Re: Web versions, thoughts

2021-04-04 Thread Parodper
O 02/04/21 ás 21:13, Zany And Crazy escribiu: > Porting something to the web is not only rewriting from >scratch in JavaScript Isn't WebAssembly a way to make C++ code run in the browser? I thought that's what it was. But code is not the only thing that forms a program. There is also the

Re: Web versions, thoughts

2021-04-04 Thread Jacob Bachmeyer
Zany And Crazy wrote: Porting something to the web is not only rewriting from >scratch in JavaScript Isn't WebAssembly a way to make C++ code run in the browser? I thought that's what it was. The API available to WebAssembly code is radically different from the API for native code,

Re: Web versions, thoughts

2021-04-04 Thread Jean Louis
* Zany And Crazy [2021-04-02 22:14]: > >Porting something to the web is not only rewriting from >scratch in > >JavaScript > > Isn't WebAssembly a way to make C++ code run in the browser? I thought > that's what it was. How I have understood from reading, it is not hard to modify or prepare

Re: Web versions, thoughts

2021-04-04 Thread shulie
On 4/1/21 12:31 AM, Zany And Crazy wrote: > I stopped reading after about the 3rd or 4th > post, so I have no idea what you guys are saying. 30 years have > passed, Linux and all it's software's market share stands at what, 2% usenet isn't working any more for you

Re: Web versions, thoughts

2021-04-02 Thread Zany And Crazy
>Porting something to the web is not only rewriting from >scratch in JavaScript Isn't WebAssembly a way to make C++ code run in the browser? I thought that's what it was.

Re: Web versions, thoughts

2021-04-02 Thread Parodper
O 01/04/21 ás 06:31, Zany And Crazy escribiu: OK, I posted that post about putting software on the web because I thought it's a cool idea. I stopped reading after about the 3rd or 4th post, so I have no idea what you guys are saying. 30 years have passed, Linux and all it's software's market shar

Web versions, thoughts

2021-03-31 Thread Zany And Crazy
OK, I posted that post about putting software on the web because I thought it's a cool idea. I stopped reading after about the 3rd or 4th post, so I have no idea what you guys are saying. 30 years have passed, Linux and all it's software's market share stands at what, 2%? The world has moved on -

Re: How to ensure not to fall into new Webassembly trap - was Re: Web versions

2021-03-20 Thread Richard Stallman
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] We treat WebAssembly code just like minified code. It is not source code, so it ough

Re: Web versions

2021-03-18 Thread shulie
On 3/16/21 1:41 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > Generalization is not good. generalizations are 100% valid means of evaluating groups of things and individal facts.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-18 Thread shulie
On 3/16/21 6:11 AM, Schanzenbach, Martin wrote: > Obviously the OP was a tongue-in-cheek kind of question. But this should not > prevent us from > lucidly reflecting on the topic Actually, it is a reason, and in addition, there is no way to lucidly reflecting on an action that is patentedly in

Re: Web versions

2021-03-18 Thread shulie
On 3/16/21 6:55 AM, Jean Louis wrote: > Emacs may not be equivalent to common web browser, but it does have > web browser built-in, yeah so?  Did you think we don't know that?  It doesn't dowload code and run it without notice.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-18 Thread Jean Louis
* Jacob Bachmeyer [2021-03-18 01:32]: > > I would like to have Emacs in Webassembly. Somebody is already working > > in that direction with Emacs fork: https://github.com/emacs-ng/emacs-ng > > > > Regarding "web security policies, I would not know what it means. > > Rules like the same-origin po

Re: Web versions

2021-03-17 Thread Jacob Bachmeyer
Jean Louis wrote: * Jacob Bachmeyer [2021-03-17 05:16]: Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: 2. Browsers do not offer POSIX API to JS/WebAssembly for very goodreasons. The other issue is that it wouldn't really be an operating system, if it runs in a web browser. Which kinda is the wh

Re: How to ensure not to fall into new Webassembly trap - was Re: Web versions

2021-03-17 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-17 16:33]: >>What we can do in GNU in regards to new technologies considered trap, >>as users will be lured to launch non-free software without possibility >>to verify it is to expand or extend the LibreJS to verify Webassembly >>programs

