludovic Courtès wrote: >> As I see it, the point of the Social Contract you’re referring to is a >> commitment to work hand in hand with our natural allies. These could be >> projects that build software the GNU system or

Re: The General Public Licence (GPL) as the basic governance tool

Hi Dmitry, Dmitry Gutov skribis: > On 20.02.2020 11:47, Ludovic Courtès wrote: >> I think it’s important for GNU hackers as a group to be able to reflect >> on the project’s procedures and discuss whether/how to improve them. > > So what GNU hackers who disagree with you

Endorsement of the Social Contract 1.0

Hello, I, co-maintainer of GNU Guix, GNU Guile, the GNU Shepherd, and GNU Guile-RPC, and a contributor to other GNU packages, endorse version 1.0 of the GNU Social Contract, available at: https://wiki.gnu.tools/gnu:social-contract This endorsement means that I believe in the values stated in

Re: State of the GNUnion 2020

Hi, Dmitry Gutov skribis: > I figured your "collaborates with the broader free software community" > item was about how non-GNU free software are a "good thing" still > (e.g. LLVM has the right to exist, and we should interface with it > properly as well), but apparently not. As I see it, the

Re: The General Public Licence (GPL) as the basic governance tool

Hi Alfred, a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) skribis: >As a GNU user, you may not know it but GNU maintainers do not currently >agree to uphold the free software values that we care about; they merely >agree to more specific GNU policies. > > It is intentional, since the GNU project

Re: The General Public Licence (GPL) as the basic governance tool

Hi Christophe, Christophe Poncy skribis: > Simple user here. > > On 2/16/20 20:28 PM, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: >> Of course it is a personal choice for every one of us whether or not to >> uphold these basic GNU values. I know that GNU maintainers are not >> required to adhere or uphold even

Re: Endorsement of the GNU Social Contract

Hi Christian, Christian Grothoff skribis: > You have now, for the second time, send me a message as part of a > mass-mailing to a list to which you added me without my consent. This > is spam and illegal under European law, as the data subject never > consented to you processing the data. The

Re: Endorsing version 1.0 of the GNU Social Contract

Hi Frederic, Mark Wielaard skribis: > On Mon, 2020-02-10 at 12:31 +0100, fredoma...@free.fr wrote: >> As far as I can see, there has not been modification to the proposed >> GNU Social Contract, and I happy to re-iterate my support to it. > > There were several pieces of feedback that were

Re: Moderation

Hi Mike & Brandon, Ludovic Courtès skribis: > A large part of the traffic over the last few weeks was repeated > ad-hominem attacks, always by the same people. > > This is a violation of the list’s stated policy at > <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discus

Re: GSC 1.0 endorsement

Hi Werner, Werner Koch skribis: > I, maintainer of the packages GnuPG and Libgcrypt, > endorse version 1.0 of the GNU Social Contract, > available at . ACK, thanks for your support! Ludo’. signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: Proposals for the new GNU/FSF relationship

Dear FSF, In response to your call for input regarding the future of the FSF/GNU relationship, Mark Wielaard posted proposals back in December on behalf of several GNU maintainers: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2019-12/msg00026.html To date, we have not received any

Re: Endorsing version 1.0 of the GNU Social Contract

Hello Frederic, fredomatic skribis: > I, Frederic Y. Bois, maintainer of package GNU MCSim, endorse version > 1.0 of the GNU Social Contract, available at > . Thank you for your message. As stated in the email you received, we are still on a review

Re: about the GNU promise

Hi Benno, Benno Schulenberg skribis: > Anyway... I've carefully read https://wiki.gnu.tools/gnu:social-contract > (Last modified: 2020/01/22 11:55), and here are my comments. Thanks for taking the time to read it and to comment it. > Please don't call the document a Social Contract. The

Re: [r...@gnu.org: What's GNU -- and what's not]

Hello, a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) skribis: > From: "Richard Stallman (Chief GNUisance)" > Subject: What's GNU -- and what's not > To: r...@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 18:26:51 -0500 (2 days, 11 hours, 43 minutes ago) > > The GNU Project is sending this message to each GNU package >

Re: Cause for bans

Hi John, John Darrington skribis: > After all, the reason that these proposed "social contracts", "codes of > conduct" > and their ilk have caused so many people to become very angry, is because of > the way that they call for persons to be expelled if they disagree with > whoever > is in

Re: Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new wiki.gnu.tools.

Hi Alfred, a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) skribis: > You are misusing the trust given by the GNU project by harvesting > member information and using it for non-GNU purposes. Nobody gave you > the right to use that information, in any shape or form. We didn’t harvest anything. I think it’s

Re: Feedback on the GNU Social contract and new wiki.gnu.tools.

