Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

You're showing which part of the group you originated in, Graham. :-) Cheers, Martin Martin Packer, zChampion, Principal Systems Investigator, Worldwide Cloud & Systems Performance, IBM +44-7802-245-584 email: martin_pac...@uk.ibm.com Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker Blog:

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

W dniu 2016-02-05 o 21:00, Elardus Engelbrecht pisze: Lester, Bob wrote: Commodore 64 anyone? :-) Spectrum 48k, Commodore 64, Atari 64XE, Atari 800XL The best machine was Amstrad CPC 6128 and I would challenge everyone who do not agree. Swords, sabres, joysticks - what you

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 12:00:47 -0800, Tom Brennan wrote: > >I'm currently trying to write up some notes for some (possible) new >mainframers who already know unix, and this is one of my comparisons: > >Unix Style: > >cat /etc/passwd | grep ^ted013: | awk -F':' '{print $3}' >... >JCL Style: >

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Yep - I'm hoping they'll like the batch facilities in MVS which in my opinion are far beyond unix. This might be a spot where a history lesson is needed, but I wasn't around in the early days: From what I've read, MVS started with nothing but batch jobs and later grew into online systems.

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Tom Brennan wrote > > cron tasks will be a problem I think, since a non-priviledged user can > setup their own private "autocommands" on unix. Not so on the mainframe. > But from what I've seen, unix people tend to want cron tasks because they > are polling for data, which needs to be

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

t...@tombrennansoftware.com (Tom Brennan) writes: > Yep - I'm hoping they'll like the batch facilities in MVS which in my > opinion are far beyond unix. This might be a spot where a history > lesson is needed, but I wasn't around in the early days: > > From what I've read, MVS started with

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

harris...@gmail.com (Graham Harris) writes: > Doesn't deadline scheduling count? as undergraduate in the 60s, I did dynamic adaptive resource management that was picked up and shipped in CP/67 (customers periodically referred to as fairshare scheduler or wheeler scheduler because default policy

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Yeah - times have changed ... I remember back then when folks said I had a hot baud too ... :( Chris Hoelscher Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services Technology Solution Services : humana.com 123 East Main Street Louisville, KY 40202 Humana.com (502) 714-8615, (502) 476-2538 >

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:57:17 -0500, Gregg wrote: >Did it require a Hayes (compatible) MODEM? It isn't a modem command, but a command to the telephone company. Something like dialing *70 before dialing the number. -- Tom Marchant >On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Ed Gould

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Did it require a Hayes (compatible) MODEM? On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Ed Gould wrote: > Yes/NO > There was a command that at dial time would stop call waiting, its been > years (sorry). > > Ed > > > On Feb 6, 2016, at 9:49 AM, Chris Hoelscher wrote: > > Linda -

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Linda - did you have call waiting? If you forgot to disable it before "hooking up" that little click/beep indicator of an incoming call would throw me offline (Apple ][+) Chris Hoelscher Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services Technology Solution Services : humana.com 123 East

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On 2016-02-06, at 08:49, Chris Hoelscher wrote: > Linda - did you have call waiting? If you forgot to disable it before > "hooking up" that little click/beep indicator of an incoming call would throw > me offline (Apple ][+) > Similarly irritating, later I had a modem (RJ11, not acoustical)

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Yes/NO There was a command that at dial time would stop call waiting, its been years (sorry). Ed On Feb 6, 2016, at 9:49 AM, Chris Hoelscher wrote: Linda - did you have call waiting? If you forgot to disable it before "hooking up" that little click/beep indicator of an incoming call

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Hi Chris, No call waiting. My Apple had its own phone. I spent lots of time logged in to the Univac at school coding and reading listings, first at 110 baud, later at 300 baud. Linda Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 6, 2016, at 7:49 AM, Chris Hoelscher wrote: > > Linda

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Feb 6, 2016, at 5:57 PM, Gregg wrote: Did it require a Hayes (compatible) MODEM? Sorry that is before my time:) Ed On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Ed Gould wrote: Yes/NO There was a command that at dial time would stop call waiting, its been years

IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

"The IBM 5150 didn't officially launch in the UK until January 1983. One reason given for this was the company's lack of expertise in managing the complex dealer and distributor network in Europe which, unlike the far-more-homogenous US where IBM had its own retail network and the