Re: How to ensure not to fall into new Webassembly trap - was Re: Web versions

2021-03-17 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
>What we can do in GNU in regards to new technologies considered trap, >as users will be lured to launch non-free software without possibility >to verify it is to expand or extend the LibreJS to verify Webassembly >programs for their licenses. > > It is easier, an

Re: How to ensure not to fall into new Webassembly trap - was Re: Web versions

2021-03-17 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-17 12:04]: >What we can do in GNU in regards to new technologies considered trap, >as users will be lured to launch non-free software without possibility >to verify it is to expand or extend the LibreJS to verify Webassembly >programs for their licenses.

Re: How to ensure not to fall into new Webassembly trap - was Re: Web versions

2021-03-17 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
What we can do in GNU in regards to new technologies considered trap, as users will be lured to launch non-free software without possibility to verify it is to expand or extend the LibreJS to verify Webassembly programs for their licenses. It is easier, and far more practical to recomm

How to ensure not to fall into new Webassembly trap - was Re: Web versions

2021-03-17 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-17 11:26]: >In that particular example I have been checking programs that are free >software as they are hosted on Github with free software licenses. I >gave you hyperlinks as references, you could verify it yourself. > > No, I (and really, it is not about

Re: Web versions

2021-03-17 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
In that particular example I have been checking programs that are free software as they are hosted on Github with free software licenses. I gave you hyperlinks as references, you could verify it yourself. No, I (and really, it is not about you or me here -- it is about the casual user) ca

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
* Jacob Bachmeyer [2021-03-17 05:16]: > Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > >2. Browsers do not offer POSIX API to JS/WebAssembly for very > > goodreasons. > > > > The other issue is that it wouldn't really be an operating system, if > > it runs in a web browser. Which kinda is the whol point

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
* Jacob Bachmeyer [2021-03-17 05:09]: > Jean Louis wrote: > > * Jacob Bachmeyer [2021-03-16 10:30]: > > >3. Web apps stored on "the cloud" are bad because they often do not > > > respect the user's freedoms, as even if the software is under Free license > > > terms, technical issues can make

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-16 21:12]: >Webassembly runs in the browser, I click on the URL and >application is in the browser, > > And thats the problem. How do you check that the program you just ran > (pretense) is free software? In that particular example I have been checking progr

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jacob Bachmeyer
Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: 2. Browsers do not offer POSIX API to JS/WebAssembly for very good reasons. The other issue is that it wouldn't really be an operating system, if it runs in a web browser. Which kinda is the whol point of the GNU project. :-) The GNU project also provide

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jacob Bachmeyer
Jean Louis wrote: * Jacob Bachmeyer [2021-03-16 10:30]: 3. Web apps stored on "the cloud" are bad because they often do not respect the user's freedoms, as even if the software is under Free license terms, technical issues can make running a modified version difficult or impossible.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
[...] I click on the URL and application is in the browser ... I think that sentence sums up the overall problem. In Emacs, since you gave that as an example, when you install a package, the list is curated. Same with your GNU/Linux system. When you copy a snippet of Emacs lisp code, you wil

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
It is free software and specific use example. In those examples I cannot see anything bad. You show one example, when the majority do not follow that example. It is the overal practise of how "web applications" work that is the problem, not unicorn instances that just happen to be OK. Javas

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
Webassembly runs in the browser, I click on the URL and application is in the browser, And thats the problem. How do you check that the program you just ran (pretense) is free software? When you download something, you have not executed the program yet, and can make an informed decision

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-16 19:11]: > Nobody has argued that there are no other models where > Javascrip/Webassembly could be used in an ethical fashion, but a > discussion that talks about anything, and everything will end up in > nothing. > > The way that Javascript, and Webassembly is inten

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-16 20:17]: >I have downloaded so much software in last 24 hours as I was >installing new OS (Parabola), so I have downloaded it from some server >and I run it. > > How is that related the topic of Javascript / Webassembly and porting > the GNU system to it?

