Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
If there were tie on pockets *before* the 1700s, well, it certainly could be possible, after all, these pockets couldn't have spontaneously appeared in the year 1700. :) There are pockets in 16th C. Italian Paintings -- there just aren't... Yes, Allesandro Allori frescoes show several. Very practical unadorned; they dont appear embroidered, one appears to have some sort of braid covering a possible seam line. The pockets are not shown on principal characters in the frescoes, instead they are on the birthing room staff, for example. Look for the gals with their sleeves rolled up. any extant pockets that I know of -- although, niggling in the back of my brain is an extant pocket that dates from pre-1650. Museo del Traje, there is a 1575-1600 pocket in silver? gold? bullion on formerly white silk. Unknown provenance. Perhaps someone reads Spanish better than I do. Check their website look for bolsa and indumentaria histórica. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
Hi, This may be stupid, but -- aren't their pocket *slits* in some of the Herjolfsnes/Greenland finds? Which would suggest underlying pockets 13th century, even though they don't show up in paintings. Lauren ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This may be stupid, but -- aren't their pocket *slits* in some of the Herjolfsnes/Greenland finds? Which would suggest underlying pockets 13th century, even though they don't show up in paintings. The pocket slits in 14th c. clothing are generally understood as being a way to provide access to a belt, fastened over an underdress but below an overdress, holding a pouch or other items out of sight. It's not absolutely certain, though. The Herjolfsnes finds date mostly from the very late 14th c., not the 13th. Some bits appear to be rather earlier or later but I don't think they're relevant to this question. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
Thanks for the clarification, Robin, and sorry about the century -- I'm obsessed with the, like, three 13th century pieces out of the Greenland finds so I forget that the vast majority of stuff was later. -- Original message -- From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This may be stupid, but -- aren't their pocket *slits* in some of the Herjolfsnes/Greenland finds? Which would suggest underlying pockets 13th century, even though they don't show up in paintings. The pocket slits in 14th c. clothing are generally understood as being a way to provide access to a belt, fastened over an underdress but below an overdress, holding a pouch or other items out of sight. It's not absolutely certain, though. The Herjolfsnes finds date mostly from the very late 14th c., not the 13th. Some bits appear to be rather earlier or later but I don't think they're relevant to this question. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
In case anyone had trouble finding the pocket on the Museo Del Traje website, here's the enlarged photo: http://snipurl.com/290d3 [museodeltraje_mcu_es] And here's the inventory [inventario] number: CE000790 As far as when they started carrying pockets goes, brace yourselves as I make a completely non-costume-geek-like statement: I mean really, how different are separate pockets and pouches anyway?! Ok, sorry, just having a moment. Carry on. -E House (just bought her first house about 30 minutes ago) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
Congratulations on buying a house. If I were having a less stupid day I would make some kind of clever observation about your name and home ownership. Anyway, congrats and best wishes! Lauren -- Original message -- From: Exstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] In case anyone had trouble finding the pocket on the Museo Del Traje website, here's the enlarged photo: http://snipurl.com/290d3 [museodeltraje_mcu_es] And here's the inventory [inventario] number: CE000790 As far as when they started carrying pockets goes, brace yourselves as I make a completely non-costume-geek-like statement: I mean really, how different are separate pockets and pouches anyway?! Ok, sorry, just having a moment. Carry on. -E House (just bought her first house about 30 minutes ago) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
At 17:24 15/05/2008, you wrote: If there were tie on pockets *before* the 1700s, well, it certainly could be possible, after all, these pockets couldn't have spontaneously appeared in the year 1700. :) There are pockets in 16th C. Italian Paintings -- there just aren't... Yes, Allesandro Allori frescoes show several. Very practical unadorned; they dont appear embroidered, one appears to have some sort of braid covering a possible seam line. The pockets are not shown on principal characters in the frescoes, instead they are on the birthing room staff, for example. Look for the gals with their sleeves rolled up. any extant pockets that I know of -- although, niggling in the back of my brain is an extant pocket that dates from pre-1650. Museo del Traje, there is a 1575-1600 pocket in silver? gold? bullion on formerly white silk. Unknown provenance. Perhaps someone reads Spanish better than I do. Check their website look for bolsa and indumentaria histórica. There is a basic English language version of the web site, which makes it easier to find things. The Bolso is in the Jewellery and Accessories part of the site. (The search thingy is case sensitive.) Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
Lauren wrote: This may be stupid, but -- aren't their pocket *slits* in some of the Herjolfsnes/Greenland finds? Which would suggest underlying pockets 13th century, even though they don't show up in paintings. It certainly seems likely that pocket slits are to provide access to *something* hidden under the outer layer of garments, and the common thought is that in at least some cases, that something is some sort of self-contained pocket or pouch (i.e. not sewn into the seam as is the case with modern pockets) that is hung from some sort of waist tie or belt. What *form* that pouch takes, however, is less certain -- since we generally don't get to see it g. The surviving 17th-18th century pockets seem to be flat, closed at the top and with a slit or opened seam partway down one side, giving access to the contents. On the other hand, when we get to see earlier pouches (such as in a painting where someone has lifted up the outer layer to display them) they seem to be simple drawstring bags with the opening at the top. Same principle, different shapes. I'd certainly consider it very plausible, for a lot of medieval and renaissance contexts, to make one or two of the drawstring type of pouch, hang it/them from a ribbon tied around my waist, and wear them under a top layer with pocket slits. I'd be more doubtful about the plausibility of the later, flat style of hanging pocket in contexts before about 1600. (Though I haven't looked at the Spanish example yet.) OTOH, I can testify that the later style is certainly easier to get one's hand into when you can't see what you're doing so practicality might win in that case. (I have a farthingaleI made with a two-piece adjustable waistband, and it has side openings from the waist down to about thigh level. I sewed a pair of just this sort of flat pockets into the lower part of the openings, so they hang down *inside* the hoops. There are corresponding pocket slits in the outer gown. Very practical to keep a bulky wallet, keys and checkbook in, and they don't show at all -- but I don't have any historical justification for it, just practicality.) 0 Chris Laning | [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Davis, California http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction [was: Pockets; was: Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches]
