Re: [h-cost] costume photos
WorldCon! I might be there g and if I'm not, I'd love to see it anyway. Thank you for sharing your photographs with us! Suzanne On Jul 9, 2009, at 10:59 PM, h-costume-requ...@indra.com wrote: Our next trip will hopefully be to Pennsic or World Con to photograph costumes. We are trying to figure out which one is better and the expense. We have to travel to Mississippi the prior to take our son to college. Following Pennsic or World Con week, we are in Scranton, PA (hubby's business and my antique shopping), and then hopefully to NYC for the weekend. Off to play with more photographs! Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Wow! When you said they aren't cheap, I had no idea you meant they cost a fortune! They look great, but way out of my price range which would be less than a tenth of that. I'd have to teach for the next 40 years and I'm sure I won't be alive that long. Thanks for the info though. Sylrog On Oct 5, 2007, at 5:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/4/2007 10:03:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So it sounds like I'm ok, since I work for an educational institution, huh? Sylrog Sylvia, There are ready-made sets available. They aren't cheap, but they save you all the trouble. Check out _http://www.slidepresentationsdvd.com/_ (http://www.slidepresentationsdvd.com/) I'm sure such an investment depends on many times you or your institution intend this class to be taught, but it seems to me it might be well worth while. Ann Wass ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Yes, that is quite obvious. However, as a business owner you might consider that the people on this list are your target consumers. It is a well known fact that consumers often purchase where they feel they are treated respectfully. I know I have switched dry cleaners not because of how my clothes were cleaned (both did an admirable job there), but because of their customer service. You may be alienating many people who would have otherwise purchased your goods. Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look, I don't live for the approval of email lists, OK? I coule care less if people think I'm nicey-nice. Fran Beteena Paradise wrote: I think everyone gets your point. Too bad the point couldn't have been made in a manner which was a bit less off-putting. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
In a message dated 10/4/2007 10:03:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So it sounds like I'm ok, since I work for an educational institution, huh? Sylrog Sylvia, There are ready-made sets available. They aren't cheap, but they save you all the trouble. Check out _http://www.slidepresentationsdvd.com/_ (http://www.slidepresentationsdvd.com/) I'm sure such an investment depends on many times you or your institution intend this class to be taught, but it seems to me it might be well worth while. Ann Wass ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Look, I don't live for the approval of email lists, OK? I coule care less if people think I'm nicey-nice. Fran I don't think anyone was talking about approval or being thought of as nicey-nice. Manners would have been appreciated, though. I am going to take your own advice and delete future messages from Lavolta Press. Sadly, I'm sure I will miss good content on occasion, but consistently abrasive, antagonistic posts do a disservice to both sender and list. Astrida ** Astrida Schaeffer, Assistant Director The Art Gallery University of New Hampshire Paul Creative Arts Center 30 College Road Durham, NH 03824 (603) 862-0310 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fax: (603) 862-2191 ** ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Beteena Paradise wrote: Yes, that is quite obvious. However, as a business owner you might consider that the people on this list are your target consumers. It is a well known fact that consumers often purchase where they feel they are treated respectfully. I know I have switched dry cleaners not because of how my clothes were cleaned (both did an admirable job there), but because of their customer service. You may be alienating many people who would have otherwise purchased your goods. Sorry, that club for controlling me doesn’t work. First, my social participation on an e-mail list has nothing to do with customer service. I’m not obliged to run my entire life, change my opinions, insert ridiculous “IMHO” statements and smiley faces all over my emails, etc., on the basis of whether someone, someday, might, maybe, possibly, buy something from me. Second, 99.9% of my books are sold through book industry wholesalers, meaning that I almost never sell directly to consumers, and not even that often to retailers. The customer service that consumers receive from the retailers, who in turn buy from those wholesalers, has nothing whatever to do with me. Third, no one who is seriously interested in doing research or gaining information buys books on the basis of whether they know or like the author. What counts is the content of the books. Anyone not at all interested in gaining information on the subjects I write on won’t buy them anyway. Fourth, I’ve run this business profitably for 14 years. While this is not the first time someone has told me that if I don’t change my opinions about copyright, etc., they won’t buy my books (usually someone interested in such a different era from any I’ve yet published on, that they wouldn’t buy them anyway), I have yet to notice the slightest impact whatever on sales. I have my sales figures, you don’t. Sine I’ve managed to run an increasingly profitable business for 14 years while still having the same personality, I doubt it has any negative impact on my business. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
I don't think anyone was talking about approval or being thought of as nicey-nice. Manners would have been appreciated, though. I am going to take your own advice and delete future messages from Lavolta Press. Sadly, I'm sure I will miss good content on occasion, but consistently abrasive, antagonistic posts do a disservice to both sender and list. Astrida Thank you for taking the sensible approach. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Fourth, I've run this business profitably for 14 years. While this is not the first time someone has told me that if I don't change my opinions about copyright, etc., Fran, I don't think anyone asked you to change your opinions, just to consider other people's feelings in your responses. (Not what they think of you, but how you make them feel.) Patty ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Fran - I am sure you write very knowledgable books. It is obvious from your posts that you are an expert at everything you undertake. I am familiar with you from several costume related groups and I'm afraid I must say your expert attitude is indeed a turn-off. You publish books relating to the era that I am involved in, but because of your personality I am afraid I will never purchase one of your books. I suppose that will be my loss. However, there are many more authors out there putting out books I am sure are as good, if not better than yours. But I am sure you disagree with anyone else's books being better than yours. I don't think anyone is asking you to be nicey nice. Some common courtesy would, however, be nice. Just because someone has a different opinion on something, you don't need to treat them as if they are stupid. This could have been a really good, interesting discussion. Cactus Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beteena Paradise wrote: Yes, that is quite obvious. However, as a business owner you might consider that the people on this list are your target consumers. It is a well known fact that consumers often purchase where they feel they are treated respectfully. I know I have switched dry cleaners not because of how my clothes were cleaned (both did an admirable job there), but because of their customer service. You may be alienating many people who would have otherwise purchased your goods. Sorry, that club for controlling me doesnt work. First, my social participation on an e-mail list has nothing to do with customer service. Im not obliged to run my entire life, change my opinions, insert ridiculous IMHO statements and smiley faces all over my emails, etc., on the basis of whether someone, someday, might, maybe, possibly, buy something from me. Second, 99.9% of my books are sold through book industry wholesalers, meaning that I almost never sell directly to consumers, and not even that often to retailers. The customer service that consumers receive from the retailers, who in turn buy from those wholesalers, has nothing whatever to do with me. Third, no one who is seriously interested in doing research or gaining information buys books on the basis of whether they know or like the author. What counts is the content of the books. Anyone not at all interested in gaining information on the subjects I write on wont buy them anyway. Fourth, Ive run this business profitably for 14 years. While this is not the first time someone has told me that if I dont change my opinions about copyright, etc., they wont buy my books (usually someone interested in such a different era from any Ive yet published on, that they wouldnt buy them anyway), I have yet to notice the slightest impact whatever on sales. I have my sales figures, you dont. Sine Ive managed to run an increasingly profitable business for 14 years while still having the same personality, I doubt it has any negative impact on my business. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume test'; - Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Can’t you guys just let a flame war die—-instead of inventing statements I never made, and lobbing repeated personal insults, and then make me run around publicly denying them? I’ve worked in publishing for 24 years, and I have several thousand books in my personal library. I own every competitive book on the market: And furthermore, I’ve recommended numerous other books in my bibliographies, etc. If you’re going to accuse me of something, try for a fact. But: OK, I’m assertive, aggressive, abrasive, an atheist, and everything that begins with an A. I’m a nickel-plated bitch (I can’t think of anything else right now that begins with a B. And I love every single minute of it. But at least, I don’t write hate mail, either publicly or privately, or try to destroy personal reputations, or try to harm businesses, to prove how much nicer, kinder, politer, more popular, more conformist, more appropriately feminine, or more a member of an e-list clique, etc. I am. Now, I really do have better things to do than answer repeated insults and invented statements. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com snip However, there are many more authors out there putting out books I am sure are as good, if not better than yours. But I am sure you disagree with anyone else's books being better than yours. I don't think anyone is asking you to be nicey nice. Some common courtesy would, however, be nice. Just because someone has a different opinion on something, you don't need to treat them as if they are stupid. snip Shirley Hobbs wrote: Fran - I am sure you write very knowledgable books. It is obvious from your posts that you are an expert at everything you undertake. I am familiar with you from several costume related groups and I'm afraid I must say your expert attitude is indeed a turn-off. You publish books relating to the era that I am involved in, but because of your personality I am afraid I will never purchase one of your books. I suppose that will be my loss. However, there are many more authors out there putting out books I am sure are as good, if not better than yours. But I am sure you disagree with anyone else's books being better than yours. I don't think anyone is asking you to be nicey nice. Some common courtesy would, however, be nice. Just because someone has a different opinion on something, you don't need to treat them as if they are stupid. This could have been a really good, interesting discussion. Cactus Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beteena Paradise wrote: Yes, that is quite obvious. However, as a business owner you might consider that the people on this list are your target consumers. It is a well known fact that consumers often purchase where they feel they are treated respectfully. I know I have switched dry cleaners not because of how my clothes were cleaned (both did an admirable job there), but because of their customer service. You may be alienating many people who would have otherwise purchased your goods. Sorry, that club for controlling me doesn’t work. First, my social participation on an e-mail list has nothing to do with customer service. I’m not obliged to run my entire life, change my opinions, insert ridiculous “IMHO” statements and smiley faces all over my emails, etc., on the basis of whether someone, someday, might, maybe, possibly, buy something from me. Second, 99.9% of my books are sold through book industry wholesalers, meaning that I almost never sell directly to consumers, and not even that often to retailers. The customer service that consumers receive from the retailers, who in turn buy from those wholesalers, has nothing whatever to do with me. Third, no one who is seriously interested in doing research or gaining information buys books on the basis of whether they know or like the author. What counts is the content of the books. Anyone not at all interested in gaining information on the subjects I write on won’t buy them anyway. Fourth, I’ve run this business profitably for 14 years. While this is not the first time someone has told me that if I don’t change my opinions about copyright, etc., they won’t buy my books (usually someone interested in such a different era from any I’ve yet published on, that they wouldn’t buy them anyway), I have yet to notice the slightest impact whatever on sales. I have my sales figures, you don’t. Sine I’ve managed to run an increasingly profitable business for 14 years while still having the same personality, I doubt it has any negative impact on my business. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume test'; - Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ___