Hi Andreas, "Andreas R." skribis: >> we have created a new wiki for use by GNU Maintainers. >> >>https://wiki.gnu.tools > > Since it's obviously not an official GNU wiki would it be possible to change > references of "the wiki for GNU Maintainers" to "a wiki for GNU maintainers" > and add a

Moderation

Dear moderators, A large part of the traffic over the last few weeks was repeated ad-hominem attacks, always by the same people. This is a violation of the list’s stated policy at . It gives a poor image of the project and undoubtedly

Re: posts by non-members

Hi Brandon, Brandon Invergo skribis: > Ludovic Courtès writes: > >> I’ve subscribed now, but I do find it a bit inconvenient; it’s also one >> of the few public GNU mailing lists I know of (perhaps the only one) >> where posting is now restricted to members. > &g

Re: posts by non-members

Hi again, Brandon Invergo skribis: > On Fri, 2020-01-03 at 13:53 +0100, Mark Wielaard wrote: >> >> In general it is somewhat inconvenient if you can only post to the >> list from the address with which you are subscribed. > > In practice, with only one or two exceptions from what I have seen

Re: A summary of some open discussions

Hi Brandon, Brandon Invergo skribis: > Mark Wielaard writes: > >>> There is no such thing as a FSF steward, GNU maintainers are appointed >>> by RMS/GAC. The FSF has no say in the topic. You've keept >>> misrepresenting this over and over again. >> >> This is just a legal technicallity. The

Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines

Hello, "Andreas R." skribis: > This writing, "GNU - Principles and Guidelines", is based on Andreas Elke's > preliminary version > (draft posted on 1 Nov 2019) of a general and concise document that states > some guidelines ("GNU Social Contract") > which came with a request for feedback.

Re: GNU - Principles and Guidelines

Hello, "Andreas R." skribis: > This writing, "GNU - Principles and Guidelines", is based on Andreas Elke's > preliminary version > (draft posted on 1 Nov 2019) of a general and concise document that states > some guidelines ("GNU Social Contract") > which came with a request for feedback.

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hello! Mark Wielaard skribis: > Yes, I believe we are nitpicking at this point. And we do seem to > agree. But if we are nitpicking anyway, then I would keep it short and > to the point. Shorter is better: > > The GNU Project adopts policies that encourage and enable developers > to

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi Mark, Mark Wielaard skribis: > (It looks like your message never made it to the list, so quoting a bit > more extensively to make sure everything you wrote is also in this > message.) Oh, weird. > On Fri, 2019-12-20 at 12:28 +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote: >> Mark Wielaar

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi Mark! Mark Wielaard skribis: > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 03:33:20PM +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote: [...] >> I think copyleft is a “salient feature” of GNU, compared to many other >> free software projects, and indeed, GNU has its own licenses for that >> purpose. So to

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi Mark, Mark Wielaard skribis: > I think this is a really good starting point for getting feedback from > other GNU maintainers, developers, stakeholders to see whether they > would agree with this GNU mission statement. And discuss with the > broader community whether it actually says what we

Re: Setting up a wiki for GNU Project volunteers?

Hi Brandon, Brandon Invergo skribis: >> Where could we host a wiki like this without causing confusion with >> official project content? > > Unless that decision changes, any wiki discussed here is necessarily > unofficial and any proposed content is in no way implicitly endorsed or > supported

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi! I don’t think I replied before, but this last version LGTM! I have nothing against adding “5. Reserved for future use”. :-) Thanks, Ludo’. Andreas Enge skribis: > On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 09:46:56PM +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote: >> Thanks, Andreas, for this new version! Some

Re: Setting up a wiki for GNU Project volunteers?

Hello! "Carlos O'Donell" skribis: > In researching this kind of wiki setup I have discussed the issue with > various GNU Maintainers and the consensus seems to be that such a > system should have the following qualities: > - Based on a VCS e.g. git > - Uses a supported wiki platform e.g.