Replying to a couple of emails. Thank you to whomever found the photo at Museo de Traje (can't find that email at the moment). I'm adding it to my collection. :) Susan Farmer wrote: A lady in the SCA has her research (and the snippets from a couple of the paintings) here http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Kat's%20Soccaccia.html Yes, I saw this link posted earlier. Unfortunately, she says this is so without citing where she may have read it or why she came to such a conclusion. But I love these pictures, because they do predate the 1700s, and the pouches do so much resemble 18th century pockets in shape and style. I wanted to see the whole paintings, and fortunately Kimiko uploaded scans: http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/ModaFirenze/index.html She quoted a bit of what _Moda a Firenze_ had to say about these pocket-pouches, which the above website appears also to be quoting, and when I have a chance I'll have to crack open my copy and read up on it myself. Exstock wrote: As far as when they started carrying pockets goes, brace yourselves as I make a completely non-costume-geek-like statement: I mean really, how different are separate pockets and pouches anyway?! I couldn't agree with you more! I don't know why 18th century tie-on pockets are called pockets at all and not pouches, but pocket is a documentably period term. Congratulations on the house. House in the house! Sorry, I had to try. :) Claudine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction
This just hit my brain. Looking at http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Kat%27s%20Soccaccia.html the second picture, it looks as if the pocket might have been made from what was originally the slit in an outer garment for reaching in for the pouch or pocket. That the triangle pieces may have been the tops of gores. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction [was: Pockets; was: Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches]
I'm a bit behind in my emails, but I hope those images of the loose pockets help. The book doesn't state much beyond what I posted, tho I haven't read it all yet, so I may have missed a comment elsewhere in the book. The earliest I've found comments on 16th century pockets in general were from the trial of Anne Boleyn, when one of her supposed lovers Wyatt claimed that Anne had given him a jewel (or something) from her pocket. What the pocket looked like or how it was accessed, I do not know. The story was mentioned briefly in the book Dress in the Court of King Henry VIII, but the author did not go into any details on pockets (much to my surprise). Doing a quick google search, Jstor has the article that mentions the Anne Boleyn story, but I don't have access to those articles. The Fall of Anne Boleyn G. W. Bernard http://www.jstor.org/pss/573258 Also, there is an image of an attached pocket on a man's jacket skirt in the Mary Rose book (name escapes me, but the one that has all the extant items in it). I think I've wandered a different direction on pockets, so I will end here. Kimiko --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I love these pictures, because they do predate the 1700s, and the pouches do so much resemble 18th century pockets in shape and style. I wanted to see the whole paintings, and fortunately Kimiko uploaded scans: http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/ModaFirenze/index.html She quoted a bit of what _Moda a Firenze_ had to say about these pocket-pouches, which the above website appears also to be quoting, and when I have a chance I'll have to crack open my copy and read up on it myself. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction [was: Pockets; was: Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches]
Belatedly chiming in (sorry, I'm always a few weeks behind in reading this list). Here's the webpage the picture of the pocket came from: http://www.vads.ahds.ac.uk/collections/pocketsofhistory.html They don't have a date for the specific pocket being discussed, and their image database won't be online until 2008 (hello? it's 2008 already!), but they do mention that their pockets date from 1700 to 1800. The shape and embroidery on this pocket is very typical of pockets seen in the 1700s (as in, there's dozens of similar extant examples, many of them American). So, I'm afraid it's really unlikely that this pocket dates to the 1600s. To the person who asked about making a pocket like this one: it's most likely crewelwork, and you can find diagrams of very similar pockets in (and I may need to verify): Fitting Proper by Sharon Ann Burnston Costume Close-Up by Linda Baumgarten et. al. 18th Century Embroidery Techniques by Gail Marsh and lots of pretty pictures at: http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/pockets/collections/index.html If there were tie on pockets *before* the 1700s, well, it certainly could be possible, after all, these pockets couldn't have spontaneously appeared in the year 1700. :) Claudine (who collects photos of 18th c. pockets :) ) - Original Message Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:40:46 -0500 From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii I remember reading that it was early 1600s but I am not 100% sure of the year 20. It was list in either Elizabethan or Jacobean. De -Original Message- At 00:02 06/05/2008, you wrote: I think it was from the Museum of London site. The pocket I believe said that it was listed at about 1620. There are very few pockets from pre1600s. Presently I can not find the site. The embroidery seems very 18th century to me - are you sure it was 1620? I have looked at a large number of pockets, and pictures of, for a small project I am working on, and have never seen one dated that early. Some of the MoL items are not always dated accurately, or with a very wide range of dates, as I have found while working there, as a volunteer. Suzi De * Kate Bunting Cataloguing Data Quality Librarian University of Derby ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction [was: Pockets; was: Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches]
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If there were tie on pockets *before* the 1700s, well, it certainly could be possible, after all, these pockets couldn't have spontaneously appeared in the year 1700. :) There are pockets in 16th C. Italian Paintings -- there just aren't any extant pockets that I know of -- although, niggling in the back of my brain is an extant pocket that dates from pre-1650. A lady in the SCA has her research (and the snippets from a couple of the paintings) here http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Kat's%20Soccaccia.html Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