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

linda.lst...@comcast.net (Linda) writes: > I had an Apple ][ with an acoustic coupler. It auto dialed over a > regular telco dial tone line using a program loaded from a cassette > player, or if one could afford it, from an early floppy drive. The > college I went to had a Univac 90/70d. The were

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

I used cat/grep/awk because I saw it used so often by people in the unix/linux team I used to work with. Maybe it was just a quirk of that group, or like our JCL where once someone codes it everyone else copies it. Bill Woodger wrote: Tom, I think if you use that cat to grep to awk as an

IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

I like using lines, I like to be able to read the code. SORT FIELDS=COPY OMIT COND=(1,80,SS,EQ,C'ted03') INREC PARSE=(%=(ENDBEFR=BLANKS, FIXLEN=30, STARTAT=NONBLANK, STARTAFT=BLANKS), %=(ENDBEFR=BLANKS,

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 06:43:59 -0600, Bill Woodger wrote: >the original "IBM PC-type" (although pre-dating the IBM PC) operating system >from Microsoft. There was no operating system from Microsoft that predated the IBM PC. -- Tom Marchant

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

CP/M 86 was available but IBM couldn't get a license. They hired Microsoft to write DOS and they bought QDOS to get started. On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Bill Woodger wrote: > Well, two things: Yes there were, and with several names, and I'd now only > say possibly

IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Well, two things: Yes there were, and with several names, and I'd now only say possibly MS-DOS. Although MS-DOS possibly/probably wouldn't have existed without IBM; the much later appearance of the IBM PC in the UK than in the US also influenced my typing, as there were any number of

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 11:53:00 -0600, John McKown wrote: >On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Tom Marchant < >000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 06:43:59 -0600, Bill Woodger wrote: >> >> >the original "IBM PC-type" (although pre-dating the IBM PC) operating

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Tom Marchant < 000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 11:53:00 -0600, John McKown wrote: > > >On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Tom Marchant < > >000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Lester, Bob wrote: > Hi John, > > Commodore 64 anyone? :-) > > Do you know what OS it ran? > ​Some variant of Microsoft BASIC, in ROM.​ > > Was the HW an x86? Motorola? Apple? > ​Motorola 8 bit​ 6510 CPU. Apple ][ was

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Tom Marchant < 000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 06:43:59 -0600, Bill Woodger wrote: > > >the original "IBM PC-type" (although pre-dating the IBM PC) operating > system from Microsoft. > > There was no operating system

IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

awk can do everything itself. grep can take a (single) file as input. No *nix-person is going to do cat of one file into grep and then into awk. cat of two files would be good, (concatenation in the JCL) and that would be fine input for grep, but then head, or tail, or something else like that.

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Bill Woodger wrote: > awk can do everything itself. grep can take a (single) file as input. No > *nix-person is going to do cat of one file into grep and then into awk. cat > of two files would be good, (concatenation in the JCL) and that

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Mike Schwab wrote: > CP/M 86 was available but IBM couldn't get a license. They hired > Microsoft to write DOS and they bought QDOS to get started. > > ​Yeah. Worst mistake Gary Kindall ever made. Just think, if he'd hadn't "blown off"

Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Hi John, Commodore 64 anyone? :-) Do you know what OS it ran? Was the HW an x86? Motorola? Apple? I had a buddy (years ago, of course), that did strange and wonderful (at the time) things with several of them connected together. No cases, wires everywhere, but

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

You may find this of interest. Fred Brooks talks about JCL. I couldn't find the original online, but I probably could if I tried harder. http://lilliana.eu/downloads/jcltalk.txt Cheers, Lindy -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 12:28:13 -0600, John McKown > I stand corrected. But Xenix was not a "PC-type operating system", but a >> port of Unix. >> > >​Ah. Difference in viewpoint. My machines at home run Linux. I run Gnu/Linux too. What I meant was that Xenix was not like MS-DOS. And the post that I

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 19:02:30 +, Lester, Bob wrote: >Commodore 64 anyone? :-) >Do you know what OS it ran? >Was the HW an x86? Motorola? Apple? No. No, and no. The C-64 used an MOS Technology 6510. It was essentially the same processor as the 6502 used in the Apple II and Atari 400

