Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 15 dec 2006, at 14.14, Neil Bartlett wrote: ... The Haskell web server that Simon Peyton-Jones et al described in their paper would be a great example. But where's the download? How do I get a copy to play with? In the real world, things don't stop with the publication of a paper ;-) ... There is a darcs repo with the HWS at: http://darcs.haskell.org/hws/ It's the 2th result if you google for haskell web server (though to be fair, I set up that repo pretty recently just because the original code was hard to find). It's not exactly the original sources, as they have been modified to compile with GHC 6.6 and current library versions. The original code is available from http://cvs.haskell.org/ cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/fptools/hws/ /Björn___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
I think this hits the nail on the head. To be blunt, the presence of so many academics and scientists in the Haskell community is intimidating to those of us that work in industry. Our brains are, after all, not as highly trained as yours, and we care about different things than you do. Now I don't mean to say that the academics and scientists should go away! Far from it. Just that it would be great to hear more about the mundane aspects of programming occasionally. Like, how exactly do I read from a relational database with Haskell? Or process an XML file? Or build an event-driven GUI? And crucially, why does Haskell do those things better than Java, or C#, or Ruby? If somebody could write some articles on those subjects, and get them up on popular websites like Digg or Reddit, this would be far more helpful than yet another monad tutorial. The Haskell web server that Simon Peyton-Jones et al described in their paper would be a great example. But where's the download? How do I get a copy to play with? In the real world, things don't stop with the publication of a paper ;-) I think Haskell has huge potential to improve mainstream programming, if it could only catch on a bit. I don't know how to make that happen, unfortunately (if I did, I would do it, and hopefully get rich in the process). But whatever Haskell needs, it's not getting at the moment. Neil Hello Kaveh, Sunday, December 10, 2006, 6:15:23 PM, you wrote: chosen one. But Haskell seems to be buzz-full research platform. Now again to the top : what is the aim of Haskell project? If it is going to be used in real world applications it needs more attention to real world application developers and their needs. you are right - just now Haskell is a huge technology with non-obvious path to learn. there is some work to make Haskell more pragmatic, but it's an chicken-and-egg problem - we have a small number of pragmatic programmers that use Haskell and therefore it's hard to change Haskell to suit their needs, on the other hand this means that pragmatic programmers can't grok Haskell on the way to make Haskell more pragmatic i especially mention renewal of Haskell standard to include modern language extensions, modern programming environments such as WinHugs or BusinessObjects, development of web/db/gui libraries, and definition of core (standard) libraries set one particular thing that we still lack is something like book Haskell in real world -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
The front end for the comeau compiler is from Edison Design Group, and that's the one that is used by many other compilers. And the EDG compiler is regarded as being the most conformant. Besides MS and the FSF (visual c++ and gcc), both Sun and IBM have c++ compiler toolchains not based on EDG. If they were, my life would be much simpler. The late additions of the STL, and some concommitant changes to how templates worked, really caused a lot of the difficulties in implementation. That, and the installed base problem. Having version N of a language change the meaning of programs targetting version N-1 tends to upset users. The STL, however, brings a very applicative programming model into an otherwise imperative language. And, it turns out that the template language is a turing complete pure functional language, making possible some very interesting type based metaprogramming. Of course, since it wasn't really designed as such, it has to be heavily sugared to be useful. On 12/14/06, Bulat Ziganshin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tomasz, Thursday, December 14, 2006, 11:32:33 PM, you wrote: complete compilers. Two years ago the only full compiler for C++ was Comeau, probably unknown to most C++ programmers. I am not sure about today, but I wouldn't bet that things improved. just because they don't know what sits at back of their compiler? :) someone tells me, that only 2.5 front-ends remain - comeau, gcc and probably MS. all other compilers use comeau, which is not full compiler but just front-end there is old joke that camel is a horse created by committee. Algol-68, Pl/1, Ada and now C++ becomes such large languages that no one can master them in full details -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hello! On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 01:14:38PM -, Neil Bartlett wrote: Just that it would be great to hear more about the mundane aspects of programming occasionally. Like, how exactly do I read from a relational database with Haskell? Or process an XML file? Or build an event-driven GUI? And crucially, why does Haskell do those things better than Java, or C#, or Ruby? If somebody could write some articles on those subjects, You seem to assume no such articles exist, which is wrong. It doesn't take too much searching to find them - I just googled for haskell gui, haskell xml, haskell database and got very relevent links at the top. Don't expect you'll find those articles on your doorstep together with a milk bottle ;-) There are so many topics connected with Haskell that it wouldn't be possible to link them directly from the start page of http://www.haskell.org/. Also, writing articles about the superiority of Haskell over Java, C#, etc. could be seen as (or simply be) chauvinism and arrogance, don't you think? Especially if written by someone like me, who knows Haskell much better than all those languages (so can't program *well* in those languages). Well, you can try with the great programming language shootout, where many people contribute solutions for the same problems in many languages. and get them up on popular websites like Digg or Reddit, this would be far more helpful than yet another monad tutorial. Are you sure it's a good idea to bomb uninterested people with Haskell all the time. Something to get them interested - sure. But when they are interested, I believe they can find what they want mostly on their own. Of course it's good to make the search easier, but it's impossible to eliminate it completely. The Haskell web server that Simon Peyton-Jones et al described in their paper would be a great example. But where's the download? Let me stress this: HWS is an *exception*. It's the only Haskell related thing that I had trouble to find. I think Haskell has huge potential to improve mainstream programming, if it could only catch on a bit. Define a bit. According to my definition, it already happened :-) I don't know how to make that happen, unfortunately Don't start a crusade to convert the people - history shows that such enterprises most often have fatal outcomes. But whatever Haskell needs, it's not getting at the moment. Honestly, I don't see that. To me it seems that everything is going nicely: the language is used, the community is alive, compilers are getting better, libraries are getting better are more numerous, the number of users seems to be increasing. What is the problem? Try to convince me that something is wrong ;-) (I can think of some problems, but I am *not sure* we should be afraid of them). Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/15/06, Tomasz Zielonka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Haskell web server that Simon Peyton-Jones et al described in their paper would be a great example. But where's the download? Let me stress this: HWS is an *exception*. It's the only Haskell related thing that I had trouble to find. This is the only thing I disagree with in your post. I've had at least one of the following questions/problems with all of the libraries/tools that I'm about to list. I'd say some of the questions are normal and expected regardless of language choice but I mention them here because in the case of Haskell it was significantly a problem compared to what I'm used to: Problems: * finding which version is current * where is the documentation * is it still maintained * is this what people are actually using or was it just a proof of concept * where are the tutorials (research papers don't count) * how does it compare with the version commonly found in mainstream languages Libraries: * H/Direct * HOpenGL * HaXML vs. HXT * .NET interoperability? * HDBC * QuickCheck * TH Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. With the exception of HOpenGL I've looked at them with the intention of using them at work where I do windows application development. I now know that most of them have some information I can get from the haskell wiki assuming I search long enough (for some reason the wiki search and google don't find the relevant wiki pages very often when I search). In many cases I end up at the tool/library website and many of my questions are still unanswered. I've now started reading the research papers when I don't immediately see the information I want to know, but a research paper is not what industry types want to look at when they want to know how to write QuickCheck properties (as an example). With a few of the listed libraries I resorted to reading the code to find out what I wanted to know. That's a nice fall back but it shouldn't be the normal way to learn about libraries. The best source of info I've found when trying to pick a library is to ask in #haskell on freenode. Some of the problems I've had are quite silly in some sense. As in the case of HOpenGL. With HOpenGL the documentation can be found and even some extensive PDFs detailing how to use it. But as anyone who has played with HOpenGL can tell you, those long PDFs contain many errors about the exact names of functions (I suspect the library has evolved since the PDF was written) and HOpenGL is quite different than OpenGL in terms of function names. This is partly why I created my ne-he tutorial conversion. So that people would have working example code to play with when they want to start learning HOpenGL. Jason ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/15/06, Jason Dagit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/15/06, Tomasz Zielonka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Haskell web server that Simon Peyton-Jones et al described in their paper would be a great example. But where's the download? Let me stress this: HWS is an *exception*. It's the only Haskell related thing that I had trouble to find. This is the only thing I disagree with in your post. As someone learning about Haskell while working in industry, I second the concerns expressed here. My particular case involves the variety of functional reactive programming libraries and papers out there. After reading Hudak's School of Expression, I first tried to download the code referenced in the book. It was pretty stale but someone did the nice work of making sure Hugs still has a version of the original library that matches the SOE source. Sort of - once I figured out a few key module changes it was no big deal. I've tried to look at other libraries, FRAP and Yampl, but found them both stale and hard to figure out how to install. The Haskell community might take a page from the Ruby book here and look at the Ruby Gems package distribution system. It makes install new ruby libraries and applications as simple as a single command. For example, to install rails you just type: gem install rails And all the source for the latest released Ruby on Rails is downloaded and installed on your machine, ready to use. Haskell's compiled nature might make that a bit more difficult but its still pretty awesome and definiltey the preferred way of getting libraries out in Ruby community. If you don't believe me, search the google group comp.lang.ruby for emails with [ANN] in the header and you'll see most are distributed via gems. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re : [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hi, I don't answer specific previous line of mail but just give my opinion :) As with any non-mainstream or young language, there's some kind of lack of libraries/tools/whatever. With the arrival of Java, people get used to have scores of libraries which are 'right there', just 'part' of the java api. (Just google for any java class-name and 1/ you will find the approriate doc on sun's site and 2/ well, there's no number 2 : the library is already availble on your machine). The problem is the same with other languages. I talk especially of the problem of finding last version of a lib, installing it, finding/reading the doc. But the problem is quite cosmetic. There *are* libs. I don't know Cabal. Maybe such a tool has to enforce or encourage the lib author to package it carefully. Maybe such a tool could be used with a haskell.org-side server app to provide the relevent information to the user and cache the lib if it's author is erased from the map. If the haskell community has the tool, I'm sure every member of the community will use it. (the problem with tool adoption is another point). (I found the idea on the wiki of 'how to start a haskell project' has the same merit.) Well. Don't bother with 'building the community' or 'spread the word'. People on this mailing list have needs which are quite the same than the ones that will make the two 'goals' happen. Or in other words : I see a lot of thread about 'building ...' and 'spread ..' but the fact is : the community is building up itself and does it quite right. Ciao, mt ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 09:21:52AM -0800, Jason Dagit wrote: On 12/15/06, Tomasz Zielonka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Haskell web server that Simon Peyton-Jones et al described in their paper would be a great example. But where's the download? Let me stress this: HWS is an *exception*. It's the only Haskell related thing that I had trouble to find. This is the only thing I disagree with in your post. Well, something told me there is something wrong in my statement, but in a hurry I chose not to listen ;-) Of course you are right, at least in the sense that this matter is very subjective, so I can't answer for all the people. OK, so HWS is not the only case, but this was a striking one - when I wanted it, I searched for a long time and the only thing I found was a hws-wp patch to the original sources. Unfortunately, I couldn't recreate full sources from it :-) Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
