All contracts, whether they be escrow agreements or prenuptial ones,
vary in quality as a function of the talent, experience in a milieu,
and knowledge of the lawyers who draft them.
The enumeration of their possible deficiencies is thus not an argument
for eschewing [escrow] agreements. It is
customers decided that escrow is not worth the hassle?
Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Tony Harminc
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 10:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
On 8 May
Spoken like a ex lawyer.
Ed
On May 11, 2014, at 8:00 AM, John Gilmore wrote:
All contracts, whether they be escrow agreements or prenuptial ones,
vary in quality as a function of the talent, experience in a milieu,
and knowledge of the lawyers who draft them.
The enumeration of their possible
In 536e84dd.8020...@phoenixsoftware.com, on 05/10/2014
at 12:58 PM, Ed Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com said:
FWIW, I don't think the source code for Program Products like
ADRDSSU was available even in the pre-OCO days.
All the program products that I used in those days came with feature
In
CAAJSdji19mcCvm3o54ELWC0Ny9PNvGBWfH6i816b3yu+nmed=a...@mail.gmail.com,
on 05/09/2014
at 06:35 AM, John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com said:
This has been an interesting thread. I rather like the escrow idea.
I like it, but only if both sides have had bankruptcy lawyers verify
that the
On Sat, 10 May 2014 14:01:56 -0400, John Gilmore wrote:
Emphasis does, however, need to be placed on the pronoun 'someone'.
If this code had been available not just to someone but to all of us,
quite rapid progress might well have been made with a problem
perceived to be important to the
] On
Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 10:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
In
CAAJSdji19mcCvm3o54ELWC0Ny9PNvGBWfH6i816b3yu+nmed=a...@mail.gmail.com,
on 05/09/2014
at 06:35 AM, John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com said:
This has been
On Sat, 10 May 2014 15:03:11 -0500, John McKown wrote:
Go Debian!
It installs from source.
Thereby validating it. VM (used to be?) that way.
On Sat, 10 May 2014 22:38:01 -0500, Ed Gould wrote:
I had a few occurrences of looking at code that way. After looking at
a IFCEREP1 module I found a
On Sun, 11 May 2014 00:57:05 -0400, Tony Harminc wrote:
On 10 May 2014 15:58, Ed Jaffe wrote:
FWIW, I don't think the source code for Program Products like ADRDSSU was
available even in the pre-OCO days.
Some IBM Program Products had source code available from the earliest
days. For example,
The only element of novelty in the notion that not all of the lawyers
in the world can foretell . . . is its hyperbole.
Justice Holmes long ago defined the law as an informed guess as to
what the courts will enforce in given circumstances; and this element
of indeterminacy, larger in some areas
On 05/11/2014 11:34 AM, John Gilmore wrote:
The only element of novelty in the notion that not all of the lawyers
in the world can foretell . . . is its hyperbole.
Justice Holmes long ago defined the law as an informed guess as to
what the courts will enforce in given circumstances; and this
On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:11:30 -0500, Joel C. Ewing wrote:
If escrow agreements are yet another area where the law and expensive
lawyers can't be relied on to produce the best common sense outcome,
then perhaps the more apt quote in this context would be the law is an
ass.
Kenneth Arrow
Joel,
As I have tried to make clear, I think not. The law is imperfect like
other institutions, but Dickens was quite wrong. It is not, or not
always, an ass.
In my view at any rate this discussion has exhausted itself in
banalities, as is too often the case here. I will leave it to others
to
In 3833201874748634.wa.ibmmaintpg.com...@listserv.ua.edu, on
05/10/2014
at 06:00 PM, Shane Ginnane ibm-m...@tpg.com.au said:
I do however recall sitting down at a (very old) fiche reader in
the computer room at one time looking through the source for
IEBCOPY. Hard way to read code.
I never
In e129b9e5-6929-4304-b43a-40f2fd3ae...@comcast.net, on 05/10/2014
at 10:38 PM, Ed Gould edgould1...@comcast.net said:
I had a few occurrences of looking at code that way. After looking
at a IFCEREP1 module I found a really bad code sequence (causing
cpu usage to sky rocket when running a
John Gilmore writes:
The enumeration of their possible deficiencies is thus not an argument
for eschewing [escrow] agreements. It is an argument for retaining
the services of able, appropriately experienced lawyers to draft them.
I'd add that even the most experienced lawyers frequently need
On 14May09:0635-0500, John McKown wrote:
Say! Here's a neat sleep-deprived idea: In the above scenario, keep the
offsite repository in the NSA ultra-center in Utah! This would require a
commercial aspect to the NSA. But they're going to intercept and store
the information any way if it is
On 14May10:1036-0400, David L. Craig wrote:
The Chinese would appreciate the one-stop shopping for its ISV
industrial espionage, certainly.