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
I have downloaded so much software in last 24 hours as I was installing new OS (Parabola), so I have downloaded it from some server and I run it. How is that related the topic of Javascript / Webassembly and porting the GNU system to it? How is this similar to how Javascript / Webassembl

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
2. Browsers do not offer POSIX API to JS/WebAssembly for very good reasons. The other issue is that it wouldn't really be an operating system, if it runs in a web browser. Which kinda is the whol point of the GNU project. :-) 3. Web apps stored on "the cloud" are bad because

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
Please use a kinder tone on this list, your language is simply not acceptable here.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
Nobody has argued that there are no other models where Javascrip/Webassembly could be used in an ethical fashion, but a discussion that talks about anything, and everything will end up in nothing. The way that Javascript, and Webassembly is intended to be use is the problem.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
>Or collaborative PDF annotation environment: >https://pspdfkit.com/guides/web/current/pspdfkit-for-web/getting-started/ This reference below is most probably not free software, I have assumed it to be so as I found reference on Github in the collection of various free software reference, mis

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
* Jacob Bachmeyer [2021-03-16 10:30]: >3. Web apps stored on "the cloud" are bad because they often do not > respect the user's freedoms, as even if the software is under Free license > terms, technical issues can make running a modified version difficult or > impossible. Just because there

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
* aviva [2021-03-16 05:55]: > On 3/15/21 6:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > > That is one good example. You can edit notes and save it, all locally, > > it works offline. > > And why is that good?  Are you lacking a shell? At certain situations on travel I am lacking a computer and I use browser to ha

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jean Louis
* shulie [2021-03-16 11:22]: > On 3/15/21 6:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > > If I download software into Emacs, I run it in Emacs. > > And you need to be told that emacs is not compatable to web borwser .. > but if EMACS was, it wouldl download random code from an unknown source > and run an entire O

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Schanzenbach, Martin
> On 16. Mar 2021, at 06:07, Jacob Bachmeyer wrote: > > Colby Russell wrote: >> On 3/15/21 9:02 PM, Jacob Bachmeyer wrote: > [...] >> > One of the rationales presented to me (off-list) for this was that a >> > WebAssembly port of GNU could be run as a web app and therefore be >> > "always up-to

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread aviva
On 3/16/21 1:07 AM, Jacob Bachmeyer wrote: > > I am beginning to suspect that we have all been trolled yah think?

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 4:26 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > square Richard's call to action >to replace non-free JS with free JS BTW - in this case, Richard is talking about the little snippet garbage that people use as large scale widgets for web bowsers.  THOSE things, since you are running javascript

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 6:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > If I download software into Emacs, I run it in Emacs. https://web.archive.org/web/20010302031109/http://crackmonkey.org/fanmail.html#CHAPTER1

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 4:26 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > Javascript isn't bad, Yes - it is pretty bad which is why we need to do this WHOLE end run around it to protect ourselves.  Turning the browser into apware, frankly sucks,   It is used for tracking, fingerprinting, stealing, and abusing users and the

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 11:04 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > Since you insist on misinterpreting, let me clarify. I am not misinterpreting anything. You do not install anything in a browser that can run an OS.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 11:30 PM, Colby Russell wrote: > It's as if there's a short-circuit in at least half of respondents' > brains that prevents them from engaging in any way without at some point > insisting that this *MUST* involve cloud architecture and SaaS-like web > apps being the central focus. Beca

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 6:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > If I download software into Emacs, I run it in Emacs. And you need to be told that emacs is not compatable to web borwser .. but if EMACS was, it wouldl download random code from an unknown source and run an entire OS in it with full trottle access and net

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 6:15 AM, Jean Louis wrote: > If not, let us not work with hypothetical illusions. Software running in your broswer to take over your computer and creating a security whole is NOT hypothetical, although it WAS when RMS first addressed it.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > The GNU project should promote Free Software in all the ways that the > user can benefit from those freedoms, Correct and that is why this is disqualified out of the gate.  This is broken by design you know like APSX and Outlook and even Java.  The nif