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

I found it here, at about 1:50. http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/mainframe-computers/7/162/2270 -Lindy -Original Message- From: Lindy Mayfield Sent: perjantaina 5. helmikuuta 2016 20.44 To: 'IBM Mainframe Discussion List' Subject: RE: IBM Destination

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

bles...@ofiglobal.com (Lester, Bob) writes: > ​Yeah. Worst mistake Gary Kindall ever made. Just think, if he'd hadn't > "blown off" IBM, I'd be cursing his memory (he's deceased) instead of > Bill Gates. Or maybe not, I ran CP/M-80 back in the day. I really > enjoyed it. But, then, I enjoyed

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Lester, Bob wrote: > Commodore 64 anyone? :-) I owned one then - with speed of 1.0?? MHz. Played games, learned myself Assembler, prolog, basic (slow and yucky!), logo (?spelling? that turtle thing language - actually a vector based drawing program). There were a lots of new

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On 02/05/2016 11:56 AM, Bill Woodger wrote: > Well, two things: Yes there were, and with several names, and I'd now only > say possibly MS-DOS. Although MS-DOS possibly/probably wouldn't have existed > without IBM; the much later appearance of the IBM PC in the UK than in the US > also

IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Thursday, 4 February 2016 22:08:31 UTC, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > No, they are not; not even as RAM disk files. A pipe communicates directly > between processes (like "tasks"). A DOS partisan once explained his > misunderstanding of pipes to me that way: > > CAT reads /etc/passwd and

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Bill: There was a product from IBM called PCF and it would let you string out tso commands with a ";" between each command and you could do what you are talking about I just remembered it a 445A . ex: alloc (systut1)da(in.contl) shr;alloc (sysut2) da(out.data) new sp(1 1) trk;alloc

IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Ed, I'm fairly sure Paul was referring to the original "IBM PC-type" (although pre-dating the IBM PC) operating system from Microsoft. This had "pipes" but they weren't really pipes. Instead of passing each piece of output to the next process, so that multiple processes are all active,

IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Tom, I think if you use that cat to grep to awk as an example, you'll get confusion from the students. They'll say "why don't you just do it in awk?" or even reel off an obscure Perl one-liner. Using ls into grep into tail may be more realistic. On Thursday, 4 February 2016 20:00:36 UTC, Tom

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 00:02:37 -0600, Ed Gould wrote: > >-SNIP- >The three jobsteps can be cut down to one if you use the "new" >control cards in sort. >Ask the sort people too show you how. > But does that make a good beginners' introduction to JCL? -- gil

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 00:16:41 -0600, Ed Gould wrote: > >The part I think you are missing is that cat and grep and awk are >system commands and as such are included in UNIX >Z/OS has no real equivalence (unless you are talking OE then that is >a whole separate discussion). > Actually, IEBGENER for

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 03:11:34 -0600, Bill Woodger wrote: > >> ... A DOS partisan once explained his >> misunderstanding of pipes to me that way: >> >> CAT reads /etc/passwd and writes to temporary file TEMP1. >> When CAT terminates, GREP reads TEMP1 and writes TEMP2 >> When GREP

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 04:57:49 -0600, Ed Gould wrote: > >There was a product from IBM called PCF and it would let you string >out tso commands with a ";" between each command and you could do >what you are talking about I just remembered it a 445A . ex: alloc >(systut1)da(in.contl) shr;alloc

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 06:55:25 -0600, Bill Woodger wrote: >Tom, > >I think if you use that cat to grep to awk as an example, you'll get confusion >from the students. They'll say "why don't you just do it in awk?" or even reel >off an obscure Perl one-liner. > Or DFSORT. /* ( but not in one

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 13:19:25 -0600, John McKown wrote: >the grandfather of them all ... >was the Imsai 8080. Not to mention many other CP/M-80 machines, such as >Comemco and Altair 8800. ITYM Cromemco. The IMSAI was a clone of the Altair. If you want to think of one as the "Grandfather", it

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

I had an Apple ][ with an acoustic coupler. It auto dialed over a regular telco dial tone line using a program loaded from a cassette player, or if one could afford it, from an early floppy drive. The college I went to had a Univac 90/70d. The were 4 student dialup numbers. I could get into one