Actually, the Federal government already has such a
facility under DNA.probably. This might be an opportunity
to set up a nasty honeypot with doctored
Working for a Major ISV, I experienced a dispute . A former employee accused
the vendor of stealing his code. He didn't read the fine print in his NDA...any
code developed was the vendors
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
On May 10, 2014, at 10:44 AM, David L. Craig
On 5/9/2014 6:51 PM, CM Poncelet wrote:
So there is a third kind of problem when an ISV cannot fix yet will
not release its code and the ISV has not 'gone bust', because its
source code in escrow cannot then be accessed either.
My worst experience of this kind was the ADRDSSU CONSOLIDATE bug
EJ wrote:
begin extract
I never asked for (and IBM never offered me) a copy of the ADRDSSU
source code and, though I believe myself to be an excellent
diagnostician, in all honesty it's unrealistic to believe I could have
solved this any faster by myself, even if IBM had given me full
access. The
, typically drop support and many sites end up with
nothing
Duffy Nightingale
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of John Gilmore
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 7:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
On 5/10/2014 11:01 AM, John Gilmore wrote:
Emphasis does, however, need to be placed on the pronoun 'someone'.
If this code had been available not just to someone but to all of us,
quite rapid progress might well have been made with a problem
perceived to be important to the community.
Of John Gilmore
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 7:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
Radoslaw Skorupka is right to emphasize that an escrow agreement is not a
panacea.
Such an agreement may be all but useless, but an able lawyer who
understands the software
At 07:18 +0100 on 05/10/2014, CM Poncelet wrote about Re: Vendor Source Code:
No, the ISV's updated code had assumed that a transaction's combination
of parms had to be either 'this' or 'that' etc. but had overlooked that
it could also be 'other' - which when true caused the ISV's code to loop
On Sat, 10 May 2014 12:58:21 -0700, Ed Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
wrote:
FWIW, I don't think the source code for Program Products like ADRDSSU
was available even in the pre-OCO days.
Too long ago
I do however recall sitting down at a (very old) fiche reader in the computer
room at
Shane,
I had a few occurrences of looking at code that way. After looking at
a IFCEREP1 module I found a really bad code sequence (causing cpu
usage to sky rocket when running a specific report) The damn module
did a sequential table look up that was absolutely terrible. It
could have
On 10 May 2014 15:58, Ed Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com wrote:
FWIW, I don't think the source code for Program Products like ADRDSSU was
available even in the pre-OCO days.
Some IBM Program Products had source code available from the earliest
days. For example, the PL/I Optimizing compiler
On 8 May 2014 22:09, Mitch mitc...@aol.com wrote:
And for the likes of the larger ISVs, I would guess all of their product
source
code is in escrow and kept up to date. Maybe not so much for the mom and
pop software
companies, but the big ones, yes.
I think it's exactly the mom and pop ISVs
This has been an interesting thread. I rather like the escrow idea. For
smaller ISVs, I wonder if it would be helpful to integrate something like
git or subversion into their processing, with a secure (are there any?)
off site backup master. When a change is pushed to production, it would
update
For smaller ISVs, I wonder if it would be helpful to integrate something like
git or subversion into their processing, with a secure (are there any?)
off site backup master.
Why do you think this is an original idea? All ISVs deal with source code
management. Some use open source
W dniu 2014-05-09 13:35, John McKown pisze:
This has been an interesting thread. I rather like the escrow idea.
I consider it as useless.
- Unclear reason to do it. Why source code in escrow would help the
customer?
- No warranty the code is complete, well documented and up to date.
Without
Radoslaw Skorupka is right to emphasize that an escrow agreement is
not a panacea.
Such an agreement may be all but useless, but an able lawyer who
understands the software-development process can write one that is
useful in extremis.
Moreover, the availability of such agreements sometimes makes
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Bob Shannon bshan...@rocketsoftware.comwrote:
For smaller ISVs, I wonder if it would be helpful to integrate something
like git or subversion into their processing, with a secure (are there
any?) off site backup master.
Why do you think this is an original
John,
I like that idea. I don't know how the ‘business side’ would work. i.e.; the
money …unfortunately we all have to earn a living unless your rich, then I say
god bless you..We use SVN and I can test you for IBM Mainframe source its kinda
ok ..I don't think its SVN.