This is sort of a tangent... One of the things I notice happens a lot on the lists is that it is very difficult to answer questions without knowing the background of the person asking it. Haskell is a 'multi-level' language in a lot of ways, there is the nice friendly veneer described in the report, but a lot of that functionality exposed to the user is implemented in haskell itself using unsafe operations and interesting and useful implementation specific tricks, but that are probably not what someone learning the language is looking for. So, the most basic question, perhaps one of the first things someone exploring the language asks: How do I turn an IO String into a String? gets several different replys which can be quite intimidating for someone expecting a simple answer unsafePerformIO but don't use it! Haskell Performs IO using Monads, a mathematical construct taken from category theory You need to put your call to getContents in a 'do' block perhaps you should be using Arrows (okay, perhaps this one doesn't come up so much) now, for a newbie, picking out choice number 3 may or may not be obvious, but it certainly can be a very intimidating barrage of replies. I think we need some sort of signal, to show that one means I understand why haskell doesn't allow this in general, but am interested in a compiler specific trick or some theoretical background on the issue rather than I am learning haskell and am somewhat confused due to preconcieved notions fostered by my experience with other languages, can someone help me? Perhaps we as a community need to avoid the urge (it is hard to resist) to give esoteric answers unless specifically asked for and veterans will have to try not to be too offended if someone mistakes their obscure implementation question for a confused beginning one on occasion. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
The core of the 'Blub Paradox'. There is almost no upside for a manager to approve an 'unusual' language for a project. Most technology changes are driven by engineers, and most engineers are by nature risk averse, even though they also tend to be neophiles. So, on a given project, they'll try one, maybe two new things, but ones they think have a high chance of sucess. Smart managers let these bets be made, because a technology advantage is often a force multiplier. Now, engineers have to decide where to spend their intellectual capital and the markers they can call in from management. Haskell seems to be a good place to spend intellectual capital. There certainly seems to be some growing consensus that functional programming approaches are the next 'big thing'. Multicore and true concurrency seem to demand a new approach. The question in my mind is, is Haskell the Smalltalk of the '10s or the Java? Either way, I already believe that it's worthwhile learning. As to libraries, they seem to be the natural result of engineers learning new languages. And because of the internet and open source, you get a positive feedback cycle. The Jakarta project is the best recent example. Almost overnight, java became the defacto serverside language. A niche almost opposite where the language was being pitched. So what can Haskell do better enough that the feedback cycle can be jumpstarted? On 12/15/06, Joachim Durchholz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tomasz Zielonka schrieb: On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 09:56:57PM +0100, Joachim Durchholz wrote: OK, there's the option of replacing working tools with hype. It worked for C++, and it worked for Java. Pity I don't have the slightest idea how to work up a hype for Haskell. Who would want such a hype? Why not simply start picking up fruits before the mainstream notices? ;-) Because a mainstream language has more tools, more libraries, and an easier job search. Regards, Jo ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, John Meacham wrote: One of the things I notice happens a lot on the lists is that it is very difficult to answer questions without knowing the background of the person asking it. snip Perhaps we as a community need to avoid the urge (it is hard to resist) to give esoteric answers unless specifically asked for and veterans will have to try not to be too offended if someone mistakes their obscure implementation question for a confused beginning one on occasion. I have to admit I've more than once had to supress the urge to PM something like STFU to someone in #haskell while I'm explaining something to a newbie because they're all unsafePerformIO and arrows and other confusing stuff. It's even worse when answering questions like doesn't the IO monad make the language impure still?, although that's not such a problem in email because at least I can get through my own explanation without interruption. It's worth noting that sometimes the obscure question's theory-related rather than implementation. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire. Most of the time you just get burnt worse though. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Yes! You are right commercials benefits from academics; NO DOUBT! No one will discuss anything against that because that's obvious where is the source. But It is not obvious where is the destination. Maybe new-comers need to be more Haskellized first. But that's not the problem. In this thread many good libraries has been named for : XML, GUI, OpenGL, WEB, etc. Yet this can not be named mature. As a research foundation point of view Haskell is perfect. Again no doubt about It. But this feature-full dude (Haskell) makes it's way in different directions without harmony. For example some of the projects are dead for about 3-4 years (especially c-interfaces). So this libraries are living and growing in separate islands lonely! And this can not be a plateform for development. And about being over-demanding : Maybe this is true. But why Haskell is over-demanding? Because It is attracting! That's a point of power and a big plus (If it gets to be seen!). Best Regards ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