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 11:04 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > "technology is designed to be something". Something in this case is software designed to enslave the user and allow for hackers to take over your computer.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 11:30 PM, Colby Russell wrote: > It is _absurd_ that it takes this much > energy to continually refute this over and over. it is obsurd from the ground up.  Conceptually it is evil.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 11:08 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > GCC has been used to write software that hacks into other people's We are nt talking about GCC... We are talking about running a complete OS in the broswer after loading it from an unsafe source.  NO NO NO.  You DO understand that Browsers were created to

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 11:10 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > It can and it does, and I showed you No sooner than we finally ditch flash and  javabeans and the same bad idea lifts its ugly head AGAIN.  It is a no.  Someone will likely seriously die because of this being implimented.  Stuffing a VM and an OS in a b

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > This is a value judgement on the developer writing the software, not the > technology of the software itself. No.  That value was made when they created the software.  It is the intention of the software itself.  There is nothing nuetral about it.  It is

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 6:08 AM, Jean Louis wrote: > Question of losing control over software that runs on computer must > involve the question "Is the software proprietary?" No.  Richard had been working on this since the new GPL and this issue isn't is it proprietary.  The issue is software as a service t

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 11:05 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > How so? because you are loading unknow code from a proven hostile source and it is running and entire OS ... in your browser.  We are talking a security breach that makes outlook look like trusted entity. Come now.  We are adults.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 7:57 AM, Schanzenbach, Martin wrote: > No, it was not: > > " > ince WebAssembly is now a reality, maybe you guys should get to making the > browser versions of LL your software? > " webassembly needs to be removed from any browser.  It is a security hole if you can an OS in i

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 8:36 AM, Schanzenbach, Martin wrote: > But I think it is important to look at such technology without prejudice. No, you need to have servere prejudice.  It is a bad idea from the ground up, and it is not even an original idea.  And can there be a WORST programming language than javas

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/15/21 11:30 PM, Colby Russell wrote: > Of course not, and it doesn't matter; it wouldn't make sense to expect > it to use those APIs even if they were available.  That would entail > reliance on the local machine's resident system to perform essential > services e.g. to manage the user's files

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread shulie
On 3/14/21 7:57 AM, Schanzenbach, Martin wrote: > This issue is completely unrelated to the technology. It is EXACTLY what the technology is designed to do, so by all means, believe otherwise.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jacob Bachmeyer
DJ Delorie wrote: [...] You are arguing that we should take away a technology from the user, because some people use that technology in ways you disagree with. However, other people use that same technology in other ways. It is not the technology that is evil, it's how it's used that may be evil

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jacob Bachmeyer
Colby Russell wrote: [...] Consider this passage from The JavaScript Trap: If the program is self-contained [...] you can copy it to a file on your machine, modify it, and visit that file with a browser to run it. But that is an unusual case. In particular, consider the irony of it

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jacob Bachmeyer
Colby Russell wrote: On 3/15/21 9:02 PM, Jacob Bachmeyer wrote: [...] > One of the rationales presented to me (off-list) for this was that a > WebAssembly port of GNU could be run as a web app and therefore be > "always up-to-date" Despite quoting the salient parts from The JavaScript Trap, yo

Re: Web versions

2021-03-16 Thread Jacob Bachmeyer
Jean Louis wrote: [...] Question is rather if software is free or if one need proprietary programs to run it in WebAssembly. If there is nothing proprietary, we shall encourage creation of software as WebAssembly is there because some people find it useful, we encourage creation of free softwar

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Colby Russell
On 3/15/21 9:02 PM, Jacob Bachmeyer wrote: > that is not currently technically feasible because WebAssembly does > not offer the APIs that most GNU packages use Of course not, and it doesn't matter; it wouldn't make sense to expect it to use those APIs even if they were available.  That would ent

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread aviva
On 3/15/21 6:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > That is one good example. You can edit notes and save it, all locally, > it works offline. And why is that good?  Are you lacking a shell?

