Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Robin wrote: If you're seeing the whole page that has coiffet as its first entry, you're on the right page. Below that is coiffure, which has a bunch of subsections. Look in the right-hand column of that page, toward the bottom, long paragraph dated 1428. But I'm not! By virtual clipping I meant a reproduction of a section of the page not much more than an inch wide. Clicking on it had no effect. Kate Bunting Librarian 17th century reenactor The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Kate Bunting wrote: Robin wrote: If you're seeing the whole page that has coiffet as its first entry, you're on the right page. Below that is coiffure, which has a bunch of subsections. Look in the right-hand column of that page, toward the bottom, long paragraph dated 1428. But I'm not! By virtual clipping I meant a reproduction of a section of the page not much more than an inch wide. Clicking on it had no effect. I have no idea what to advise ... but I found I had to tinker on the page a bit to make it work. Try putting hennin in the search box and running the search again, and clicking on a few of the other options, to see if it frees up the image. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
If you don't live in the US, you need to use a US web proxy in order to read the books. At 10:00 2010-01-25, you wrote: Robin wrote: If you're seeing the whole page that has coiffet as its first entry, you're on the right page. Below that is coiffure, which has a bunch of subsections. Look in the right-hand column of that page, toward the bottom, long paragraph dated 1428. But I'm not! By virtual clipping I meant a reproduction of a section of the page not much more than an inch wide. Clicking on it had no effect. Kate Bunting Librarian 17th century reenactor ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Kate Bunting wrote: It's not my area of interest, but as I can read French and am interested in words I looked at the Gay book out of curiosity. All I got when I searched on hennin was a virtual clipping from the book showing the word coiffet, and I was unable to proceed further. How do you get to see the story? If you're seeing the whole page that has coiffet as its first entry, you're on the right page. Below that is coiffure, which has a bunch of subsections. Look in the right-hand column of that page, toward the bottom, long paragraph dated 1428. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
What's bothering me here is, why should these headdresses be associated with roosters? Roosters are male, and these are female fashions. Yes, I know a cock has a comb on its head but still, this seems to be a stretch. Even if it's an insult, it seems to me that there should be some kind of rationale behind the term and that should be recognizable. It could be some cuckold variant. Taking the comb from the male and wearing it herself? http://www.jstor.org/pss/539989 Then they also cut off the rooster's crest in order to remove all of his virility. http://tinyurl.com/ybn59lo A dictionary of sexual language and imagery in Shakespearean and Stuart Literature Volume 2 By Gordon Williams. Michaela who spent many years studying Shakespeare and Chaucer and cannot think of these times as prude in any way shape or form ;) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Charles VI of France was married to Isabelle/Isabeau/Isabel of Bavaria. The only Anne of Bavaria that i can find was born in the 1600s. The hennins in France and Burgundy were varied. http://www.rameset.com/images/Steeple%20Hennin2.jpg http://www.worldofdana.com/images/hennin1memling.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yd2vrg4 my favorite site for burgundian http://cadieux.mediumaevum.com/burgundian-hennin.html netherlands http://tinyurl.com/y8fyrfr De -Original Message- In British Costume form earliest times to 1820, by Mrs Charles H. Ashdown, it states on page86 that earlier than 1460-1480, the steeple Headress was popular. This style which was more flat on top in England was called HenninsIt further states that it is attributed to Anne of Bavaria, Queen to Charles VI of France. The word Hennis was forcibly derived by some French writers from the old verb gehenner(modern gener), to trouble or incommode. Apparently the way to wear it was at a 45 degree angle on your head. I have no idea how accurate this is. I do know that it was a very popular headress on the continent during that time. I also know that there is a smaller type that was worn in Persia. The ones in Franch were very tall and pointed. The ones English were also very tall and looked like elongated flower pots. i hope this hewlps. LynnI Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Robin: I, of course, got the authors' names wrong, so I undoubtedly completely confused you. I can't find the French version at work, so it's probably in stratum 5 or 6 at home: I shall find it tonight to compare and contrast. However, my never to be praised sufficiently intern found the salient passage in Pipponier and Mane (not Perrine; that's Mane's first name). Page 13 (again, annoyingly not footnoted): Extreme caution is necessary, however, if erroneous identifications are to be avoided. One of the most famous examples is the word 'hennin', applied to the tall pointed hates worn by women at the beginning of the fifteenth century and used on the strength of a much later commentary, at several removes from the original. It appears that a preacher, who was a member of an order particularly opposed to women's interest in personal adornment, promised indulgences who would help him in his mission by shouting 'Au hennin!' at any woman wearing such headgear. His invective was taken to be the actual name of the hat. So, if someone knows medieval French well enough to say what au hennin means, that might make sense. Or it might be apocryphal. I will check the French version, though, just to see if it is more forthcoming. You probably knew this passage. On 1/18/10 8:51 PM, Robin Netherton ro...