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Can’t you guys just let a flame war die—-instead of inventing statements I never made, and lobbing repeated personal insults, and then make me run around publicly denying them? _make me_ ??!?? My kids are 13 and 15 and they quit saying he made me about 5 years ago. How old are you? **Who** can't let it die? Look in the mirror. sheesh. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Can we all just pull up our big girl pants and move on? Patty From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Land of Oz Sent: Fri 10/5/2007 10:25 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos Can't you guys just let a flame war die--instead of inventing statements I never made, and lobbing repeated personal insults, and then make me run around publicly denying them? _make me_ ??!?? My kids are 13 and 15 and they quit saying he made me about 5 years ago. How old are you? **Who** can't let it die? Look in the mirror. sheesh. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Well, if you've been on that list any length of time, you'll probably have noticed that Fran *is* harsh. Personnally, I just delete her emails. - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree. Can we not try to insult one another and start flame wars? Sylrob On Oct 4, 2007, at 8:36 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote: Wow - that was harsh! Patty ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Fran quoted me thus: Copyright law focuses on publishing ... cutting off my sentence midstream. Then she added: Actually, copyright literally covers making copies, and does not only apply to distribution or sale of them. However, if Fran had included the rest of my sentence, it would have been clear that I was saying the same thing, as my full sentence went on to define publishing (for purposes of describing copyright) -- as the making of copies. My full sentence was this: Copyright law focuses on publishing -- that is, creation and distribution of copies of creative work that someone owns. Fran equated the terms herself later in her paragraph: This is why it's illegal to copy a copyrighted book to save yourself the price of buying it; you're publishing a one-off for yourself. Yes: copying as publishing. The rest of my post should also have made it abundantly obvious I was not defining publishing here as requiring sale. Distribution is fuzzier, and I included it in that sentence in part because I didn't want to get sidetracked onto the issue of copying things for personal use. Note that I said focuses on, not covers. Truth is, although the exact definition of copyright is broader, copyright *cases* generally arise only when a copy goes beyond the knowledge and use of a single person. Technically it is often a violation to make a copy of something for personal use, but from a practical standpoint, if no one hears the tree fall, it makes no sound. As far as I know, personal use wasn't the concern in the thread, so I concentrated on the practical issue that was under discussion. Certainly, copying a whole book is a violation. But I've occasionally resorted to Xeroxing books that are technically in copyright, when they're out of print or otherwise unavailable and I need to refer to them longer than ILL will let me. In the one chance in a million that the copyright owners in these cases wander into my private office and find the copies in my files, I'll take my lumps. (Given the books in question, though, I suspect the authors would more likely be amazed that would go to such lengths to get them.) Copying pages or chunks here and there is something that happens every day in every university library and Kinko's. When, in writing a paper, I quote from or cite a book that I don't own, I routinely copy the relevant pages, so I can go back to the reference for context or fact-checking as needed. I also copy the title page and copyright page of the book and staple them to the copies of the individual pages. I consider that good scholarly practice, and I can't imagine anyone hauling me in for copyright violation for that. Likewise, educational use legally applies to education that takes place within educational institutions, and not to an individual reading any book he or she may find informative (which after all applies to every nonfiction work). Which is why I was careful to refer specifically to educational presentations, not just educational use, in my example. Which, again, I think was relevant to the thread at hand. I'm not sure how the law would cover independent lectures that are characterized as classes but not within the walls of an institution. The SCA has events that are full of classes, and it has legal status as a 501(c)3 nonprofit educational organization. A lawyer could make a good case that a class at an SCA university event is an educational presentation, but just Xeroxing stuff for reference in making SCA costumes probably wouldn't fly. Many of my own slides are from books I don't own. I made the copies from library copies, or in the rare book rooms of libraries, often using the library's own photo setup, with permission from the rare book librarian. (And yes, some rare books are still young enough to be under copyright.) They knew I'd be using the slides for research and lectures. I've never run into anyone who questions whether this is appropriate educational use ... even though I am not affiliated with and do not teach at an educational institution. Copyright law, overall, is full of exceptions, loopholes, conflicting precedents, and argument. Some lines are clearer than others, though. I should also note that I generally agree with Fran on issues of copyright, and I would encourage her to read my posts with a consideration of the context of the conversation. I have no desire or time to engage in an argument over semantics, particularly as we are on the same side of the issue. I should also note that my goal in entering into this discussion is to provide helpful guidance to list members who want to do the right thing, and I do not intend to get into a protracted discussion about fine points of the law that do not apply to the situation at hand. --Robin _ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now.
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Robin Netherton wrote: Certainly, copying a whole book is a violation. But I've occasionally resorted to Xeroxing books that are technically in copyright, when they're out of print or otherwise unavailable and I need to refer to them longer than ILL will let me. In the one chance in a million that the copyright owners in these cases wander into my private office and find the copies in my files, I'll take my lumps. (Given the books in question, though, I suspect the authors would more likely be amazed that would go to such lengths to get them.) Ah: So you think anything you wish to do and that benefits you is ethical as long as you don’t get caught? I don’t leave my purse, or any other property, unattended around people with attitudes like that. Copying pages or chunks here and there is something that happens every day in every university library and Kinko's. Ah: So since every crime and violation of law happens every day, somewhere, it’s OK for you to commit any of them? I don’t even want to be in the room with people who have ethics like that. Who knows what they’d feel OK about doing. Somehow, I manage to do research—-although there’s so much grandstanding, exaggeration, and sheer bullshit about “research” and “scholarship” in reenactment communities I try not to mention it much—-without violating copyrights. This is greatly facilitated by actually buying the books, and yes I also buy “rare” books. I'm not sure how the law would cover independent lectures that are characterized as classes but not within the walls of an institution. Then since you’re giving such lectures, don’t you think you should find out for sure? There are also a number of other legal guidelines, including using only small portions of a work and a small number of works, having the need arise when there is not enough time to purchase the publications, and others. Copyright law, overall, is full of exceptions, loopholes, conflicting precedents, and argument. Some lines are clearer than others, though. Not fully understanding it does not give you license to do whatever you’d like. I should also note that I generally agree with Fran on issues of copyright, and I would encourage her to read my posts with a consideration of the context of the conversation. OK, so we’re using the third person now, not addressing each other. So: I don’t think from the above comments that Robin and I are in agreement about copyright law. I’d encourage Robin to read some books on it. Nolo Press has a good selection. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Fran quoted me: Certainly, copying a whole book is a violation. But I've occasionally resorted to Xeroxing books that are technically in copyright, when they're out of print or otherwise unavailable and I need to refer to them longer than ILL will let me. In the one chance in a million that the copyright owners in these cases wander into my private office and find the copies in my files, I'll take my lumps. (Given the books in question, though, I suspect the authors would more likely be amazed that would go to such lengths to get them.) And responded: Ah: So you think anything you wish to do and that benefits you is ethical as long as you don’t get caught? Anyone who could take my extremely specific statement above and make the subsequent sweeping (and very much incorrect) inference is not worth engaging in conversation. --Robin _ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Robin Netherton wrote: Closer to the point here: I use slides of artwork in my lectures, as many as 100 in a single lecture. Some come from books. Some come from the artwork itself; of the latter, some of the photos were taken under explicit agreements with the owning libraries/museums regarding how I would use the images (e.g. research and teaching, but not publication or distribution). My use is legal; if I disseminated the images, it would not be. When I have used images in my published papers, I have paid for reproduction permission. On the other hand, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel_Corp. -- it's not so clear that museums can always restrict your use of the artwork they own. Of course, if you have made an agreement with them, it's ethical to honor it. But Bridgeman v. Corel indicates that such agreements aren't always necessary. Then again, if you want to maintain a good working relationship with the museums... *sigh* W -- *---+---+--* \ Wendi Dunlap-Simpson | litlnemo at slumberland.seattle.wa.us | dear/ / Seattle, Wash., USA | http://www.slumberland.seattle.wa.us | 23 \ *--Somehow everything will be a little different than you thought* ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