I have been keeping up with this thread. As a user of Haskell for comercial purposes, I can say that it does what I want. The only thing currently on my wish-list is some sort of run time debuging. (sometimes you want to know how you got to the empty list that you took the head of :) Anyhow, I find haskell more than adequete for my programming. I say this to set up my next statement. I really don't want there to be huge accretions to the language proper. I understand lisp has had a rough go because there wasn't enough standardisation of libraries, but on the other hand, I think languages like Java went overboard. My point, I guess, is that I find haskell to be easy and efficient to develop applications with. It is quite practical. Also, the academic research that goes in to Haskell continues to make it more practical. I, for one, do not want the spirit of Haskell to change just to make it how people think it would be useful in the comercial world. It's current spirit makes it very useful and rewarding. Now, haskell isn't the right tool for every job. I still use languages such as Perl, C, and Java. All I can say is any tool that tries to do everything will excel at none of them. If your particular problem is a good match for Haskell, please do use it. If it is not, then find a language that fits your problem better. I apologise for the rambling, but it is 3am here and I should be in bed ;) I suppose I've rambled enough -mdg On 12/13/06, Kaveh Shahbazian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is going out of the way. Excuse me, but the main discussion was not about pascal! And thanks again to all. Now I think there is a bigger whole between current situation of Haskell and using It as a real tool, than what I thought before. But any way; I still have a hope for rising a new folk of thinkers in software world that will put ideas to work more practically. Haskell got academic-centric-being syndrome, as JAVA got perfectionism syndrome (see elegant and useless design patterns and architectures there!). I can not imagine a pure and clear vision about this new folk that IT world lakes now. If anyone helps me with clarification of this thing, It will be great to me! Best regards ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Our problems are mostly behind us, now all we have to do is fight the solutions. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 03:03:51AM -0500, Mark Goldman wrote: I have been keeping up with this thread. As a user of Haskell for comercial purposes, I can say that it does what I want. The only thing currently on my wish-list is some sort of run time debuging. (sometimes you want to know how you got to the empty list that you took the head of :) Anyhow, I find haskell more than adequete for my programming. I say this to set up my next statement. I really don't want there to be huge accretions to the language proper. I understand lisp has had a rough go because there wasn't enough standardisation of libraries, but on the other hand, I think languages like Java went overboard. My point, I guess, is that I find haskell to be easy and efficient to develop applications with. It is quite practical. Also, the academic research that goes in to Haskell continues to make it more practical. I, for one, do not want the spirit of Haskell to change just to make it how people think it would be useful in the comercial world. It's current spirit makes it very useful and rewarding. Seconded! I especially agree on the following points: - Haskell is useful for practical, commercial purposes NOW - Commercial development gets substantial benefits from academic research and the academic flavour of Haskell. If you want a less academic language, there are so many to choose from. Personally, I am sometimes a bit distressed by all those big demands articulated by newcomers to Haskell world, perhaps because most of the time these are things completely unneccesary for me (a non-academic programmer). Please have the humility to take some time to learn Haskell more, and then *maybe* you will appreciate the way some things are done. Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
I think this is going out of the way. Excuse me, but the main discussion was not about pascal! And thanks again to all. Now I think there is a bigger whole between current situation of Haskell and using It as a real tool, than what I thought before. But any way; I still have a hope for rising a new folk of thinkers in software world that will put ideas to work more practically. Haskell got academic-centric-being syndrome, as JAVA got perfectionism syndrome (see elegant and useless design patterns and architectures there!). I can not imagine a pure and clear vision about this new folk that IT world lakes now. If anyone helps me with clarification of this thing, It will be great to me! Best regards ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/13/06, Kaveh Shahbazian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is going out of the way. Excuse me, but the main discussion was not about pascal! This list is exactly for off-topic discussions :-) And thanks again to all. Now I think there is a bigger whole between current situation of Haskell and using It as a real tool, than what I thought before. But any way; I still have a hope for rising a new folk of thinkers in software world that will put ideas to work more practically. Haskell got academic-centric-being syndrome, as JAVA got perfectionism syndrome (see elegant and useless design patterns and architectures there!). I can not imagine a pure and clear vision about this new folk that IT world lakes now. If anyone helps me with clarification of this thing, It will be great to me! The reason why Haskell is academic-centric is that it was originally conceived by academics, and they were interested in doing research into language design and implementation and also had jobs to take care of and all of this doesn't leave much time for being a language evangelist or for figuring out what the practical issues might be (not to mention sleeping at night). People outside academia who might be inclined to take on some of those more practical questions are just beginning to notice that Haskell could be useful for them too. The reason this didn't happen earlier was that there was no marketing budget. It had to happen in a grassroots fashion, and IMO it couldn't have happened until after the rise of distributed open-source development (which, I remind you, didn't start gaining a lot of momentum until not that long ago). You could become one of those new folk of thinkers. Be the change you wish to see. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt They say the world is just a stage you're on...or going through. --Jim Infantino ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hello Kirsten, Tuesday, December 12, 2006, 4:28:18 PM, you wrote: Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think we should rename the language altogether. Curry would have avoided this problem. we can also rename Pascal to Blez to avoid confusion -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Bulat Ziganshin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: one particular thing that we still lack is something like book Haskell in real world How about: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Applications-Functional-Programming-Colin-Runciman/dp/1857283775/sr=1-16/qid=1166024994/ref=sr_1_16/202-8679714-4706263?ie=UTF8s=books Applications of Functional Programming (Hardcover) by Colin Runciman (Editor), David Wakeling (Editor) Routledge, 1995. Synopsis This book is unique in showcasing real non-trivial applications of functional programming using the Haskell language. It presents state-of-the-art work from the FLARE project and will be an invaluable resource for advanced study, research and implementation. The applications covered in the book range from workforce management and graphical design to computational fluid dynamics. Regards, Malcolm ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