Re: Ancient History (OS's) - was : IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 14:00:29 -0600, Elardus Engelbrecht wrote: >8 bit MOS Technology 6510 with 64KB memory - Loosely based on Motorola AFAIK. Depends on what you mean by "based on". The 6502 was designed by some of the same people who designed the 6800 at Motorola, but it was a rather different

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

You're right I think, and that would be another good analogy. I'm pretty sure stdin and stdout are opened prior to calling the specified program, very much like JCL allocation is done before PGM= gets control. These are the similarities I'm looking for that might help someone move from

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:30:53 -0600, Ed Gould wrote: >On Feb 4, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Tom Brennan wrote: >> >> Unix Style: >> >> cat /etc/passwd | grep ^ted013: | awk -F':' '{print $3}' >> >> JCL Style: >> >> //CAT EXEC PGM=CAT >> //SYSUT1 DD DSN=SYS1.ETC.PASSWD,DISP=SHR >> //SYSUT2 DD

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On 02/04/2016 12:52 PM, Ed Gould wrote: > http://destinationz.org/Mainframe-Solution/Trends/What-the-Heck-Is-JCL-and-Why-Does-It-Look-So-Funny > > > > What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny? > It’s important to give job control language its due respect helping > others > - See more at:

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:03:12 -0600, Joel C. Ewing wrote: > >Except for implementation limits on storage and array sizes, finite >external file space, and practical limitations on execution time, >programming languages like FORTRAN, COBOL, PL/I, Algol, Ada, etc. could >all be used to program a

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Feb 4, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: > > Job Control Language is indeed an artificial > language, but I wouldn't dignify it by calling it a programming > language. When I do staff training on JCL, I describe it as a human interface language. Human-computer

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Feb 4, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Tom Brennan wrote: That's great stuff, and how mainframe methods need to be taught today. College students understand unix and windows, and need to know the (can I say odd?) differences they will see on the mainframe, along with a bit of history. I'm currently

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Feb 4, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: On 02/04/2016 12:52 PM, Ed Gould wrote: http://destinationz.org/Mainframe-Solution/Trends/What-the-Heck-Is- JCL-and-Why-Does-It-Look-So-Funny What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny? It’s important to give job control language its

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

I probably wasn't clear that the 3 step job is just an example to let a unix person relate their data-passing methods to ours. If I put all that in a single step it would kind of defeat the purpose of the example. Ed Gould wrote: The three jobsteps can be cut down to one if you use the "new"

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

I was thinking a little more simpler (maybe). Example: The TSO logon proc or to go to more extremes MSTRJCL or another simpler is the JES2 proclib. Ed On Feb 4, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Tom Brennan wrote: You're right I think, and that would be another good analogy. I'm pretty sure stdin and

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

On Feb 4, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Tom Brennan wrote: That's great stuff, and how mainframe methods need to be taught today. College students understand unix and windows, and need to know the (can I say odd?) differences they will see on the mainframe, along with a bit of history. I'm currently

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Paul, The part I think you are missing is that cat and grep and awk are system commands and as such are included in UNIX Z/OS has no real equivalence (unless you are talking OE then that is a whole separate discussion). Please compare apple to apples. Not your wish list. Ed On Feb 4,

IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

http://destinationz.org/Mainframe-Solution/Trends/What-the-Heck-Is- JCL-and-Why-Does-It-Look-So-Funny What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny? It’s important to give job control language its due respect helping others - See more at:

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

That's great stuff, and how mainframe methods need to be taught today. College students understand unix and windows, and need to know the (can I say odd?) differences they will see on the mainframe, along with a bit of history. I'm currently trying to write up some notes for some (possible)

Re: IBM Destination z - What the Heck Is JCL and Why Does It Look So Funny?

Thankfully, you can do both on z/OS at the same time :-) // EXEC PGM=COZBATCH (A better BPXBATCH) //SYSUT1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=HLQ.MY.DATA //STDOUT DD SYSOUT=* //STDIN DD * # This is just a z/OS UNIX login shell in batch... fromdsn //DD:SYSUT1 | grep ^ted013: | awk -F':' '{print $3}' //