So it sounds like I'm ok, since I work for an educational institution, huh? Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 11:14 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: Likewise, educational use legally applies to education that takes place within educational institutions, and not to an individual reading any book he or she may find informative (which after all applies to every nonfiction work). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Thank you all in bringing some clarification to this murky issue. Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:11 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] costume photos Fran quoted me thus: Copyright law focuses on publishing ... cutting off my sentence midstream. Then she added: Actually, copyright literally covers making copies, and does not only apply to distribution or sale of them. However, if Fran had included the rest of my sentence, it would have been clear that I was saying the same thing, as my full sentence went on to define publishing (for purposes of describing copyright) -- as the making of copies. My full sentence was this: Copyright law focuses on publishing -- that is, creation and distribution of copies of creative work that someone owns. Fran equated the terms herself later in her paragraph: This is why it's illegal to copy a copyrighted book to save yourself the price of buying it; you're publishing a one-off for yourself. Yes: copying as publishing. The rest of my post should also have made it abundantly obvious I was not defining publishing here as requiring sale. Distribution is fuzzier, and I included it in that sentence in part because I didn't want to get sidetracked onto the issue of copying things for personal use. Note that I said focuses on, not covers. Truth is, although the exact definition of copyright is broader, copyright *cases* generally arise only when a copy goes beyond the knowledge and use of a single person. Technically it is often a violation to make a copy of something for personal use, but from a practical standpoint, if no one hears the tree fall, it makes no sound. As far as I know, personal use wasn't the concern in the thread, so I concentrated on the practical issue that was under discussion. Certainly, copying a whole book is a violation. But I've occasionally resorted to Xeroxing books that are technically in copyright, when they're out of print or otherwise unavailable and I need to refer to them longer than ILL will let me. In the one chance in a million that the copyright owners in these cases wander into my private office and find the copies in my files, I'll take my lumps. (Given the books in question, though, I suspect the authors would more likely be amazed that would go to such lengths to get them.) Copying pages or chunks here and there is something that happens every day in every university library and Kinko's. When, in writing a paper, I quote from or cite a book that I don't own, I routinely copy the relevant pages, so I can go back to the reference for context or fact-checking as needed. I also copy the title page and copyright page of the book and staple them to the copies of the individual pages. I consider that good scholarly practice, and I can't imagine anyone hauling me in for copyright violation for that. Likewise, educational use legally applies to education that takes place within educational institutions, and not to an individual reading any book he or she may find informative (which after all applies to every nonfiction work). Which is why I was careful to refer specifically to educational presentations, not just educational use, in my example. Which, again, I think was relevant to the thread at hand. I'm not sure how the law would cover independent lectures that are characterized as classes but not within the walls of an institution. The SCA has events that are full of classes, and it has legal status as a 501(c)3 nonprofit educational organization. A lawyer could make a good case that a class at an SCA university event is an educational presentation, but just Xeroxing stuff for reference in making SCA costumes probably wouldn't fly. Many of my own slides are from books I don't own. I made the copies from library copies, or in the rare book rooms of libraries, often using the library's own photo setup, with permission from the rare book librarian. (And yes, some rare books are still young enough to be under copyright.) They knew I'd be using the slides for research and lectures. I've never run into anyone who questions whether this is appropriate educational use ... even though I am not affiliated with and do not teach at an educational institution. Copyright law, overall, is full of exceptions, loopholes, conflicting precedents, and argument. Some lines are clearer than others, though. I should also note that I generally agree with Fran on issues of copyright, and I would encourage her to read my posts with a consideration of the context of the conversation. I have no desire or time to engage in an argument over semantics, particularly as we are on the same side of the issue. I should also note that my goal in entering into this discussion is to provide helpful guidance to list members who want to do the right thing, and I do not intend to get
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
I agree. Can we not try to insult one another and start flame wars? Sylrob On Oct 4, 2007, at 8:36 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote: Wow - that was harsh! Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:36 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos Robin Netherton wrote: Certainly, copying a whole book is a violation. But I've occasionally resorted to Xeroxing books that are technically in copyright, when they're out of print or otherwise unavailable and I need to refer to them longer than ILL will let me. In the one chance in a million that the copyright owners in these cases wander into my private office and find the copies in my files, I'll take my lumps. (Given the books in question, though, I suspect the authors would more likely be amazed that would go to such lengths to get them.) Ah: So you think anything you wish to do and that benefits you is ethical as long as you don't get caught? I don't leave my purse, or any other property, unattended around people with attitudes like that. Copying pages or chunks here and there is something that happens every day in every university library and Kinko's. Ah: So since every crime and violation of law happens every day, somewhere, it's OK for you to commit any of them? I don't even want to be in the room with people who have ethics like that. Who knows what they'd feel OK about doing. Somehow, I manage to do research--although there's so much grandstanding, exaggeration, and sheer bullshit about research and scholarship in reenactment communities I try not to mention it much--without violating copyrights. This is greatly facilitated by actually buying the books, and yes I also buy rare books. I'm not sure how the law would cover independent lectures that are characterized as classes but not within the walls of an institution. Then since you're giving such lectures, don't you think you should find out for sure? There are also a number of other legal guidelines, including using only small portions of a work and a small number of works, having the need arise when there is not enough time to purchase the publications, and others. Copyright law, overall, is full of exceptions, loopholes, conflicting precedents, and argument. Some lines are clearer than others, though. Not fully understanding it does not give you license to do whatever you'd like. I should also note that I generally agree with Fran on issues of copyright, and I would encourage her to read my posts with a consideration of the context of the conversation. OK, so we're using the third person now, not addressing each other. So: I don't think from the above comments that Robin and I are in agreement about copyright law. I'd encourage Robin to read some books on it. Nolo Press has a good selection. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re:[ h-cost] Costume photos
Robin wrote: Copying pages or chunks here and there is something that happens every day in every university library and Kinko's. and Fran replied Ah: So since every crime and violation of law happens every day, somewhere, itÆs OK for you to commit any of them? I don't know what Kinko's is, but in a university library copying of a section of a book (1 chapter or 5%) for private study is perfectly legal. Kate Bunting Cataloguing Data Quality Librarian University of Derby ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Lavolta Press wrote: Robin Netherton wrote: Copying pages or chunks here and there is something that happens every day in every university library and Kinko's. Ah: So since every crime and violation of law happens every day, somewhere, it’s OK for you to commit any of them? And we're back to the assumption of criminal intent and sniping. Fair use, people. Fair use. http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/copypol2.htm#test The general counsel of a major university system, writing in plain English for folks who aren't lawyers. It's directed at the faculty in his system. Of course, if you do want a more generic (and far more detailed) view, you can check out the Stanford Copyright Fair Use Center http://fairuse.stanford.edu/. They've got their own explanation of the Fair Use Test, but it's a bit more detailed: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
What about using designs that are hundreds of years old, but are in a new publication. I teach a blackwork class to 4-5 graders (no fee, just part of the Fines Arts Block at my son's school)and copy images for them to use on their samplers, as it is easier than tracing each one individually. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:15 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] costume photos But I'm not publishing the photos I copy. You keep using the word publish. I was speaking about copyright law, not about you specifically; I didn't want the previous comment (you only need permission if you're making money off it) to stand without discussion, because the issue of money is so often misunderstood. Whether you need permission does not depend on whether money changes hands. In your case, you may well not need permission anyway, but whether you're making money doesn't have anything to do with that. Copyright law focuses on publishing -- that is, creation and distribution of copies of creative work that someone owns. I didn't follow the beginning of this thread closely, so I don't know what you're doing or whether the law applies to you. I am not a lawyer, but here's my understanding of some practical situations I often see in my own work: If you take photos from the book, make slides, and show them to a class, you're fine. Making slides to display for an educational presentation is well within every interpretation of copyright law I've ever read. Note that I refer specifically to educational presentation. If you are putting on a show for entertainment (even for free), you are no longer on firm ground. If you make handouts with copies of the images, you are on muddier ground, because people can take the images home with them. If you make a CD and distribute it to the students, even as a textbook of sorts, you're over the line (regardless of whether they pay any money). These count as publishing. If you put one of the pictures on a poster for a school event, you are over the line, but probably no one will bother you about it. If you put a picture into a newsletter or magazine, or onto a web page, you are over the line and may very well be pursued over it. This is something I have experienced from both sides! And when was I pursued? Not me, but the magazine I worked for. Our designer created a cover design that used a Superman type treatment about super fund raisers and a visual image of an office worker opening his shirt to reveal a dollar sign treated like Superman's S. DC Comics saw one and made us destroy every remaining copy. I don't remember if we had to pay money too. Another, less disastrous example. In leafing through a trade magazine, I noticed an article on a magazine designer that included a photo of him in his studio. Clearly visible on the wall of the studio was a piece of art showing an illuminated alphabet -- a signed and numbered art print I recognized because I own the same print myself. Amused, I sent a copy of the magazine to the artist, who was a personal friend. He saw something I hadn't noticed: The article itself used, as a decorative element, one of the illuminated letters taken from the poster. The photo of the framed poster on the wall was fine. The lifting of the letter from the poster and its placement as an art element in a published article was theft. My friend sent a thank-you note to me, and sent a modest bill for his graphic artwork to the magazine editor. The bill was paid. I myself have had a copyright case in court, part of a group of a dozen writers who did work for a company that declared bankruptcy before paying us. As part of its bankruptcy proceedings, it sold its intellectual assets, including the work that we had written. We sued on grounds that they didn't yet own copyright to the work and thus couldn't legally sell it. We won. Having established our claim to the property (which we didn't really care about, as the articles were made to suit a particular publication and weren't useful to us), our lawyer then negotiated a small settlement with the purchasing company to give up our claim. Pennies on the dollar compared to what we would have gotten in pay for our work, but at least it was something. Closer to the point here: I use slides of artwork in my lectures, as many as 100 in a single lecture. Some come from books. Some come from the artwork itself; of the latter, some of the photos were taken under explicit agreements with the owning libraries/museums regarding how I would use the images (e.g. research and teaching, but not publication or distribution). My use is legal; if I disseminated the images, it would not be. When I have used images in my published papers, I have paid for reproduction permission. Last time I did a lecture, I was almost at the end before I learned that someone in the audience had been using her cellphone to take