The reason why Haskell is academic-centric is that it was originally conceived by academics, and they were interested in doing research into language design and implementation .. shouldn't we make this used to be academic-centric? People outside academia who might be inclined to take on some of those more practical questions are just beginning to notice that Haskell could be useful for them too. .. although just beginning to notice may be accurate on a historical scale, I have the feeling that the actual development is further along than this. at least, there have been sufficiently many and active early adopters for long enough to make a substantial difference. so those practical questions are not being raised, but several of them are actually being addressed. It had to happen in a grassroots fashion, and IMO it couldn't have happened until after the rise of distributed open-source development (which, I remind you, didn't start gaining a lot of momentum until not that long ago). one of the most exciting aspects of Haskell is that pragmatic interest in the language has been growing steadily without academic interest in it declining in any way. as a result, we have a language that represents an interesting mixture of good and useful, although it is not entirely clear yet how long this nice balance will hold. we have had lots of languages that were intended to be well-designed (good, beautiful, ..), but never much used in practice, and we have also had lots of languages that were intended to be pragmatic (practical, useful, ..), without much interest in theoretical beauty. but how many languages are there where the two aspects have converged, with both communities still actively interested in the result? claus ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hallo, On 12/13/06, Claus Reinke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we have had lots of languages that were intended to be well-designed (good, beautiful, ..), but never much used in practice, and we have also had lots of languages that were intended to be pragmatic (practical, useful, ..), without much interest in theoretical beauty. but how many languages are there where the two aspects have converged, with both communities still actively interested in the result? Lua is a small scripting language created in academia, whose authors are academics, that has reached the industry embedded in several well-known products such as World of Warcraft or Adobe Lightroom (which is 40% Lua). Frequently people ask for bloat in the mailing list, and the usual answer is why?. The authors claim that when thinking about a new version of Lua they don't think of features to add, but what features they can remove. So I'd say it's perfectly possible to have an academia-backed language useful for the real world. Cheers, -- -alex http://www.ventonegro.org/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/13/06, Claus Reinke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason why Haskell is academic-centric is that it was originally conceived by academics, and they were interested in doing research into language design and implementation .. shouldn't we make this used to be academic-centric? I think that's still slightly premature, although it seems like a ton of progress has been made just this year. People outside academia who might be inclined to take on some of those more practical questions are just beginning to notice that Haskell could be useful for them too. .. although just beginning to notice may be accurate on a historical scale, I have the feeling that the actual development is further along than this. at least, there have been sufficiently many and active early adopters for long enough to make a substantial difference. so those practical questions are not being raised, but several of them are actually being addressed. Certainly, and not to in any way denigrate the early adopters' work (and I am, I guess, an early adopter, though not one who's actually contributed much). I guess I was just trying to say to the poster I was replying to that if you're still not happy with the level of practicality of Haskell tools now, either jump in and help improve them yourself, or if you don't want to do that, have a little patience -- they'll get there soon enough. one of the most exciting aspects of Haskell is that pragmatic interest in the language has been growing steadily without academic interest in it declining in any way. as a result, we have a language that represents an interesting mixture of good and useful, although it is not entirely clear yet how long this nice balance will hold. we have had lots of languages that were intended to be well-designed (good, beautiful, ..), but never much used in practice, and we have also had lots of languages that were intended to be pragmatic (practical, useful, ..), without much interest in theoretical beauty. but how many languages are there where the two aspects have converged, with both communities still actively interested in the result? I'm interested to see what's going to happen, too. To answer your question with another, how many languages are there that have quite the same kind of people committed to them that Haskell does? :-) Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt Happy is all in your head / When you wake up and you're not dead / It's a sign of maturation / That you've lowered your expectations...--Barbara Kessler ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hello Alex, Wednesday, December 13, 2006, 8:01:07 PM, you wrote: mailing list, and the usual answer is why?. The authors claim that when thinking about a new version of Lua they don't think of features to add, but what features they can remove. Newspeak is the only language that is decreases, instead of increases, during the time - Orwell, 1984. so, Lua is second one :) -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hello Malcolm, Wednesday, December 13, 2006, 6:53:56 PM, you wrote: one particular thing that we still lack is something like book Haskell in real world How about: Applications of Functional Programming (Hardcover) by Colin Runciman (Editor), David Wakeling (Editor) Routledge, 1995. unfortunately, it's hard for me to buy on amazon. anyway, i think that Haskell significantly changed during these 10 years and while this book may provide overall picture of how functional languages can be used to develop programs, actual details are far from current state-of-the-art i think that it's also possible to use any other FP-oriented book about commercial applications for functional programming, especially for ML-family of languages, while for details relevant to current Haskell the only good source is awkward squad. so we are still in the situation when there is no books that describes how to use modern Haskell tools to develop these real programs -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