From:
-7535 Office
323-715-0595 Mobile
jo.skip.robin...@sce.com
From: John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU,
Date: 05/09/2014 07:37 AM
Subject:Re: Vendor Source Code
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
On Fri, May 9
In 00c101cf6b20$a7f2b3a0$f7d81ae0$@mcn.org, on 05/08/2014
at 05:50 PM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org said:
Many moons ago I wrote, as a contractor, a product for an
application software company and they ended up losing the source
code for the product (which they were selling as part of a
You could guess, but I'd recommend you don't. I don't believe it to be
true, no matter what they claim.
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Mitch mitc...@aol.com wrote:
Mark:
I absolutely agree. And for the likes of the larger ISVs, I would guess
all of their product source code is in escrow
Just to add to Mitch's comments.
I was one of the developers of the said software that was given to our
competitor.
We held the software in Escrow with Iron Mountain, The software was mainly
z/OS assembler source/macros with the SMPE build code, SMPE APAR/PTF code.
We would also package the
Thank you John
Sent from my iPhone
On May 9, 2014, at 10:15 AM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com wrote:
Radoslaw Skorupka is right to emphasize that an escrow agreement is
not a panacea.
Such an agreement may be all but useless, but an able lawyer who
understands the software-development
Yes ... but there is a problem of the third kind where having the
source code would have been useful, as follows:
1. An ISV supplies 'calculating' software (running in a separate
address space) to which CICS online 4GL transactions pass
parameters using cross-memory services. The
Dean,
I have worked for vendors that dealt with this. Typically, a contract addendum
or stipulation is added so that the vendor software is kept at a 3rd party site
in escrow.
Mitch McCluhan,
Legacy Modernization Consultant
www.lcmg.us
-Original Message-
From: Dno
On 5/8/2014 at 04:18 PM, Dno snipers5...@gmail.com wrote:
We're looking to purchase a sw product and our lawyers are looking at the t's
and c's to see if we can have the right to their source code. At my previous
job we did this for BMC, we kept it at IMAR. I guess I never understand why,
Thanks Mark, makes sense.
Dean
Sent from my iPhone
On May 8, 2014, at 4:58 PM, Mark Post mp...@suse.com wrote:
On 5/8/2014 at 04:18 PM, Dno snipers5...@gmail.com wrote:
We're looking to purchase a sw product and our lawyers are looking at the
t's
and c's to see if we can have the right
-
From: Dno snipers5...@gmail.com
To: IBM-MAIN IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Thu, May 8, 2014 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
Thanks Mark, makes sense.
Dean
Sent from my iPhone
On May 8, 2014, at 4:58 PM, Mark Post mp...@suse.com wrote:
On 5/8/2014 at 04:18 PM, Dno snipers5
The usual term for this is source code escrow. A third party holds the
code with a contract that says that if the vendor goes out of business or
fails in some way then you get the source code. The third party charges, and
so the vendor may charge you.
There are two or three HUGE problems with
Thank you Charles, this is very useful information. We discussed a couple of
the scenarios you describe, opting not to bother with this.
Dean
Sent from my iPhone
On May 8, 2014, at 6:31 PM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org wrote:
The usual term for this is source code escrow. A third party
On 5/8/2014 at 06:08 PM, Mitch mitc...@aol.com wrote:
Keep in mind, some ISV tools are proprietary and confidential code. If it
were not, competitors would gobble it up and duplicate the functionality,
hence, the need to keep it secure.
What makes you think I, or anyone else, didn't
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
On 5/8/2014 at 06:08 PM, Mitch mitc...@aol.com wrote:
Keep in mind, some ISV tools are proprietary and confidential code. If it
were not, competitors would gobble it up and duplicate the functionality,
hence, the need to keep it secure.
What makes you think I
Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Mitch
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
Charles,
My first question is this: how does your scenario differ from hiring a new
programmer and telling him he has
went bust (which we did not).
Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of zMan
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
What Charles said. In spades. I knew a vendor
] On
Behalf Of Mitch
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
Charles,
My first question is this: how does your scenario differ from hiring a
new
programmer and telling him he has to support an application that has been
around
may vary.
Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Mitch
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
Charles,
My first question is this: how does your
...@suse.com
To: IBM-MAIN IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Thu, May 8, 2014 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
On 5/8/2014 at 06:50 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
huh, does IBM permit you to buy source or CA ?
Source code escrow is not at all the same as buying the source code
Sometimes it not simple, especially if you can't provide an API to makes calls
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
On May 8, 2014, at 8:40 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:
Also +1 what Mark said. I've known of only a few cases (not that I claim
encyclopedic knowledge, but
Message-
From: Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org
To: IBM-MAIN IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Thu, May 8, 2014 5:45 pm
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
how does your scenario differ from hiring a new programmer and telling him
e has to support an application that has been around for years
Obviously
to the
point of having little benefit. Your mileage may vary.
Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Mitch
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code
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