RE: [h-cost] Re:[ h-cost] Costume photos
From Kate: Robin wrote: Copying pages or chunks here and there is something that happens every day in every university library and Kinko's. and Fran replied Ah: So since every crime and violation of law happens every day somewhere, it's OK for you to commit any of them? Kate adds: I don't know what Kinko's is, but in a university library copying of a section of a book (1 chapter or 5%) for private study is perfectly legal. Yes, exactly. In my post, I was attempting to draw a contrast between this sort of legal fair-use copying of small bits -- routine and unremarkable -- vs. the question of copying whole books, as discussed in the preceding paragraph of my post. It appears I didn't draw the distinction clearly enough to be understood by all, and I appreciate you and Andrew making my point clearer. The example I gave here was my (perfectly legal) practice of copying a page or two here and there (along with the title page and publishing info of the book) so I have an accurate record of material I am citing or quoting in a scholarly article. I learned to do this when I realized how hard it was to read my own handwriting in notes that were many years old, or found that I needed to check something like a city of publication to put in a footnote. I sometimes do this even with books I own so I have all the quotations for a given article in the same file. Plus I can happily run a highlighter over text on a Xerox! Kinko's, by the way, is an American chain of copy centers. That is, they were plain-old copy centers when they started sprouting up on college campuses a couple of decades ago. Now they also offer Fedex shipping, office supplies, and a bewildering array of printing/fax/computer services. They're open 24 hours and I have spent many a late night there. I once assembled an anniversary-gift scrapbook there at 3am using their nice selection of acid-free decorative papers and their good paper cutter. I figure the only thing they're missing now is a coffee bar. --Robin _ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Ah: So you think anything you wish to do and that benefits you is ethical as long as you don’t get caught? Anyone who could take my extremely specific statement above and make the subsequent sweeping (and very much incorrect) inference is not worth engaging in conversation. --Robin It's not a broad and sweeping statement. What you seem to have said, in terms of one branch of ethics and law, is that whether a person obeys it depends on whether it is convenient and economical for them to do so, and whether they think the value of any research they may be doing automatically overrides the author's legal and moral rights. Note, I have not attributed this to _your_ actions regarding copyright, but it seems to be a stance you approve, or that you are urging other people to approve. As it's one of the standard copyright pirate arguments, it is not a stance that I can approve. And not regarding you, but people in general, no, I don't trust my personal property with anyone who says they feel it's OK to steal intellectual property. Of course, I did quit opening my personal library to people many years ago when I found out that one of them walked out with one of my books under her cape because she couldn't afford it, then bragged to other people about doing so. As for engaging me in conversation, you have already taken the absurd stance of talking about my statements behind my back as it were, to a group where you know very well I am present. So it seems that even though you are engaging me in conversation, you will not admit to condescending to do so. I have no idea why you can't say whatever you have to say clearly and directly. However, your obfuscating your statements with it's just for other people's education, and copyright is all so unclear and hard to understand anyway, does not make it easier for me to understand what you mean. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Fair use, people. Fair use. http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/copypol2.htm#test The general counsel of a major university system, writing in plain English for folks who aren't lawyers. It's directed at the faculty in his system. Of course, if you do want a more generic (and far more detailed) view, you can check out the Stanford Copyright Fair Use Center http://fairuse.stanford.edu/. They've got their own explanation of the Fair Use Test, but it's a bit more detailed: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html The problem is that many people want to take _one_ criteria, such as I'm not making any money from it or I work for an educational institution and assume that everything they want to do with material they want to use is fair use. There are actually a variety of criteria they must meet. Also, even, some people wave around the term fair use, as if to say, Well it exists, so whatever I'm doing must be fair use. Not so. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
I think everyone gets your point. Too bad the point couldn't have been made in a manner which was a bit less off-putting. Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that many people want to take _one_ criteria, such as I'm not making any money from it or I work for an educational institution and assume that everything they want to do with material they want to use is fair use. There are actually a variety of criteria they must meet. Also, even, some people wave around the term fair use, as if to say, Well it exists, so whatever I'm doing must be fair use. Not so. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos--to Sylvia
Actually, instead of posting on a costuming list, what I'd recommend you to do is this: Go to the head of your department. Ask, What are the departmental and/or university copyright guidelines for my use of this kind of material, in this manner, in my lectures? Please give me a copy of printed guidelines. And if we don't have any, the university lawyers should develop some. I want to do the right thing ethically, and other instructors probably do too. We need the proper official and legal guidance to help us. Because, the university _should_ have such guidelines. The thing is: When someone is sued, it is quite usual to name everyone possible in the suit, but especially, the parties with deep pockets. The university probably has deeper pockets as a business/organization, than you do as an individual. So if you're an employee, both you and they are likely to be sued if someone objects to any copyrights of theirs that you violate. Thus the university has a strong vested interest in helping you do the right thing. Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that you are not a university employee, but someone giving workshops for an organization like the SCA. I am here going by what I know of California law, which may differ in other states. Under California law, an employer does not have the same responsibilities for an independent contractor that they do for an employee. And if someone is named in a suit, and they are a peripheral party, they do not necessarily have to stay in it; their lawyers devise arguments as to why they should be allowed to withdraw, placing the entire burden of the suit on the other party(ies) named. In other words, in California at least, an employer sued along with an independent contractor can cut themselves loose from the suit, placing the entire burden on the contractor. (After some argument on the part of the employer's lawyers in the many letters, hearings, etc. that occur before the suit actually comes to trial, which can easily take about a year.) If an employer or organization who is faced with spending a lot of time and money defending themselves for a violation of law committed by an independent contractor of his or own free will, can get out of the situation by placing the entire legal burden on the contractor, they are likely to do so. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Sylvia Rognstad wrote: So it sounds like I'm ok, since I work for an educational institution, huh? Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 11:14 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: Likewise, educational use legally applies to education that takes place within educational institutions, and not to an individual reading any book he or she may find informative (which after all applies to every nonfiction work). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re:[ h-cost] Costume photos
No library determines US copyright law. What you are describing is merely the policy of your particular library. Fran I don't know what Kinko's is, but in a university library copying of a section of a book (1 chapter or 5%) for private study is perfectly legal. Kate Bunting Cataloguing Data Quality Librarian University of Derby ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
On Oct 4, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: Fair use, people. Fair use. http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/copypol2.htm#test The general counsel of a major university system, writing in plain English for folks who aren't lawyers. It's directed at the faculty in his system. Of course, if you do want a more generic (and far more detailed) view, you can check out the Stanford Copyright Fair Use Center http://fairuse.stanford.edu/. They've got their own explanation of the Fair Use Test, but it's a bit more detailed: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/ chapter9/9-b.html The problem is that many people want to take _one_ criteria, such as I'm not making any money from it or I work for an educational institution and assume that everything they want to do with material they want to use is fair use. There are actually a variety of criteria they must meet. Also, even, some people wave around the term fair use, as if to say, Well it exists, so whatever I'm doing must be fair use. Not so. And yet you argue against generalizations with more generalizations. Sylvia was describing (although I look to her to verify this) copying individual photographs from sources of historical fashion for class presentation and/or course packs. At first glance, that qualifies as fair use. Let's run through the tests (I'll use the UT version, it's easier to understand) to confirm: FACTOR 1: What is the character of the use? It's educational, a high-ranking use under this test. It may also be non-profit (another high-ranking use), but I don't know anything about the institution or organization for which she's teaching this class. FACTOR 2: What is the nature of the work to be used? It's probably fact (the material in the images isn't likely to be original to the copyright holder on the work and may, itself, be in the public domain even if the photograph itself isn't) and it's published. High-ranking classifications under this test FACTOR 3: How much of the work will you use? A small amount, if you're qualifying the book as the work and not the photo (which is the norm). Since #1 and #2 already point towards fair use, even if it was claimed that the photo was the work, it may be justifiable as fair use. FACTOR 4: If this kind of use were widespread, what effect would it have on the market for the original or for permissions? After evaluation of the first three factors, the proposed use is tipping towards fair use So it looks like Sylvia is in the clear at a basic level. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re:[ h-cost] Costume photos