@netherton.net wrote: Nordtorp-Madson, Michelle A. wrote: Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. It's the word, not the shape, I'm trying to track ... or am I missing something? --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Nordtorp-Madson, Michelle A. wrote: Robin: I, of course, got the authors' names wrong, so I undoubtedly completely confused you. I can't find the French version at work, so it's probably in stratum 5 or 6 at home: I shall find it tonight to compare and contrast. However, my never to be praised sufficiently intern found the salient passage in Pipponier and Mane (not Perrine; that's Mane's first name). Page 13 (again, annoyingly not footnoted): Extreme caution is necessary, however, if erroneous identifications are to be avoided. One of the most famous examples is the word 'hennin', applied to the tall pointed hates worn by women at the beginning of the fifteenth century and used on the strength of a much later commentary, at several removes from the original. It appears that a preacher, who was a member of an order particularly opposed to women's interest in personal adornment, promised indulgences who would help him in his mission by shouting 'Au hennin!' at any woman wearing such headgear. His invective was taken to be the actual name of the hat. So, if someone knows medieval French well enough to say what au hennin means, that might make sense. Or it might be apocryphal. I will check the French version, though, just to see if it is more forthcoming. You probably knew this passage. That's exactly the story my inquirer relayed to me ... only she learned it in a class quite a long time ago, probably earlier than Piponnier and Mane published. I think it was an in earlier source. So, it might be right ... or it might be something PM picked up from the older source, assumed was right, and repeated. It wouldn't be the only time they did so. Yes, the lack of footnotes in that book is maddening. I have only the English version. Audrey noted earlier that hennin meant rooster in French, so the story could be true ... or it could be a completely straightforward derivation! The meaning of the word is not necessarily an insult itself. In any case, I wish I could nail down someone who was doing French or Flemish inventory work in this particular period. There had to be some common terms used for women's headgear, and the marked absence of hennin in the presence of other terms would be as telling as the presence of hennin. I know a number of people doing work on inventories, but I can't think of anyone working in this particular region, period, and language! (If I were at a library right now, I'd check a copy of Victor Gay's _Glossaire archéologique du moyen age et de la renaissance_, a French dictionary that includes clothing terms and that has specific citations to French medieval documents, rather like the OED cites English documents. Gay's interpretations are no better than any other 19th-century scholar's, but the primary quotations are golden. But no library trips for me in the near future, and this is not a request for anyone else to do extra footwork; that is the next step I will suggest to the person who has asked for the information.) --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Robin: My brilliant, and by-lingual intern showed me how to access Gay on-line. Hennin was easily found, along with a source citation. http://books.google.fr/books?id=xKcTQAAJprintsec=frontcoverdq=victor+gay+glossaire+archéologique+du+moyen+age+et+du+renaissancesource=blots=STwKCgNsEVsig=nYh6dJbB7L_oHdB5vBNCHmlkTNAhl=frei=ciZXS8LyEYHkNbqXgNQEsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultresnum=1ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepageq=Henninf=false It was under hair/coiffure things. On 1/20/10 9:40 AM, Robin Netherton ro...@netherton.net wrote: _Glossaire archéologique du moyen age et de la renaissance ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Audrey noted earlier that hennin meant rooster in French, so the story could be true ... or it could be a completely straightforward derivation! The meaning of the word is not necessarily an insult itself. No, careful! The FRENCH word hennin comes from the Netherlandish for rooster! According to the Robert, in any case! (The French word for rooster is coq...) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Shelly and her brilliant intern get the virtual chocolate! I had a feeling that if the clue existed, it would be in Gay, but I didn't think to try looking it up online. Gay indeed had the detailed original story of the children sent to mock the women in the high hats. And it's dated to 1428. Hennin doesn't appear elsewhere in this copious reference, and if it had been picked up as a hat term, it would have shown up in its own right. With my imperfect French, I discern that the hats themselves have various names in the passage -- atours, cornes -- but au hennin was indeed the cry of the children sent by the preacher. (The surrounding references have even more hat terms from this period, and more hints of their style and decoration; I'm sure each version had its own name.) And as the preacher is cited as being from Bretagne, and the events as occurring in Flanders and nearby regions, Audrey's connection of the French hennin as originating with the Netherlandish rooster may well apply here. When hennin began being used straight-facedly as a hat term would be a worthy question to pursue ... for someone else, not me, though this is the kind of thing I find particularly interesting. I learned something new today -- several things, one of which is that Gay is searchable online, and I don't need to make a trip to the university library to check it. Wahoo. --Robin Nordtorp-Madson, Michelle A. wrote: Robin: My brilliant, and by-lingual intern showed me how to access Gay on-line. Hennin was easily found, along with a source citation. http://books.google.fr/books?id=xKcTQAAJprintsec=frontcoverdq=victor+gay+glossaire+archéologique+du+moyen+age+et+du+renaissancesource=blots=STwKCgNsEVsig=nYh6dJbB7L_oHdB5vBNCHmlkTNAhl=frei=ciZXS8LyEYHkNbqXgNQEsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultresnum=1ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepageq=Henninf=false It was under hair/coiffure things. On 1/20/10 9:40 AM, Robin Netherton ro...@netherton.net wrote: _Glossaire archéologique du moyen age et de la renaissance ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
