Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Timothy Sipples
John Gilmore writes: >The enumeration of their possible deficiencies is thus not an argument >for eschewing [escrow] agreements. It is an argument for retaining >the services of able, appropriately experienced lawyers to draft them. I'd add that even the most experienced lawyers frequently need h

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
In , on 05/10/2014 at 10:38 PM, Ed Gould said: >I had a few occurrences of looking at code that way. After looking >at a IFCEREP1 module I found a really bad code sequence (causing >cpu usage to sky rocket when running a specific report) Yes, but at the Technion fixing stupid code[11] was a

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
In <3833201874748634.wa.ibmmaintpg.com...@listserv.ua.edu>, on 05/10/2014 at 06:00 PM, Shane Ginnane said: >I do however recall sitting down at a (very old) fiche reader in >the computer room at one time looking through the source for >IEBCOPY. Hard way to read code. I never had any trouble

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread John Gilmore
Joel, As I have tried to make clear, I think not. The law is imperfect like other institutions, but Dickens was quite wrong. It is not, or not always, an ass. In my view at any rate this discussion has exhausted itself in banalities, as is too often the case here. I will leave it to others to

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:11:30 -0500, Joel C. Ewing wrote: > >If escrow agreements are yet another area where the law and expensive >lawyers can't be relied on to produce the best common sense outcome, >then perhaps the more apt quote in this context would be "the law is an >ass". > Kenneth Arrow ax

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Joel C. Ewing
On 05/11/2014 11:34 AM, John Gilmore wrote: > The only element of novelty in the notion that "not all of the lawyers > in the world can foretell . . . " is its hyperbole. > > Justice Holmes long ago defined the law as "an informed guess as to > what the courts will enforce in given circumstances";

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread John Gilmore
The only element of novelty in the notion that "not all of the lawyers in the world can foretell . . . " is its hyperbole. Justice Holmes long ago defined the law as "an informed guess as to what the courts will enforce in given circumstances"; and this element of indeterminacy, larger in some are

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On Sun, 11 May 2014 00:57:05 -0400, Tony Harminc wrote: >On 10 May 2014 15:58, Ed Jaffe wrote: >> FWIW, I don't think the source code for Program Products like ADRDSSU was >> available even in the pre-OCO days. > >Some IBM Program Products had source code available from the earliest >days. For exa

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On Sat, 10 May 2014 15:03:11 -0500, John McKown wrote: > >Go Debian! >It installs from source. > Thereby validating it. VM (used to be?) that way. On Sat, 10 May 2014 22:38:01 -0500, Ed Gould wrote: > >I had a few occurrences of looking at code that way. After looking at >a IFCEREP1 module I foun

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Charles Mills
Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 10:54 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code In , on 05/09/2014 at 06:35 AM, John McKown said: >This has been an interesting thread. I rather like the escrow idea. I like it, but only if both sides have

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On Sat, 10 May 2014 14:01:56 -0400, John Gilmore wrote: > >Emphasis does, however, need to be placed on the pronoun 'someone'. >If this code had been available not just to someone but to all of us, >quite rapid progress might well have been made with a problem >perceived to be important to the comm

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
In , on 05/09/2014 at 06:35 AM, John McKown said: >This has been an interesting thread. I rather like the escrow idea. I like it, but only if both sides have had bankruptcy lawyers verify that the source code *will* be provided in a timely fashion when the agreement calls for it and that it w

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
In <536e84dd.8020...@phoenixsoftware.com>, on 05/10/2014 at 12:58 PM, Ed Jaffe said: >FWIW, I don't think the source code for Program Products like >ADRDSSU was available even in the pre-OCO days. All the program products that I used in those days came with feature codes for source at releas

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Ed Gould
Spoken like a ex lawyer. Ed On May 11, 2014, at 8:00 AM, John Gilmore wrote: All contracts, whether they be escrow agreements or prenuptial ones, vary in quality as a function of the talent, experience in a milieu, and knowledge of the lawyers who draft them. The enumeration of their possible

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread Charles Mills
than formerly. Consolidation, like in most industries? Or have customers decided that escrow is not worth the hassle? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Harminc Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 10:57 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTS

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-11 Thread John Gilmore
All contracts, whether they be escrow agreements or prenuptial ones, vary in quality as a function of the talent, experience in a milieu, and knowledge of the lawyers who draft them. The enumeration of their possible deficiencies is thus not an argument for eschewing [escrow] agreements. It is an

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Tony Harminc
On 8 May 2014 22:09, Mitch wrote: > And for the likes of the larger ISVs, I would guess all of their product > source >code is in escrow and kept up to date. Maybe not so much for the "mom and >pop" software >companies, but the big ones, yes. I think it's exactly the "mom and pop" ISVs that ar

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Tony Harminc
On 10 May 2014 15:58, Ed Jaffe wrote: > FWIW, I don't think the source code for Program Products like ADRDSSU was > available even in the pre-OCO days. Some IBM Program Products had source code available from the earliest days. For example, the PL/I Optimizing compiler had source code that was si

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Ed Gould
Shane, I had a few occurrences of looking at code that way. After looking at a IFCEREP1 module I found a really bad code sequence (causing cpu usage to sky rocket when running a specific report) The damn module did a sequential table look up that was absolutely terrible. It could have be

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Shane Ginnane
On Sat, 10 May 2014 12:58:21 -0700, Ed Jaffe wrote: >FWIW, I don't think the source code for Program Products like ADRDSSU >was available even in the pre-OCO days. Too long ago I do however recall sitting down at a (very old) fiche reader in the computer room at one time looking through t

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Robert A. Rosenberg
At 07:18 +0100 on 05/10/2014, CM Poncelet wrote about Re: Vendor Source Code: No, the ISV's updated code had assumed that a transaction's combination of parms had to be either 'this' or 'that' etc. but had overlooked that it could also be 'other' - which

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread John McKown
:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of John Gilmore > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 7:16 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code > > Radoslaw Skorupka is right to emphasize that an escrow agreement is not a > panacea. > > Such an agreement

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Ed Jaffe
On 5/10/2014 11:01 AM, John Gilmore wrote: Emphasis does, however, need to be placed on the pronoun 'someone'. If this code had been available not just to someone but to all of us, quite rapid progress might well have been made with a problem perceived to be important to the community. Undoubte

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Duffy Nightingale
, typically drop support and many sites end up with nothing Duffy Nightingale -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Gilmore Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 7:16 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread John Gilmore
EJ wrote: I never asked for (and IBM never offered me) a copy of the ADRDSSU source code and, though I believe myself to be an excellent diagnostician, in all honesty it's unrealistic to believe I could have solved this any faster by myself, even if IBM had given me full access. The learning curv

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Ed Jaffe
On 5/9/2014 6:51 PM, CM Poncelet wrote: So there is a "third kind" of problem when an ISV cannot fix yet will not release its code and the ISV has not 'gone bust', because its source code in escrow cannot then be accessed either. My worst experience of this kind was the ADRDSSU CONSOLIDATE bug

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Scott Ford
Working for a Major ISV, I experienced a dispute . A former employee accused the vendor of stealing his code. He didn't read the fine print in his NDA...any code developed was the vendors Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD > On May 10, 2014, at 10:44 AM, "David L. Craig" wrote: >

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread David L. Craig
On 14May10:1036-0400, David L. Craig wrote: > > The Chinese would appreciate the one-stop shopping for its ISV > industrial espionage, certainly. Actually, the Federal government already has such a facility under DNA.probably. This might be an opportunity to set up a nasty honeypot with doctored

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread David L. Craig
On 14May09:0635-0500, John McKown wrote: > > Say! Here's a neat sleep-deprived idea: In the above scenario, keep the > offsite repository in the NSA ultra-center in Utah! This would require a > "commercial" aspect to the NSA. But they're going to intercept and store > the information any way if it

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-10 Thread Scott Ford
Not an easy problem to find Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD > On May 10, 2014, at 2:18 AM, CM Poncelet wrote: > > No, the ISV's updated code had assumed that a transaction's combination of > parms had to be either 'this' or 'that' etc. but had overlooked that it could > also

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread CM Poncelet
No, the ISV's updated code had assumed that a transaction's combination of parms had to be either 'this' or 'that' etc. but had overlooked that it could also be 'other' - which when true caused the ISV's code to loop back and try again, forever ... and the online systems then froze because they