But you'll have a very hard time getting ANY published material copied at Kinko's. Ten years or so ago they were the subject of a big copyright-violation suit because they were helping/encouraging faculty to make their own textbooks with photocopied materials, and neither the faculty nor Kinko's pursued the necessary permissions. Since then, Kinko's has been DEFINITELY once burned, twice shy with copying. Some years ago I wanted to make little thank-you cards for my TWELFTH NIGHT cast, and since we had danced a lavolta as our curtain call I wanted to put Queen Elizabeth I Dancing with Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester on the front of the card. For that I needed (lacking a color scanner and a color printer at home) a color photocopy of the paintingand the counterperson at Kinko's WOULD NOT PERMIT me to make a tiny copy for this innocuous purpose. Even UNpublished material: My truelove had to photocopy the rough draft of a repair manual he was writing, to ship it to the company he was writing it for--and that Kinko's counterperson, seeing technical drawings bearing the company's name, refused to copy it for him without a written release from the company. --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer p.s. Office Max obliged both times -Original Message- From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Oct 4, 2007 2:43 PM To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re:[ h-cost] Costume photos From Kate: Robin wrote: Copying pages or chunks here and there is something that happens every day in every university library and Kinko's. and Fran replied Ah: So since every crime and violation of law happens every day somewhere, it's OK for you to commit any of them? Kate adds: Kinko's, by the way, is an American chain of copy centers. That is, they were plain-old copy centers when they started sprouting up on college campuses a couple of decades ago. Now they also offer Fedex shipping, office supplies, and a bewildering array of printing/fax/computer services. They're open 24 hours and I have spent many a late night there. I once assembled an anniversary-gift scrapbook there at 3am using their nice selection of acid-free decorative papers and their good paper cutter. I figure the only thing they're missing now is a coffee bar. --Robin _ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Look, I don't live for the approval of email lists, OK? I coule care less if people think I'm nicey-nice. Fran Beteena Paradise wrote: I think everyone gets your point. Too bad the point couldn't have been made in a manner which was a bit less off-putting. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Sharon Collier wrote: What about using designs that are hundreds of years old, but are in a new publication. I teach a blackwork class to 4-5 graders (no fee, just part of the Fines Arts Block at my son's school)and copy images for them to use on their samplers, as it is easier than tracing each one individually. This depends on whether the new publication is a reprint or not. A reprint is material that is published exactly as is. No editing. No redrawing of illustrations. No selection and organization of materials for an anthology; or a selection and organization that is so obvious as to require no originality. For example, every single poem by Robert Burns ever published, reprinted exactly as first published in the exact order of first publication, is a reprint. If the poems are chosen by arbitrary criteria such as best poems, and/or organized by arbitrary criteria such as nature poems, love poems, Scottish poems, etc., then this is a new anthology covered by modern copyright, and copying significant portions of it is a copyright violation. All new material added is covered by modern copyright, such as an introduction, footnotes, glossary, index, and/or appendices; and even, often, the page design and layout. All modern translations from foreign languages are covered by copyright, just as if they had originally been written today in English. If you have an exact reprint of a 16th-century blackwork manual (or the 16th-century blackwork manual itself), yes, you can freely copy the images. If you are using someone else's redrawings or rechartings of the 16th-century manual, you are violating their copyright, whether the students are given the material to trace or whether you photocopy it for them. Legally, they should be told to buy the textbook. It is also legal for you to take the original 16th-century manual or an EXACT reprint (no editing, recharting, etc.), redraw/rechart the images yourself, and hand that work out to your students. But you have to go back to the original. You can't ride on someone else's previous work. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
NO, not necessarily. It is NOT legal to make any use of material you want just because you work for an educational institution. You have to meet a group of fair use factors, not just one of them. See my previous message, mentioning the factors of quantity of material used from one work or by one author, spontaneity (not having time for materials), not being a substitute for buying the works, and so on. Fran Sylvia Rognstad wrote: So it sounds like I'm ok, since I work for an educational institution, huh? Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 11:14 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: Likewise, educational use legally applies to education that takes place within educational institutions, and not to an individual reading any book he or she may find informative (which after all applies to every nonfiction work). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
And yet you argue against generalizations with more generalizations. OK. Here I am with Richard Stim's _Getting Permission: How to License Clear Copyrighted Materials Online Off, which I strongly recommend, along with Stephem Fishman's _The Copyright Handbook. And dutifully paraphrasing what they say in a way that does not violate their copyrights. In an earlier message, I mentioned guidelines for educational use, in addition to the use being merely made by an instructor within an educational institution. There is a specific set of educational fair use guidelines recognized by the US Copyright Office and in the courts as minimum standards. They are laid out in full in Circular 29, and according to Stim, are provided on the US Copyright Office website. I touched on them briefly earlier. Some points particularly relevant to this discussion: * The guidelines do apply to presentation of research findings at noncommercial educational workshops, lectures, etc., as well as within universities and other nonprofit, formal educational institutions. (However, I'd say that not all teaching is presentation of research findings or anything at all new.) * The general idea seems to be to limit copying to only certain rather small quantities of a work, and to a certain rather small quantity of copying for the class as a whole. * They include guidelines for the amount of text used, and let's skip that for this discussion; please refer to Stim's book or to Circular 29. For illustrations, the guidelines are One chart, graph, diagram, drawing, cartoon, or picture per book or per periodical issue. Also, ony nine instances of such copying for one course during one school term are permitted. Also, the use has to be spontaneous; the instructor must have thought of it too late to ask for permission. The guidelines do not permit the copying of material from textbooks, workbooks, etc. created for educational use, as this would usurp the profits of educational publishers. * The bottom line is that the copying is not to be a substitute for having the students purchase the work(s). Because digitizing materials is a fairly new technology, there are several sets of PROPOSED guidelines for using digitized materials for educational purposes, none of which have the force of law nor even, as far as I can tell, well-established use in court cases. But, that doesn't mean that no one will sue anyone over use of digitized works. FACTOR 3: How much of the work will you use? A small amount, if you're qualifying the book as the work and not the photo (which is the norm). Since #1 and #2 already point towards fair use, even if it was claimed that the photo was the work, it may be justifiable as fair use. As far as copyright law goes, a book is not one huge block. Different elements have different copyrights. Especially, it is less defensible to copy and use something that is complete in itself: One pattern, one poem, the set of instructions for one project. As for pictures, not only are they usually complete in themselves, bear in mind that under US law (I understand that the laws of some foreign countries are different, but do not know the details for each country) photographs of paintings and other works of art have their own copyrights, indepedent of the copyright status of the work of art itself. Suppose a Renaissance painting is in an American museum, and the museum photographs it. They can, and often do, charge for the use of that photo. If a different photographer photographs it someday, that photo has its own, different copyright. Museums often charge for use of such photos in books, etc. It's one way they get some revenue. In a book with photos of paintings from many museums, the author or publisher (who does the work and pays for the permissions depends on the publishing contract for that book) may have gone to a great deal of effort and paid a fair amount of money to get permission for each and every photo to be used in that book. That permission does not automatically extend to everyone else who wants to use the photo. If the author, or an ilustrator hired by the author or publisher, has redrawn details of things like garment parts in the original works of art, for greater clarity, than those drawings have their own, modern copyrights. FACTOR 4: If this kind of use were widespread, what effect would it have on the market for the original or for permissions? It can have a great deal of effect. Bear in mind that the copyright owner has a much better grasp of the effect on sales than the copyright violator, and the copyright owner can present that evidence in court. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
On Oct 4, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: FACTOR 4: If this kind of use were widespread, what effect would it have on the market for the original or for permissions? It can have a great deal of effect. Bear in mind that the copyright owner has a much better grasp of the effect on sales than the copyright violator, and the copyright owner can present that evidence in court. I stated at the beginning that I was using the UT test as an example. Go back and read http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/ copypol2.htm#test. Then come back with answers again, or with citations explaining how the analysis of their general counsel (who is trying to give their faculty as much freedom as possible while avoiding litigation) is incorrect. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