What i find interesting is that most of the women that wore such a headdress were women of upper and noble class. For lower class children to mock upper class might have had repercussions towards family of those children. So I find the story more of a tale then actual. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
By the way, has anyone looked into whether hennin is a personal name? Someone prominent who wore the head-dress? Or maybe some common first name or nickname (the way moll got associated with prostitutes)? Or a place name--somewhere the head-dresses or materials used to make them were made? Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com What's bothering me here is, why should these headdresses be associated with roosters? Roosters are male, and these are female fashions. Yes, I know a cock has a comb on its head but still, this seems to be a stretch. Even if it's an insult, it seems to me that there should be some kind of rationale behind the term and that should be recognizable. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
What's bothering me here is, why should these headdresses be associated with roosters? Roosters are male, and these are female fashions. Yes, I know a cock has a comb on its head but still, this seems to be a stretch. Even if it's an insult, it seems to me that there should be some kind of rationale behind the term and that should be recognizable. Roosters used to be ubiquitous - watch any flock of chickens for a while and you'll see that roosters spend a great deal of time posturing, posing, struting and showing off. That seems like a good lead in for a name that teases an extreme fashion or the wears of. Denise B ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
In British Costume form earliest times to 1820, by Mrs Charles H. Ashdown, it states on page86 that earlier than 1460-1480, the steeple Headress was popular. This style which was more flat on top in England was called HenninsIt further states that it is attributed to Anne of Bavaria, Queen to Charles VI of France. The word Hennis was forcibly derived by some French writers from the old verb gehenner(modern gener), to trouble or incommode. Apparently the way to wear it was at a 45 degree angle on your head. I have no idea how accurate this is. I do know that it was a very popular headress on the continent during that time. I also know that there is a smaller type that was worn in Persia. The ones in Franch were very tall and pointed. The ones English were also very tall and looked like elongated flower pots. i hope this hewlps. LynnI From: Nordtorp-Madson, Michelle A. manordto...@stthomas.edu To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Mon, January 18, 2010 9:08:48 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] The term hennin Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton [ro...@netherton.net] Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:42 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The term hennin otsisto wrote: I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) The word is used in modern English (and it's in the OED as such), and the OED gives etymologies, so I was hoping for a clue -- but as I noted, OED is not my reference of choice for costume terms, just what I happened to have at hand. I'm not at a library today. I was rather hoping someone had already trodden this ground before, so I could give my inquirer an accepted answer. But it's not a question I'm going to be able to take time to research, and I don't expect anyone else to spend a lot of time on it. I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. That's as good an idea as any, and probably more likely than hent or henne. Julian was probably right to look at medieval Flemish, but that's way out of my range of references at hand. Overall, though, it's sounding like there isn't a previously researched, accepted etymology. Rather, it might be good subject for a research project. In this case, for someone else, not me! Regardless of etymology, though, even one contemporary inventory reference that uses the word would answer my inquirer's question, as she was told the word wasn't actually used for the headdress in the period, except perhaps as a term of derision. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
My French dictionaries say henne (should have an accent on the second E) means henna, while hennir means to neigh or whinny (like a horse). Don't know if that helps at all. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 2:08 PM To: Historic Costume List Subject: [h-cost] The term hennin I've been asked about the origins of the word hennin, commonly used today for a range of 15th-century tall headdresses. I was surprised that the OED doesn't trace it back any further than the 19th c., but the OED is notoriously bad with clothing terminology, and I don't have access at the moment to the MED. Does anyone have anything more concrete -- either an MED reference, or any citation to an actual 15th c. inventory or other document that uses the term? The person who asked me was taught (quite some time ago) that it was a derogatory term used to criticize women's headdresses, but I am skeptical of the story she was told. However, it's certainly not unprecedented for 18th and 19th c. costume historians to pick up the wrong word from historical references and establish it as the going term for a garment, or to make up a term that gets entrenched in the literature. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Ladies - try medieval Flemish or Breton for a source. Just a suggestion. Julain Wilson --- On Mon, 18/1/10, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com wrote: From: Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] The term hennin To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Date: Monday, 18 January, 2010, 23:31 My French dictionaries say henne (should have an accent on the second E) means henna, while hennir means to neigh or whinny (like a horse). Don't know if that helps at all. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 2:08 PM To: Historic Costume List Subject: [h-cost] The term hennin I've been asked about the origins of the word hennin, commonly used today for a range of 15th-century tall headdresses. I was surprised that the OED doesn't trace it back any further than the 19th c., but the OED is notoriously bad with clothing terminology, and I don't have access at the moment to the MED. Does anyone have anything more concrete -- either an MED reference, or any citation to an actual 15th c. inventory or other document that uses the term? The person who asked me was taught (quite some time ago) that it was a derogatory term used to criticize women's headdresses, but I am skeptical of the story she was told. However, it's certainly not unprecedented for 18th and 19th c. costume historians to pick up the wrong word from historical references and establish it as the going term for a garment, or to make up a term that gets entrenched in the literature. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. Hope this helps, De -Original Message- I've been asked about the origins of the word hennin, commonly used today for a range of 15th-century tall headdresses. I was surprised that the OED doesn't trace it back any further than the 19th c., but the OED is notoriously bad with clothing terminology, and I don't have access at the moment to the MED. Does anyone have anything more concrete -- either an MED reference, or any citation to an actual 15th c. inventory or other document that uses the term? The person who asked me was taught (quite some time ago) that it was a derogatory term used to criticize women's headdresses, but I am skeptical of the story she was told. However, it's certainly not unprecedented for 18th and 19th c. costume historians to pick up the wrong word from historical references and establish it as the going term for a garment, or to make up a term that gets entrenched in the literature. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
otsisto wrote: I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) The word is used in modern English (and it's in the OED as such), and the OED gives etymologies, so I was hoping for a clue -- but as I noted, OED is not my reference of choice for costume terms, just what I happened to have at hand. I'm not at a library today. I was rather hoping someone had already trodden this ground before, so I could give my inquirer an accepted answer. But it's not a question I'm going to be able to take time to research, and I don't expect anyone else to spend a lot of time on it. I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. That's as good an idea as any, and probably more likely than hent or henne. Julian was probably right to look at medieval Flemish, but that's way out of my range of references at hand. Overall, though, it's sounding like there isn't a previously researched, accepted etymology. Rather, it might be good subject for a research project. In this case, for someone else, not me! Regardless of etymology, though, even one contemporary inventory reference that uses the word would answer my inquirer's question, as she was told the word wasn't actually used for the headdress in the period, except perhaps as a term of derision. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton [ro...@netherton.net] Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:42 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The term hennin otsisto wrote: I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) The word is used in modern English (and it's in the OED as such), and the OED gives etymologies, so I was hoping for a clue -- but as I noted, OED is not my reference of choice for costume terms, just what I happened to have at hand. I'm not at a library today. I was rather hoping someone had already trodden this ground before, so I could give my inquirer an accepted answer. But it's not a question I'm going to be able to take time to research, and I don't expect anyone else to spend a lot of time on it. I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. That's as good an idea as any, and probably more likely than hent or henne. Julian was probably right to look at medieval Flemish, but that's way out of my range of references at hand. Overall, though, it's sounding like there isn't a previously researched, accepted etymology. Rather, it might be good subject for a research project. In this case, for someone else, not me! Regardless of etymology, though, even one contemporary inventory reference that uses the word would answer my inquirer's question, as she was told the word wasn't actually used for the headdress in the period, except perhaps as a term of derision. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Nordtorp-Madson, Michelle A. wrote: Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. It's the word, not the shape, I'm trying to track ... or am I missing something? --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
You're right. My Robert de la langue français says: hennin n.m. (1428; nééerl. henninck coq). So, according to the Robert, it's from the Netherlandish henninck which means rooster, apparently! Audrey On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:23 PM, otsisto otsi...@socket.net wrote: I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. Hope this helps, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
It was more that an Islamic origin would be possibly seen as perjorative. When I get to work tomorrow, I will look it up in P M. I have both French and English versions; neither is footnoted, but at least the French has an index. From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton [ro...@netherton.net] Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 8:51 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The term hennin Nordtorp-Madson, Michelle A. wrote: Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. It's the word, not the shape, I'm trying to track ... or am I missing something? --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