well, if Sun hadn't have released a version of smalltalk with a funny c like syntax, you might have seen some interesting developments in the mid 90's On 12/13/06, Claus Reinke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason why Haskell is academic-centric is that it was originally conceived by academics, and they were interested in doing research into language design and implementation .. shouldn't we make this used to be academic-centric? People outside academia who might be inclined to take on some of those more practical questions are just beginning to notice that Haskell could be useful for them too. .. although just beginning to notice may be accurate on a historical scale, I have the feeling that the actual development is further along than this. at least, there have been sufficiently many and active early adopters for long enough to make a substantial difference. so those practical questions are not being raised, but several of them are actually being addressed. It had to happen in a grassroots fashion, and IMO it couldn't have happened until after the rise of distributed open-source development (which, I remind you, didn't start gaining a lot of momentum until not that long ago). one of the most exciting aspects of Haskell is that pragmatic interest in the language has been growing steadily without academic interest in it declining in any way. as a result, we have a language that represents an interesting mixture of good and useful, although it is not entirely clear yet how long this nice balance will hold. we have had lots of languages that were intended to be well-designed (good, beautiful, ..), but never much used in practice, and we have also had lots of languages that were intended to be pragmatic (practical, useful, ..), without much interest in theoretical beauty. but how many languages are there where the two aspects have converged, with both communities still actively interested in the result? claus ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
well, if Sun hadn't have released a version of smalltalk with a funny c like syntax, you might have seen some interesting developments in the mid 90's yes, perhaps. but now that funny smalltalk is open source, the self team has been released from indenture (after Scheme and Self people, Sun is known to have hired at least one Haskeller;-), and the strongtalk vm is open source. I'm still a fan of the old ideas in that community, although I no longer expect much from that language itself (it still has features that are fundamentally lacking in Haskell, but Haskell has at least as many features that are fundamentally lacking in Squeak, say; and I tend to the conclusion that it would be easier to start from the Haskell side if one wanted the best of both worlds). but the people who were behind smalltalk are still up to wonderful stuff, just off the mainstream (for instance, anyone interested in one possible future wrt to user interfaces ought to read some of the papers on the croquet project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project ; and don't let yourself be fooled by the screenshots - there is much more thought behind that than behind the run-of-the-mill virtual 3d distributed reflective live-programmable multi-user collaborative environment:). but I wasn't saying that there are no other languages with similar convergence effects. I was suggesting that there are few, very few such languages, especially considering the flood of languages in both the academic and the pragmatic camps. being a member of these illustrous few, Haskell has become a conduit for exchange of ideas and problems between the two camps, giving it a distinct advantage over most of its contemporaries. and while it may be true that the effects have only become widely noticable not too long ago, the development has been going on for a long time (one example: Conal Elliot's ideas for Fran had pragmatic needs that used to drive new developments in Hugs/ GHC many years ago). and from watching the development over many years, I have the feeling that the curve is exponential (but perhaps I'm just channelling Kurzweil;-). so even if we are still near the beginning of that curve, perhaps, in the not too distant future, when some group of clever folks starts a project as interesting as Croquet, they'll use Haskell rather than Squeak? for me, the aim of Haskell is to be an enabler for such developments, in both academia and industry, and especially where the two come together. but let's wait and see, shall we?-) Claus ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Thanks again.
Look all. When I (and I think everybody here) make a discussion about
Haskell, It is not about to dominating anyone('s opinions) or attacking to
Haskell (for Haskell evangelists!); Haskell is great enough that surely will
lead - if not be - the next picture for meaning of SOFTWARE DEVELOPING.
I did not know anything about functional programming. I have a B.S. in
telecommunications and ... as you know one day I woke up in bed lying beside
my beloved codes! And there I became a programmer! Then I came across with
scripting : Ruby! Lovely! Fantastic! At first It was very hard for my
c-writer mind to even understand what this scripting thing is. But at
last I felt It and learned how to do It.
And with more reading, suddenly there was something totally different :
Functional Programming.
See : Reduced of many many type of bugs in your code; why? No side effect!
Debugging! Profiling! Type safety!
So why I say that?
Again see : In less than five years we will have processors with normally
six cores or more and fast hardware - very cheap. Hold that.
So you still want to pay your developers for checking NULL values,
correctness of INTERFACES, writing IF ELSE and SELECT CASEs full of
side effect and junks (Something that can be simply implemented by Pattern
Matching), continuing OO world that has not even a accurate calculus for
describing things (and came from industrial engineering), code that may
crash through exceptions and very stupid-complex execution paths, checking
array out-of rang things, handling and passing and dereferencing pointers
correctly...H! Just calculate that how % of developer's time
is being consumed by this stupid tasks? You know; this will be a big-bang
for commercials! (If their stupid consultants can understand).
I am a usual developer, not smart and academic as you, and not as stupid
ones to pretend to know something better than all. Even this kind of
programming still is very hard for me. I am still struggling with monads and
monad transformers! So I am choosing the hard path - even very hard one.
Why? Because I am sure every mean developer like me can be productive in
functional programming in 6 to 12 months. And imagine that huge bunch of
stupid things that we are handling everyday : Just wast of life and money
without any joy and honor.
This is my vision : FIVE YEARS ...