I'm sorry, but the UT test is not the only available information on copyright. I am not obligated to consider it so. Why do you not instead read circular 29, or Richard Stim's _Getting Permission_? Fran Andrew T Trembley wrote: On Oct 4, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: FACTOR 4: If this kind of use were widespread, what effect would it have on the market for the original or for permissions? It can have a great deal of effect. Bear in mind that the copyright owner has a much better grasp of the effect on sales than the copyright violator, and the copyright owner can present that evidence in court. I stated at the beginning that I was using the UT test as an example. Go back and read http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/ copypol2.htm#test. Then come back with answers again, or with citations explaining how the analysis of their general counsel (who is trying to give their faculty as much freedom as possible while avoiding litigation) is incorrect. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Because I brought the analysis to the table, I said that it was the foundation of my example, and you're taking the lazy way out by not arguing on the points and positions. Nope. It's quite as reasonable for me to run you around and waste your time--or rather, act as an e-list troll--and insist that unless you write little essays on the books that I assign YOU to read that you are taking the easy way out, as for you to try that game on me. I've been a publishing professional, I've dealt with copyright professionally for over 23 years, and in my brother, I have a lawyer to consult close at hand. I don't need to prove myself to you. So, my first assignment for YOU is for YOU to go buy Richard Stim's _Getting Permissions: How to License Clear Copyrighted Materials Online Off._ It's readily available on the Nolo Press website, on Amazon.com, and probably in libraries. It contains an extensive discussion of this issue. I'm also assigning you to read Stephen Fishman's _The Copyright Handbook_ and his _The Public Domain: How to Find Use Copyright-Free Writings, Music, Art More_, available from the same sources. I need a a 5 to- 10 page, double-spaced essay on fair use of materials in nonprofit educational settings, based on these three works, which I expect you to have read thoroughly and objectively. It's due on Sunday. Unless you prove yourself to me in this fashion, you're taking the easy way out. After all, I'm setting the rules of the game. Enjoy! Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
For F---'s sake, can't you take this to email? Or just let it go already? This is really getting ridiculous. And please do not tell me to create a filter because, if I am not mistaken, the email group is called Historic Costume not My copyright book is bigger than your copyright book or I need to express my opinion until the beaten horse is not only dead but pulverized until there are no discernable lumps left except for those on the foreheads of everyone else on this list from banging their friggin heads against the desk. Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: stuff said by Andy and quoted by Fran Fran's opinion ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
If you want the discussion to end, don't post on it. Fran Beteena Paradise wrote: For F---'s sake, can't you take this to email? Or just let it go already? This is really getting ridiculous. And please do not tell me to create a filter because, if I am not mistaken, the email group is called Historic Costume not My copyright book is bigger than your copyright book or I need to express my opinion until the beaten horse is not only dead but pulverized until there are no discernable lumps left except for those on the foreheads of everyone else on this list from banging their friggin heads against the desk. Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: stuff said by Andy and quoted by Fran Fran's opinion ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
On Oct 4, 2007, at 4:06 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: Because I brought the analysis to the table, I said that it was the foundation of my example, and you're taking the lazy way out by not arguing on the points and positions. Nope. It's quite as reasonable for me to run you around and waste your time--or rather, act as an e-list troll--and insist that unless you write little essays on the books that I assign YOU to read that you are taking the easy way out, as for you to try that game on me. I've been a publishing professional, I've dealt with copyright professionally for over 23 years, and in my brother, I have a lawyer to consult close at hand. I don't need to prove myself to you. I work for a university. We participated in the CSU-SUNY-CUNY Work Group on Ownership, Legal Rights of Use and Fair Use. I listen to our general counsel, who continues to update the work group's Fair Use of Copyrighted Works: A Crucial Element in Educating America. I chose the UT website because it provides a more detailed explanation of the fair use test, but it's exactly the same fair use test that our general counsel provides to faculty http://www.calstate.edu/GC/Docs/Fair_Use.doc. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Regardless, someone who plays a game where they insist _they_ are setting all the rules for a public discussion, and offers no contribution except references to a website they did not write, and then insists that a specific person who does not write essays on the subject at their command using only the reference they happened to have pointed to: Is a troll. Perhaps some other list member would like to oblige you: After all, this is not a private discussion. I have better things to do. Fran I work for a university. We participated in the CSU-SUNY-CUNY Work Group on Ownership, Legal Rights of Use and Fair Use. I listen to our general counsel, who continues to update the work group's Fair Use of Copyrighted Works: A Crucial Element in Educating America. I chose the UT website because it provides a more detailed explanation of the fair use test, but it's exactly the same fair use test that our general counsel provides to faculty http://www.calstate.edu/GC/Docs/Fair_Use.doc. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Lavolta Press wrote: As for pictures, not only are they usually complete in themselves, bear in mind that under US law (I understand that the laws of some foreign countries are different, but do not know the details for each country) photographs of paintings and other works of art have their own copyrights, indepedent of the copyright status of the work of art itself. Suppose a Renaissance painting is in an American museum, and the museum photographs it. They can, and often do, charge for the use of that photo. If a different photographer photographs it someday, that photo has its own, different copyright. Not as black and white as all that anymore -- see Bridgeman v. Corel, as I mentioned yesterday. It is possible that such exact photographs of public domain works are no longer copyrightable in the US unless there is some additional creative content. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel_Corp. for a relatively accessible explanation of this. But as it mentions, it has yet to be cited by any appellate-level circuit court; it's not *officially* the law of the land yet. This does mean, however, if you copy an exact photograph of a Renaissance painting for your SCA Renaissance costuming class, you are probably going to be OK -- in the US. Probably. But not certainly. Anything can happen, and at some point, this might be tested at the Supreme Court level, and it could be you who gets sued in the process. But Bridgeman v. Corel at least means (to me, anyway) that you can use those types of images in the US with a clear conscience, as the original works are public domain, and the photographs themselves are probably not copyrightable based on Bridgeman v Corel. (The sad thing is, even if you are in the right, you can still get sued, and it can still cost you a lot of money. But that is up to each of us to decide whether to take that risk, I guess.) W (For what it's worth, I think this decision is correct; once works are in the public domain, an owner of the physical work should not be able to de facto re-copyright them, as many museums have essentially attempted to do. I know they get income from it, but hijacking the public domain is unethical, and in a way contrary to the general mission of most museums. But that is just my opinion.) *---+---+--* \ Wendi Dunlap-Simpson | litlnemo at slumberland.seattle.wa.us | dear/ / Seattle, Wash., USA | http://www.slumberland.seattle.wa.us | 23 \ *--Somehow everything will be a little different than you thought* ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
The students are 9-11 yrs. old and we only have 6 45 min. classes. I don't think I can ask them to buy a book for that. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:54 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos Sharon Collier wrote: What about using designs that are hundreds of years old, but are in a new publication. I teach a blackwork class to 4-5 graders (no fee, just part of the Fines Arts Block at my son's school)and copy images for them to use on their samplers, as it is easier than tracing each one individually. This depends on whether the new publication is a reprint or not. A reprint is material that is published exactly as is. No editing. No redrawing of illustrations. No selection and organization of materials for an anthology; or a selection and organization that is so obvious as to require no originality. For example, every single poem by Robert Burns ever published, reprinted exactly as first published in the exact order of first publication, is a reprint. If the poems are chosen by arbitrary criteria such as best poems, and/or organized by arbitrary criteria such as nature poems, love poems, Scottish poems, etc., then this is a new anthology covered by modern copyright, and copying significant portions of it is a copyright violation. All new material added is covered by modern copyright, such as an introduction, footnotes, glossary, index, and/or appendices; and even, often, the page design and layout. All modern translations from foreign languages are covered by copyright, just as if they had originally been written today in English. If you have an exact reprint of a 16th-century blackwork manual (or the 16th-century blackwork manual itself), yes, you can freely copy the images. If you are using someone else's redrawings or rechartings of the 16th-century manual, you are violating their copyright, whether the students are given the material to trace or whether you photocopy it for them. Legally, they should be told to buy the textbook. It is also legal for you to take the original 16th-century manual or an EXACT reprint (no editing, recharting, etc.), redraw/rechart the images yourself, and hand that work out to your students. But you have to go back to the original. You can't ride on someone else's previous work. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Thanks! I never thought of Dover. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Catherine Olanich Raymond Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 7:02 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos On Thursday 04 October 2007, Sharon Collier wrote: The students are 9-11 yrs. old and we only have 6 45 min. classes. I don't think I can ask them to buy a book for that. Doesn't Dover have any books of public-domain clip art that would serve the purpose? -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available.-- Gregory Benford ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re:[ h-cost] Costume photos
On Oct 4, 2007, at 12:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But you'll have a very hard time getting ANY published material copied at Kinko's. Ten years or so ago they were the subject of a big copyright-violation suit because they were helping/encouraging faculty to make their own textbooks with photocopied materials, and neither the faculty nor Kinko's pursued the necessary permissions. Since then, Kinko's has been DEFINITELY once burned, twice shy with copying. Some years ago I wanted to make little thank-you cards for my TWELFTH NIGHT cast, and since we had danced a lavolta as our curtain call I wanted to put Queen Elizabeth I Dancing with Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester on the front of the card. For that I needed (lacking a color scanner and a color printer at home) a color photocopy of the paintingand the counterperson at Kinko's WOULD NOT PERMIT me to make a tiny copy for this innocuous purpose. Even UNpublished material: My truelove had to photocopy the rough draft of a repair manual he was writing, to ship it to the company he was writing it for--and that Kinko's counterperson, seeing technical drawings bearing the company's name, refused to copy it for him without a written release from the company. The conscientious counter person at Kinko's once tried to refuse me permission to make multiple copies of MY OWN WORK because it had a copyright notice on it. I eventually convinced the manager that it was okay, but I was quite amused. :) OChris Laning [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Lavolta Press wrote: So, my first assignment for YOU is for YOU to go buy Richard Stim's _Getting Permissions: How to License Clear Copyrighted Materials Online Off._ It's readily available on the Nolo Press website, on Amazon.com, and probably in libraries. It contains an extensive discussion of this issue. Stim's work is the second reference I cited. He's the author of the Copyright and Fair Use Overview section at the Stanford's Copyright and Fair Use project. _Getting Permissions_ forms the core of that section. If you were checking citations instead of just tossing them around, you would have figured that out. I even cited him in a way that was easy for all the folks attempting to follow this discussion to follow. http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/index.html So yes, reading Stim is valuable. I did. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