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread Scott Ford
What a random 1 byte overlay anywhere in storage? Collected on a bet on what it was Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD > On May 9, 2014, at 9:51 PM, CM Poncelet wrote: > > Yes ... but there is a problem "of the third kind" where having the source > code would have been usef

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread CM Poncelet
Yes ... but there is a problem "of the third kind" where having the source code would have been useful, as follows: 1. An ISV supplies 'calculating' software (running in a separate address space) to which CICS online 4GL transactions pass parameters using cross-memory services. The I

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread Dno
Thank you John Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2014, at 10:15 AM, John Gilmore wrote: > > Radoslaw Skorupka is right to emphasize that an escrow agreement is > not a panacea. > > Such an agreement may be all but useless, but an able lawyer who > understands the software-development process can

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread Wayne Bickerdike
Just to add to Mitch's comments. I was one of the developers of the said software that was given to our competitor. We held the software in Escrow with Iron Mountain, The software was mainly z/OS assembler source/macros with the SMPE build code, SMPE APAR/PTF code. We would also package the Install

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread zMan
You could guess, but I'd recommend you don't. I don't believe it to be true, no matter what they claim. On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Mitch wrote: > Mark: > > I absolutely agree. And for the likes of the larger ISVs, I would guess > all of their product source code is in escrow and kept up

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
In <00c101cf6b20$a7f2b3a0$f7d81ae0$@mcn.org>, on 05/08/2014 at 05:50 PM, Charles Mills said: >Many moons ago I wrote, as a contractor, a product for an >application software company and they ended up losing the source >code for the product (which they were selling as part of a very >large a

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread Skip Robinson
er 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile jo.skip.robin...@sce.com From: John McKown To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, Date: 05/09/2014 07:37 AM Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Bob Shannon wrote

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread Scott Ford
John, I like that idea. I don't know how the ‘business side’ would work. i.e.; the money …unfortunately we all have to earn a living unless your rich, then I say god bless you..We use SVN and I can test you for IBM Mainframe source its kinda ok ..I don't think its SVN. From: john.archie.

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread John McKown
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Bob Shannon wrote: > > For smaller ISVs, I wonder if it would be helpful to integrate something > like "git" or "subversion" into their processing, with a secure (are there > any?) "off site" backup master. > > Why do you think this is an original idea? All ISVs de

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread John Gilmore
Radoslaw Skorupka is right to emphasize that an escrow agreement is not a panacea. Such an agreement may be all but useless, but an able lawyer who understands the software-development process can write one that is useful in extremis. Moreover, the availability of such agreements sometimes makes

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread R.S.
W dniu 2014-05-09 13:35, John McKown pisze: This has been an interesting thread. I rather like the escrow idea. I consider it as useless. - Unclear reason to do it. Why source code in escrow would help the customer? - No warranty the code is complete, well documented and up to date. Without it

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread Bob Shannon
> For smaller ISVs, I wonder if it would be helpful to integrate something like > "git" or "subversion" into their processing, with a secure (are there any?) > "off site" backup master. Why do you think this is an original idea? All ISVs deal with source code management. Some use open source

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-09 Thread John McKown
This has been an interesting thread. I rather like the escrow idea. For smaller ISVs, I wonder if it would be helpful to integrate something like "git" or "subversion" into their processing, with a secure (are there any?) "off site" backup master. When a change is pushed to production, it would upd

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Scott Ford
gt; >> Escrow may work in certain circumstances. I think it is problematic to the >> point of having little benefit. Your mileage may vary. >> >> Charles >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTS

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mitch
Message- From: Charles Mills To: IBM-MAIN Sent: Thu, May 8, 2014 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code > how does your scenario differ from hiring a new programmer and telling him e has to support an application that has been around for years Obviously we could invent hypothetical scenar

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Scott Ford
Sometimes it not simple, especially if you can't provide an API to makes calls Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD > On May 8, 2014, at 8:40 PM, zMan wrote: > > Also +1 what Mark said. I've known of only a few cases (not that I claim > encyclopedic knowledge, but I mean "across a d

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mitch
k Post To: IBM-MAIN Sent: Thu, May 8, 2014 5:15 pm Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code >>> On 5/8/2014 at 06:50 PM, Scott Ford wrote: huh, does IBM permit you to buy source or CA ? Source code escrow is not at all the same as buying the source code from a endor. I would be wil

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Scott Ford
tical processing is still waiting on a bug fix.) > > Escrow may work in certain circumstances. I think it is problematic to the > point of having little benefit. Your mileage may vary. > > Charles > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IB

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread zMan
mstances. I think it is problematic to the > point of having little benefit. Your mileage may vary. > > Charles > > -Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Mitch > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:12 PM >

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Charles Mills
eed John a job after we went bust (which we did not). Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of zMan Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:37 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code What Charles said.