Best Regards
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Kaveh Shahbazian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you still want to pay your developers for checking NULL values, correctness of INTERFACES, writing IF ELSE and SELECT CASEs full of side effect and junks (Something that can be simply implemented by Pattern Matching), continuing OO world that has not even a accurate calculus for describing things (and came from industrial engineering), code that may crash through exceptions and very stupid-complex execution paths, checking array out-of rang things, handling and passing and dereferencing pointers correctly...H! Just calculate that how % of developer's time is being consumed by this stupid tasks? You know; this will be a big-bang for commercials! (If their stupid consultants can understand). Yes. It's always hard to convince people that they've been doing something the wrong way, though. People includes smart academic types, sometimes, too. I think you're absolutely right, but if you have ideas for what to say in those commercials, you can post them here :-) And of course it's not quite as simple as people have been doing it the wrong way, because sometimes there are reasons even for the kinds of code that look the most horrible on the surface. Functional programming people have a reputation for arrogance -- whether that impression is fair or not and whether that arrogance is merited or not, the impression exists, and some people find it a turn-off. Avoid being the overenthusiastic convert. I am a usual developer, not smart and academic as you, and not as stupid ones to pretend to know something better than all. Even this kind of programming still is very hard for me. I am still struggling with monads and monad transformers! So I am choosing the hard path - even very hard one. Why? Because I am sure every mean developer like me can be productive in functional programming in 6 to 12 months. And imagine that huge bunch of stupid things that we are handling everyday : Just wast of life and money without any joy and honor. This is my vision : FIVE YEARS ... I hope so! And I think if you got to know at least *some* of the smart and academic types, you would find that they struggle sometimes too. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt What is research but a blind date with knowledge? -- Will Henry ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 10:58:18AM +, Kirsten Chevalier wrote: Functional programming people have a reputation for arrogance -- whether that impression is fair or not and whether that arrogance is merited or not, the impression exists, and some people find it a turn-off. Aren't you talking about the LISP community? ;-) Best regards Tomasz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Tomasz Zielonka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 10:58:18AM +, Kirsten Chevalier wrote: Functional programming people have a reputation for arrogance -- whether that impression is fair or not and whether that arrogance is merited or not, the impression exists, and some people find it a turn-off. Aren't you talking about the LISP community? ;-) That's exactly the problem! For most people there *is* no difference. You say functional programming to most people, even professional programmers, and usually the only chance you have of getting them to understand what what you mean is by asking so, have you heard of Lisp, or Scheme? Avoiding the question of whether the Lisp community deserves that reputation, *we* need to be sure to avoid acquiring the same. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.--Wernher von Braun ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hi That's exactly the problem! For most people there *is* no difference. You say functional programming to most people, even professional programmers, and usually the only chance you have of getting them to understand what what you mean is by asking so, have you heard of Lisp, or Scheme? Talking to professional programmers, if I tell anyone I program in Haskell they nearly always say oh, Pascal, that's cool. No one knows what functional programming is, Scheme/Lisp are the closest. Maybe we should try and hijack the phrase functional programming - Haskell is just too similar to Pascal. Thanks Neil ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Neil Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haskell is just too similar to Pascal. That statement sounds very wrong to me :-) -- Sebastian Sylvan +46(0)736-818655 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
ndmitchell: Hi That's exactly the problem! For most people there *is* no difference. You say functional programming to most people, even professional programmers, and usually the only chance you have of getting them to understand what what you mean is by asking so, have you heard of Lisp, or Scheme? Talking to professional programmers, if I tell anyone I program in Haskell they nearly always say oh, Pascal, that's cool. No one knows what functional programming is, Scheme/Lisp are the closest. Maybe we should try and hijack the phrase functional programming - Haskell is just too similar to Pascal. Who wants to join the Lisp is not functional programming movement with me? -- Don If it ain't pure, it ain't functional Stewart ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Donald Bruce Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Don If it ain't pure, it ain't functional Stewart flame-bait Oh, so you're saying that we should trademark the phrase functional programming so that no language with uncontrolled side effects would be allowed to use it? /flame-bait -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.--Wernher von Braun ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Brian Hulley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neil Mitchell wrote: Maybe we should try and hijack the phrase functional programming - Haskell is just too similar to Pascal. This reminds me of when I was getting an X-ray a few months ago and I struck up a conversation with the radiologist who turned out to be an ex-computer programmer so he asked what language I was using so I said Haskell and he said something like Oh yeah Pascal I know that... Perhaps we need a tutorial on how to pronounce the word Haskell so that it doesn't sound like Pascal :-) (eg Hiskll) Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think we should rename the language altogether. It seems like people say Haskell with stress on the first syllable if they were either on the committee or learned it inside academia, and Haskell with stress on the second syllable if they learned it from online sources. And we really don't need more pronunciation-based class distinctions. Curry would have avoided this problem. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt It was cold in the house so I slept in my car / And I steamed up the windows, then it started to rain / And I dreamed about sex and I dreamed about peppers / Woke up doing 85 in the passing lane -- Ed's Redeeming Qualities ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hi, Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think we should rename the language altogether. It seems like people say Haskell with stress on the first syllable if they were either on the committee or learned it inside academia, and Haskell with stress on the second syllable if they learned it from online sources. And we really don't need more pronunciation-based class distinctions. If you'd all speak West-Flemish, the problem would solve itself :-) We say Haskul - Has(lle)ul(cer) At least, that what I think the Oxford dictionary means with its pronounciation description. Maybe we can claim it should be 'has kell', where kell is something cool, and no cornflakes. It has kell. -- Andy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Donald Bruce Stewart wrote: Who wants to join the Lisp is not functional programming movement with me? Oh, lordy. As if the Scheme is not Lisp flames on comp.lang.lisp weren't enough... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Andy Georges [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think we should rename the language altogether. It seems like people say Haskell with stress on the first syllable if they were either on the committee or learned it inside academia, and Haskell with stress on the second syllable if they learned it from online sources. And we really don't need more pronunciation-based class distinctions. If you'd all speak West-Flemish, the problem would solve itself :-) Didn't this discussion originally start out as a warning not to say If you'd all speak [or program in] _, the problem would solve itself? :-) Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt What you call 'lying', other people would call 'abstraction'. -- Alex Aiken ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Maybe we can claim it should be 'has kell', where kell is something cool, and no cornflakes. It has kell. if there was an implementation of Haskell on Cell processors, it could be has cell.. I wonder if knowing what people are going to do with your name is sufficient to put students off becoming a mathematician ;-) but on the Pascal note: is there anything in Pascal that Haskell doesn't provide, and improves on (nested procedures, procedure parameters, distinguishing in and out parameters, types, ..)? it has been too long since my Pascal days, I don't remember.. apart from the communication problem of understanding Haskell as Pascal: if you're talking to someone who knows Pascal, it might not be a bad idea to position Haskell as a drastically modernized version of Pascal, to get the discussion of real merits going? claus -- Trac ticket #-42: subject: when trying to bootstrap GHC on the PS3, configure complains can't find hardware? status - closed (no bug) comment: it is a _next_ generation console! ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Claus Reinke wrote: but on the Pascal note: is there anything in Pascal that Haskell doesn't provide, and improves on (nested procedures, procedure parameters, distinguishing in and out parameters, types, ..)? Subrange types, maybe? But I'm sure Oleg will show us that Haskell already has them. :-) - Andreas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Andreas Rossberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Claus Reinke wrote: but on the Pascal note: is there anything in Pascal that Haskell doesn't provide, and improves on (nested procedures, procedure parameters, distinguishing in and out parameters, types, ..)? Subrange types, maybe? But I'm sure Oleg will show us that Haskell already has them. :-) Maybe the real question should be: is there anything in Pascal that Haskell's type system doesn't provide? Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt Other than to amuse himself, why should a man pretend to know where he's going or to understand what he sees? -- William Least Heat Moon ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/12/06, Claus Reinke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe we can claim it should be 'has kell', where kell is something cool, and no cornflakes. It has kell. if there was an implementation of Haskell on Cell processors, it could be has cell.. Pronounced hassle? :-) -- Sebastian Sylvan +46(0)736-818655 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
(Even clean has a simple GUI. Is it that hard to provide a simple GUI like that to be installed by default?) Why not provide two, that can be installed? Gtk2Hs and wxHaskell. You can bundle them by default, or download them, the difference is minimal. In my humble opinion, in this context, GUI doesn't mean a library to implement a GUI application. It rather means an interpreter/compiler that provides graphical interface. Kaveh Shahbazian is a little bit wrong since there are some implementation with graphic interface like Hugs. But since Hugs is not a compiler but an interpreter, ones who are to develop a real world application will hardly choose it. Unless we are making in some specific fields e.g. a web application, we would often need to get a compiled executable one. In this point of view, there is no Haskell implementation with GUI environment for real world application development yet. This may not matter a lot since we've got some alternatives like Haskell in Eclipse, Haskell in Emacs, Visual Haskell, etc. But anyway I want some GUI built in GHC/GHCi too. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hello Nia, Monday, December 11, 2006, 1:43:51 PM, you wrote: since there are some implementation with graphic interface like Hugs. But since Hugs is not a compiler but an interpreter, ones who are to develop a real world application will hardly choose it. i disagree. Hugs is very compatible with GHC and there is no problem to develop program in Hugs and then compile it in GHC. the only thing that i missed in WinHugs is preprocessor to hide slight differences between hugs and ghc also Neil works on WinHaskell environment which afaik will support both hugs and ghc, and may be even works on Unixes too (Neil, can you please say more specific and/or open wiki page describing this project?) -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hi Bulat. Ones who can handle and compile with GHC won't feel anything absurd working with a console, CLI environment. They won't regard the lack of GUI as a problem. But Kaveh does. It doesn't make sense that there would be anyone who first develop in Hugs(deliberately not GHCi since it has no GUI) and then compile it with GHC(which is far away from GUI, yet). People who will (finally) compile their program in GHC would simply choose GHCi over Hugs. Or else, is there any merit of Hugs that GHCi doesn't have? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/11/06, Nia Rium [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my humble opinion, in this context, GUI doesn't mean a library to implement a GUI application. It rather means an interpreter/compiler that provides graphical interface. Windows users can use Visual Haskell... -- Taral [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can't prove anything. -- Gödel's Incompetence Theorem ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
On 12/11/06, Philippa Cowderoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Only those who already have Visual Studio, no? Yes, that is an unfortunate limitation. -- Taral [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can't prove anything. -- Gödel's Incompetence Theorem ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Taral wrote: On 12/11/06, Nia Rium [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my humble opinion, in this context, GUI doesn't mean a library to implement a GUI application. It rather means an interpreter/compiler that provides graphical interface. Windows users can use Visual Haskell... It's still in an early development phase. - Lyle ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Aim Of Haskell
Hi, one particular thing that we still lack is something like book Haskell in real world We need a 'Dive into Haskell' book. -- Andy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