It depends on how historically accurate you want the images to be, but Dover Books have several books of costume images that come with cds containing all of the images in several different formats. The books have Tom Tierney and Braun Schneider illustrations. This shows a few: http://store.doverpublications.com/0486996190.html Teena Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Download pics from the web, put them into your computer picture file and make your own Powerpoint presentation. Works beautifully--- and you don't have to break the binding of the books. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:56 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] costume photos Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. I bought a tripod but that didn't help, so now I'm wondering if I can just buy a collection somewhere. Sylrog ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Good idea, but I'd really like mostly primary sources. I'll check out Dover though. Thanx. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 2:16 AM, Beteena Paradise wrote: It depends on how historically accurate you want the images to be, but Dover Books have several books of costume images that come with cds containing all of the images in several different formats. The books have Tom Tierney and Braun Schneider illustrations. This shows a few: http://store.doverpublications.com/0486996190.html Teena Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Yes, but then I have to search all over the web to find what I want. Do you know one or two good online sources? I'm talking history from ancient Mesopotamia up to the present. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 8:17 AM, monica spence wrote: Download pics from the web, put them into your computer picture file and make your own Powerpoint presentation. Works beautifully--- and you don't have to break the binding of the books. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:56 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] costume photos Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. I bought a tripod but that didn't help, so now I'm wondering if I can just buy a collection somewhere. Sylrog ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Depends opn the period--- I teach the same thing. It took weeks, months to get them to where I was happy. I don't know if there are any short-cuts. Do one a week and you'll be fine. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:49 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos Yes, but then I have to search all over the web to find what I want. Do you know one or two good online sources? I'm talking history from ancient Mesopotamia up to the present. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 8:17 AM, monica spence wrote: Download pics from the web, put them into your computer picture file and make your own Powerpoint presentation. Works beautifully--- and you don't have to break the binding of the books. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:56 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] costume photos Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. I bought a tripod but that didn't help, so now I'm wondering if I can just buy a collection somewhere. Sylrog ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Unless Dover has some really great new books, I would not go with Dover's images. They are line drawings. So are the Tom Tierney and Braun Schneider illustrations. There is a really expensive ($150+) costume cd on Amazon, but I do not know how good it is. If You Google Images under a painter's name or a time period (eg: Bronzino or Sixteenth century clothing), you will get great sources-- period paintings. For real primary sources (clothes) look in Museum collections. You will be able to get things you have not seen in books lots of times. I have been teaching costume history for years and When I made my CDs to teach each topic/ period, that is what I did and the students love the pictures. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:46 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos Good idea, but I'd really like mostly primary sources. I'll check out Dover though. Thanx. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 2:16 AM, Beteena Paradise wrote: It depends on how historically accurate you want the images to be, but Dover Books have several books of costume images that come with cds containing all of the images in several different formats. The books have Tom Tierney and Braun Schneider illustrations. This shows a few: http://store.doverpublications.com/0486996190.html Teena Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
I know what you mean. I'm trying to do a very brief overview of history in my costume and fashion industry class and I just don't have time for all this this semester. Maybe I can work on it over winter break. As it is, the job pays so poorly that I end up making about $5 an hour with even a minimum amount of prep time. Gotta start looking for a better teaching job, although at my age, I doubt I can find one. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 9:28 AM, monica spence wrote: Depends opn the period--- I teach the same thing. It took weeks, months to get them to where I was happy. I don't know if there are any short-cuts. Do one a week and you'll be fine. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:49 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos Yes, but then I have to search all over the web to find what I want. Do you know one or two good online sources? I'm talking history from ancient Mesopotamia up to the present. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 8:17 AM, monica spence wrote: Download pics from the web, put them into your computer picture file and make your own Powerpoint presentation. Works beautifully--- and you don't have to break the binding of the books. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:56 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] costume photos Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. I bought a tripod but that didn't help, so now I'm wondering if I can just buy a collection somewhere. Sylrog ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Sylvia Rognstad wrote: Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. Use a scanner. It's much easier to get a good image than with a camera. You can find them anywhere, computer stores, department stores, office supply, and they start under $100 -- sometimes under $50. If you're going to be using it to take many pictures, it may be a worthwhile investment. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Be sure you make sure that the pics are not under copywrite, though - or get permission first. Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:18 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] costume photos Download pics from the web, put them into your computer picture file and make your own Powerpoint presentation. Works beautifully--- and you don't have to break the binding of the books. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:56 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] costume photos Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. I bought a tripod but that didn't help, so now I'm wondering if I can just buy a collection somewhere. Sylrog ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
On Oct 3, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote: Be sure you make sure that the pics are not under copywrite, though - or get permission first. Copywriting is what a copywriter does. Copyright is an intellectual property. Simply put, it's the right to control reproduction and use of a work. That's why it's right and not write. Copywrite is, well, nothing. It's kind of like irregardless. It's a non-word substituted for a real one. If this is for non-profit educational use, it may fall under fair use. The University of Texas has an excellent Crash Course in Copyright with an extensive section (that's understandable by the hoi polloi, not just lawyers) on fair use. http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/copypol2.htm andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
I have a scanner but it only works with my old computer and to transfer images to my laptop or burn cds doesn't work. Why I hadn't thought of that at this point, beats me. Guess I just need to buy a new scanner. Thanks for bringing that up, although I do recall when I used to use the scanner I have it didn't print book photos very well. I can't remember if they looked better on the computer. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 10:18 AM, Dawn wrote: Sylvia Rognstad wrote: Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. Use a scanner. It's much easier to get a good image than with a camera. You can find them anywhere, computer stores, department stores, office supply, and they start under $100 -- sometimes under $50. If you're going to be using it to take many pictures, it may be a worthwhile investment. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
This DVD: http://www.digitale-bibliothek.de/scripts/ts.dll?mp=/art/1716/ might be useful to you; you can see the types of images it has at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:The_Yorck_Project In fact, you could just as easily browse through all they have in the second link (keep hitting the next 200 link, as there's TONS--10,000!) rather than trying to deal with ordering from a German language site. They do have images from lots of eras, though I don't know how far back they go. For more info on the project the legalities (public domain) read this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:10%2C000_paintings_from_Directmedia -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:55 PM, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/ fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. I bought a tripod but that didn't help, so now I'm wondering if I can just buy a collection somewhere. I'm all for scanners if you can do it without breaking the binding. If the originals are too large, use a camera and a copy stand. They're available on eBay pretty cheap. I've been meaning to get a copy stand to photograph patterned fabrics with a large repeat. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Sorry Andy - brain fart. Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew T Trembley Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 3:12 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos On Oct 3, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote: Be sure you make sure that the pics are not under copywrite, though - or get permission first. Copywriting is what a copywriter does. Copyright is an intellectual property. Simply put, it's the right to control reproduction and use of a work. That's why it's right and not write. Copywrite is, well, nothing. It's kind of like irregardless. It's a non-word substituted for a real one. If this is for non-profit educational use, it may fall under fair use. The University of Texas has an excellent Crash Course in Copyright with an extensive section (that's understandable by the hoi polloi, not just lawyers) on fair use. http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/copypol2.htm andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Does one need permission just to take pics to show for a class? There's no way I am going to try to do that for all the books I'm copying out of. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 11:52 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote: Be sure you make sure that the pics are not under copywrite, though - or get permission first. Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 10:18 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] costume photos Download pics from the web, put them into your computer picture file and make your own Powerpoint presentation. Works beautifully--- and you don't have to break the binding of the books. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:56 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] costume photos Do any of you costume instructors know of a source for costume/fashion history cds? I've been trying to take photos out of books but either I can't keep the book flat or I can't keep the camera steady enough so the pictures come out decently. I bought a tripod but that didn't help, so now I'm wondering if I can just buy a collection somewhere. Sylrog ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: Does one need permission just to take pics to show for a class? There's no way I am going to try to do that for all the books I'm copying out of. http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/copypol2.htm UT's Crash Course in Copyright. Short answer: probably not. Read it, though. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