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Charles Mills
ge may vary. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mitch Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 5:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code Charles, My first question is this: how does your scenario

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread zMan
Also +1 what Mark said. I've known of only a few cases (not that I claim encyclopedic knowledge, but I mean "across a dozen or so vendors and thus a few thousand mainframe customers") where vendors were forced to give up source code to specific customers. In most cases, the only thing vendors are w

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread zMan
What Charles said. In spades. I knew a vendor who had a product that they kept writing binary patches for, because while they had the source code, they'd lost the build process (knowledge departed with a developer). And before anyone blames the vendor, it was a minor product and the loss occurred b

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mark Post
>>> On 5/8/2014 at 06:50 PM, Scott Ford wrote: > huh, does IBM permit you to buy source or CA ? Source code escrow is not at all the same as buying the source code from a vendor. I would be willing to bet that at least some of IBM's and CA's larger customers have some source code in escro

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mitch
2014 3:32 pm Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code The usual term for this is "source code escrow." A third party holds the ode with a contract that says that if the vendor goes out of business or ails in some way then you get the source code. The third party charges, and o the vendor may char

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mitch
Mark, I am very confident you did already understand that. What I was trying to emphasize was the open source is apples and oranges. I meant no disrespect. Mitch -Original Message- From: Mark Post To: IBM-MAIN Sent: Thu, May 8, 2014 4:41 pm Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mark Post
>>> On 5/8/2014 at 06:08 PM, Mitch wrote: > Keep in mind, some ISV tools are proprietary and confidential code. If it > were not, competitors would gobble it up and duplicate the functionality, > hence, the need to keep it secure. What makes you think I, or anyone else, didn't already unders

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Dno
Thank you Charles, this is very useful information. We discussed a couple of the scenarios you describe, opting not to bother with this. Dean Sent from my iPhone > On May 8, 2014, at 6:31 PM, Charles Mills wrote: > > The usual term for this is "source code escrow." A third party holds the > c

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Scott Ford
huh, does IBM permit you to buy source or CA ? Yeah I have strong feelings about this …seen the after effects and it aint pretty From: Mark Post Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎May‎ ‎8‎, ‎2014 ‎4‎:‎58‎ ‎PM To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List >>> On 5/8/2014 at 04:18 PM, Dno wrote: > We're lo

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Charles Mills
The usual term for this is "source code escrow." A third party holds the code with a contract that says that if the vendor goes out of business or fails in some way then you get the source code. The third party charges, and so the vendor may charge you. There are two or three HUGE problems with so

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mitch
- From: Dno To: IBM-MAIN Sent: Thu, May 8, 2014 2:26 pm Subject: Re: Vendor Source Code Thanks Mark, makes sense. Dean Sent from my iPhone On May 8, 2014, at 4:58 PM, Mark Post wrote: >>>> On 5/8/2014 at 04:18 PM, Dno wrote: > We're looking to purchase a sw product

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Dno
Thanks Mark, makes sense. Dean Sent from my iPhone On May 8, 2014, at 4:58 PM, Mark Post wrote: On 5/8/2014 at 04:18 PM, Dno wrote: >> We're looking to purchase a sw product and our lawyers are looking at the >> t's >> and c's to see if we can have the right to their source code. At my

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mark Post
>>> On 5/8/2014 at 04:18 PM, Dno wrote: > We're looking to purchase a sw product and our lawyers are looking at the t's > and c's to see if we can have the right to their source code. At my previous > job we did this for BMC, we kept it at IMAR. I guess I never understand why, > so I'm asking

Re: Vendor Source Code

2014-05-08 Thread Mitch
Dean, I have worked for vendors that dealt with this. Typically, a contract addendum or stipulation is added so that the vendor software is kept at a 3rd party site in escrow. Mitch McCluhan, Legacy Modernization Consultant www.lcmg.us -Original Message- From: Dno To: IBM-MAIN Sen