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hello, "Kaz Kylheku (gnu-misc-discuss)" <936-846-2...@kylheku.com> skribis: > By the way, "contract" seems like a misnomer, because a contract is > a signed-off agreement between two parties (or more) in which they > exchange something of value; the contract requires a contribution > from at

Re: GNU Kind Communication Guidelines versus social contract or Codes of Conduct

Hi Florian, Florian Weimer skribis: > You are very, very wrong. We are trying very hard to stay within GNU, > but the feedback we have received so far on GNU mail lists suggests > that we are not wanted here. There is a part of GNU that includes myself that really wants you (you personally,

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi Brandon, Brandon Invergo skribis: > Given that nothing has changed in how GNU is being run, it appears that > the cart is being placed well before the horse. However, I would be > shocked if they didn't already expect rms not to step down and therefore > to reject their Social Contract

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi all, Thanks, Andreas, for this new version! Some comments below. a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) skribis: > What is the exact _goal_ of this text? We discussed it several times before, notably in these messages: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2019-10/msg00011.html

Re: list moderation

Hi Brandon, Brandon Invergo skribis: > Andy Wingo writes: > >>> Who is “we” in “we have decided” above? >> >> I don't think this question has been answered. Brandon, could you >> clarify please? > >>> Can you explain how “moderation was being used in a biased manner”, >>> giving specific

Re: list moderation

Hi Brandon, Brandon Invergo skribis: > Ludovic Courtès writes: > >> A bit more than 24 hours later, two things have become clear to me: that >> Mark and Carlos were indeed doing a good moderation job, and that by not >> doing any moderation, you’ve opened the

Re: list moderation

Hi again Brandon, Ludovic Courtès skribis: > I think Mark and Carlos have done a great job. I am happy that this > list was host to constructive discussions and not as toxic as the > private GNU lists. I am concerned that about the ability to continue > discussing constructively g

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi Andreas, Andreas Enge skribis: > These are good points. I wrote "that respect users' freedom" everywhere, > and spoke a bit more vaguely of "systems", as well as dropped all references > to computers. Given that the document is aimed to be valid longterm, there > should indeed be some

Re: list moderation

Hi Brandon, Brandon Invergo skribis: > For the past month or so, every message to the list has been subject to > moderation, so-called "emergency moderation". It has become clear that > the moderation was being used in a biased manner. We have decided to > remove Mark and Carlos as

Re: to what extent is the gnu project philosophical?

Hi Jason, Jason Self skribis: > This has been one benefit to the GNU Project having the BDFL model, as > some other projects also have. There's been one person to keep the GNU > Project on point with regard to these social, ethical, political, and > moral issues rather than having them get

Re: to what extent is the gnu project philosophical?

Hi Andy, Andy Wingo skribis: > The realm of ideas pertains to the FSF: theory, organization, advocacy, > and so on. > > GNU, on the other hand, is about action in the software domain: the > construction of an ever-growing software commons, putting the theory of > the FSF into practice, and

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi Andreas, Andreas Enge skribis: > What is missing, however, is, right at the beginning, a statement of mission; > I think this is so because you essentially assumed it was understood as > granted... I would put this as the very first paragraph, before the bullet > list with more detailed

Re: A GNU “social contract”?

Hi Alfred, a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) skribis: > What GNU maintainers agree to is very small, it is only to follow the > policies that we have. They don't need to go beyond that, which is > what "uphold" would imply. Exactly, that’s the change we’re proposing: members of the project

Re: “GNU cares for computer user freedom beyond software”

Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> skribis: > Ludovic Courtès wrote: >> * GNU cares for computer user freedom beyond software > > Does the title reflect well what is under it? Among SaaS(S), nonconsently > installed (java)scripts, DRM and surveillance, only surveill

Re: “GNU software is distributed under the terms of [copyleft] licenses”

Hi, "Carlos O'Donell" skribis: > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Mark Wielaard wrote: >> >> On Sat, 2019-10-26 at 02:35 +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote: >> > Ludovic Courtès wrote: >> > > * GNU licenses uphold user freedom >> > > >&

A GNU “social contract”?

Hi, Mark Wielaard skribis: > Right. I think what is being objected to is a GNU Social Contract that > would contain something like this part of the Debian Social Contract > https://www.debian.org/social_contract Looking at the form of Debian’s Social Contract, its conciseness and clarity, I

Re: What is governance and to whom would it extend to in the GNU Project?

Hi Carlos, "Carlos O'Donell" skribis: > A governance model would apply to all of the people who are part of > the GNU Project, and so discussing these two points makes sense to me. > I look forward to any feedback about this. Not surprisingly, I agree that GNU could benefit from a better

Re: Turning GNU into a bottom-up organization

Hello, Mark Wielaard skribis: > For my own GNU project (some years ago) we did use savannah, but we > had to give up on lists.gnu.org because it just didn't scale to the > volume of email that we produced. Savannah didn't provide a wiki, so we > set one up ourselves, etc. We had setup our own

Re: Turning GNU into a bottom-up organization

Hi Mark, Mark Wielaard skribis: > Information For Maintainers of GNU Software: > https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/ > > GNU Coding Standards: > https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/ > > For the basic ideas of GNU and Free Software: > https://www.gnu.org/gnu/the-gnu-project.html >