In a message dated 10/3/2007 7:29:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:The_Yorck_Project ** Nice! But they're alphabetized by the artists' FIRST names Weird. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
In a message dated 10/3/2007 8:53:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Copywriting is what a copywriter does. Copyright is an intellectual property. Simply put, it's the right to control reproduction and use of a work. That's why it's right and not write. *** How about a copywright? [One who makes or builds a copy?] :-P ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:05:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Oct 3, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: Does one need permission just to take pics to show for a class? There's no way I am going to try to do that for all the books I'm copying out of. http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/copypol2.htm UT's Crash Course in Copyright. Short answer: probably not. Read it, though. * It seems to me you only need permission if you're making money directly off the image. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
...or maybe copywights for virtual copies. :-) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 10/3/2007 9:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume photos In a message dated 10/3/2007 8:53:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Copywriting is what a copywriter does. Copyright is an intellectual property. Simply put, it's the right to control reproduction and use of a work. That's why it's right and not write. *** How about a copywright? [One who makes or builds a copy?] :-P ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com http://www.aol.com/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
It seems to me you only need permission if you're making money directly off the image. A common misconception, but it's not true. Whether or not you use the image to make money (or even if you just charge money to cover the expenses of publishing and don't make anything) is irrelevant to whether you have the right to publish the image in the first place. (If that doesn't make sense, consider that if you give away my work for free, you are still potentially damaging my ability to earn money from my own work, if I so choose. You have also violated my right to control or even prohibit the distribution of my work, which is independent of monetary issues.) Another common misconception: As long as you give credit by naming the creator, you can publish it without asking permission. Not true. That frees you from a charge of plagiarism, but not from copyright restrictions. That said, if you don't ask for money and you give credit, and you get called into court, the fact that you showed good intent and didn't profit may reduce or eliminate the amount of money the court makes you pay. --Robin _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
But I'm not publishing the photos I copy. You keep using the word publish. Sylrog On Oct 3, 2007, at 8:37 PM, Robin Netherton wrote: It seems to me you only need permission if you're making money directly off the image. A common misconception, but it's not true. Whether or not you use the image to make money (or even if you just charge money to cover the expenses of publishing and don't make anything) is irrelevant to whether you have the right to publish the image in the first place. (If that doesn't make sense, consider that if you give away my work for free, you are still potentially damaging my ability to earn money from my own work, if I so choose. You have also violated my right to control or even prohibit the distribution of my work, which is independent of monetary issues.) Another common misconception: As long as you give credit by naming the creator, you can publish it without asking permission. Not true. That frees you from a charge of plagiarism, but not from copyright restrictions. That said, if you don't ask for money and you give credit, and you get called into court, the fact that you showed good intent and didn't profit may reduce or eliminate the amount of money the court makes you pay. --Robin _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html? ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] costume photos
But I'm not publishing the photos I copy. You keep using the word publish. I was speaking about copyright law, not about you specifically; I didn't want the previous comment (you only need permission if you're making money off it) to stand without discussion, because the issue of money is so often misunderstood. Whether you need permission does not depend on whether money changes hands. In your case, you may well not need permission anyway, but whether you're making money doesn't have anything to do with that. Copyright law focuses on publishing -- that is, creation and distribution of copies of creative work that someone owns. I didn't follow the beginning of this thread closely, so I don't know what you're doing or whether the law applies to you. I am not a lawyer, but here's my understanding of some practical situations I often see in my own work: If you take photos from the book, make slides, and show them to a class, you're fine. Making slides to display for an educational presentation is well within every interpretation of copyright law I've ever read. Note that I refer specifically to educational presentation. If you are putting on a show for entertainment (even for free), you are no longer on firm ground. If you make handouts with copies of the images, you are on muddier ground, because people can take the images home with them. If you make a CD and distribute it to the students, even as a textbook of sorts, you're over the line (regardless of whether they pay any money). These count as publishing. If you put one of the pictures on a poster for a school event, you are over the line, but probably no one will bother you about it. If you put a picture into a newsletter or magazine, or onto a web page, you are over the line and may very well be pursued over it. This is something I have experienced from both sides! And when was I pursued? Not me, but the magazine I worked for. Our designer created a cover design that used a Superman type treatment about super fund raisers and a visual image of an office worker opening his shirt to reveal a dollar sign treated like Superman's S. DC Comics saw one and made us destroy every remaining copy. I don't remember if we had to pay money too. Another, less disastrous example. In leafing through a trade magazine, I noticed an article on a magazine designer that included a photo of him in his studio. Clearly visible on the wall of the studio was a piece of art showing an illuminated alphabet -- a signed and numbered art print I recognized because I own the same print myself. Amused, I sent a copy of the magazine to the artist, who was a personal friend. He saw something I hadn't noticed: The article itself used, as a decorative element, one of the illuminated letters taken from the poster. The photo of the framed poster on the wall was fine. The lifting of the letter from the poster and its placement as an art element in a published article was theft. My friend sent a thank-you note to me, and sent a modest bill for his graphic artwork to the magazine editor. The bill was paid. I myself have had a copyright case in court, part of a group of a dozen writers who did work for a company that declared bankruptcy before paying us. As part of its bankruptcy proceedings, it sold its intellectual assets, including the work that we had written. We sued on grounds that they didn't yet own copyright to the work and thus couldn't legally sell it. We won. Having established our claim to the property (which we didn't really care about, as the articles were made to suit a particular publication and weren't useful to us), our lawyer then negotiated a small settlement with the purchasing company to give up our claim. Pennies on the dollar compared to what we would have gotten in pay for our work, but at least it was something. Closer to the point here: I use slides of artwork in my lectures, as many as 100 in a single lecture. Some come from books. Some come from the artwork itself; of the latter, some of the photos were taken under explicit agreements with the owning libraries/museums regarding how I would use the images (e.g. research and teaching, but not publication or distribution). My use is legal; if I disseminated the images, it would not be. When I have used images in my published papers, I have paid for reproduction permission. Last time I did a lecture, I was almost at the end before I learned that someone in the audience had been using her cellphone to take a picture of every single one of my slides. (The room is dark when I show slides, so I didn't see her.) We had a serious talk. If one of those carefully negotiated photos appears on a website, it could destroy my relationship with a museum. From now on, I will have to make an announcement that This Is Not Permitted. This question never came up 10 years ago! --Robin _ Windows Live
Re: **JUNK** RE: [h-cost] costume photos
Robin Netherton wrote: And when was I pursued? Not me, but the magazine I worked for. Our designer created a cover design that used a Superman type treatment about super fund raisers and a visual image of an office worker opening his shirt to reveal a dollar sign treated like Superman's S. DC Comics saw one and made us destroy every remaining copy. I don't remember if we had to pay money too. That's trademark, an entirely different and much stranger subject. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] costume photos
Robin Netherton wrote: But I'm not publishing the photos I copy. You keep using the word publish. I was speaking about copyright law, not about you specifically; I didn't want the previous comment (you only need permission if you're making money off it) to stand without discussion, because the issue of money is so often misunderstood. Whether you need permission does not depend on whether money changes hands. In your case, you may well not need permission anyway, but whether you're making money doesn't have anything to do with that. Copyright law focuses on publishing Actually, copyright literally covers making copies, and does not only apply to distribution or sale of them. Scanning is copying. Photocopying is copying. Using a digital camera to capture a book is copying. This is why it's illegal to copy a copyrighted book to save yourself the price of buying it; you're publishing a one-off for yourself. Likewise, educational use legally applies to education that takes place within educational institutions, and not to an individual reading any book he or she may find informative (which after all applies to every nonfiction work). Fran Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: **JUNK** RE: [h-cost] costume photos
I wrote And when was I pursued? Not me, but the magazine I worked for. Our designer created a cover design that used a Superman type treatment about super fund raisers and a visual image of an office worker opening his shirt to reveal a dollar sign treated like Superman's S. DC Comics saw one and made us destroy every remaining copy. I don't remember if we had to pay money too. That's trademark, an entirely different and much stranger subject. Oops, yes, you're right. I was mentally meandering around examples of rights, and remembered the one time I worked at a publication that was hit for a violation. Trademark, in this case, though I suppose if our designer had actually taken the art off a comic book cover and used it in his design, copyright would have come into play too! --Robin _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