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread aviva
On 3/15/21 7:27 PM, Colby Russell wrote: > that do not conform to their preferred > canard. A canard is a duck and you are a quack.  Experience counts and you have none.  That is also true about logic

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Colby Russell
On 3/15/21 5:26 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > I said, there are now applications (at least I know about them now), > that run quite everything on your computer, through browser. So there > is no server dependency. Please, Jean Louis, heed Alfred's earlier request to focus your comments only on those sc

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-16 00:14]: > Lets try to stick to one topic, and not fan out so much? That is, > running software in a web browser that you download from someone elses > server. I have downloaded so much software in last 24 hours as I was installing new OS (Parabola), so I have downl

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Colby Russell
On 3/15/21 4:06 PM, Jean Louis wrote: > this remains forever on the mailing list [...] you are not anonymous Right. > In Texas [...] events like that could be like US $500 each Wrong. > We are friends here. Wrong. -- Colby Russell

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
Large number of people spawn VPS-es today, they have no idea if it is "free" software and even so, if they hear free they may not know what it means. All they want is to run their Wordpress or other instances. Wordpress would be running on their computer (even if they are borrowing hardwa

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Jean Louis
* Colby Russell [2021-03-15 23:53]: > On 3/15/21 3:26 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote > > Nobody claimed anything like that, so why make the absurd claim? > > Go yourself. Colby you are losing temper, and this remains forever on the mailing list. In some countries this type of communication is o

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-15 22:43]: >I just cannot see clearly how is Javascript trap relevant to >WebAssembly as the Javascript trap is about proprietary software. > > You could replace Javascript with Webassembly and the Javsscript trap > would make an equal important point. The rea

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Colby Russell
On 3/15/21 3:26 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote Nobody claimed anything like that, so why make the absurd claim? Go fuck yourself. -- Colby Russell

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
Asking someone to "knock it off" isn't very kind. So a small reminder that this list applies GNU Kind Communications Guidelines (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.en.html).

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
Furthermore, how are we supposed to square Richard's call to action to replace non-free JS with free JS, if JS is to be understood to be inherently bad (as in the picture painted in this discussion)? Nobody claimed anything like that, so why make the absurd claim? Javascript isn't bad, i

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Colby Russell
Furthermore, how are we supposed to square Richard's call to action to replace non-free JS with free JS, if JS is to be understood to be inherently bad (as in the picture painted in this discussion)? In fact, The JavaScript Trap

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
I just cannot see clearly how is Javascript trap relevant to WebAssembly as the Javascript trap is about proprietary software. You could replace Javascript with Webassembly and the Javsscript trap would make an equal important point. The reason why the title mentions a trap is that they can

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
... The JavaScript Trap is a (reasonable) argument against trends of modern web apps, i.e., a software architecture relying on code-on-demand that lies under someone else's control, esp. when that software is not freely licensed.  Which is exactly the same argument that can be made f

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Colby Russell
On 3/15/21 9:47 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > Again, the Javascript trap is a good place to start ... No, it isn't.  The JavaScript Trap is a (reasonable) argument against trends of modern web apps, i.e., a software architecture relying on code-on-demand that lies under someone else's control, es

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Jean Louis
* Alfred M. Szmidt [2021-03-15 17:48]: >> Or maybe they will, but that doesn't mean it is something the GNU >> project should promote. > >The GNU project should promote Free Software in all the ways that the >user can benefit from those freedoms, regardless of what technology >

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Jean Louis
* aviva [2021-03-15 17:02]: > On 3/15/21 6:15 AM, Jean Louis wrote: > > Is there a person that was hurt? > > When software is hijacked, people get hurt.  google it yourself. As side notes, I do understand your intentions and from that viewpoint we are on the same side. We all support GNU and fr

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Colby Russell
On 3/15/21 9:47 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > If you are shipping an operating system, like GNU, you don't need to > run it in a web browser.  That is a good thing. If you are going to represent your comment as a response to something I've written, then please actually respond to it.  Otherwise,

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
If you are shipping an operating system, like GNU, you don't need to run it in a web browser. That is a good thing.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
> Or maybe they will, but that doesn't mean it is something the GNU > project should promote. The GNU project should promote Free Software in all the ways that the user can benefit from those freedoms, regardless of what technology underlies those freedoms. If WebAssembly or Javasc

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
You are arguing that we should take away a technology from the user, The GNU project has often made decisions on not using a specific technology, or trying to get around the problem in ways to promote user freedom. because some people use that technology in ways you disagree with. Howeve

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread aviva
On 3/15/21 6:15 AM, Jean Louis wrote: > Is there a person that was hurt? When software is hijacked, people get hurt.  google it yourself.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Jean Louis
* aviva [2021-03-15 05:52]: > On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > > If WebAssembly or Javascript can be used in a > > way that honors the four freedoms, > > But it can't...period.  And in the real world , it doesn't.  We don't > promote software that hurts peopleperiod. We shall also be

Re: Web versions

2021-03-15 Thread Jean Louis
* aviva [2021-03-15 05:51]: > On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > > Thus, in a way you are arguing AGAINST the > > user's freedom. > > No - I am arguing against creating a system where you lose control of > your computer and it is over run by hackers because of poor deisgn.  > NOTHING can exc

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread DJ Delorie
aviva writes: > On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: >> If WebAssembly or Javascript can be used in a >> way that honors the four freedoms, > > But it can't...period.  And in the real world , it doesn't.  We don't > promote software that hurts peopleperiod. It can and it does, and I showed

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread DJ Delorie
aviva writes: > On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: >> Thus, in a way you are arguing AGAINST the >> user's freedom. > > No - I am arguing against creating a system where you lose control of > your computer and it is over run by hackers because of poor deisgn.  > NOTHING can excuse that, GCC ha

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread DJ Delorie
aviva writes: > On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: >> This application totally honors the four freedoms, > > No - it doesn't actually.  It fails value one that the user is in > control of there system. How so? I downloaded the sources and ran them on my own system. How am I not in control?

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread DJ Delorie
>>> technology which is designed to be slaveware and dependent un insecure >> This is a value judgement > > > Right, being a slave is bad.  That IS a value judgement.  Values - that > those are good.  Get some! Since you insist on misinterpreting, let me clarify. The value judgement is that the

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread aviva
On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > Discouraging the > technology itself is, IMHO, outside the FSF's scope. Your opinion has been heard and its been explained already to you that it is wrong.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread aviva
On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > If WebAssembly or Javascript can be used in a > way that honors the four freedoms, But it can't...period.  And in the real world , it doesn't.  We don't promote software that hurts peopleperiod.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread aviva
On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > Thus, in a way you are arguing AGAINST the > user's freedom. No - I am arguing against creating a system where you lose control of your computer and it is over run by hackers because of poor deisgn.  NOTHING can excuse that,

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread aviva
On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > This application totally honors the four freedoms, No - it doesn't actually.  It fails value one that the user is in control of there system.

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread aviva
On 3/14/21 6:18 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > shulie writes: >> technology which is designed to be slaveware and dependent un insecure > This is a value judgement Right, being a slave is bad.  That IS a value judgement.  Values - that those are good.  Get some!

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread aviva
On 3/14/21 6:47 PM, Colby Russell wrote: > > The problems inherent to traditional web apps are neither here nor > there. that is wrong. 

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread aviva
On 3/14/21 6:47 PM, Colby Russell wrote: >> > You have your thumb on the scale.  The context is a copy of the GNU > operating system built to run on the platform that is universally > available to essentially everyone in the world without even trying: we have that anyway.  What this offers is a

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread Colby Russell
On 3/14/21 1:25 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: The same is absolutley not true for Javascript or Webassembly, it is nigh impossible to download the full set of scripts and other code to run it locally. You have your thumb on the scale.  The context is a copy of the GNU operating system built to run

Re: Web versions

2021-03-14 Thread DJ Delorie
shulie writes: > technology which is designed to be slaveware and dependent un insecure This is a value judgement on the developer writing the software, not the technology of the software itself. Please do not confuse the two. For example, I regularly use a javascript application that is served

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